Dedicated to all those 2007-W ASE Unc PCGS MS69 First Striker's

Goldbully · August 25, 2007 12:17PM

I must confess.

I'm a member in this first strike club.

And to think I had a subscription to purchase 100 of these silvery angels.

Instead, I ended up buying 10 of these lovely silver Uncs.(they really looked perfect to my untrained eye)

Net result?.......10 coins submitted..............10 coins graded MS69.

But alas, they are "First Strke!!!!!!" ..."All is not lost!"

Then, tonight I check the latest eBay auction for said modern FS collectible.

Link

Link 2

Let's see....I paid $22.50/coin + $14 Grading + 10 FS + $2 S&H = $48.50

Ten times $48.50 = $485

I could have bought same coins on eBay for anywhere between $32 and $39 or ~$350

This was not a smart deal on my part.

I should have listened to Russ!!!!!

My condolences to those that purchased larger lots.......Without at least one MS 70 per 10 coins....you were a big loser!!!!

Rarity · August 25, 2007 4:40PM

Thanks for sharing. I didn't know that grading fee for a $22 coin is $14 (~60% of cost)

TrustNo1 · August 25, 2007 4:52PM

FS and MS 70 is a foolish chase unless you just want the sale $

Bochiman · August 25, 2007 4:54PM

The grading fee for a $0.01 coin is also $14

(Modern pricing....doesn't matter cost of the coin)

GB....did you get 100 (your subscription) and only keep 10 (you say you bought 10) and send back 90?
If so, I don't have sympathy, sorry.

For the 10 you sent in, did you pre-screen being super attentive to anything that might cause someone to think it was less than perfect? If so, looks like you missed something...learning opp. I opened 10 (bought about 25 and kept all, still have 15 unopened) and sold a couple raw to someone needing them (local) and only sent in 4 of what was left. 2 got MS70, 2 got MS69. Others are also showing better luck with carefully prescreened coins.

Do you have any MS70 coins to compare to? Wanna buy one?

That all said.....you are right, if you don't get a 70 on the modern bullion SAEs, it really isn't worth sending in. Many bulk submitters only make money on the 70s and blow out the 69s for cost (or less) which depresses the market (they just want the money back to move on quickly....they don't care about the market as a whole).

So, if you are just a casual collector, and want them for your collection, and go after 69 versus 70, then just wait for a month or two after release and buy on the cheap.

Gemineye · August 26, 2007 12:25AM

<< 

So, if you are just a casual collector, and want them for your collection, and go after 69 versus 70, then just wait for a month or two after release and buy on the cheap. >>

Even a smart collector....one who doesn't care about the First Strike™ ..label..

Goldbully · August 26, 2007 12:39AM

<< The grading fee for a $0.01 coin is also $14

(Modern pricing....doesn't matter cost of the coin)

GB....did you get 100 (your subscription) and only keep 10 (you say you bought 10) and send back 90?
If so, I don't have sympathy, sorry.

For the 10 you sent in, did you pre-screen being super attentive to anything that might cause someone to think it was less than perfect? If so, looks like you missed something...learning opp. I opened 10 (bought about 25 and kept all, still have 15 unopened) and sold a couple raw to someone needing them (local) and only sent in 4 of what was left. 2 got MS70, 2 got MS69. Others are also showing better luck with carefully prescreened coins.

Do you have any MS70 coins to compare to? Wanna buy one?

That all said.....you are right, if you don't get a 70 on the modern bullion SAEs, it really isn't worth sending in. Many bulk submitters only make money on the 70s and blow out the 69s for cost (or less) which depresses the market (they just want the money back to move on quickly....they don't care about the market as a whole).

So, if you are just a casual collector, and want them for your collection, and go after 69 versus 70, then just wait for a month or two after release and buy on the cheap. >>

Boch,

I changed my subscription to 10 pcs. from 100 pcs.(now you can show your sympathy....LOL!)

And yes, I checked them over pretty good.

Not sure what I missed, but I missed for sure.

Guess I need a loupe better than 10x

My 10 ASE's will make nice stocking stuffers around Christmas time!!!!

