lol. that is truly funny. i won't say what i think because i will offend you. >>
Actually what I think is funny is all these people that think they are 'experts' passing judgement on modern coins that they supposedly don't care about and don't collect. Which I actually do.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
Actually what I think is funny is all these people that think they are 'experts' passing judgement on modern coins that they supposedly don't care about and don't collect. Which I actually do.
----
gosh, it is like arguing with a old person. read the posts my friend. i highly doubt these first strike coins are what they are. yet you seem soooo convinced. are you sure you know what FIFO is? only food companies and other businesses work in that way due to the product.
your first strikes could very well be the last coins made during the run. my guess is just as good as yours. think about it. big carts full of coins being put into a corner in a room. more coins come in. more coins come in.
you truly think when it came time to ship they went to that corner and grabbed the first ones? lol. ok. continue to think that.
<< <i>I will be receiving my Presidential proof sets sets this week because they shipped late last week. Are these worth doing the first strike labels, or should I just enjoy them in their government holders? >>
This is a totally different question and a different game than the original topic!
But since you asked.................
What you need to do is order the maximum allowable!
Then, send them all in for First Strike™ labels.
When you get em back, pick out the ones you want to keep then sell the rest on EBay to cover all your costs and pocket the difference so you can so it all over again next year!
By the time the series ends, you'll have made
<< <i>millions >>
and will have the best coins available for free! >>
Not at all what I expected. I assume you are joking about the
<< <i>millions >>
.
Even after all these posts the only thing I get is some people are willing to pay more for labels than plastic, and that one is really confusing. I do understand buy to coin not the plastic, but I don't know if I will understand buy the label.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Actually what I think is funny is all these people that think they are 'experts' passing judgement on modern coins that they supposedly don't care about and don't collect. Which I actually do.
----
gosh, it is like arguing with a old person. read the posts my friend. i highly doubt these first strike coins are what they are. yet you seem soooo convinced. are you sure you know what FIFO is? only food companies and other businesses work in that way due to the product.
your first strikes could very well be the last coins made during the run. my guess is just as good as yours. think about it. big carts full of coins being put into a corner in a room. more coins come in. more coins come in.
you truly think when it came time to ship they went to that corner and grabbed the first ones? lol. ok. continue to think that. >>
I also collect moderns, but I usually buy direct from the mint. Once in a while I pick something up on the aftermarket. The labels do not mean anything to me, but it looks like they are very important to others. Just because I don't understand it, it doesn't mean those collectors are wrong. I, like many, have a graded set of state quarters. I liked the look of the flag holders, so I am building my set with flag holders. There is only a slight premium if any at all for the flag holdered coins, but first strike coins are "issued" in the first 30 days. They are not the first coins off the dies. I read in either NN or CW the mint has made the comments they don't FIFO (first in first out), and even if they did FIFO the coins could still be late stage dies. The dies only make so many coins.
I was not trying to start a controversy, I was trying to learn and understand the thinking behind these coins/holders.
It really makes one think though…
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Actually what I think is funny is all these people that think they are 'experts' passing judgement on modern coins that they supposedly don't care about and don't collect. Which I actually do.
----
gosh, it is like arguing with a old person. read the posts my friend. i highly doubt these first strike coins are what they are. yet you seem soooo convinced. are you sure you know what FIFO is? only food companies and other businesses work in that way due to the product.
your first strikes could very well be the last coins made during the run. my guess is just as good as yours. think about it. big carts full of coins being put into a corner in a room. more coins come in. more coins come in.
you truly think when it came time to ship they went to that corner and grabbed the first ones? lol. ok. continue to think that. >>
I also collect moderns, but I usually buy direct from the mint. Once in a while I pick something up on the aftermarket. The labels do not mean anything to me, but it looks like they are very important to others. Just because I don't understand it, it doesn't mean those collectors are wrong. I, like many, have a graded set of state quarters. I liked the look of the flag holders, so I am building my set with flag holders. There is only a slight premium if any at all for the flag holdered coins, but first strike coins are "issued" in the first 30 days. They are not the first coins off the dies. I read in either NN or CW the mint has made the comments they don't FIFO (first in first out), and even if they did FIFO the coins could still be late stage dies. The dies only make so many coins.
I was not trying to start a controversy, I was trying to learn and understand the thinking behind these coins/holders.
It really makes one think though… >>
I think buy what you like and buy the coin not the holder sums it up rather well. Use the insert as a starting point not absolute fact.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
Why do people go so nuts over MS70 First Strikes v. MS 70 Regular?
For the same reason that they are willing to pay multiples of the MS69 price for an MS70, regardless of the fact that most MS69's are indistinguishable from MS70 examples. People are blinded by a competitive desire to have "the best" even when reason should tell them otherwise.
The "First Strikes" are nothing more than a marketing gimmick. Some might argue that they are also nothing less than a scandal.
Markets can remain irrational for a long time, but ultimately they find the right levels. The premiums paid for nonexistent differences in quality will eventually evaporate.
<< <i>On the 20th Anniversary ASE Proofs I could tell a difference. The coin appeared better struck with more defined lettering vs the non First Strike. >>
Actually, so do I, although I believe it has more to do with the strictness of PCGS graders at the time the first strikes were being graded more than any other reason. I am sure there are some choice non-FS DCAMS but PCGS has loosened the grading standards by then so they are "lost in the mud". My best looking DCAM by far is one of the very first FS DCAMS.
Reverse Proofs were the same way. Early in the grading, PCGS was grading a paultry 1.7% of FS RP's as 70. That ratio kept creeping up steadily until what? around 10% now? I haven't been keeping track for a while. I am sure it was the same for the DCAM FS, (very tight at first then loosening up the standard), but I didn't keep track of the starting 70/non70 ratio for that coin.
There are no experts in moderns. Not even Mitch is an expert. It only takes an eagle eye to pick cherries and cherries elevate to those who deal with them. One thing about coins has never changed : The cream rises to the top. First Strike is a trademark for coins that were released and slabbed within a short window of when they left the mint. Plain and simple. The beauty of the program is that the coin is (or should be) in it's original , untampered package as shipped from the mint. No more cherrypicking !!!
Why do people go nuts over them ? I said that in my first post. This is an illusion. People were nuts before the "First Strike" label.
Anyone who is obsessed with such microscopic differences in coin condition and labeling is a NUT and should really get a life or read Hans Christian Anderson's fairy tale "The Emperors New Clothes" you are a bunch of PSYCO SICKOS...that is how I really feel...
The only coins the US mint produces and verifies as "first strikes" are those they issue with first day covers. Those coins are cherrypicked on the first day of mintage and reserved for FDC assembly, which may ship many months later. Many collectors naively believe that because those FDCs are marketed many months after mintage began, that they cannot possibly be first strikes--which of course is false. The date a coin is shipped has nothing to do with when it was minted.
"First strike" pedigrees issued by third party graders are scams. They are scams because the coins are not guaranteed first strikes--the third party grader has no possible way to know when the coin was minted (again, ship date means nothing), because the US mint has no way of knowing when the coin was minted. The US mint has had several press releases regarding the bogus nature of any "first strike" designation.
The public at large is clueless when it comes to the modern minting process. Perhaps a century ago a "first strike" displayed sharper detail, simply because the dies wore out faster and the mint was tardy in replacing them. Thus it was ingrained into people's minds that first strikes will always display the best strike, and coins struck later in the process will be weak. That may have been true at one time, but it is no longer true. The mint replaces dies so often that you cannot tell any visible difference between a first strike or a last strike coin, or any coin struck in between. There may indeed be weaker and stronger struck coins, but it doesn't say anything about the date they were minted since die replacement is a continuous, ongoing process throughout the mintage procedure.
It is the false conception of "first strike" coupled with the third party grader's hype and lie-labels that cause these coins to be collectible beyond their "regular" counterparts. Because these coins are marketed with deception, and because the value is based on people believing that deception, there is no tangible premium inherent in the coins themselves. As such, they won't hold value long-term. They are a waste of money. When the truth is widespread, or when any TPG goes belly up, it is the first strike coins and stupid pedigrees that will faulter first and hardest.
Here is one answer to the question "Why does PCGS continue to issue the First Strike designation?" Because they make money from it. If a majority of people submitting coins to be graded continue to ask for it, then why not do it. If the marketplace starts to agree with the majority here that the designation is meaningless and the demand goes away, then PCGS would discontinue it if it isn't cost effective.
I'd keep playing. I don't think the heavy stuff will be coming down for quite a while!
"First strike" pedigrees issued by third party graders are scams. They are scams because the coins are not guaranteed first strikes--the third party grader has no possible way to know when the coin was minted (again, ship date means nothing), because the US mint has no way of knowing when the coin was minted. The US mint has had several press releases regarding the bogus nature of any "first strike" designation.
,,,,
Then again I don't believe that PCGS claims that the coins are the first ones off the press. Maybe they should include this URL somewhere on the label.
Consumers buy products all the time based upon “limited production”, “limited availability”, “limited time only” offers, etc.. For example, Haggen Daz might come out with its “gold Ribbon Limited Edition” ice cream flavor for only a short period of time. Or, a car company that produces limited edition cars with special pricing. I agree that “First Strike” is mainly about “marketing” and trying to get even more consumers interested in buying coins.
I believe the origin of the “First Strike” idea stemmed from a number of collectors approaching Miles Standish a number of years ago asking him to please come up with a method to tell their earliest release coins received from the Mint(s) from the later received coins (as they obviously believed the earliest releases had added value). I recall some very early deals (including a British Mint?) where attempts were made to actually number the coins (i.e. #1, #2, etc.) as they were being produced off the presses by the Mint (which may have pre-dated Miles developing the First Strike concept). Over time, PCGS developed specific rules for “First Strike” to attempt to carry out “First Strike” on a consistent basis and I doubt anyone at PCGS will state that “First Strike” is about anything other than marketing, even when it is attacked as being a “marketing gimmick”.
First Strike would likely not exist if it were not for consumer demand and there is plenty of it. In some cases, the “First Strike” premium is virtually non-existent (e.g. a number of Platinum coins, some Proof Silver Eagles and even what we just saw with the early pricing of MS70 2007(w) Silver Eagles). In other cases, there is a small premium which the market has set. In the extreme cases (and just a couple coin types come to mind), there is a significant pricing differences between “First Strike” and non-First Strike coins. I know of one case where when PCGS discovered the extreme pricing difference, they simply did not include those coins in the Registry (and still not to this day I believe) to ensure that collectors did not have to” chase” those particular coins. But, for the most part, PCGS does not play any role in any market pricing related to First Strike, as they shouldn’t.
So, whether one hates or loves “First Strike” or ‘Early Release” or any other label placed on coins for the purpose of marketing them, there is no denying that this marketing idea has expanded unit growth at the grading companies and has likely brought many more new collectors into the marketplace. And, expanding the “base” is quite important, even to the classic dealers/collectors who can then explain to these new collectors (as many modern dealers do as well) that “First Strike” is nothing more than a marketing strategy and they should consider moving into this different area of coin collecting, or that different area. Personally, I can’t tell you how many times I have had that conversation with a new collector, pointing out that they can have the “same coin” without the First Strike label for less money and in most cases the reply is something to the effect “do you want to keep the First Strike coin for yourself - because if you do just say so”? The power of “First Strike” tm.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Ok, let me retract my earlier statement Mitch. You are an expert in Moderns and know how to pick 'em, or one of your associates does. However, the fact remains, with FirstStrike™ it's impossible to pick the cherries, right ? It's a matter of LUCK getting a 70 out of a submission that is blindly submitted. So, in essence, those who complain most about it really aren't the ones submitting. If anyone has a legitimate complaint it's the submitter who cannot even see what he's submitting. In this regard, First Strike™ causes me to "go nuts".
I just want to see what I'm sending in, as I am very picky. This is my own personal catch 22 as I prepare a bulk order
The offensive aspect of "First Strike" in this context is that it is a misleading misnomer. In classical nuimismatics, terms such as "first strike," "early strike," "early die state" or EDS, and "very early die state" or VEDS, have a proper meaning and some real significance. The terms imply, of course, that the coin was struck early in the life of the dies. In those days, dies were often poorly made and deteriorated noticeably and rapidly. An EDS coin offers an opportunity to see the proper details from the dies, without die cracks, dishing, cuds, repolishing lines, loss of detail, rust pitting, and other aspects of die deterioration. First strike or early strike coins may also offer better impressions (because the die is still sharp), better surfaces, and more cameo contrast (where applicable). For example, DMPL Morgans are generally first or early strikes, rather than coins produced from special dies.
