<< <i>your first strikes could very well be the last coins made during the run. my guess is just as good as yours. think about it. big carts full of coins being put into a corner in a room. more coins come in. more coins come in. >>
Could be but then it also might not happen that way!
I would imagine that the coins made in say, November, definitely wouldn't be First Strike™ but thats not to say that those that get there shipments early enough are NOT getting First Strike™. After all, there storage unit could be in onside and out the other couldn't it?
I just don't understand why everybody is so negative and critical and all knowing against those of us that like our First Strike™ slabs.
You guys really do not know how the mint packages and ships these.......................you only take your best negative shot at how you think its done.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I just don't understand why everybody is so negative and critical and all knowing against those of us that like our First Strike™ slabs. >>
Lee, maybe you could help us understand why you like the First Strike™ slab. What is it that you see in these coins (slabs) that is different from any other PCGS slabbed coin? I do believe that everyone should collect what they like. So if you like these, by all means collect them. Your frank reply to my question will be very helpful in our understanding the attraction.
I collect them just because they are there and thats about as frank as I can get.
I also collect a lot of stuff because I have this thing in me that says "Hey, you gotta have that!" Or "Wouldn't it be cool to have a complete set of those?"
You oughta see the collection of those bogus credit cards I have. You know the ones you get whenever you get solicited in the mail to sign up for this or that card? Well I've got quite a few of those for no intelligent reason other than I'm collecting them.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Lee, that's as good of answer as one can have. Thanks.
Much of the concern you see in this thread is well directed in that we do not want people collecting these First Strike™ believing that the coins have any special numismatic value. Earlier in this thread someone stated that they believed "First Strike" coins had better strikes than non First Strike coins. It simply is not true. Maybe the one he owns has a hammered strike, but it has nothing to do with a First Strike label.
You mentioned above that we do not know what the US Mint does. You are right, but we do know what the US Mint tells us they do. Here is a link to what they say about First Strikes, dies used, production times, and ship dates. Link First Strikes - Scroll Down
Excellent comments by the Mint ... thanks for that link.
19Lyds, imagine the following: suppose PCGS decided to arbitrarily put the word "Special" on every fiftieth or maybe one hundredth example certified of a particular modern issue such as P$1 or "Hags." Would you just HAVE to have a set of only "Special" coins? Would you pay extra for those "Special" coins? ... because that is basically what is happening here ...
I think the main problem a number of us, involved in this 'debate', have with the First Strike designation IS NOT that people want to collect them...it is the inherent falseness in the claim that the label represents...
Sure, PCGS now has a "new" definition on their website and "all of us" here on this forum "know what it really means"...but... we here may have a tendancy to forget that the vast majority of coin collectors DO NOT frequent this forum or this website.
One of the primary benefits originally touted for having coins graded and slabbed by a TPG was to enable "sight unseen" sales of coins. There are many folks who buy coins based on the information on the label...this may not be the wisest way to buy a coin...but it is done...
A new coin collector may see a PCGS label and have heard that PCGS could always be trusted...and it says "First Strike" on it... and they believe it...(will they read the "disclaimer" on the back of the holder or even understand it? I don't know...but there should not be a need for such a "disclaimer...just change the label to state the actual truth... "First Shipped" ... then there would be no potential for a problem with misrepresentation).
I will repeat this...and state it as plainly as I can...
If it is recognized by PCGS that these are really "First Shipped" then the 'honorable' thing to do would be to change the label to "First Shipped"...
Consider this...there are many folks here on the forum (and elsewhere) who like to collect Lincoln Cents. I, for one, find them boring...but I have no problem with anyone wishing to collect them. BUT, if folks started trying to promote them as the first American cent pieces ( but then in fine print, stated that they really mean that they are the first American cents with a President on them)...I WOULD have a problem with that...
...while this comparison may seem like a stretch...I do not think so...
And I do not think that anyone here is actually bashing anyone for wanting to collect First Strikes... it is the simple fact that the coins in the holders are not actually "First Strikes"...
...if you want to collect coins in holders that have labels on them that say "First Strike"...fine... collect them...enjoy them... BUT THEY ARE NOT FIRST STRIKE COINS... they are simply coins that are put in holders with labels that say "First Strike"...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Sunnywood, I understand what you are saying, but some people would answer yes.
Listen closely to a TV or radio commercial and you'll hear those soft words like better or improved etc. without them telling you what it is better than or how they improved it. Listen to a political commercial and you'll really hear a bunch of that! The vehicle that I drive says "Limited" on the side, but I know that it is not limited (actually with all of the options it should say loaded!).
Is this misleading? It can be. Because it is done all of the time it is accepted, but that doesn't make it right.
I'd keep playing. I don't think the heavy stuff will be coming down for quite a while!
...if you want to collect coins in holders that have labels on them that say "First Strike"...fine... collect them...enjoy them... BUT THEY ARE NOT FIRST STRIKE COINS... they are simply coins that are put in holders with labels that say "First Strike"... >>
Be careful what you say..the kool aid group might not approve of those remarks.....!!!!!!
Why PCGS continues to produce first strike slabs is beyond me.
