Why do people go so nuts over MS70 First Strikes v. MS 70 Regular?
fcloud
Posts: 12,133 ✭✭✭✭
Is there really any difference? It is nothing more than a label isn't it.
If you get a regular MS70 the quality isn't any different the a First Strike is it?
Please educate me.
If you get a regular MS70 the quality isn't any different the a First Strike is it?
Please educate me.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
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Comments
<< <i>On the 20th Anniversary ASE Proofs I could tell a difference. The coin appeared better struck with more defined lettering vs the non First Strike. >>
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<< <i>First strike pretty much means submitted once and only once (along with the early ship date). With the wide price difference, a lot of 69s get sent back in for their shot at 70s. Does a collector want a first shot 70? Or a recycled 70, perhaps sent in five or more times before getting the grade? >>
Why would anyone recycle these through? I would think again, it would be easier to search fresh coins when looking for MS70. It wouldn't take much to put a hairline on a rim cracking these things out.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>On the 20th Anniversary ASE Proofs I could tell a difference. The coin appeared better struck with more defined lettering vs the non First Strike. >>
That is a good joke!
<< <i> On the 20th Anniversary ASE Proofs I could tell a difference. The coin appeared better struck with more defined lettering vs the non First Strike. >>
That is a good joke >>
somehow i don't think he was kidding..
<< <i>
<< <i>On the 20th Anniversary ASE Proofs I could tell a difference. The coin appeared better struck with more defined lettering vs the non First Strike. >>
That is a good joke!
Actually, it's true.
<< <i>with the US Mint's statement of denial of any sort of record keeping of when which Eagles are struck, I think its the luck of the draw as far as who gets better strikes. >>
That is true, however I believe you have a better chance of receiving a coin struck with a fresh die with the First Strike coins rather from one that could have been minted later on.
<< <i>
<< <i>with the US Mint's statement of denial of any sort of record keeping of when which Eagles are struck, I think its the luck of the draw as far as who gets better strikes. >>
That is true, however I believe you have a better chance of receiving a coin struck with a fresh die with the First Strike coins rather from one that could have been minted later on. >>
<< <i>
I agree, it's very
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>with the US Mint's statement of denial of any sort of record keeping of when which Eagles are struck, I think its the luck of the draw as far as who gets better strikes. >>
That is true, however I believe you have a better chance of receiving a coin struck with a fresh die with the First Strike coins rather from one that could have been minted later on. >>
if there was a record of "first strike" coins, I would agree. If first strikes meant frsh dies then all of those would be MS70's. Ive seen MS68's touted as first strikes
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>with the US Mint's statement of denial of any sort of record keeping of when which Eagles are struck, I think its the luck of the draw as far as who gets better strikes. >>
That is true, however I believe you have a better chance of receiving a coin struck with a fresh die with the First Strike coins rather from one that could have been minted later on. >>
if there was a record of "first strike" coins, I would agree. If first strikes meant frsh dies then all of those would be MS70's. Ive seen MS68's touted as first strikes >>
That is why I said you have a better chance. It has definetly been my experience that overall coins delivered within the 30 day window are generally nicer strikes. I also believe that is why you see some crazy prices on certain First Strike vs non First Strike coins.
In early, definitley less chance of a recycled set.
I am sure the way the Mint sells, they work on a FIFO inventory system.
<< <i>
<< <i>with the US Mint's statement of denial of any sort of record keeping of when which Eagles are struck, I think its the luck of the draw as far as who gets better strikes. >>
That is true, however I believe you have a better chance of receiving a coin struck with a fresh die with the First Strike coins rather from one that could have been minted later on. >>
OK...I have been trying to stay out of this gosh darn debate...but enough is enough...
...has anyone here ever worked in a production plant or on an assembly line where an item or items are being mass produced?
...first, the items come off the line/press/whatever...then they are packed into whatever packing has been decided upon...then they are piled up/stacked on a pallet or a rack of some sort...then they are moved into a storage area...
...then, when it is time to ship, unless the items coming off the 'line' were marked by number, there is absolutely no way to know which were made first...as a matter of fact...the most likely to be shipped first will be the last ones wheeled into the storage area...
...now, if I understand what has been said by the Mint on all this...they ARE NOT labeling the boxes until it is time to ship...
SOOOOOOO...all these so-called 1st strikes are really just FIRST SHIPPED...