As we all know, the "First Strike" moderns are simply NOT guaranteed to be early strikes off the dies. We know very little about the numbers of dies used, die life, or when in the life cycle of the dies a particular coin might have been struck. These are simply "early shipments" or "early releases" - something which has NO correlation to the quality of the coins or their appearance. Thus it is not only a misnomer (because they are not necessarily first strikes), but it is also misleading (because the coins do not have the incrementally superior strike, surfaces, or appearance that the term might otherwise imply).
It is too kind to call this nothing more than a marketing ploy. I would be much happier if a more accurate term such as "Early Release" were used. One can only hope that the marketplace will assign an appropriately SMALL premium to this meaningless "limited edition" or "limited time only" style of offering.
One wonders when the profit-hungry Mint will catch on. If they offered REAL "First Strikes" and certified them appropriately, they would be able to reap a somewhat more justifiable profit by selling such items at a premium.
"As we all know, the "First Strike" moderns are simply NOT guaranteed to be early strikes off the dies."
Yes, we ALL know that and they are NOT represented as such by PCGS or any reputable dealers that I know. Hence, it is all about marketing, just as nearly every business in America is about successfully marketing a product. Like... push, pull or drag your beat up old car in today for a minimum $8,000 trade in value against your new car buy -but, for today only! Perhaps tomorrow you can get the same $8,000 off without dragging a car in and possibly getting a hernia? Marketing, marketing, marketing!!!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
In other words, an outright lie is perfectly acceptable just because "we all know" ?? I don't buy that. It goes beyond the principle of "puffery" as accepted commercial speech. Never has our legal system embraced an outright lie or a complete misrepresentation as acceptable. I can only repeat, it is too kind to call this nothing more than a marketing gimmick, particularly as the term "First Strike" is not a newly coined (pun intended) phrase created for this promotion. Rather, it is a longstanding designation with a specific meaning in the context of numismatics, which shall now become b*stardized.
Perhaps I and my post will go *poof* ... but I must defend truth, justice, and the American way !!!
Just the opposite - I do not see the "LIES" you speak of. First, you point out that EVERYONE knows what First Strike is all about. Think about that. Second, you then suggest that totally uneducated folks will confuse the meaning with the meaning skilled numismatists have been using for years (as if the "uneducated folks" are even aware of complex usage terms throughout numismatic history). Bottom line - PCGS has defined "First Strike" tm - I will continue to do my part to remind collectors to read and understand what that definition is all about.
Wondercoin
P.S. If "early release" results in big premiums for coins, isn't there the same "problem" of folks paying a big premium for coins which are not the early strikes??
This last question was in response to a now edited post....
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
One may argue that PCGS and others are not "misrepresenting" anything as they are not claiming that the coins are actual first strikes. However, the term "First Strike" is a de facto representation. The phrase speaks for itself not only because it already carries an accepted meaning in numismatics, but because it has an implied meaning on its own. Res ipse loquitur !!! I will continue to exhort PCGS and others to use a more accurate, less misleading term, such as "Early Release."
wondercoin, I certainly hope that you and others make an express disclaimer when you offer items with this controversial designation to the public.
Edited to add: No - there is no problem with premiums paid for "Early Release." It is the consumer's right to determine the premium that s/he will pay for something, whether or not I agree with it. The problem arises from the misleading misrepresentation, which may lead a consumer to pay for something that s/he is not acutally getting. If I pay for a First Strike™ expecting a first strike, and don't get one, that is a problem. If I pay for an Early Release™ expecting an early release, and I do get an early release, that is not a problem.
If the designation"early release" results in big premiums for coins, isn't there the same "problem" in your mind of folks paying a big premium for coins which are not the early strikes?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>One may argue that PCGS and others are not "misrepresenting" anything as they are not claiming that the coins are actual first strikes. However, the term "First Strike" is a de facto representation. The phrase speaks for itself not only because it already carries an accepted meaning in numismatics, but because it has an implied meaning on its own. Res ipse loquitur !!! I will continue to exhort PCGS and others to use a more accurate, less misleading term, such as "Early Release."
wondercoin, I certainly hope that you and others make an express disclaimer when you offer items with this controversial designation to the public. >>
FYI, PCGS NOW states on the back of the First Strike insert.-
No, there is not the same problem. If big premiums are paid for something I find meaningless, such as "Early Release" coins, then I will not buy them. But if others buy them, fully knowing what they are getting, then i have no problem with that. The problem arises when someone is induced to pay a premium for something that s/he is not actually getting !!!
When I said that "we all know" these are not really first strikes, i was referring to the community on these message Boards. Anyone who is involved enough as a collector to be reading and posting here is not likely to be misled by this false designation. However, these coins are marketed to the general public. I have seen "First Strike" coins offered on the cable TV programs with all sorts of premium descriptions applied to them. Because the designation is inherently false, it will inevitably result in transactions based on misrepresentation.
Thus, even if PCGS and first-line dealers such as you strive to represent the coins accurately for what they are, there is still a problem here.
Edited to add: I'm glad PCGS has a statement on the back of the slab now. It should also explicitly state that the coin is not guaranteed to be a first or early strike from the dies.
<< <i>who can then explain to these new collectors (as many modern dealers do as well) that “First Strike” is nothing more than a marketing strategy >>
<< <i>First, you point out that EVERYONE knows what First Strike is all about. Think about that >>
Which is it, new collectors have to be explained by reputable dealers what it means, or everyone already knows?
Sunnywood - First, you know I respect your knowledge of numismatics second to none!
Which is why I was asking you to address this issue - if the uneduated public is paying large premiums for designations that have no roots in classic numismatics whatsoever, isn't that in a way the same situation as uneduated buyers who know nothing about the classic history of a term such as "first strike" (assuming it is a term of art) paying a premium for those coins as well? Why are you "OK" with collectors paying a premium so long as the designation term is a "new fangled" term (which a board member just confused with Paris Hilton's release)? Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I have to voice my personal views on FS or any other special label holders. I have been mostly collecting and sometimes selling moderns since 1987, and I have not, or never will buy into FS holders. Having said that, when I HAVE submitted coins for grading, every time I have gone to the effort of ONLY sending in my best quality examples for grading. Sending in a bulk order might pay off for a dealer that buys them by the 1k's, but for someone sending in a small order, or unopened box, it's just a crap shoot. Also, I would NEVER sell someone a box that has never been opened, much less viewed. As an example, I acquired 40-2006-W 20th anniversary Silver Eagle sets last year, and apon receiving eack box of 10, set out to personally grading each and every coin as to best quality to worse. Then I sold the lesser sets at market value, between $200.00 and $335.00. Now I am sitting on my TOP 12 sets out of 40. As most of you that bought these 3 piece sets have noticed, a box of 10 MIGHT come up with 1-2 Reverse Proof, possible 70's, 2-4 MS70 possibles, and 1 or 2 PF70 possibles. By sorting these coins I can say that out of 40 sets, these 12 sets ARE the BEST of 4 boxes. Shouldn't a 70 stand on it's own, regardless of what label is on the holder?
wondercoin, thanks for the compliment ... the problem is that this is not just a random "newfangled term." It carries both an accepted meaning, and also an implied meaning. Thus, even to the uninitiated, there is an implied meaning. Even the non-collecting layman knows that coins are "struck" and will attach a meaning to "First Strike." Here's a scenario ...
A car dealer sells me a car that he calls a "Cadillac" ... when the car arrives from the factory, and I come to take delivery, it is a Hyundai.
"Hey, wait a minute," I say, "I ordered a Cadillac."
"Didn't you read the fine print on the back of the contract?" asks the dealer. "In this dealership, we use the term 'Cadillac™' to describe a Hyundai. EVERYONE around here knows that !!!"
"But I paid Cadillac money for this car," I protest.
"No, you paid Hyundai money, plus the market premium for our trademarked term 'Cadillac™' ..."
"Yeah, but I'm getting a (*&%^$ Hyundai. I thought I was getting a Cadillac. You told me it was a Cadillac."
"It's not a Cadillac," laughs the dealer. "It's a 'Cadillac™.' "
I guess we can't all hear the difference in pronunciation between Cadillac and "Cadillac™" ...
<< <i>I have to voice my personal views on FS or any other special label holders. I have been mostly collecting and sometimes selling moderns since 1987, and I have not, or never will buy into FS holders. Having said that, when I HAVE submitted coins for grading, every time I have gone to the effort of ONLY sending in my best quality examples for grading. Sending in a bulk order might pay off for a dealer that buys them by the 1k's, but for someone sending in a small order, or unopened box, it's just a crap shoot. Also, I would NEVER sell someone a box that has never been opened, much less viewed. As an example, I acquired 40-2006-W 20th anniversary Silver Eagle sets last year, and apon receiving eack box of 10, set out to personally grading each and every coin as to best quality to worse. Then I sold the lesser sets at market value, between $200.00 and $335.00. Now I am sitting on my TOP 12 sets out of 40. As most of you that bought these 3 piece sets have noticed, a box of 10 MIGHT come up with 1-2 Reverse Proof, possible 70's, 2-4 MS70 possibles, and 1 or 2 PF70 possibles. By sorting these coins I can say that out of 40 sets, these 12 sets ARE the BEST of 4 boxes. Shouldn't a 70 stand on it's own, regardless of what label is on the holder? >>
That is true, however no two coins of the same grade are the same, even 70's. Buyers will always pay a premium for PQ examples of a given grade.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
<< <i>I agree with Sea Eagle - the first strikes were not necessarily struck first. The mint even admitted it.
So please don't pay a premium for a holder with a first strikes label on it - to me it doesn't mean anything.
Sure you can find well struck and high grade coins in first strike holders - you can also find them in non first strike holders. The mint uses lots of dies during the production run - you can get a coin off a fresh set of dies at virtually any time.
Why PCGS continues to produce first strike slabs is beyond me. >>
First Strike now really means FIRST SHIPPED, not First Struck Coin according to PCGS.
By the way, I agree in general that there is a problem with "special designation" holders. Howveer, they have great market power. I am referring to the designations such as FS, FBL, FT, FH; and further to such designations as CAM, DCAM, or NGC's "star." The fact that these designations can carry tremendous premiums in the marketplace shows that consumers want them ... a fact with which I cannot argue. However, they are distortive to numismatics. I have written extensively on these designations and their effects previously ... but at least in these cases, the designations accurately describe some specific inherent characteristic of the coin. In other words, you are getting something real with these designations (when they are accurately applied), such as a good strike, strong contrast, or great eye appeal.
Conversely, in the present instance, you are getting nothing but a label. The Early Release coins will have no inherent difference from later released coins.
Edited to add (quoting from above):
"First Strike now really means FIRST SHIPPED, not First Struck Coin according to PCGS."
Great !! Now we have the truth !!! Now why not just change the designation to FIRST SHIPPED ????
(Yes, I know the answer - it won't sell as well ... Why not? Because "First Strike" sounds better ... which is another way of saying, it succeeds better at inducing people to pay premiums ... )
I do not buy into this FS thing but given a chance to pay the same amount, I would get coin in FS holder just because the words First Strike are printed in Gold color and are beautifully looking.
<< <i>term is a "new fangled" term (which a board member just confused with Paris Hilton's release)? "the problem is that this is not just a random "newfangled term." "
First Strike now really means FIRST SHIPPED, not First Struck Coin according to PCGS. >>
Thanks wondercoin !!! Enjoy the day .... I will get off my soapbox now !!!!
Hopefully, before they NARU me, the powers that be at PCGS will remember that I have spent even more time on my pro-PCGS soapbox than on my anti-First Strike soapbox !!!! Thank you PCGS, for providing a forum in which members can discuss their views - even views which are sometimes at odds with PCGS's own practices. For the record, let me state that my entire collection is housed exclusively in PCGS holders, as I believe the grading standards at PCGS are more accurate and more consistent over time than any other grading service.
Rarity - I agree, beautiful gold letters should carry some small premium. In fact, I have commented for some time that the services should develop a premium slab with an upgrade in quality and appearance. It always seemed odd to me that $20 moderns, $1000 collector coins, and $100,000 rarities are all in the same $1 piece of plastic.
I would pay some premium to have my sets in slabs with beautifully designed inserts with premium borders and gold embossed lettering !!!
This thread sure lends credence to one theory. Buy the coin, not the holder
I like coins. If they make the grade for eye appeal, luster and strike detail, does it matter what a label™ says ? I'd love to see how many guys actually bought "FirstStrike™" coins thinking they were getting "EARLY DIE STATE SPECIMENS". I suspect few purchased them for that reason. There is a following, just like religion. We don't all go to the same church and we don't all wear the same shoes. Those who make a fuss about marketing genius really should picket WALMART. This is AMERICA and it's good that we have this forum to discuss issues that deal with our hobby, but to make it sound as if one company is bamboozling Joe Public borders on "NUTS". The boys across the street lost out on the "firststrike" label , and so now, they call them "early release".
I should have just left well enough alone, but ...
I'll say it again... People were nuts before the "First Strike™" label.
"I would say without seeing the coins, most would prefer the sealed box".
And my point to that statement is this... Most modern collectors will not go to the trouble of picking out the best coins available. Most have more $$$ than sense. They would rather put their trust in a grading company's label than checking numerous examples for the best quality. Otherwise you would see very little collectors purchasing products from QVC?
No research= Big bucks spent= Very Ill customer when it comes time to sell!
I offer this tidbit in an effort to provide historical background:
From the PCGS Lingo page in March 2006:
first strike A coin struck early in the life of a die. First strikes sometimes are characterized by striated or mirror-like fields if the die was polished. Almost always fully or well struck, with crisp detail.
How many thousands of PCGS First Strike holders were made prior to this being changed and the new definition being put on their website. PCGS has been back tracking trying to cover there hind quarters for the past year. I do give props to PCGS finally putting the disclaimer on the label if the above post stating such is true.
Wondercoin, I commend your full disclosure of the PCGS First Strike meaning. However, these are often sold as what they are not. Just go to ebay. I didn't have to go very far down the search list to find this False First Strike Claim.
There is no confusion here between the term "Early Release" and Paris Hilton.
It was an attempt at humor and I used the official forum designation If you are not into modern (news) you might not understand that or it wasn't really that funny (as I said it was an attempt).
I think most here do agree that an attempt to mislead someone (for profit) is unethical and in many cases illegal. If I do sell a First Strike coin, I will link to PCGS's explanation so that the buyer has all of the facts they need to make their decision.
I'd keep playing. I don't think the heavy stuff will be coming down for quite a while!
<< <i>First Strike now really means FIRST SHIPPED, not First Struck Coin according to PCGS. >>
This is sad.
Mind you...PCGS wants to be THE BEST TPG company out there. I know they are making money BUT this sure isn't the best way they can show us. The high road (that should be followed by THE BEST) doesn't, or should I say SHOULDN'T, follow this path.
If I placed 3 sets of 2006 Silver Eagle Anniversary sets on a table, one shipped out early november and the other two late december, would graders at any major TPG company be able to point out which set was struck first?
Comments
i won't say what i think because i will offend you. >>
Actually what I think is funny is all these people that think they are 'experts' passing judgement on modern coins that they supposedly don't care about and don't collect. Which I actually do.
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
----
gosh, it is like arguing with a old person. read the posts my friend.
i highly doubt these first strike coins are what they are.
yet you seem soooo convinced. are you sure you know what FIFO
is? only food companies and other businesses work in that way
due to the product.
your first strikes could very well be the last coins made during the
run. my guess is just as good as yours. think about it. big carts
full of coins being put into a corner in a room. more coins come in.
more coins come in.
you truly think when it came time to ship they went to that corner
and grabbed the first ones? lol. ok. continue to think that.
<< <i>
<< <i>I will be receiving my Presidential proof sets sets this week because they shipped late last week. Are these worth doing the first strike labels, or should I just enjoy them in their government holders? >>
This is a totally different question and a different game than the original topic!
But since you asked.................
What you need to do is order the maximum allowable!
Then, send them all in for First Strike™ labels.
When you get em back, pick out the ones you want to keep then sell the rest on EBay to cover all your costs and pocket the difference so you can so it all over again next year!
By the time the series ends, you'll have made
<< <i>millions >>
and will have the best coins available for free! >>
Not at all what I expected. I assume you are joking about the
<< <i>millions >>
.
Even after all these posts the only thing I get is some people are willing to pay more for labels than plastic, and that one is really confusing. I do understand buy to coin not the plastic, but I don't know if I will understand buy the label.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Actually what I think is funny is all these people that think they are 'experts' passing judgement on modern coins that they supposedly don't care about and don't collect. Which I actually do.
----
gosh, it is like arguing with a old person. read the posts my friend.
i highly doubt these first strike coins are what they are.
yet you seem soooo convinced. are you sure you know what FIFO
is? only food companies and other businesses work in that way
due to the product.
your first strikes could very well be the last coins made during the
run. my guess is just as good as yours. think about it. big carts
full of coins being put into a corner in a room. more coins come in.
more coins come in.
you truly think when it came time to ship they went to that corner
and grabbed the first ones? lol. ok. continue to think that. >>
I also collect moderns, but I usually buy direct from the mint. Once in a while I pick something up on the aftermarket. The labels do not mean anything to me, but it looks like they are very important to others. Just because I don't understand it, it doesn't mean those collectors are wrong. I, like many, have a graded set of state quarters. I liked the look of the flag holders, so I am building my set with flag holders. There is only a slight premium if any at all for the flag holdered coins, but first strike coins are "issued" in the first 30 days. They are not the first coins off the dies. I read in either NN or CW the mint has made the comments they don't FIFO (first in first out), and even if they did FIFO the coins could still be late stage dies. The dies only make so many coins.
I was not trying to start a controversy, I was trying to learn and understand the thinking behind these coins/holders.
It really makes one think though…
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>
<< <i>Actually what I think is funny is all these people that think they are 'experts' passing judgement on modern coins that they supposedly don't care about and don't collect. Which I actually do.
----
gosh, it is like arguing with a old person. read the posts my friend.
i highly doubt these first strike coins are what they are.
yet you seem soooo convinced. are you sure you know what FIFO
is? only food companies and other businesses work in that way
due to the product.
your first strikes could very well be the last coins made during the
run. my guess is just as good as yours. think about it. big carts
full of coins being put into a corner in a room. more coins come in.
more coins come in.
you truly think when it came time to ship they went to that corner
and grabbed the first ones? lol. ok. continue to think that. >>
I also collect moderns, but I usually buy direct from the mint. Once in a while I pick something up on the aftermarket. The labels do not mean anything to me, but it looks like they are very important to others. Just because I don't understand it, it doesn't mean those collectors are wrong. I, like many, have a graded set of state quarters. I liked the look of the flag holders, so I am building my set with flag holders. There is only a slight premium if any at all for the flag holdered coins, but first strike coins are "issued" in the first 30 days. They are not the first coins off the dies. I read in either NN or CW the mint has made the comments they don't FIFO (first in first out), and even if they did FIFO the coins could still be late stage dies. The dies only make so many coins.
I was not trying to start a controversy, I was trying to learn and understand the thinking behind these coins/holders.
It really makes one think though… >>
I think buy what you like and buy the coin not the holder sums it up rather well. Use the insert as a starting point not absolute fact.
For the same reason that they are willing to pay multiples of the MS69 price for an MS70, regardless of the fact that most MS69's are indistinguishable from MS70 examples. People are blinded by a competitive desire to have "the best" even when reason should tell them otherwise.
The "First Strikes" are nothing more than a marketing gimmick. Some might argue that they are also nothing less than a scandal.
Markets can remain irrational for a long time, but ultimately they find the right levels. The premiums paid for nonexistent differences in quality will eventually evaporate.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>On the 20th Anniversary ASE Proofs I could tell a difference. The coin appeared better struck with more defined lettering vs the non First Strike. >>
Actually, so do I, although I believe it has more to do with the strictness of PCGS graders at the time the first strikes were being graded more than any other reason. I am sure there are some choice non-FS DCAMS but PCGS has loosened the grading standards by then so they are "lost in the mud". My best looking DCAM by far is one of the very first FS DCAMS.
Reverse Proofs were the same way. Early in the grading, PCGS was grading a paultry 1.7% of FS RP's as 70. That ratio kept creeping up steadily until what? around 10% now? I haven't been keeping track for a while. I am sure it was the same for the DCAM FS, (very tight at first then loosening up the standard), but I didn't keep track of the starting 70/non70 ratio for that coin.
One thing about coins has never changed : The cream rises to the top.
First Strike is a trademark for coins that were released and slabbed within a short window of when they left the mint. Plain and simple. The beauty of the program is that the coin is (or should be) in it's original , untampered package as shipped from the mint. No more cherrypicking !!!
Why do people go nuts over them ?
I said that in my first post.
This is an illusion. People were nuts before the "First Strike" label.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
"First strike" pedigrees issued by third party graders are scams. They are scams because the coins are not guaranteed first strikes--the third party grader has no possible way to know when the coin was minted (again, ship date means nothing), because the US mint has no way of knowing when the coin was minted. The US mint has had several press releases regarding the bogus nature of any "first strike" designation.
The public at large is clueless when it comes to the modern minting process. Perhaps a century ago a "first strike" displayed sharper detail, simply because the dies wore out faster and the mint was tardy in replacing them. Thus it was ingrained into people's minds that first strikes will always display the best strike, and coins struck later in the process will be weak. That may have been true at one time, but it is no longer true. The mint replaces dies so often that you cannot tell any visible difference between a first strike or a last strike coin, or any coin struck in between. There may indeed be weaker and stronger struck coins, but it doesn't say anything about the date they were minted since die replacement is a continuous, ongoing process throughout the mintage procedure.
It is the false conception of "first strike" coupled with the third party grader's hype and lie-labels that cause these coins to be collectible beyond their "regular" counterparts. Because these coins are marketed with deception, and because the value is based on people believing that deception, there is no tangible premium inherent in the coins themselves. As such, they won't hold value long-term. They are a waste of money. When the truth is widespread, or when any TPG goes belly up, it is the first strike coins and stupid pedigrees that will faulter first and hardest.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
,,,,
Then again I don't believe that PCGS claims that the coins are the first ones off the press.
Maybe they should include this URL somewhere on the label.
I believe the origin of the “First Strike” idea stemmed from a number of collectors approaching Miles Standish a number of years ago asking him to please come up with a method to tell their earliest release coins received from the Mint(s) from the later received coins (as they obviously believed the earliest releases had added value). I recall some very early deals (including a British Mint?) where attempts were made to actually number the coins (i.e. #1, #2, etc.) as they were being produced off the presses by the Mint (which may have pre-dated Miles developing the First Strike concept). Over time, PCGS developed specific rules for “First Strike” to attempt to carry out “First Strike” on a consistent basis and I doubt anyone at PCGS will state that “First Strike” is about anything other than marketing, even when it is attacked as being a “marketing gimmick”.
First Strike would likely not exist if it were not for consumer demand and there is plenty of it. In some cases, the “First Strike” premium is virtually non-existent (e.g. a number of Platinum coins, some Proof Silver Eagles and even what we just saw with the early pricing of MS70 2007(w) Silver Eagles). In other cases, there is a small premium which the market has set. In the extreme cases (and just a couple coin types come to mind), there is a significant pricing differences between “First Strike” and non-First Strike coins. I know of one case where when PCGS discovered the extreme pricing difference, they simply did not include those coins in the Registry (and still not to this day I believe) to ensure that collectors did not have to” chase” those particular coins. But, for the most part, PCGS does not play any role in any market pricing related to First Strike, as they shouldn’t.
So, whether one hates or loves “First Strike” or ‘Early Release” or any other label placed on coins for the purpose of marketing them, there is no denying that this marketing idea has expanded unit growth at the grading companies and has likely brought many more new collectors into the marketplace. And, expanding the “base” is quite important, even to the classic dealers/collectors who can then explain to these new collectors (as many modern dealers do as well) that “First Strike” is nothing more than a marketing strategy and they should consider moving into this different area of coin collecting, or that different area. Personally, I can’t tell you how many times I have had that conversation with a new collector, pointing out that they can have the “same coin” without the First Strike label for less money and in most cases the reply is something to the effect “do you want to keep the First Strike coin for yourself - because if you do just say so”? The power of “First Strike” tm.
Wondercoin
You are an expert in Moderns and know how to pick 'em, or one of your associates does.
However, the fact remains, with FirstStrike™ it's impossible to pick the cherries, right ?
It's a matter of LUCK getting a 70 out of a submission that is blindly submitted. So, in essence, those who complain most about it really aren't the ones submitting. If anyone has a legitimate complaint it's the submitter who cannot even see what he's submitting. In this regard, First Strike™ causes me to "go nuts".
I just want to see what I'm sending in, as I am very picky.
This is my own personal catch 22 as I prepare a bulk order
Thank you for sharing , Wondercoin !
Joe
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The offensive aspect of "First Strike" in this context is that it is a misleading misnomer. In classical nuimismatics, terms such as "first strike," "early strike," "early die state" or EDS, and "very early die state" or VEDS, have a proper meaning and some real significance. The terms imply, of course, that the coin was struck early in the life of the dies. In those days, dies were often poorly made and deteriorated noticeably and rapidly. An EDS coin offers an opportunity to see the proper details from the dies, without die cracks, dishing, cuds, repolishing lines, loss of detail, rust pitting, and other aspects of die deterioration. First strike or early strike coins may also offer better impressions (because the die is still sharp), better surfaces, and more cameo contrast (where applicable). For example, DMPL Morgans are generally first or early strikes, rather than coins produced from special dies.