It's called revenue-
If the first strike and early release designations were to dissappear collectors would adjust and not care much- the telemarketers and dealers who supply the telemarketers would be the biggest complainers because they all use these designations to justify charging more for these coins. This especially becomes a huge problem after the window for having the designations passes. I hear these stories all the time-it's just sad.
All these designations do is seperate unsuspecting buyers from their money . It will be interesting to see where the premiums on these coins are in a few years when the marketing programs are gone.
<< <i>your first strikes could very well be the last coins made during the run. my guess is just as good as yours. think about it. big carts full of coins being put into a corner in a room. more coins come in. more coins come in. >>
Could be but then it also might not happen that way!
I would imagine that the coins made in say, November, definitely wouldn't be First Strike™ but thats not to say that those that get there shipments early enough are NOT getting First Strike™. After all, there storage unit could be in onside and out the other couldn't it?
I just don't understand why everybody is so negative and critical and all knowing against those of us that like our First Strike™ slabs.
You guys really do not know how the mint packages and ships these.......................you only take your best negative shot at how you think its done. >>
You cannot possibly be serious. You are going to defend the bogus first strike designation by claiming that we don't know for sure when a coin was struck? That's the entire point of the argument AGAINST using first strike designations! Nobody knows when a particular coin is struck, shipping date be damned!
As for PCGS' little webpage about how they've redefined an established hobby term... to hell with that nonsense. It would be unacceptable for me or anyone to do this--what if I decided to sell Carson City morgan dollars and made some obscure webpage with the disclaimer: "these aren't really Carson City dollars, in fact they aren't even morgan dollars. They are Sacagaweas. By the way, Carson City morgan dollar is now a trademark of basestealer enterprises." Give me a break. It's NOT okay to dupe the naive collecting community at large by using an established, well-defined term such as "first strike" (even trademarking it, for god sake!) and then putting a disclaimer on the website stating that first strike really doesn't mean first strike, it's just our little label fun.
If people want to collect them, fine! But I can't believe some of the defenses I'm seeing. When someone does something wrong (PCGS in this case), it affects everyone. It affects the value of the collections that hold these items and the people that religiously buy them for whatever reason. The same as any garage slabbing company or investment scam that comes out of the woodwork. There's no fine line between clever marketing and outright swindel--it's black and white and the printing is all over those PCGS labels. The only solution that sits well with me is for PCGS to recall every first strike coin in existence, pay the going market rate at the peak of the hype, and reslab it accurately. And for those collectors that still hold on to the labels, announce that the coins in those holders to be invalid, uncertified, and without guarantee after a certain date.
IMO, the major TPGs have done a masterful marketing job of making many collectors feel like they have to collect not only coins, but also different slabs surrounding essentially identical coins.
That's all it is: a marketing idea from a market entity that has become so powerful that if they build it, the collectors will come, regardless of the true added value of what is being "built."
As far as I have seen, all new ms70 ASEs have been first strike only....No blue lable ms70.
According to the registry, there is now (1) 2006W ms70 (First strike) although last time I looked, there were only (3) - 2007W ms70 first strikes listed, over 40 sold this weekend alone on ebay.
It seems you only get ms70 if the coin is also First strike. That ought to keep first strike popular for awhile.
Travis
-------- Howdy from Houston...
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies Tongue tied and twisted Just an earthbound misfit, I
<< <i>It seems you only get ms70 if the coin is also First strike. That ought to keep first strike popular for awhile. >>
Can anyone else verify this? This points to a HUGE appearance of a conflict of interest if this is true and if it remains true... >>
The pops in the registry show different numbers for different labels....A 2006 W blue label ms69 shows one number (no pops higher) and a First strike ms69 2006 W shows another number (1 coin higher pop)...hence the 2006 w ms70 First strike.....(not shown in registry)
now check the few 2007 Ws listed....I am asumming all first strike, as blue lables have been hard to find....pop higher 3.
I am sure that it will change fast, like I said over 40 sold on ebay this weekend alone. I don't know how many ms70s they made.... may turn out to be very large number.....but I have not seen one blue lable 2007 w ms70 offered for sale.
Its a pain to go through the sets to find the info, but if you take the time it is all there.
Travis
-------- Howdy from Houston...
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies Tongue tied and twisted Just an earthbound misfit, I
<< <i>You cannot possibly be serious. You are going to defend the bogus first strike designation by claiming that we don't know for sure when a coin was struck? >>
I'm only defending my right to collect whatever I want as I get tired of this forum continually rehashing this dead issue!
PCGS slabs and labels bullion coins and now the Presidential Proofs as First Strike™. People buy them and people sell them. Get over it!
If you don't like it, take it up with David Hall or Ron Guth.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Tiger Woods is a swindler for advertising Nike™ All race car drivers should remove all sponsor's logos from their cars. NGC is cheating people by selling a slab with a "STAR *" ( that's an opinion, not a grade)
I know we won't all agree... but , how many of you who've posted in this thread and are : ANTI-FIRST STRIKE even own a FIRST STRIKE™ coin ? It may be true that in the beginning men didn't walk upright. The fact that PCGS used a label for marketing, in a way, bothers me. The TPGs need some checks and balances with governance, too. If that means the fed (our court system is under martial law, you know ?) steps in and controls it because it's US MINTED money, then so be it. We are at war. This is the true issue, isn't it ?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So, let's all screw each other and restrict more freedoms in our country. I understand you guys who want to SAVE us from OURSELVES, but let us have our fun, okay ?
