Madness = Milkspots! (my first milk spot)

ChrisRx · August 3, 2007 5:15AM

What a sad day! I have heard and seen pictures of milkspots, but not on my coins! (until now) *sigh*
Has anyone found out (definitively) what causes them and what we can do to prevent them?
So here is my PF70 sporting the milk.

Cladiator · August 3, 2007 5:17AM

Good luck ever trying to sell that now. I'd send it to PCGS for their garauntee and make them pay you retail value for it.

OPA · August 3, 2007 5:19AM

<< Good luck ever trying to sell that now. I'd send it to PCGS for their garauntee and make them pay you retail value for it. >>

Send an NGC holder to PCGS?

MadMarty · August 3, 2007 5:19AM

<< Good luck ever trying to sell that now. I'd send it to PCGS for their garauntee and make them pay you retail value for it. >>

Pssssst, it's an NGC slabbed coin!!!

Cladiator · August 3, 2007 5:19AM

<< 

<< Good luck ever trying to sell that now. I'd send it to PCGS for their garauntee and make them pay you retail value for it. >>

Send an NGC holder to PCGS? >>

Woops, I meant NGC.

19Lyds · August 3, 2007 5:19AM

<< Good luck ever trying to sell that now. I'd send it to PCGS for their garauntee and make them pay you retail value for it. >>

Good Luck on Sending an NGC slab to PCGS for the PCGS guarantee.

That is an NGC coin right?

19Lyds · August 3, 2007 5:20AM

Jeez you guys are fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Russ · August 3, 2007 5:20AM

Russ, NCNE

57loaded · August 3, 2007 5:21AM

<< 

<< Good luck ever trying to sell that now. I'd send it to PCGS for their garauntee and make them pay you retail value for it. >>

Send an NGC holder to PCGS? >>

yeah...try it and see!

Cladiator · August 3, 2007 5:21AM

Letters wrong or right my original point stands. That coin will sell for a fraction of what it would without the milkspot and no way it's a "70" now. Send it back, make them pay you the money so you're whole again.

MadMarty · August 3, 2007 5:22AM

<< <Crocodile Dundee voice>That's not a milk spot, THIS is a milk spot.<Crocodile Dundee voice>

Russ, NCNE >>

<< <Crocodile Dundee voice>That's not a milk spot, THIS is a milk spot.<Crocodile Dundee voice> >>

Russ · August 3, 2007 5:24AM

<< That coin will sell for a fraction of what it would without the milkspot and no way it's a "70" now. >>

It's NGC. Wouldn't sell for much even without the spot.

Russ, NCNE

Cladiator · August 3, 2007 5:24AM

<< 

<< That coin will sell for a fraction of what it would without the milkspot and no way it's a "70" now. >>

It's NGC. Wouldn't sell for much even without the spot.

Russ, NCNE >>

An NGC 70 would sell for a hell of a lot more than an NGC milkspotted 70.

MadMarty · August 3, 2007 5:25AM

<< 

<< That coin will sell for a fraction of what it would without the milkspot and no way it's a "70" now. >>

It's NGC. Wouldn't sell for much even without the spot.

Russ, NCNE >>

Ouch, that's going to leave a mark!!!

19Lyds · August 3, 2007 5:26AM

<< <Crocodile Dundee voice>That's not a milk spot, THIS is a milk spot.<Crocodile Dundee voice>

Russ, NCNE >>

That looks more like milk dribble than just milk spot!

Type2 · August 3, 2007 5:27AM

So if you wait long enough it my cover the coin and you will have a milk spot tone coin.

Russ · August 3, 2007 5:27AM

<< << That coin will sell for a fraction of what it would without the milkspot and no way it's a "70" now. >>

It's NGC. Wouldn't sell for much even without the spot.

Russ, NCNE >>

An NGC 70 would sell for a hell of a lot more than an NGC milkspotted 70. >>

Maybe twenty bucks difference.

Russ, NCNE

ChrisRx · August 3, 2007 5:28AM

So can anyone tell me what to do to prevent some more happening on my other coins!???

Type2 · August 3, 2007 5:34AM

Don't buy Silver Eagles.

No some silver Eagles my get them or may not no one know just the chance we all take with collecting them.

ChrisRx · August 3, 2007 5:41AM

So its the coin itsself not necessarily the environment?
I can take the loss, but...
Makes me want to NEVER "invest" in the 1995-w

tahoe98 · August 3, 2007 5:42AM

i'll be watching with you on the answer to that!!!

Cladiator · August 3, 2007 5:43AM

<< So its the coin itsself not necessarily the environment?
I can take the loss, but...
Makes me want to NEVER "invest" in the 1995-w >>

If your intent with ASE's is to invest simply buy them raw by the roll.

Russ · August 3, 2007 5:44AM

<< Makes me want to NEVER "invest" in the 1995-w >>

If milk spots are going to develop they will usually do so within a year or two, so a 1995-W is probably pretty safe.