Joflax · August 26, 2007 1:04AM

The same applies to the 07w gold eagles , they are sellling for about the same graded ms69 as they are selling raw from the mint.
PCGS and NGC have killed the ms69 market by grading so many as ms70

FLBuffaloHunter · August 26, 2007 1:25AM

<< The same applies to the 07w gold eagles , they are sellling for about the same graded ms69 as they are selling raw from the mint.
PCGS and NGC have killed the ms69 market by grading so many as ms70 >>

Less than 5% of the $50 AGE have been graded MS70 by PCGS. The pop shows the quality of these modern issues is exceptional. One can safely expect at least a MS69 when ordering from the Mint for the issue price, leaving little incentive for paying a premium for a graded MS69 in the aftermarket when they are still available from the Mint.

Joflax · August 26, 2007 1:57AM

Those look like they are not "w" population numbers , the "w"s have over a 20% ms70 so the 69s have no premium over mint price....It also means that sales of the gold "w" are down at the mint this year . If you buy 100 then only 20% will recoup their grading fees. The rest are worth only bullion value

FLBuffaloHunter · August 26, 2007 2:12AM

My bad. Those are the the pop figures for the bullion non-W issues. Though I suspect quality will remain at least at the MS69 level which is why the pricing on these in the aftermarket is about the same as the issue price given they are still available from the Mint. What is the coin number for the W AGE?

OPA · August 26, 2007 2:22AM

<< My bad. Those are the the pop figures for the bullion non-W issues. Though I suspect quality will remain at least at the MS69 level which is why the pricing on these in the aftermarket is about the same as the issue price given they are still available from the Mint. What is the coin number for the W AGE? >>

FLBuffaloHunter · August 26, 2007 2:31AM

For the 2007-W ASE the MS70 percentage is less than 10%. With less than 0.5% grading less than MS69.

Bochiman · August 26, 2007 3:19AM

Ok, GB, you have some of my sympathy now

I would suggest just a 5x or 10x loupe (which is sounds like you have anyway) and to really tilt the coin in the light while looking at it.
They have knocked a few of mine down, in the past, for imaginary "spots" in the skirt (not milk spots btw) that are almost impossible to see 99 out of 100 times.

I look for any "sparklies" or small ticks. Anything I see that isn't perfect, I don't send.

ricko · August 26, 2007 3:45AM

Bochi.. you are right about the 'sparkles'... I have seen that on several ASE's... tilting the coin in a good light (no loupe needed) will show these every time. Looks perfect otherwise... Cheers, RickO

notwilight · August 26, 2007 3:53AM

<< MS 70 is a foolish chase $ >>

Every onece in a while I have to challenge one of these comments. So if MS 70 is foolish is paying extra for a 1 pt upgrade from 64 to 65 on a morgan foolish? --jerry

Hugegut · August 26, 2007 4:12AM

This is a good argument for lowering the price for modern grading. When the 08-w's come around I wonder how many people will be submitting them with the lessons of 07 still fresh in their head. Moderns are easier to grade anyway. There's no fakes, altered surfaces, AT, thumbing etc to worry about with coins fresh from the mint. Much less expertise needed for grading these. $10 regular and $5 in bulk would work nicely and keep submissions up in 08.

Texast · August 26, 2007 4:20AM

<< MS 70 is a foolish chase $ >>

Not for PCGS, using their own fee structure this amounts to over $580,000.00 in grading fee's that they did not lose out on over the issue of a few milk spots that might show up later.

planetsteve · August 26, 2007 4:22AM

What quantity does it take for PCGS to lower the Modern+FS grading fees down from $24?

I looked through 150, submitted the 5 best and kept 2 raw for myself. Two of the five were 70s. I ended up making a little over $100 on the whole project after ebaying and shipping everything, including the 143 returns. (I sold my 69s for $28 each btw.) That certainly pushes the edge of what my time is worth, though the two keepers are an added bonus.

Now I have a better idea of what to look for and to get it done faster. Next year I'll order a thousand.