If I thought for one second that PCGS was out to screw me or us, I'd be on BASE with the ANTI bunch. I am not convinced that such is the case. Basestealer, I apologize for my rant above. I just get upset that people throw stones and shoot arrows with "BASELESS" facts and strong opinions. There is only a small percentage of the billions of coins minted that have a following for first strikes™, star designations™, varieties, errors, etc.... let some of us have our coin fun, will ya all ?
China is manufacturing our cars, now. People are paying how much for gas ? You guys on your soapboxes need to get a real life and go picket walmart. on a side note for posterity's sake.
Janis Joplin might have been "nuts" but she sang it best with:
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose... "
Tiger Woods is a swindler for advertising Nike™ All race car drivers should remove all sponsor's logos from their cars. NGC is cheating people by selling a slab with a "STAR *" ( that's an opinion, not a grade)
And......... we should be a communist state ! >>
No, no, no. I'm a libertarian. I never suggested the government get involved in the first strike debate. Just because I am strongly opposed to something does not mean I'm scheming to legislate my opinions--that's what most everyone else does, and I oppose it. I believe in the power of the consumer--I believe if knowledgable people take back this hobby and spread the truth around, the market for bogus first strike coins will diminish or stop altogether. And that's when PCGS will do the right thing. And surely you see a difference between advertisements on race cars and false first strike designations on coins that are not first strikes. I don't know how you can compare the two. Tiger Woods is not a swindler for advertising Nike. If PCGS wants to advertise Nike or put the swoosh on their slabs, that's fine by me. There's no deception there. The deception comes from falsely advertising something as a first strike coin when it isn't. Or trademarking an established hobby term (first strike) and redefining it to avoid litigation, while the majority of the public still believes the term to mean what it has always meant. It would be no different if I decided to start a company that slabbed all coins sent to me before 2009 as "gem uncirculated" and all coins sent thereafter as "about good". And when people started to raise eyebrows, I'd just trademark "gem uncirculated" and redefine it as "coins graded prior to 2009". And I guess those that have invested heavily in this nonsense would be defending it (and thus defending their investment), however silly or insane it sounds!
No, I don't want people to stop collecting what they like. I have no vested interest in the purchasing habits of anyone but myself. I don't want the government or anyone else to stop you, either. What I do want is to make sure every Tom, Dick, and Harry understands that their first strike coins are not first strikes because nobody knows the order in which coins are minted (not even the US mint), and that the label/pedigree is meaningless, the coins are identical to the non first-strike versions, and the premium they command is pulled out of thin air. If, upon learning this, people still pay moon money for the coins on ebay (I doubt it), I'm fine with it because they're doing so informed.
<< <i>just goes to show folks, that people are willing to believe anything if it makes them happy.
ignorance is bliss. >>
And this response is the problem I have.
I collect what I want because I like it and your reference to my intelligence is what really pisses me off!
I don't collect them because they are bigger, better or whatever, I collect them because I want to! That in and of itself does not make me stupid!
It would be very stupid if I were to allow the elitist views of some to dictate to me what I should or should not collect based solely upon their views.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
......caveat emp·tor ....... n. The axiom or principle in commerce that the buyer alone is responsible for assessing the quality of a purchase before buying.
<< <i>......caveat emp·tor ....... n. The axiom or principle in commerce that the buyer alone is responsible for assessing the quality of a purchase before buying. >>
Wasn't the rejection of this idea one of the reasons we championed slabbing to begin with?
<< <i>......caveat emp·tor ....... n. The axiom or principle in commerce that the buyer alone is responsible for assessing the quality of a purchase before buying. >>
Wasn't the rejection of this idea one of the reasons we championed slabbing to begin with? >>
A true statement..I agree.BUT ..here's the kicker..When you go to the market to buy ...you should have some knowledge of what you are looking for armed with knowing of what you are buying.I'm not going to shell out thousands or hundreds of dollars on an item of purchase before I do a bit of research on it first.If I'm a novice I'm sure to get burned at first a bit..but I'll catch on.......
A good point has been raised: the very purpose of the TPG's was to protect the buyer from items that were not genuine, and from the abuses of overgrading by sellers. Those valuable principles are somewhat compromised (in my opinion) by labeling a coin "First Strike" that simply isn't, even though there may be a fine-print disclosure elsewhere on the slab stating that the coin is merely from the early shipments or releases.
Assuming PCGS' trademark hold up (and it appears to have thus far), wouldn't PCGS have established as a matter of law that their "First Strike" legally trademarked definition does not impeed or impact upon a common law usage term (as you say it does)?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Assuming PCGS' trademark hold up (and it appears to have thus far), wouldn't PCGS have established as a matter of law that their "First Strike" legally trademarked definition does not impeed or impact upon a common law usage term (as you say it does)?