Russ, NCNE

tahoe98 · August 3, 2007 5:46AM

<< <Crocodile Dundee voice>That's not a milk spot, THIS is a milk spot.<Crocodile Dundee voice>

Russ, NCNE >>

russ,that looks more like pigeon poop!

ChrisRx · August 3, 2007 5:49AM

Thanks Russ. Yes, I bought this one right when it came out. From now on I better buy em AFTER a few years (for a higher premium) *sigh*

Russ · August 3, 2007 5:58AM

If it makes you feel any better, this is a problem collectors of late 50's and early 60's proofs have been dealing with for a long time.

Russ, NCNE

Russ · August 3, 2007 5:59AM

Here's another example:

That coin was pristine when it went in for grading.

Russ, NCNE

ricko · August 3, 2007 6:03AM

Nasty break.... I surely wish some of the experts here would investigate this.. scientifically... once the root cause is identified, solutions can be determined. Cheers, RickO

fcloud · August 3, 2007 6:07AM

Just wait until milkspots start showing up on all those ms70 silver eagles.

Russ · August 3, 2007 6:18AM

<< Nasty break.... I surely wish some of the experts here would investigate this.. scientifically... once the root cause is identified, solutions can be determined. >>

I provided the answer to Ron and PCGS quite some time ago. The spots develop because of hidden contaminants on some of the planchets. I used to have a terrible time with my proofs. I'd submit them, and some would develop spots a few months later. Once I started giving each coin a quick surface stabilizing dip before submission, the problem never happened again.

Russ, NCNE

PrivateCoinCollector · August 3, 2007 6:18AM

<< <Crocodile Dundee voice>That's not a milk spot, THIS is a milk spot.<Crocodile Dundee voice>

Russ, NCNE >>

Milk spot, huh?

HonoluluDude · August 3, 2007 6:20AM

<< Once I started giving each coin a quick surface stabilizing dip before submission, the problem never happened again.

Russ, NCNE >>

What would you suggest as far as a "surface stabilizing dip" goes?

ChrisRx · August 3, 2007 6:21AM

Tell me THESE aren't milkspots (from an eBay auction):

FLBuffaloHunter · August 3, 2007 6:40AM

From the ASE's I have seen and have researched, milkspots have a seeded particle in the center which reacts with the coin surface causing the surrounding spot to develop. What causes or how this particle appears on the coin surface is yet undetermined.

HonoluluDude · August 3, 2007 6:54AM

<< From the ASE's I have seen and have researched, milkspots have a seeded particle in the center which reacts with the coin surface causing the surrounding spot to develop. What causes or how this particle appears on the coin surface is yet undetermined.

>>

COOL. Maybe it's bellybutton lint.

Bajajim · August 3, 2007 7:09AM

<< 

<< <Crocodile Dundee voice>That's not a milk spot, THIS is a milk spot.<Crocodile Dundee voice>

Russ, NCNE >>

Milk spot, huh? >>

I won't even ask...

ricko · August 3, 2007 8:31AM

Hey Buffhunter.. those are interesting photos.... Russ, could your 'stabilizing dip' have removed/neutralized this 'seed' impurity? What was the 'secret sauce'?... Cheers, RickO

Type2 · August 3, 2007 12:30PM

<< 

<< Nasty break.... I surely wish some of the experts here would investigate this.. scientifically... once the root cause is identified, solutions can be determined. >>

I provided the answer to Ron and PCGS quite some time ago. The spots develop because of hidden contaminants on some of the planchets. I used to have a terrible time with my proofs. I'd submit them, and some would develop spots a few months later. Once I started giving each coin a quick surface stabilizing dip before submission, the problem never happened again.

Russ, NCNE >>

are you double dipping Russ.

BAJJERFAN · August 3, 2007 12:46PM

<< What was the 'secret sauce'?... Cheers, RickO >>

eZest. Whatever is in it apparently cleans the surfaces.

BAJJERFAN · August 3, 2007 1:06PM

Can someone please explain to me how or why PCGS or NGC has any liability for the development of these spots. Its not like a coin doctor is bulk submitting 10 rolls of ASE's that have been tooled, puttied, thumbed or otherwise messed with and its something that PCGS should have caught wind of.

blu62vette · August 3, 2007 1:19PM

<< Can someone please explain to me how or why PCGS or NGC has any liability for the development of these spots. Its not like a coin doctor is bulk submitting 10 rolls of ASE's that have been tooled, puttied, thumbed or otherwise messed with and its something that PCGS should have caught wind of. >>

I wonder the same thing. Say you submit a different coin and it tones ugly while in the slab, are they liable becuase the coin is now ugly? The grade may not be affected as much but value would. Is there a major difference between toning and a milkspot? Seems like a milkspot is just ugly toning to me.

FLBuffaloHunter · August 3, 2007 1:51PM

I think what causes the particle to appear determines the liability. If it is caused by contamination from improper handling while in a TPGS possesion, they should be liable. Some of the spots develop a few months after being slabbed. IMO milkspots are a result of contamination and are not toning. As no one has stated what causes the spots to form, they should qualify under the grade guarantee.