OPA · August 26, 2007 4:24AM

<< Bochi.. you are right about the 'sparkles'... I have seen that on several ASE's... tilting the coin in a good light (no loupe needed) will show these every time. Looks perfect otherwise... Cheers, RickO >>

Even w/o sparkles or ticks, the coin cannot have a "washout" appearance...(slightly grayer silver areas...mostly on the reverse) I suspect is from the "rinse."

ilikebuffaloes · August 26, 2007 4:24AM

<< 

<< MS 70 is a foolish chase $ >>

Every onece in a while I have to challenge one of these comments. So if MS 70 is foolish is paying extra for a 1 pt upgrade from 64 to 65 on a morgan foolish? --jerry >>

I agree. I also don't think you see many cracking out a modern 69, dipping it and then sending it back and then complaining because they didn't get the big $$$ for the 1 point bump.

TrustNo1 · August 26, 2007 4:30AM

<< 

<< MS 70 is a foolish chase $ >>

Every onece in a while I have to challenge one of these comments. So if MS 70 is foolish is paying extra for a 1 pt upgrade from 64 to 65 on a morgan foolish? --jerry >>

I am not talking about Morgans. Did I say Morgans? Check the thread title.

Goldbully · August 26, 2007 4:31AM

<< What quantity does it take for PCGS to lower the Modern+FS grading fees down from $24?

I looked through 150, submitted the 5 best and kept 2 raw for myself. Two of the five were 70s. I ended up making a little over $100 on the whole project after ebaying and shipping everything, including the 143 returns. (I sold my 69s for $28 each btw.) That certainly pushes the edge of what my time is worth, though the two keepers are an added bonus.

Now I have a better idea of what to look for and to get it done faster. Next year I'll order a thousand.

>>

Boy, you worked your butt off for that little payday.

You really sent back 143 coins???

Wow, didn't FLBuffaloHunter say that's a no no???.....something like having a negative Buy/Return ratio with the Mint.

Bochiman · August 26, 2007 4:33AM

<< What quantity does it take for PCGS to lower the Modern+FS grading fees down from $24?

I looked through 150, submitted the 5 best and kept 2 raw for myself. Two of the five were 70s. I ended up making a little over $100 on the whole project after ebaying and shipping everything, including the 143 returns. (I sold my 69s for $28 each btw.) That certainly pushes the edge of what my time is worth, though the two keepers are an added bonus.

Now I have a better idea of what to look for and to get it done faster. Next year I'll order a thousand.

>>

So, just so there is no misunderstanding, are you stating that you got 150 from the mint, kept the 7 you wanted, and returned the other 143 to the mint for a refund?
If so, you are the type that abuses the system and I have no sympathy for you.

Goldbully · August 26, 2007 4:42AM

<< Ok, GB, you have some of my sympathy now

I would suggest just a 5x or 10x loupe (which is sounds like you have anyway) and to really tilt the coin in the light while looking at it.
They have knocked a few of mine down, in the past, for imaginary "spots" in the skirt (not milk spots btw) that are almost impossible to see 99 out of 100 times.

I look for any "sparklies" or small ticks. Anything I see that isn't perfect, I don't send. >>

Thanks Boch,

I will keep my eye out for those nasty "Sparklies!"

planetsteve · August 26, 2007 4:56AM

I'm not looking for any sympathy at all -- it really wasn't a negative experience. As for the return of 143 coins, that was certainly within the letter of the Mint's policy, and perhaps even with what seems to be the spirit of a 30-day return privilege that actually has a checkbox for "changed my mind." It's their policy, and if their product was more consistent with the highest numismatic standards, I would have kept many more. (I suppose I could have checked "defective product" with an explanation of the luster problems and tick marks.)

Unless I do hear from the Mint that they feel I am abusing their system (and I'll let you all know), I'm not seeing the problem. Those who got my "recycled" coins got carefully handled boxes and airtite-sealed bullion coins.

cullenbryant · August 26, 2007 5:12AM

if people want to pay the extra for ms70 then good for them. i happen to believe it's one of the
most precarious long term investments in the hobby. not only does it rely on the coin for it's merits, it
relies on the whims, rises and falls of a particular grading company.

i also think it's total bs to buy 150 coins and pick out 7 and send the rest back, when the rest were of
good as advertised quality. the cost of your escapades are ultimately factored into the cost of future
mint issues for the rest of us. and now your gonna order a thousand next time?