Wondercoin >>
Impeed upon naive collector's minds, it will for sure (and does). No law or trademark or technicality can stop that deception. I believe the vast majority of collectors do not participate on CU forums (or any forums for that matter), rarely subscribe to Coin World or other publications, and simply dabble in the hobby on eBay, coin shops, and coin shows. For those people, where will they hear about this new definition for the term "first strike"? What about people new to the hobby? First strike is not a word one requires a dictionary to define; that is, the definition is self-evident. No research is required to conclude what a first strike ought to be. But research is required to determine what a PCGS first strike actually is. That's a problem, and let us not forget that it wasn't PCGS' plan from the very beginning to redefine the term--they marketed first strikes as first strikes until the US mint disclosed that that the first coins shipped are not the first coins struck. It was only at that point that PCGS put the disclaimer on the website and decided that first strike will now mean first shipped. So now "fat" means "orange" and "automobile" means "rainbow" and "monkey" means "snake".
Yes they should, FLB. And if and when they do, the collectors will read it and say "hey, there's nothing first strike about these!" and they will demand the wording be changed to "first shipped". But I suppose PCGS can go through the motions, or just adopt the new term outright and immediately.
The thing is, "Early Releases" IS an accurate description of what is being promoted --coins which are among the first of its type and date released by the Mint.
"First Strike" is not a similarly accurate description.
<< <i>Yes they should, FLB. And if and when they do, the collectors will read it and say "hey, there's nothing first strike about these!" and they will demand the wording be changed to "first shipped". But I suppose PCGS can go through the motions, or just adopt the new term outright and immediately. >>
Assuming PCGS' trademark hold up (and it appears to have thus far), wouldn't PCGS have established as a matter of law that their "First Strike" legally trademarked definition does not impeed or impact upon a common law usage term (as you say it does)?
Wondercoin >>
wondercoin, the answer to that question is a resounding "NO." Registration of a trade or service mark merely establishes claim of ownership in the intellectual property, thereby preventing others from adopting the mark for similar commercial use. However, the mere fact that a mark has been successfully registered does not preclude its owner from liability arising from uses of the mark that are nonetheless fraudulent, misleading, misrepresentative, tortious, unlawful, etc. In fact, if the USPTO is not asleep at the wheel, they will not grant registration of the "First Strike" mark because it is (a) a term of common parlance, already employed in numismatics; and (b) being used for a purpose contrary to its commonly understood meaning. Sadly, the talent at the USPTO is not what it should be, and many patents and registrations are granted that should not be.
If registration is not granted, PCGS can still assert a common law right in the mark, and use the ™ symbol instead of the registered mark ® symbol.
Regardless of whether a ™ symbol is used, or an ® if the mark is registered, there is still an inherent problem in using a commercial mark in a manner that is misrepresentative. If I were of counsel to PCGS, I would absolutely and strongly advise against their doing this. Conversely, the term "Early Release" has no such problem, and NGC has handled it quite correctly. I wonder if the General Counsel of CU has reviewed this? I would be shocked if any professional legal adviser would allow their client to go ahead with this marketing scheme.
Best, Sunnywood, Esq. (retired from the bar, however)
Edited to add: The above is my opinion, of course, and is not purported to be a full and accurate statement or analysis of the applicable law.
Sunnywood I have enjoyed your posts on this topic - I think the same way you do, but you are much more eloquent - and right on the mark.
For those that collect First Strikes - here is one on Ebay right now from across the street - would you add this one to your collection? NGC First Strikes toner
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
The thing is, "Early Releases" IS an accurate description of what is being promoted --coins which are among the first of its type and date released by the Mint.
"First Strike" is not a similarly accurate description. >>
Okay, it looks like we've thoroughly covered the TRADEMARK LAWS and the associated problems with calling something a FIRST STRIKE™ because anyone in their right mind knows there is only ONE first strike.
How about them coins that are PERFECT w/ a numerical grade of 70 ?
The thing is, "Early Releases" IS an accurate description of what is being promoted --coins which are among the first of its type and date released by the Mint.
"First Strike" is not a similarly accurate description. >>
<< <i>Sunnywood I have enjoyed your posts on this topic - I think the same way you do, but you are much more eloquent - and right on the mark.
For those that collect First Strikes - here is one on Ebay right now from across the street - would you add this one to your collection? NGC First Strikes toner >>
No.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
"In fact, if the USPTO is not asleep at the wheel, they will not grant registration of the "First Strike" mark because it is (a) a term of common parlance, already employed in numismatics; and (b) being used for a purpose contrary to its commonly understood meaning."
Again, my question was simply what if the USPTO DOES grant registration and determines the mark is NOT a term of common parlance and is NOT used for a purpose contrary to a common meaning? What then? That what I was curious about counselor?
Wondercoin
*** Discussion via PM's - thanks Sunnywood.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i> For those that collect First Strikes - here is one on Ebay right now from across the street - would you add this one to your collection? NGC First Strikes toner >>
Comments
<< <i>your first strikes could very well be the last coins made during the
run. my guess is just as good as yours. think about it. big carts
full of coins being put into a corner in a room. more coins come in.
more coins come in. >>
Could be but then it also might not happen that way!
I would imagine that the coins made in say, November, definitely wouldn't be First Strike™ but thats not to say that those that get there shipments early enough are NOT getting First Strike™. After all, there storage unit could be in onside and out the other couldn't it?
I just don't understand why everybody is so negative and critical and all knowing against those of us that like our First Strike™ slabs.
You guys really do not know how the mint packages and ships these.......................you only take your best negative shot at how you think its done.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I just don't understand why everybody is so negative and critical and all knowing against those of us that like our First Strike™ slabs. >>
Lee, maybe you could help us understand why you like the First Strike™ slab. What is it that you see in these coins (slabs) that is different from any other PCGS slabbed coin? I do believe that everyone should collect what they like. So if you like these, by all means collect them. Your frank reply to my question will be very helpful in our understanding the attraction.
I also collect a lot of stuff because I have this thing in me that says "Hey, you gotta have that!" Or "Wouldn't it be cool to have a complete set of those?"
You oughta see the collection of those bogus credit cards I have. You know the ones you get whenever you get solicited in the mail to sign up for this or that card? Well I've got quite a few of those for no intelligent reason other than I'm collecting them.
The name is LEE!
Much of the concern you see in this thread is well directed in that we do not want people collecting these First Strike™ believing that the coins have any special numismatic value. Earlier in this thread someone stated that they believed "First Strike" coins had better strikes than non First Strike coins. It simply is not true. Maybe the one he owns has a hammered strike, but it has nothing to do with a First Strike label.
You mentioned above that we do not know what the US Mint does. You are right, but we do know what the US Mint tells us they do. Here is a link to what they say about First Strikes, dies used, production times, and ship dates. Link First Strikes - Scroll Down
19Lyds, imagine the following: suppose PCGS decided to arbitrarily put the word "Special" on every fiftieth or maybe one hundredth example certified of a particular modern issue such as P$1 or "Hags." Would you just HAVE to have a set of only "Special" coins? Would you pay extra for those "Special" coins? ... because that is basically what is happening here ...
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
a business that produces mass quantities of an object that are all
identical.
I just don't understand why everybody is so negative and critical and all knowing against those of us that like our First Strike™ slabs.
if it is not obvious by now. it never will be.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Sure, PCGS now has a "new" definition on their website and "all of us" here on this forum "know what it really means"...but... we here may have a tendancy to forget that the vast majority of coin collectors DO NOT frequent this forum or this website.
One of the primary benefits originally touted for having coins graded and slabbed by a TPG was to enable "sight unseen" sales of coins. There are many folks who buy coins based on the information on the label...this may not be the wisest way to buy a coin...but it is done...
A new coin collector may see a PCGS label and have heard that PCGS could always be trusted...and it says "First Strike" on it... and they believe it...(will they read the "disclaimer" on the back of the holder or even understand it? I don't know...but there should not be a need for such a "disclaimer...just change the label to state the actual truth... "First Shipped" ... then there would be no potential for a problem with misrepresentation).
I will repeat this...and state it as plainly as I can...
If it is recognized by PCGS that these are really "First Shipped" then the 'honorable' thing to do would be to change the label to "First Shipped"...
Consider this...there are many folks here on the forum (and elsewhere) who like to collect Lincoln Cents. I, for one, find them boring...but I have no problem with anyone wishing to collect them. BUT, if folks started trying to promote them as the first American cent pieces ( but then in fine print, stated that they really mean that they are the first American cents with a President on them)...I WOULD have a problem with that...
...while this comparison may seem like a stretch...I do not think so...
And I do not think that anyone here is actually bashing anyone for wanting to collect First Strikes... it is the simple fact that the coins in the holders are not actually "First Strikes"...
...if you want to collect coins in holders that have labels on them that say "First Strike"...fine...
collect them...enjoy them... BUT THEY ARE NOT FIRST STRIKE COINS... they are simply coins that are put in holders with labels that say "First Strike"...
Listen closely to a TV or radio commercial and you'll hear those soft words like better or improved etc. without them telling you what it is better than or how they improved it. Listen to a political commercial and you'll really hear a bunch of that! The vehicle that I drive says "Limited" on the side, but I know that it is not limited (actually with all of the options it should say loaded!).
Is this misleading? It can be. Because it is done all of the time it is accepted, but that doesn't make it right.
<< <i>
...if you want to collect coins in holders that have labels on them that say "First Strike"...fine...
collect them...enjoy them... BUT THEY ARE NOT FIRST STRIKE COINS... they are simply coins that are put in holders with labels that say "First Strike"... >>
Be careful what you say..the kool aid group might not approve of those remarks.....!!!!!!
It's called revenue-
If the first strike and early release designations were to dissappear collectors would adjust and not care much- the telemarketers and dealers who supply the telemarketers would be the biggest complainers because they all use these designations to justify charging more for these coins. This especially becomes a huge problem after the window for having the designations passes. I hear these stories all the time-it's just sad.
All these designations do is seperate unsuspecting buyers from their money . It will be interesting to see where the premiums on these coins are in a few years when the marketing programs are gone.
<< <i>
What is a First Strike Frirz?
