<< <i>...since Dr. Kagin is a governor (and dealer), this applies to him.
Puhleeez. Let us not refer to him as "Dr. Kagin". As far as I am concerned, and with all do respect to him as a coin dealer and ANA governor, that degree is a farce. >>
Only MD's should be addressed as Doctor? >>
No, anyone who completed a legitimate doctorate program can be referred to as "Doctor". Frankly, I find no use for the title anyway. I introduce myself to patients, colleagues, and subordinates by my first and last name and encourage them to call me by my first name.
Don Kagin's PhD thesis became the basis for his book on privately issued gold coins which is currently the standard reference in this field of numismatics.
Should we refer to Doug Winter as "Dr. Winter"? He has written numerous books that are reference standards.
I have been of legal age for 20 years now. Ever since I was a kid, my first and immediate impression of people has proved right 95% of the time. This "hunch" on people has carried over into my career and the company I work for to a degree they ask my opinion on people we purpose to take on as clients. With that little bit of background, I would tell you that I have had a couple of potential dealing with Don that left the hair on the back of my neck raised. I do not trust him.... His dad on the other hand seemed quite ok.
I'm a lawyer with a Juris Doctor degree, as well as an LL.M. degree (Masters of Laws in Taxation). I would like to hereinafter be known as Dr. Longacre. I earned it, too.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>I'm a lawyer with a Juris Doctor degree, as well as an LL.M. degree (Masters of Laws in Taxation). I would like to hereinafter be known as Dr. Longacre. I earned it, too. >>
<< <i>I'm a lawyer with a Juris Doctor degree, as well as an LL.M. degree (Masters of Laws in Taxation). I would like to hereinafter be known as Dr. Longacre. I earned it, too. >>
Amen >>
Around 1970 I sent in $10 (I think it was an ad in the back of Rolling Stone) or so to be ordained a minister (There was a lot of that back then). So... I wish you all to address as "The Reverened Flyfishguy"
I don't know whether this whole scenario is more funny or pathetic. From what I have read on this forum, here's the deal:
Manley buys a unique gold ingot, on which Kagin was the underbidder. Manley deems this ingot to be so important that he puts it in his garage, presumably, with garden tools, trash bins, etc., and forgets about it. A few months later, he realizes it has been stolen because someone got the bar to Kagin (the underbidder) who tried to broker it and a new potential buyer recognized it as belonging to Manley.
Is the above correct?
If so, it doesn't speak well of Manley to buy a unique item, put it in the garage and forget about it. If I buy a coin for $200, it goes in the safety deposit box at the bank.
It also doesn't speak well of Kagin. Being the underbidder on this item, he surely knew what it was when it was presented to him. If for no other reason, the uniqueness of the item and Kagin's familiarity with should have immediately made him contact Manley about it, which apparently, he did not do.
If the above is not correct, apologies to all parties involved. If the above is correct, in my opinion, what has transpired makes the former look like an idiot, and the latter look like thief.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
It also doesn't speak well of Kagin. Being the underbidder on this item, he surely knew what it was when it was presented to him. If for no other reason, the uniqueness of the item and Kagin's familiarity with should have immediately made him contact Manley about it, which apparently, he did not do.
I no longer have access to my CW. Was Kagin brokering the deal for less than it sold at the previous auction he was underbidder on? If my memory serves me correct, it was for less. If so, why in the world would Kagin not call Manley and ask " Why didn't you offer to sell it to me first ? ". There is just no explanations that Kagin can give to convince me. They obviously have a history.
I don't need to hear Kagin's side of the story. His excuses of "It depends on how you define 'is' " won't convince me. If it was a $1k coin, OK, but not on a unigue ingot. None of his BS can make anything but the obvious fly.
<< <i>I don't know whether this whole scenario is more funny or pathetic. From what I have read on this forum, here's the deal:
Manley buys a unique gold ingot, on which Kagin was the underbidder. Manley deems this ingot to be so important that he puts it in his garage, presumably, with garden tools, trash bins, etc., and forgets about it. A few months later, he realizes it has been stolen because someone got the bar to Kagin (the underbidder) who tried to broker it and a new potential buyer recognized it as belonging to Manley.
Is the above correct?
If so, it doesn't speak well of Manley to buy a unique item, put it in the garage and forget about it. If I buy a coin for $200, it goes in the safety deposit box at the bank.