Goldbully · August 26, 2007 6:13AM

<< if people want to pay the extra for ms70 then good for them. i happen to believe it's one of the
most precarious long term investments in the hobby. not only does it rely on the coin for it's merits, it
relies on the whims, rises and falls of a particular grading company.

i also think it's total bs to buy 150 coins and pick out 7 and send the rest back, when the rest were of
good as advertised quality. the cost of your escapades are ultimately factored into the cost of future
mint issues for the rest of us. and now your gonna order a thousand next time?

>>

I totally agree with you Cullen B.

I think Planetsteve is really stretching the Mint's return policy beyond it's normal capabilities.

1. Should we assume that the mint will re-cycle his coins and sell them to new buyers?

2. Or, is it possible they go back into the silver melting pot and begin anew??

I got to believe it's the former.

TrustNo1 · August 26, 2007 7:54AM

<< if people want to pay the extra for ms70 then good for them. i happen to believe it's one of the
most precarious long term investments in the hobby. not only does it rely on the coin for it's merits, it
relies on the whims, rises and falls of a particular grading company.

i also think it's total bs to buy 150 coins and pick out 7 and send the rest back, when the rest were of
good as advertised quality. the cost of your escapades are ultimately factored into the cost of future
mint issues for the rest of us. and now your gonna order a thousand next time?

>>

morgansforever · August 26, 2007 8:10AM

Gold Bully I can relate to your experience. Bought 50 07W's from the Slaughter House, narrowed it down to 10, then down to 7.

Hours spent cherry picking, just to get back 69's from across the street.

I don't think NGC even looked at them.

I just bought a PCGS FS MS70 07W, at least it's guarenteed that it will arrive as a 70.

pf70collector · August 26, 2007 10:01AM

I have a 132 in unopened boxes. All first strike. I will keep these for a few years I guess. I don't see the point in submitting these now. The 07 will most likely surpass the 06 W in mintage. Unless there are a lot of returns of the worst coins to the mint. The uncirculated dollar set will push the mintage way up now.

djdilliodon · August 26, 2007 10:54AM

I bought 100 2007 W eagles before people would start getting return happy. I hand picked 31 perfect senders. Looked at all of them with a loupe and a nice desk light. I sent them to pcgs and only got 1 70. If you ask me i dont care how many you send or how hard you look they just simply wont give out the 70 grades on these coins. Why? Cause they are covering there butt should the coins milk spot down the line. I have a good mind to crack these coins out and send them to NGC but i have already to much invested so ill just take the hit and move on. Will i ever send any to PCGS in the future, no way lol. Oh and as a i side note i did the same thing with the 2006 W eagles and only 2 of the 28 i sent to NGC came back 69.

FLBuffaloHunter · August 26, 2007 11:21AM

NGC 2007-W MS70 percentage is 20%. The downside being NGC ASE sell for less than comaprable coins in the PCGS plastic.

Goldbully · August 26, 2007 11:41AM

<< Gold Bully I can relate to your experience. Bought 50 07W's from the Slaughter House, narrowed it down to 10, then down to 7.

Hours spent cherry picking, just to get back 69's from across the street.

I don't think NGC even looked at them.

I just bought a PCGS FS MS70 07W, at least it's guarenteed that it will arrive as a 70. >>

Morgans,

Amen Brother.

There is really no rhyme or reason as to what constitutes a PCGS MS70 IMHO.

After reading what others have said, I think even sending in your cherry-picked ASE Unc's is no guarantee your DD will be rewarded.

I'd love to see the "Official PCGS ASE Grading Criteria."

Do they really look for those Bochiman "sparklies?"

Do they try to hold a 10%+ MS70 grading return??

Why in the world would NGC, one of the "TOP TWO" have a 20% MS70 return as per FLBuffalo psot?????

In essence, PCGS says 1 in 10 coins are perfect, and NGC says 2 in 10 are perfect.

Where's the sage Bear when you need him????

Moderncrap is right, modern crap is crap.

Dedicated to all those 2007-W ASE Unc PCGS MS69 First Striker's

Comments

Leave a Comment