My problem with all this modern stuff is not a matter of Modern vs. Classics...
...it is a matter of absolute goofiness vs. common sense...
...it is a matter of gullible consumers/collectors/investors/speculators who cherish labels over true quality vs. educated consumers/collectors/investors/specualtors who DO NOT DRINK THE KOOL-AID just because the King says that it is good for you !!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>with the US Mint's statement of denial of any sort of record keeping of when which Eagles are struck, I think its the luck of the draw as far as who gets better strikes. >>
That is true, however I believe you have a better chance of receiving a coin struck with a fresh die with the First Strike coins rather from one that could have been minted later on. >>
OK...I have been trying to stay out of this gosh darn debate...but enough is enough...
...has anyone here ever worked in a production plant or on an assembly line where an item or items are being mass produced?
...first, the items come off the line/press/whatever...then they are packed into whatever packing has been decided upon...then they are piled up/stacked on a pallet or a rack of some sort...then they are moved into a storage area...
...then, when it is time to ship, unless the items coming off the 'line' were marked by number, there is absolutely no way to know which were made first...as a matter of fact...the most likely to be shipped first will be the last ones wheeled into the storage area...
...now, if I understand what has been said by the Mint on all this...they ARE NOT labeling the boxes until it is time to ship...
SOOOOOOO...all these so-called 1st strikes are really just FIRST SHIPPED...
My problem with all this modern stuff is not a matter of Modern vs. Classics...
...it is a matter of absolute goofiness vs. common sense...
...it is a matter of gullible consumers/collectors/investors/speculators who cherish labels over true quality vs. educated consumers/collectors/investors/specualtors who DO NOT DRINK THE KOOL-AID just because the King says that it is good for you !!!!! >>
To me it's a matter of buying what you like. And if I like First strike coins, that's good enough for me.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>with the US Mint's statement of denial of any sort of record keeping of when which Eagles are struck, I think its the luck of the draw as far as who gets better strikes. >>
That is true, however I believe you have a better chance of receiving a coin struck with a fresh die with the First Strike coins rather from one that could have been minted later on. >>
OK...I have been trying to stay out of this gosh darn debate...but enough is enough...
...has anyone here ever worked in a production plant or on an assembly line where an item or items are being mass produced?
...first, the items come off the line/press/whatever...then they are packed into whatever packing has been decided upon...then they are piled up/stacked on a pallet or a rack of some sort...then they are moved into a storage area...
...then, when it is time to ship, unless the items coming off the 'line' were marked by number, there is absolutely no way to know which were made first...as a matter of fact...the most likely to be shipped first will be the last ones wheeled into the storage area...
...now, if I understand what has been said by the Mint on all this...they ARE NOT labeling the boxes until it is time to ship...
SOOOOOOO...all these so-called 1st strikes are really just FIRST SHIPPED...
My problem with all this modern stuff is not a matter of Modern vs. Classics...
...it is a matter of absolute goofiness vs. common sense...
...it is a matter of gullible consumers/collectors/investors/speculators who cherish labels over true quality vs. educated consumers/collectors/investors/specualtors who DO NOT DRINK THE KOOL-AID just because the King says that it is good for you !!!!! >>
To me it's a matter of buying what you like. And if I like First strike coins, that's good enough for me. >>
But why are the worth more?
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>But why are the worth more? >>
I thought I already answered that.
I wouldn't mind buying a true 1st strike coin...I just do not see the sense in paying an extreme premium for a coin that is in a holder that says "First Strike" when I know that it would only be true by some extreme stroke of luck...as it is, I would only be paying for a 1st opinion of a grade...
...but then, no coin that has ever been submitted ever got graded at a lower grade on a second submission ...right?
I do agree...buy what you like...it is your money and your collection...
BTW...do you like bridges?...I've got a real nice one I can sell you...
Velocity, Not Valuation Defines A Bubble.
<< <i>Why do people go so nuts over MS70 vs. MS69? Most of us can't tell the difference, but we'll pay hundreds more for the 70! >>
Registry sets. Another example of a TPG marketing decision which alters markets.
<< <i>"To me it's a matter of buying what you like. And if I like First strike coins, that's good enough for me. "
I wouldn't mind buying a true 1st strike coin...I just do not see the sense in paying an extreme premium for a coin that is in a holder that says "First Strike" when I know that it would only be true by some extreme stroke of luck...as it is, I would only be paying for a 1st opinion of a grade...