It also doesn't speak well of Kagin. Being the underbidder on this item, he surely knew what it was when it was presented to him. If for no other reason, the uniqueness of the item and Kagin's familiarity with should have immediately made him contact Manley about it, which apparently, he did not do.
If the above is not correct, apologies to all parties involved. If the above is correct, in my opinion, what has transpired makes the former look like an idiot, and the latter look like thief. >>
The fact that Manley stowed a gold ingot in his garage is of no importance to the discussion. For what he's probably worth, the ingot was chump change. It would be no different than you or I forgetting about a coin we stashed around the house somewhere. And I'm sure you won't find volunteers here on what they've stashed on their premises (lol).
It takes far more than a PhD, handling every rarity in the book, and having a family tree of coin dealers to impress me. What matters is how dealers treated their customers and peers over the years. And it's often overlooked when assessing a long time career in numismatics.
<< <i>I will say that this hearing was supposed to be the main event of the "RYK-Central States coin weekend in St. Louis" package.: Manley vs. Kagin >>
There are some SCDs for boxing matches. Should someone make a Manley vs Kagin SCD?
It also doesn't speak well of Kagin. Being the underbidder on this item, he surely knew what it was when it was presented to him. If for no other reason, the uniqueness of the item and Kagin's familiarity with should have immediately made him contact Manley about it, which apparently, he did not do.
Again:
Of course Don knew what it was. However, he didn't know who bought it at the auction. Even if he had, more than six years has passed since the bar was sold at auction. He had no reason to believe the bar was stolen, nor had Dwight reported anything stolen.
Was Kagin brokering the deal for less than it sold at the previous auction he was underbidder on? If my memory serves me correct, it was for less.
The bar was being offered to Don for multiples of what it had brought at auction. He did not buy it outright because in his mind it was not "too cheap". Instead, he tried to broker it for 10%.
This whole situation is moronic.
And as for our brilliant Legend, I'm impressed that you know where all five 1913 Liberty nickels are. You are quite the expert. Clearly not guided by legal counsel, but an expert nonetheless.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The bar was being offered to Don for multiples of what it had brought at auction. >>
I don't know any details of this, but I find this part interesting.
It implies that the person who offered it to Don knew exactly what it was - which means that it found it's way from the thief (who I understood to be a handyman or some other person working on Manley's home) not to some pawn shop where it was sold for bullion value, but instead (or maybe eventually) to a knowledgeable dealer of some kind.
Is the official charge one of conspiracy, or is it some violation of the ANA ethics rules? In either case, both charges are very hard to prove, and Kagin walks. So maybe this is much ado about nothing.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
It implies that the person who offered it to Don knew exactly what it was - which means that it found it's way from the thief (who I understood to be a handyman or some other person working on Manley's home) not to some pawn shop where it was sold for bullion value, but instead (or maybe eventually) to a knowledgeable dealer of some kind.
The details in the press were clear. The bar walked into a local shop. It was purchased dirt cheap. The shop owner knew what he had and allowed a vest pocket dealer to broker the bar to Don, who in turn was allowed to broker the bar. Don chose to offer the bar to another extremely active and knowledgeable dealer/collector, who obviously knows Dwight well. This is yet one more reason to believe that Don had no idea that this bar was stolen. It's not like he offered it to a local mobster with the warning that the bar would need to be hidden away for a couple of generations. He offered it to one of Dwight's buddies.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The details in the press were clear. The bar walked into a local shop. It was purchased dirt cheap. The shop owner knew what he had and allowed a vest pocket dealer to broker the bar to Don, who in turn was allowed to broker the bar. Don chose to offer the bar to another extremely active and knowledgeable dealer/collector, who obviously knows Dwight well. This is yet one more reason to believe that Don had no idea that this bar was stolen. It's not like he offered it to a local mobster with the warning that the bar would need to be hidden away for a couple of generations. He offered it to one of Dwight's buddies. >>
If that is accurate I do not see any grounds for a case.
Yet Dwight, a reasonable and very bright guy, does. It will be fascinating to learn exactly how Dwight came to believe this, and I'm confident that Don will have the last laugh.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>The fact that Manley stowed a gold ingot in his garage is of no importance to the discussion. For what he's probably worth, the ingot was chump change. It would be no different than you or I forgetting about a coin we stashed around the house somewhere. And I'm sure you won't find volunteers here on what they've stashed on their premises (lol).