BAJJERFAN · August 3, 2007 2:13PM

Well the milk spots seem to be an equal opportunity aggressor in that they form on other than PCGS slabbed ASE's. If PCGS was aware some time back that dipping would indeed eliminate or greatly reduce the chances of spotting, then it would behoove them to dip a coin as SOP if it was going to get a 70. Of course dipping as a way to prevent milk spots was apparently conveyed to them and may not have been a direct result of their own testing, so they may not have been real quick/eager to adopt a policy which wasn't a result of their own development.

TrustNo1 · August 3, 2007 2:44PM

I've found some spots on Mint sealed Eagle sets like the Millenium and Legacies of Freedom sets

19Lyds · August 3, 2007 11:26PM

Yep, they certainly do develop on non-slabbed coins as two of my 1996's got trashed due to milk spotting. One came back a 67 and the other a 68. I tried dipping most of the contamination off before submitting but it was pretty much hopeless.

I've also seen this develop as milk "smears" on 1971-S 40% Business strike IKEs and a couple of 1972-S 40% coins. Some of it can be reduced by dipping but never completely removed.

Having them slabbed prior to "stabilization" seems to accelerate the milk spotting IMO so every silver coin I submit gets a little quickie before going off to the graders and I'm not ashamed to admit it!

I'm hoping my millenium Eagle survives though since that one cannot be touched prior to submission!

fcloud · August 3, 2007 11:54PM

<< Yep, they certainly do develop on non-slabbed coins as two of my 1996's got trashed due to milk spotting. One came back a 67 and the other a 68. I tried dipping most of the contamination off before submitting but it was pretty much hopeless.

I've also seen this develop as milk "smears" on 1971-S 40% Business strike IKEs and a couple of 1972-S 40% coins. Some of it can be reduced by dipping but never completely removed.

Having them slabbed prior to "stabilization" seems to accelerate the milk spotting IMO so every silver coin I submit gets a little quickie before going off to the graders and I'm not ashamed to admit it!

I'm hoping my millenium Eagle survives though since that one cannot be touched prior to submission! >>

What is your process for a quickie? Acetone or something else?

BAJJERFAN · August 4, 2007 12:28AM

<< Nasty break.... I surely wish some of the experts here would investigate this.. scientifically... once the root cause is identified, solutions can be determined. >>

In order to do that one would need COMPLETE disclosure from the mint [or whoever makes their planchets for them] in regards to how these are handled at the washing and rinsing and drying stages. Whats in the wash solution, how many rinses, stuff like that. IMO its probably just poor or careless handling of large quantities of planchets; its not like each one is given tons of TLC. If you are submitting proof or ms coins that do NOT require the package be unopened then I would do like Russ and dip them myself BEFORE I submitted them. In the case of the 20th Anniv ASE's I wish that PCGS would have offered the dipping service before holdering these as I likely would have requested it. Thats one reason I sold my reverse proof 70 right away as I didn't want to risk spotting. If you request dipping and the coin later spots then I can see how PCGS might have some liability; if a coin goes directly from a mint capsule and into a PCGS slab I say they are off the hook.

tahoe98 · August 4, 2007 1:43AM

I provided the answer to Ron and PCGS quite some time ago. The spots develop because of hidden contaminants on some of the planchets. I used to have a terrible time with my proofs. I'd submit them, and some would develop spots a few months later. Once I started giving each coin a quick surface stabilizing dip before submission, the problem never happened again.

Russ, NCNE >>

just wondering how one would explain the proofs in the mint holders and their spotting

BAJJERFAN · August 4, 2007 1:52AM

<< just wondering how one would explain the proofs in the mint holders and their spotting >>

Well they weren't dipped so they would be at the mercy of storage conditions; same as postulated for the spotting that has already taken place. The spotting seems to be correlated with storage conditions; the more humid the storing conditions, the more likely the chance to spot. Makes sense to me.

Type2 · August 4, 2007 3:27AM

<< From the ASE's I have seen and have researched, milkspots have a seeded particle in the center which reacts with the coin surface causing the surrounding spot to develop. What causes or how this particle appears on the coin surface is yet undetermined.

>>

So its like rust for silver? A long time ago I worked at a body shop doing custom work and paint one day a customer showed us his paint job. it was a white paint job but it hade little spots like milk spots. But we found out that when we where grading 2 bays over that the tiney pices of metal wher flying over and lading on the paint and it looked like the pic, so it is a pice of some metal in the planchet when mixed or when the capsel is opened it get's cantaminated.EZ fix dont buy silver coins.

BAJJERFAN · August 4, 2007 3:42AM

<< From the ASE's I have seen and have researched, milkspots have a seeded particle in the center which reacts with the coin surface causing the surrounding spot to develop. What causes or how this particle appears on the coin surface is yet undetermined.>.

That little center spot would be responsible for what is called nucleation or a starting nucleus for the milk spot. It could arise from almost anything, as its likely the air around the coin presses is hardly particle free.

Madness = Milkspots! (my first milk spot)

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