...but then, no coin that has ever been submitted ever got graded at a lower grade on a second submission ...right?
I do agree...buy what you like...it is your money and your collection...
BTW...do you like bridges?...I've got a real nice one I can sell you...
I like First Strike coins because like I said, to me, they are generally, not always, but generally, better struck. That is my experience and which is why I believe you see many collectors paying a premium for the coins. I wouldn't pay it since I would rather get them from the mint, but to some people it must be worth the crazy money they are paying for them.
So please don't pay a premium for a holder with a first strikes label on it - to me it doesn't mean anything.
Sure you can find well struck and high grade coins in first strike holders - you can also find them in non first strike holders. The mint uses lots of dies during the production run - you can get a coin off a fresh set of dies at virtually any time.
Why PCGS continues to produce first strike slabs is beyond me.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
The bottom line is that TPG marketing trumps common sense.
How true. It is just mind boggling what zombies fall for after the TPG's start the hype. In hindsight you folks that are 'common sense' challenged will see the light.
I think that first strike for a modern coin is ludicrous. Dies today are designed to strike hundreds of thousands of coins before there is any noticeable wear.
If this concept was derived in the early 20th century or before I would gladly pay a grand premium for a first strike. Dies erroded far faster then than they do now.
Look at Barber proofs. The reason there are so few deep cameos is because the dies wore incredible fast. The cameo effect was lost in a matter of twenty or so coins, then the proofs would look "watery" after that.
A deep cameo Barber proof is undoubtably a first strike and well worth a high premium. It is a RARE coin. Today dies are hardened and plated to increase the resistance to wear a great deal. I just don't get the first strike hype at all.
There seem to be many speculators of modern coinage on the boards lately. A small word of advice to the modern speculator/ collector would be to never buy a coin that is worth more in the holder than not.
Ask yourself if a MS70 First strike is worth the same out of its holder?
Everyone is entitled to his/ her opinion. I could be very wrong about first strikes. Maybe the lettering is more defined. I guess I'd have to see a bunch of first strikes vs non first strikes.
Do you know how many coins are minted from each set of working dies?
100,000?
200,000?
600,000?
I will give you approximate numbers for cents- an area I am more familiar with, I assume that the numbers aren't all that different for the different series, and if they are different, they are probably worse because cents are "easier" on the dies.
By numismatic definitions not the TPG's label's:
Very Early Die State (VEDS) are the first struck from the dies- usually 200-800 coins minted here.
Early Die State (EDS) have most of the VEDS markers- usually 15,000-25,000 coins minted here.
Mid Die State (MDS) have lost most of the microscopic markers and many macroscopic markers-usually 40,000-65,000 coins minted here.
Late Die State (LDS) most elements have lost ALL their sharpness here- usually 125,000-200,000 coins minted here.
Very Late Die State (VLDS) all major detail is poor- usually 200,000 to die retirement minted here.
Now you can guess the speed the mint is banging these coins out so you can imagine how many die sets the mint is using during that "window" for the TPG's to walk through. Now which coin is in YOUR First Strike plastic--an EDS or maybe a LDS or maybe even a VLDS.
Bottom line----there is no way to say that First Strike labels signify any different quality coins than non First Strike Plastic, hence the argument against.
<< <i>Quick question FLBuffaloHunter.
Do you know how many coins are minted from each set of working dies?
100,000?
200,000?
600,000?
I will give you approximate numbers for cents- an area I am more familiar with, I assume that the numbers aren't all that different for the different series, and if they are different, they are probably worse because cents are "easier" on the dies.
By numismatic definitions not the TPG's label's:
Very Early Die State (VEDS) are the first struck from the dies- usually 200-800 coins minted here.
Early Die State (EDS) have most of the VEDS markers- usually 15,000-25,000 coins minted here.
Mid Die State (MDS) have lost most of the microscopic markers and many macroscopic markers-usually 40,000-65,000 coins minted here.
Late Die State (LDS) most elements have lost ALL their sharpness here- usually 125,000-200,000 coins minted here.
Very Late Die State (VLDS) all major detail is poor- usually 200,000 to die retirement minted here.
Now you can guess the speed the mint is banging these coins out so you can imagine how many die sets the mint is using during that "window" for the TPG's to walk through. Now which coin is in YOUR First Strike plastic--an EDS or maybe a LDS or maybe even a VLDS.