As we all know, the "First Strike" moderns are simply NOT guaranteed to be early strikes off the dies. We know very little about the numbers of dies used, die life, or when in the life cycle of the dies a particular coin might have been struck. These are simply "early shipments" or "early releases" - something which has NO correlation to the quality of the coins or their appearance. Thus it is not only a misnomer (because they are not necessarily first strikes), but it is also misleading (because the coins do not have the incrementally superior strike, surfaces, or appearance that the term might otherwise imply).
It is too kind to call this nothing more than a marketing ploy. I would be much happier if a more accurate term such as "Early Release" were used. One can only hope that the marketplace will assign an appropriately SMALL premium to this meaningless "limited edition" or "limited time only" style of offering.
One wonders when the profit-hungry Mint will catch on. If they offered REAL "First Strikes" and certified them appropriately, they would be able to reap a somewhat more justifiable profit by selling such items at a premium.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Yes, we ALL know that and they are NOT represented as such by PCGS or any reputable dealers that I know. Hence, it is all about marketing, just as nearly every business in America is about successfully marketing a product. Like... push, pull or drag your beat up old car in today for a minimum $8,000 trade in value against your new car buy -but, for today only! Perhaps tomorrow you can get the same $8,000 off without dragging a car in and possibly getting a hernia? Marketing, marketing, marketing!!!
Wondercoin
Perhaps I and my post will go *poof* ... but I must defend truth, justice, and the American way !!!
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Wondercoin
P.S. If "early release" results in big premiums for coins, isn't there the same "problem" of folks paying a big premium for coins which are not the early strikes??
This last question was in response to a now edited post....
wondercoin, I certainly hope that you and others make an express disclaimer when you offer items with this controversial designation to the public.
Edited to add: No - there is no problem with premiums paid for "Early Release." It is the consumer's right to determine the premium that s/he will pay for something, whether or not I agree with it. The problem arises from the misleading misrepresentation, which may lead a consumer to pay for something that s/he is not acutally getting. If I pay for a First Strike™ expecting a first strike, and don't get one, that is a problem. If I pay for an Early Release™ expecting an early release, and I do get an early release, that is not a problem.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
If the designation"early release" results in big premiums for coins, isn't there the same "problem" in your mind of folks paying a big premium for coins which are not the early strikes?
Wondercoin
Besides is an "early release" what Paris Hilton got?
<< <i>One may argue that PCGS and others are not "misrepresenting" anything as they are not claiming that the coins are actual first strikes. However, the term "First Strike" is a de facto representation. The phrase speaks for itself not only because it already carries an accepted meaning in numismatics, but because it has an implied meaning on its own. Res ipse loquitur !!! I will continue to exhort PCGS and others to use a more accurate, less misleading term, such as "Early Release."
wondercoin, I certainly hope that you and others make an express disclaimer when you offer items with this controversial designation to the public. >>
FYI, PCGS NOW states on the back of the First Strike insert.-
"Delivered within 30 days of initial relase:
With a link to the PCGS First Strike website
When I said that "we all know" these are not really first strikes, i was referring to the community on these message Boards. Anyone who is involved enough as a collector to be reading and posting here is not likely to be misled by this false designation. However, these coins are marketed to the general public. I have seen "First Strike" coins offered on the cable TV programs with all sorts of premium descriptions applied to them. Because the designation is inherently false, it will inevitably result in transactions based on misrepresentation.
Thus, even if PCGS and first-line dealers such as you strive to represent the coins accurately for what they are, there is still a problem here.
Edited to add: I'm glad PCGS has a statement on the back of the slab now. It should also explicitly state that the coin is not guaranteed to be a first or early strike from the dies.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>who can then explain to these new collectors (as many modern dealers do as well) that “First Strike” is nothing more than a marketing strategy >>
<< <i>First, you point out that EVERYONE knows what First Strike is all about. Think about that >>
Which is it, new collectors have to be explained by reputable dealers what it means, or everyone already knows?
Which is why I was asking you to address this issue - if the uneduated public is paying large premiums for designations that have no roots in classic numismatics whatsoever, isn't that in a way the same situation as uneduated buyers who know nothing about the classic history of a term such as "first strike" (assuming it is a term of art) paying a premium for those coins as well? Why are you "OK" with collectors paying a premium so long as the designation term is a "new fangled" term (which a board member just confused with Paris Hilton's release)?
Wondercoin
I have been mostly collecting and sometimes selling moderns since 1987, and I have not, or never will buy into FS holders.
Having said that, when I HAVE submitted coins for grading, every time I have gone to the effort of ONLY sending in my
best quality examples for grading. Sending in a bulk order might pay off for a dealer that buys them by the 1k's, but for
someone sending in a small order, or unopened box, it's just a crap shoot.
Also, I would NEVER sell someone a box that has never been opened, much less viewed.
As an example, I acquired 40-2006-W 20th anniversary Silver Eagle sets last year, and apon receiving eack box of 10,
set out to personally grading each and every coin as to best quality to worse. Then I sold the lesser sets at market value, between
$200.00 and $335.00. Now I am sitting on my TOP 12 sets out of 40. As most of you that bought these 3 piece sets have noticed,
a box of 10 MIGHT come up with 1-2 Reverse Proof, possible 70's, 2-4 MS70 possibles, and 1 or 2 PF70 possibles. By sorting these coins
I can say that out of 40 sets, these 12 sets ARE the BEST of 4 boxes. Shouldn't a 70 stand on it's own, regardless of what label is on the
holder?
A car dealer sells me a car that he calls a "Cadillac" ... when the car arrives from the factory, and I come to take delivery, it is a Hyundai.
"Hey, wait a minute," I say, "I ordered a Cadillac."
"Didn't you read the fine print on the back of the contract?" asks the dealer. "In this dealership, we use the term 'Cadillac™' to describe a Hyundai. EVERYONE around here knows that !!!"
"But I paid Cadillac money for this car," I protest.
"No, you paid Hyundai money, plus the market premium for our trademarked term 'Cadillac™' ..."
"Yeah, but I'm getting a (*&%^$ Hyundai. I thought I was getting a Cadillac. You told me it was a Cadillac."
"It's not a Cadillac," laughs the dealer. "It's a 'Cadillac™.' "
I guess we can't all hear the difference in pronunciation between Cadillac and "Cadillac™" ...
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>I have to voice my personal views on FS or any other special label holders.
I have been mostly collecting and sometimes selling moderns since 1987, and I have not, or never will buy into FS holders.