Agreed. He could stick it (you insert "where") and it would have no relevance at all to the case.
(snip)... What matters is how dealers treated their customers and peers over the years. And it's often overlooked when assessing a long time career in numismatics.
As far as a media circus, you guys are right! NN and CW just clog the streets when they are chasing a story! But who knows, maybe CNN will find this case much more exctiing than the coyote that ran into a store in Chicago a few weeks ago....
They got a lot more mileage out of the rats in the NYC Taco Bell...
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>...since Dr. Kagin is a governor (and dealer), this applies to him.
Puhleeez. Let us not refer to him as "Dr. Kagin". As far as I am concerned, and with all do respect to him as a coin dealer and ANA governor, that degree is a farce. >>
Only MD's should be addressed as Doctor?
No, anyone who completed a legitimate doctorate program can be referred to as "Doctor". Frankly, I find no use for the title anyway. I introduce myself to patients, colleagues, and subordinates by my first and last name and encourage them to call me by my first name.
Don Kagin's PhD thesis became the basis for his book on privately issued gold coins which is currently the standard reference in this field of numismatics.
Should we refer to Doug Winter as "Dr. Winter"? He has written numerous books that are reference standards.
Just my 6th sense 2 cents worth.
Rainbow Stars
On another note - how dumb is it to keep a gold bar on a shelf in your garage? heh, while you have strangers working in your
house too!
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>I'm a lawyer with a Juris Doctor degree, as well as an LL.M. degree (Masters of Laws in Taxation). I would like to hereinafter be known as Dr. Longacre. I earned it, too. >>
Amen
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm a lawyer with a Juris Doctor degree, as well as an LL.M. degree (Masters of Laws in Taxation). I would like to hereinafter be known as Dr. Longacre. I earned it, too. >>
Amen
Around 1970 I sent in $10 (I think it was an ad in the back of Rolling Stone) or so to be ordained a minister (There was a lot of that back then). So... I wish you all to address as "The Reverened Flyfishguy"
Thank you very much.
Manley buys a unique gold ingot, on which Kagin was the underbidder. Manley deems this ingot to be so important that he puts it in his garage, presumably, with garden tools, trash bins, etc., and forgets about it. A few months later, he realizes it has been stolen because someone got the bar to Kagin (the underbidder) who tried to broker it and a new potential buyer recognized it as belonging to Manley.
Is the above correct?
If so, it doesn't speak well of Manley to buy a unique item, put it in the garage and forget about it. If I buy a coin for $200, it goes in the safety deposit box at the bank.
It also doesn't speak well of Kagin. Being the underbidder on this item, he surely knew what it was when it was presented to him. If for no other reason, the uniqueness of the item and Kagin's familiarity with should have immediately made him contact Manley about it, which apparently, he did not do.
If the above is not correct, apologies to all parties involved. If the above is correct, in my opinion, what has transpired makes the former look like an idiot, and the latter look like thief.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
It also doesn't speak well of Kagin. Being the underbidder on this item, he surely knew what it was when it was presented to him. If for no other reason, the uniqueness of the item and Kagin's familiarity with should have immediately made him contact Manley about it, which apparently, he did not do.
I no longer have access to my CW. Was Kagin brokering the deal for less than it sold at the previous auction he was underbidder on? If my memory serves me correct, it was for less. If so, why in the world would Kagin not call Manley and ask " Why didn't you offer to sell it to me first ? ". There is just no explanations that Kagin can give to convince me. They obviously have a history.
I don't need to hear Kagin's side of the story. His excuses of "It depends on how you define 'is' " won't convince me. If it was a $1k coin, OK, but not on a unigue ingot. None of his BS can make anything but the obvious fly.
Jerry
<< <i>I think that the hearing should be open if that's what Don Kagin wants as the accused. >>
<< <i>I don't know whether this whole scenario is more funny or pathetic. From what I have read on this forum, here's the deal:
Manley buys a unique gold ingot, on which Kagin was the underbidder. Manley deems this ingot to be so important that he puts it in his garage, presumably, with garden tools, trash bins, etc., and forgets about it. A few months later, he realizes it has been stolen because someone got the bar to Kagin (the underbidder) who tried to broker it and a new potential buyer recognized it as belonging to Manley.
Is the above correct?
If so, it doesn't speak well of Manley to buy a unique item, put it in the garage and forget about it. If I buy a coin for $200, it goes in the safety deposit box at the bank.
It also doesn't speak well of Kagin. Being the underbidder on this item, he surely knew what it was when it was presented to him. If for no other reason, the uniqueness of the item and Kagin's familiarity with should have immediately made him contact Manley about it, which apparently, he did not do.
If the above is not correct, apologies to all parties involved. If the above is correct, in my opinion, what has transpired makes the former look like an idiot, and the latter look like thief. >>
Jeff,
I think that you summed it up quite well.
Jerry
And I'm sure you won't find volunteers here on what they've stashed on their premises (lol).
It takes far more than a PhD, handling every rarity in the book, and having a family tree of coin dealers to impress me. What matters is how dealers treated their customers and peers over the years. And it's often overlooked when assessing a long time career in numismatics.
roadrunner
<< <i>I will say that this hearing was supposed to be the main event of the "RYK-Central States coin weekend in St. Louis" package.: Manley vs. Kagin >>
There are some SCDs for boxing matches. Should someone make a Manley vs Kagin SCD?
Again:
Of course Don knew what it was. However, he didn't know who bought it at the auction. Even if he had, more than six years has passed since the bar was sold at auction. He had no reason to believe the bar was stolen, nor had Dwight reported anything stolen.
Was Kagin brokering the deal for less than it sold at the previous auction he was underbidder on? If my memory serves me correct, it was for less.
The bar was being offered to Don for multiples of what it had brought at auction. He did not buy it outright because in his mind it was not "too cheap". Instead, he tried to broker it for 10%.
This whole situation is moronic.
And as for our brilliant Legend, I'm impressed that you know where all five 1913 Liberty nickels are. You are quite the expert. Clearly not guided by legal counsel, but an expert nonetheless.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
When you put it that way, it sounds like this is much ado about nothing. As the Coin World turns...
<< <i>The bar was being offered to Don for multiples of what it had brought at auction. >>
I don't know any details of this, but I find this part interesting.
It implies that the person who offered it to Don knew exactly what it was - which means that it found it's way from the thief (who I understood to be a handyman or some other person working on Manley's home) not to some pawn shop where it was sold for bullion value, but instead (or maybe eventually) to a knowledgeable dealer of some kind.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
The details in the press were clear. The bar walked into a local shop. It was purchased dirt cheap. The shop owner knew what he had and allowed a vest pocket dealer to broker the bar to Don, who in turn was allowed to broker the bar. Don chose to offer the bar to another extremely active and knowledgeable dealer/collector, who obviously knows Dwight well. This is yet one more reason to believe that Don had no idea that this bar was stolen. It's not like he offered it to a local mobster with the warning that the bar would need to be hidden away for a couple of generations. He offered it to one of Dwight's buddies.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The details in the press were clear. The bar walked into a local shop. It was purchased dirt cheap. The shop owner knew what he had and allowed a vest pocket dealer to broker the bar to Don, who in turn was allowed to broker the bar. Don chose to offer the bar to another extremely active and knowledgeable dealer/collector, who obviously knows Dwight well. This is yet one more reason to believe that Don had no idea that this bar was stolen. It's not like he offered it to a local mobster with the warning that the bar would need to be hidden away for a couple of generations. He offered it to one of Dwight's buddies. >>
Thanks for the info -
<< <i> He had no reason to believe the bar was stolen, nor had Dwight reported anything stolen. >>
If that is accurate I do not see any grounds for a case.
Yet Dwight, a reasonable and very bright guy, does. It will be fascinating to learn exactly how Dwight came to believe this, and I'm confident that Don will have the last laugh.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>The fact that Manley stowed a gold ingot in his garage is of no importance to the discussion. For what he's probably worth, the ingot was chump change. It would be no different than you or I forgetting about a coin we stashed around the house somewhere.
And I'm sure you won't find volunteers here on what they've stashed on their premises (lol).
Agreed. He could stick it (you insert "where") and it would have no relevance at all to the case.
(snip)... What matters is how dealers treated their customers and peers over the years. And it's often overlooked when assessing a long time career in numismatics.
A guy formerly from Ohio comes to mind...
roadrunner >>
As far as a media circus, you guys are right! NN and CW just clog the streets when they are chasing a story! But who knows, maybe CNN will find this case much more exctiing than the coyote that ran into a store in Chicago a few weeks ago....
They got a lot more mileage out of the rats in the NYC Taco Bell...