<< <i>
<< <i>your first strikes could very well be the last coins made during the
run. my guess is just as good as yours. think about it. big carts
full of coins being put into a corner in a room. more coins come in.
more coins come in. >>
Could be but then it also might not happen that way!
I would imagine that the coins made in say, November, definitely wouldn't be First Strike™ but thats not to say that those that get there shipments early enough are NOT getting First Strike™. After all, there storage unit could be in onside and out the other couldn't it?
I just don't understand why everybody is so negative and critical and all knowing against those of us that like our First Strike™ slabs.
You guys really do not know how the mint packages and ships these.......................you only take your best negative shot at how you think its done. >>
You cannot possibly be serious. You are going to defend the bogus first strike designation by claiming that we don't know for sure when a coin was struck? That's the entire point of the argument AGAINST using first strike designations! Nobody knows when a particular coin is struck, shipping date be damned!
As for PCGS' little webpage about how they've redefined an established hobby term... to hell with that nonsense. It would be unacceptable for me or anyone to do this--what if I decided to sell Carson City morgan dollars and made some obscure webpage with the disclaimer: "these aren't really Carson City dollars, in fact they aren't even morgan dollars. They are Sacagaweas. By the way, Carson City morgan dollar is now a trademark of basestealer enterprises." Give me a break. It's NOT okay to dupe the naive collecting community at large by using an established, well-defined term such as "first strike" (even trademarking it, for god sake!) and then putting a disclaimer on the website stating that first strike really doesn't mean first strike, it's just our little label fun.
If people want to collect them, fine! But I can't believe some of the defenses I'm seeing. When someone does something wrong (PCGS in this case), it affects everyone. It affects the value of the collections that hold these items and the people that religiously buy them for whatever reason. The same as any garage slabbing company or investment scam that comes out of the woodwork. There's no fine line between clever marketing and outright swindel--it's black and white and the printing is all over those PCGS labels. The only solution that sits well with me is for PCGS to recall every first strike coin in existence, pay the going market rate at the peak of the hype, and reslab it accurately. And for those collectors that still hold on to the labels, announce that the coins in those holders to be invalid, uncertified, and without guarantee after a certain date.
That's all it is: a marketing idea from a market entity that has become so powerful that if they build it, the collectors will come, regardless of the true added value of what is being "built."
According to the registry, there is now (1) 2006W ms70 (First strike)
although last time I looked, there were only (3) - 2007W ms70 first strikes listed, over 40 sold this weekend alone on ebay.
It seems you only get ms70 if the coin is also First strike. That ought to keep first strike popular for awhile.
--------
Howdy from Houston...
Can't keep my eyes
from the circling skies
Tongue tied and twisted
Just an earthbound misfit,
I
">my registry set
<< <i>It seems you only get ms70 if the coin is also First strike. That ought to keep first strike popular for awhile. >>
Can anyone else verify this? This points to a HUGE appearance of a conflict of interest if this is true and if it remains true...
<< <i>
<< <i>It seems you only get ms70 if the coin is also First strike. That ought to keep first strike popular for awhile. >>
Can anyone else verify this? This points to a HUGE appearance of a conflict of interest if this is true and if it remains true... >>
The pops in the registry show different numbers for different labels....A 2006 W blue label ms69 shows one number (no pops higher)
and a First strike ms69 2006 W shows another number (1 coin higher pop)...hence the 2006 w ms70 First strike.....(not shown in registry)
now check the few 2007 Ws listed....I am asumming all first strike, as blue lables have been hard to find....pop higher 3.
I am sure that it will change fast, like I said over 40 sold on ebay this weekend alone. I don't know how many ms70s they made....
may turn out to be very large number.....but I have not seen one blue lable 2007 w ms70 offered for sale.
Its a pain to go through the sets to find the info, but if you take the time it is all there.
--------
Howdy from Houston...
Can't keep my eyes
from the circling skies
Tongue tied and twisted
Just an earthbound misfit,
I
">my registry set
<< <i>You cannot possibly be serious. You are going to defend the bogus first strike designation by claiming that we don't know for sure when a coin was struck? >>
I'm only defending my right to collect whatever I want as I get tired of this forum continually rehashing this dead issue!
PCGS slabs and labels bullion coins and now the Presidential Proofs as First Strike™. People buy them and people sell them. Get over it!
If you don't like it, take it up with David Hall or Ron Guth.
The name is LEE!
Tiger Woods is a swindler for advertising Nike™
All race car drivers should remove all sponsor's logos from their cars.
NGC is cheating people by selling a slab with a "STAR *" ( that's an opinion, not a grade)
And......... we should be a communist state !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
ANTI-FIRST STRIKE even own a FIRST STRIKE™ coin ?
It may be true that in the beginning men didn't walk upright. The fact that PCGS used a label for marketing, in a way, bothers me. The TPGs need some checks and balances with governance, too. If that means the fed (our court system is under martial law, you know ?) steps in and controls it because it's US MINTED money, then so be it. We are at war. This is the true issue, isn't it ?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So, let's all screw each other and restrict more freedoms in our country. I understand you guys who want to SAVE us from OURSELVES, but let us have our fun, okay ?
If I thought for one second that PCGS was out to screw me or us, I'd be on BASE with the ANTI bunch. I am not convinced that such is the case. Basestealer, I apologize for my rant above. I just get upset that people throw stones and shoot arrows with "BASELESS" facts and strong opinions. There is only a small percentage of the billions of coins minted that have a following for first strikes™, star designations™, varieties, errors, etc.... let some of us have our coin fun, will ya all ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Cudos! I think that is very important to the hobby!
anything if it makes them happy.
ignorance is bliss.
<< <i>just goes to show folks, that people are willing to believe
anything if it makes them happy.
ignorance is bliss. >>
Tell that to the BIG THREE
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
People are paying how much for gas ?
You guys on your soapboxes need to get a real life and go picket walmart.
on a side note for posterity's sake.
Janis Joplin might have been "nuts" but she sang it best with:
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>with basestealer's logic
Tiger Woods is a swindler for advertising Nike™
All race car drivers should remove all sponsor's logos from their cars.
NGC is cheating people by selling a slab with a "STAR *" ( that's an opinion, not a grade)
And......... we should be a communist state ! >>
No, no, no. I'm a libertarian. I never suggested the government get involved in the first strike debate. Just because I am strongly opposed to something does not mean I'm scheming to legislate my opinions--that's what most everyone else does, and I oppose it. I believe in the power of the consumer--I believe if knowledgable people take back this hobby and spread the truth around, the market for bogus first strike coins will diminish or stop altogether. And that's when PCGS will do the right thing. And surely you see a difference between advertisements on race cars and false first strike designations on coins that are not first strikes. I don't know how you can compare the two. Tiger Woods is not a swindler for advertising Nike. If PCGS wants to advertise Nike or put the swoosh on their slabs, that's fine by me. There's no deception there. The deception comes from falsely advertising something as a first strike coin when it isn't. Or trademarking an established hobby term (first strike) and redefining it to avoid litigation, while the majority of the public still believes the term to mean what it has always meant. It would be no different if I decided to start a company that slabbed all coins sent to me before 2009 as "gem uncirculated" and all coins sent thereafter as "about good". And when people started to raise eyebrows, I'd just trademark "gem uncirculated" and redefine it as "coins graded prior to 2009". And I guess those that have invested heavily in this nonsense would be defending it (and thus defending their investment), however silly or insane it sounds!
No, I don't want people to stop collecting what they like. I have no vested interest in the purchasing habits of anyone but myself. I don't want the government or anyone else to stop you, either. What I do want is to make sure every Tom, Dick, and Harry understands that their first strike coins are not first strikes because nobody knows the order in which coins are minted (not even the US mint), and that the label/pedigree is meaningless, the coins are identical to the non first-strike versions, and the premium they command is pulled out of thin air. If, upon learning this, people still pay moon money for the coins on ebay (I doubt it), I'm fine with it because they're doing so informed.
<< <i>just goes to show folks, that people are willing to believe
anything if it makes them happy.
ignorance is bliss. >>
And this response is the problem I have.
I collect what I want because I like it and your reference to my intelligence is what really pisses me off!
I don't collect them because they are bigger, better or whatever, I collect them because I want to! That in and of itself does not make me stupid!
It would be very stupid if I were to allow the elitist views of some to dictate to me what I should or should not collect based solely upon their views.
The name is LEE!
n. The axiom or principle in commerce that the buyer alone is responsible for assessing the quality of a purchase before buying.
<< <i>......caveat emp·tor .......
n. The axiom or principle in commerce that the buyer alone is responsible for assessing the quality of a purchase before buying. >>
Wasn't the rejection of this idea one of the reasons we championed slabbing to begin with?
<< <i>
<< <i>......caveat emp·tor .......
n. The axiom or principle in commerce that the buyer alone is responsible for assessing the quality of a purchase before buying. >>
Wasn't the rejection of this idea one of the reasons we championed slabbing to begin with? >>
A true statement..I agree.BUT ..here's the kicker..When you go to the market to buy ...you should have some knowledge of what you are looking for armed with knowing of what you are buying.I'm not going to shell out thousands or hundreds of dollars on an item of purchase before I do a bit of research on it first.If I'm a novice I'm sure to get burned at first a bit..but I'll catch on.......
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Assuming PCGS' trademark hold up (and it appears to have thus far), wouldn't PCGS have established as a matter of law that their "First Strike" legally trademarked definition does not impeed or impact upon a common law usage term (as you say it does)?
Wondercoin
<< <i>Sunnywood - Question -
Assuming PCGS' trademark hold up (and it appears to have thus far), wouldn't PCGS have established as a matter of law that their "First Strike" legally trademarked definition does not impeed or impact upon a common law usage term (as you say it does)?
Wondercoin >>
Impeed upon naive collector's minds, it will for sure (and does). No law or trademark or technicality can stop that deception. I believe the vast majority of collectors do not participate on CU forums (or any forums for that matter), rarely subscribe to Coin World or other publications, and simply dabble in the hobby on eBay, coin shops, and coin shows. For those people, where will they hear about this new definition for the term "first strike"? What about people new to the hobby? First strike is not a word one requires a dictionary to define; that is, the definition is self-evident. No research is required to conclude what a first strike ought to be. But research is required to determine what a PCGS first strike actually is. That's a problem, and let us not forget that it wasn't PCGS' plan from the very beginning to redefine the term--they marketed first strikes as first strikes until the US mint disclosed that that the first coins shipped are not the first coins struck. It was only at that point that PCGS put the disclaimer on the website and decided that first strike will now mean first shipped. So now "fat" means "orange" and "automobile" means "rainbow" and "monkey" means "snake".
The newbies are not competing for these coins.... collectors of them are.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Perhaps PCGS could require dealers and collectors selling their coins with the tradmarked First Strike© insert to distribute a information sheet regarding the term along with coin sold to the new owner. NGC has adopted this policy for coins submitted for their Early Relases' designation. >>
Even that would be insufficient, IMO.
The thing is, "Early Releases" IS an accurate description of what is being promoted --coins which are among the first of its type and date released by the Mint.
"First Strike" is not a similarly accurate description.
<< <i>Yes they should, FLB. And if and when they do, the collectors will read it and say "hey, there's nothing first strike about these!" and they will demand the wording be changed to "first shipped". But I suppose PCGS can go through the motions, or just adopt the new term outright and immediately. >>
I think the issue is according to the definition PCGS discloses for the First Strike© designation, the coins are First Strike©. I agree with TwoSides that the great majority of collectors and certinly dealers purchasing these coins are familiar with what the designation reallty means.
<< <i>Sunnywood - Question -
Assuming PCGS' trademark hold up (and it appears to have thus far), wouldn't PCGS have established as a matter of law that their "First Strike" legally trademarked definition does not impeed or impact upon a common law usage term (as you say it does)?
Wondercoin >>
wondercoin, the answer to that question is a resounding "NO." Registration of a trade or service mark merely establishes claim of ownership in the intellectual property, thereby preventing others from adopting the mark for similar commercial use. However, the mere fact that a mark has been successfully registered does not preclude its owner from liability arising from uses of the mark that are nonetheless fraudulent, misleading, misrepresentative, tortious, unlawful, etc. In fact, if the USPTO is not asleep at the wheel, they will not grant registration of the "First Strike" mark because it is (a) a term of common parlance, already employed in numismatics; and (b) being used for a purpose contrary to its commonly understood meaning. Sadly, the talent at the USPTO is not what it should be, and many patents and registrations are granted that should not be.
If registration is not granted, PCGS can still assert a common law right in the mark, and use the ™ symbol instead of the registered mark ® symbol.
Regardless of whether a ™ symbol is used, or an ® if the mark is registered, there is still an inherent problem in using a commercial mark in a manner that is misrepresentative. If I were of counsel to PCGS, I would absolutely and strongly advise against their doing this. Conversely, the term "Early Release" has no such problem, and NGC has handled it quite correctly. I wonder if the General Counsel of CU has reviewed this? I would be shocked if any professional legal adviser would allow their client to go ahead with this marketing scheme.
Best,
Sunnywood, Esq. (retired from the bar, however)
Edited to add: The above is my opinion, of course, and is not purported to be a full and accurate statement or analysis of the applicable law.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
I have enjoyed your posts on this topic - I think the same way you do, but you are much more eloquent - and right on the mark.
For those that collect First Strikes - here is one on Ebay right now from across the street - would you add this one to your collection? NGC First Strikes toner
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
<< <i>
The thing is, "Early Releases" IS an accurate description of what is being promoted --coins which are among the first of its type and date released by the Mint.
"First Strike" is not a similarly accurate description. >>
...Give that Man a Cigar....!!!!!!!
How about them coins that are PERFECT w/ a numerical grade of 70
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>
The thing is, "Early Releases" IS an accurate description of what is being promoted --coins which are among the first of its type and date released by the Mint.
"First Strike" is not a similarly accurate description. >>
...Give that Man a Cigar....!!!!!!! >>
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>Sunnywood
I have enjoyed your posts on this topic - I think the same way you do, but you are much more eloquent - and right on the mark.
For those that collect First Strikes - here is one on Ebay right now from across the street - would you add this one to your collection? NGC First Strikes toner >>
No.
The name is LEE!
Again, my question was simply what if the USPTO DOES grant registration and determines the mark is NOT a term of common parlance and is NOT used for a purpose contrary to a common meaning? What then? That what I was curious about counselor?
Wondercoin
*** Discussion via PM's - thanks Sunnywood.
This is a proven fact. No one is forcing anyone to collect them.
The Fact is they are here and here to stay mind you.
And YES...I own First Strike Coins AND First Day of Issue Coins.
This just makes the hobby more diverse.
So for a fraction in many cses you can own a ms69 non First Strike coin and be just as content and lot more cash in your pocket.
The choice is for each of us to make.
Now as for Satin Finish Coins versus Business strike coins... :-)
...just kidding..that subject is already running warm on another thread.
Enjoy our great hobby!
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>
For those that collect First Strikes - here is one on Ebay right now from across the street - would you add this one to your collection?
NGC First Strikes toner >>
Nothin' says lovin' like somethin' from the oven.