Having said that, when I HAVE submitted coins for grading, every time I have gone to the effort of ONLY sending in my
best quality examples for grading. Sending in a bulk order might pay off for a dealer that buys them by the 1k's, but for
someone sending in a small order, or unopened box, it's just a crap shoot.
Also, I would NEVER sell someone a box that has never been opened, much less viewed.
As an example, I acquired 40-2006-W 20th anniversary Silver Eagle sets last year, and apon receiving eack box of 10,
set out to personally grading each and every coin as to best quality to worse. Then I sold the lesser sets at market value, between
$200.00 and $335.00. Now I am sitting on my TOP 12 sets out of 40. As most of you that bought these 3 piece sets have noticed,
a box of 10 MIGHT come up with 1-2 Reverse Proof, possible 70's, 2-4 MS70 possibles, and 1 or 2 PF70 possibles. By sorting these coins
I can say that out of 40 sets, these 12 sets ARE the BEST of 4 boxes. Shouldn't a 70 stand on it's own, regardless of what label is on the
holder? >>
That is true, however no two coins of the same grade are the same, even 70's. Buyers will always pay a premium for PQ examples of a given grade.
<< <i>I agree with Sea Eagle - the first strikes were not necessarily struck first. The mint even admitted it.
So please don't pay a premium for a holder with a first strikes label on it - to me it doesn't mean anything.
Sure you can find well struck and high grade coins in first strike holders - you can also find them in non first strike holders. The mint uses lots of dies during the production run - you can get a coin off a fresh set of dies at virtually any time.
Why PCGS continues to produce first strike slabs is beyond me. >>
First Strike now really means FIRST SHIPPED, not First Struck Coin according to PCGS.
My question to you was directed at the other grading companies' new terms, not PCGS'.
Wondercoin
Conversely, in the present instance, you are getting nothing but a label. The Early Release coins will have no inherent difference from later released coins.
Edited to add (quoting from above):
"First Strike now really means FIRST SHIPPED, not First Struck Coin according to PCGS."
Great !! Now we have the truth !!!
Now why not just change the designation to FIRST SHIPPED ????
(Yes, I know the answer - it won't sell as well ...
Why not? Because "First Strike" sounds better ...
which is another way of saying, it succeeds better at inducing people to pay premiums ... )
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
I agree with you. And saying that, I would never guarantee a coin would grade MS of PF70.
But I can say with confidence that after sorting, my 12 sets out of 40 are the best pulled from said boxes of 10.
Wouldn't you rather have sets that have been cherrypicked over paying a huge premium to view an unopened box?
Fair enough - well, time for Sunday family time. Thanks for the nice discussion Sunnywood.
Wondercoin
<< <i>term is a "new fangled" term (which a board member just confused with Paris Hilton's release)?
"the problem is that this is not just a random "newfangled term." "
First Strike now really means FIRST SHIPPED, not First Struck Coin according to PCGS. >>
Now I'm confused..........
Hopefully, before they NARU me, the powers that be at PCGS will remember that I have spent even more time on my pro-PCGS soapbox than on my anti-First Strike soapbox !!!! Thank you PCGS, for providing a forum in which members can discuss their views - even views which are sometimes at odds with PCGS's own practices. For the record, let me state that my entire collection is housed exclusively in PCGS holders, as I believe the grading standards at PCGS are more accurate and more consistent over time than any other grading service.
Rarity - I agree, beautiful gold letters should carry some small premium. In fact, I have commented for some time that the services should develop a premium slab with an upgrade in quality and appearance. It always seemed odd to me that $20 moderns, $1000 collector coins, and $100,000 rarities are all in the same $1 piece of plastic.
I would pay some premium to have my sets in slabs with beautifully designed inserts with premium borders and gold embossed lettering !!!
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>FLBuffalo'
I agree with you. And saying that, I would never guarantee a coin would grade MS of PF70.
But I can say with confidence that after sorting, my 12 sets out of 40 are the best pulled from said boxes of 10.
Wouldn't you rather have sets that have been cherrypicked over paying a huge premium to view an unopened box? >>
I would say without seeing the coins, most people would rather buy the sealed box.
+1 going for 100!!!
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
Buy the coin, not the holder
I like coins. If they make the grade for eye appeal, luster and strike detail, does it matter what a label™ says ? I'd love to see how many guys actually bought "FirstStrike™" coins thinking they were getting "EARLY DIE STATE SPECIMENS". I suspect few purchased them for that reason.
There is a following, just like religion. We don't all go to the same church and we don't all wear the same shoes. Those who make a fuss about marketing genius really should picket WALMART. This is AMERICA and it's good that we have this forum to discuss issues that deal with our hobby, but to make it sound as if one company is bamboozling Joe Public borders on "NUTS". The boys across the street lost out on the "firststrike" label , and so now, they call them "early release".
I should have just left well enough alone, but ...
I'll say it again... People were nuts before the "First Strike™" label.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
And my point to that statement is this...
Most modern collectors will not go to the trouble of picking out the best coins available. Most have more $$$ than sense.
They would rather put their trust in a grading company's label than checking numerous examples for the best quality.
Otherwise you would see very little collectors purchasing products from QVC?
No research= Big bucks spent= Very Ill customer when it comes time to sell!
From the PCGS Lingo page in March 2006:
first strike
A coin struck early in the life of a die. First strikes sometimes are characterized by striated or mirror-like fields if the die was polished. Almost always fully or well struck, with crisp detail.
How many thousands of PCGS First Strike holders were made prior to this being changed and the new definition being put on their website. PCGS has been back tracking trying to cover there hind quarters for the past year. I do give props to PCGS finally putting the disclaimer on the label if the above post stating such is true.
Wondercoin, I commend your full disclosure of the PCGS First Strike meaning. However, these are often sold as what they are not. Just go to ebay. I didn't have to go very far down the search list to find this False First Strike Claim.
There is no confusion here between the term "Early Release" and Paris Hilton.
It was an attempt at humor and I used the official forum designation
I think most here do agree that an attempt to mislead someone (for profit) is unethical and in many cases illegal. If I do sell a First Strike coin, I will link to PCGS's explanation so that the buyer has all of the facts they need to make their decision.
<< <i>First Strike now really means FIRST SHIPPED, not First Struck Coin according to PCGS. >>
This is sad.
Mind you...PCGS wants to be THE BEST TPG company out there. I know they are making money BUT this sure isn't the best way they can show us. The high road (that should be followed by THE BEST) doesn't, or should I say SHOULDN'T, follow this path.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5