Bottom line----there is no way to say that First Strike labels signify any different quality coins than non First Strike Plastic, hence the argument against. >>
I have no clue how many coins the Mint strikes per die. I do know what my eyes see and this is what I am stating. I do beleive you should buy what you like and agreee you should buy the coin not the holder.
If classic coins had a graded once label, those graded once coins would trade for a significant premium over the others. Modern collectors have that in First Strike. Ten or twenty or 50 years from now, I'd much rather have a First Strike 70 than a possibly recycled 70 that might have been sent in ten times by ten different owners before getting that 70.
and the first grade can be just as wrong as the last.
<< <i>P.T. Barnum was right....... >>
Yes he was.
First Strike
Best Regards,
John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>P.T. Barnum was right....... >>
So true...funny part was after he made his famous statement....nothing changed
<< <i>First strike pretty much means submitted once and only once (along with the early ship date). With the wide price difference, a lot of 69s get sent back in for their shot at 70s. Does a collector want a first shot 70? Or a recycled 70, perhaps sent in five or more times before getting the grade? >>
mmmm....not really. It means "not cracked out and resubmitted", true, but it doesn't mean "submitted once". I have a few MS 2006-W 20th Annv SAEs that I disagreed with the grade, resubmitted, and HRH agreed with me. They kept the "1st strike" and "20th Annv" labels.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Pardon my ignorance as I'm kind of new to all this TPG biz, but if one re-submitted a FS-68 coin for a re-grade would it not come back with a FS label if it received an up-grade? Or would it be better to crack it and submit it raw?
Best Regards,
John >>
If you send it in the holder it will retain the First Strike designation. Once removed it will lose the designation.
<< <i>As to the question why recycle, the submitter already has the coins. Most moderns are sent by the box to qualify for the lower rate. A submitter can compare his/her 70s to those that did not make the grade and pick out the 5% or so that look the same and send them back in. Probably only a small percentage of those will get 70.
If classic coins had a graded once label, those graded once coins would trade for a significant premium over the others. Modern collectors have that in First Strike. Ten or twenty or 50 years from now, I'd much rather have a First Strike 70 than a possibly recycled 70 that might have been sent in ten times by ten different owners before getting that 70. >>
That still doesn't make sense. You can't see the rim, and if there is a very tiny mark on the rim the coin will 69. The only way it would go 70 is if the graders made an error.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
<< <i>I'll apologize in advance but P.T. Barnum never said "there's a sucker born every minute" Somehow or another it was attributed to him.
John >>
You are correct. IIRC it was said by a con man named Joseph Bessimer (?), but when the quote was attributed to Barnum by a competitor in an effort to discredit him Barnum never denied making the statement.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll apologize in advance but P.T. Barnum never said "there's a sucker born every minute" Somehow or another it was attributed to him.
John >>
You are correct. IIRC it was said by a con man named Joseph Bessimer (?), but when the quote was attributed to Barnum by a competitor in an effort to discredit him Barnum never denied making the statement. >>
This link attributes the phrase "a sucker is born every minute" to Joseph Hannum of Syracuse, NY, who bought the rights to exhibit the Cardiff Giant.
I agree, though. I'd rather pay a 19th century admission charge to see the Cardiff Giant than pay a 21st century premium to get a NCLT bullion coin with "first strike" on a private company's descriptive label.
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<< <i>
I believe we are both doubling over in laughter at the idea that MS 70 first strikes are better strikes than MS70 regular.
They're all moderns and done the same. There's no difference. People are paying premiums up the yazoo, IMHO only, for the slab.
You cannot jump any higher in Nike shoes and you can't golf any better in them.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>I will be receiving my Presidential proof sets sets this week because they shipped late last week. Are these worth doing the first strike labels, or should I just enjoy them in their government holders? >>
This is a totally different question and a different game than the original topic!
But since you asked.................
What you need to do is order the maximum allowable!
Then, send them all in for First Strike™ labels.
When you get em back, pick out the ones you want to keep then sell the rest on EBay to cover all your costs and pocket the difference so you can so it all over again next year!
By the time the series ends, you'll have made
<< <i>millions >>
and will have the best coins available for free!
The name is LEE!
lol. that is truly funny.
i won't say what i think because i will offend you.
......then it MUST BE SO!
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards