<< <i>The condescension continues.............ignorance is bliss - Laura doesn't even know what the Moderns she is bashing sell for, why they attract so many collectors, or even how many were produced. Isn't it a bit laughable to continue bashing something that you cannot understand? It speaks volumes about a person when they can only speak poorly about something that is well beyond their own area of expertise, to wit:
It is one thing to collect for sheer fun-which I don't even question that many Moderns can offer. However it is the artifical rarities and the inflated pricing that to me end the "fun".
Like I said before, would ANY 2006 MS widget sell raw for $2,000.00??? Don't think so!
The only reason why some sets are selling for big numbers raw, because the dealers are getting stupid numbers for them in slabs! Thats a weak link food chain!
Hey, there are plenty of beautiful smartly priced Moderns to collect (Like PR69 State Quarters). But when people start to blow real oney not realizing there i no net to fall back on....Then its nothing but the greater fool theory.
Let me reiterate:
And yeah, I almost forgot. Why would you buy a nice modern from the Mint, when you could have the priviledge of keeping a dealer in business who has nothing but contempt for you and your collecting preferences - even if you also collect so called "classics" too? Believe me, it leaves no doubt about whose interests that dealer really has at heart - not yours.
It all seems so clear to me now. Bash away!!
The fact is - that I will not **ever** buy any coin from a dealer who has such contempt for my collecting preferences and clearly thinks that my collection is a fool's game. I am being turned completely against ever buying another "classic" coin, because of such arrogance and self-important blather.
Like I said, just keep on Bashing. It's not very flattering. >>
I agree and there will be a day when the slab game is seen as just that a game. Does this mean that TPG's will go away. No, they do have a purpose. I agree that do serve a function. Its the I just got out of the house of tight ass and thus gaze at the glory of my PF-70 club that just wizz in my vinegar.
<< <i>Gosh clad, you make a really good point about moderns being hard to find despite their high mintages.
Guess I'll have to stick with the plentiful draped bust and large sized capped bust coins in order to find any nice coins to buy >>
I have a nice gem+ set of clad Washington quarters in a Capital Plastics board but haven't been able to complete the set because I'm missing a true gem quality 82 P. There's currently more MS68 PCGS Morgans on Ebay than MS 1982 P Washingtons.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
<< <i><< BUT, the moment I want to get a coin that is a Modern and all that I can find are slabs...I pay a premium because..its a slab. >>
This is not a legitimate argument. The vast majority of slabbed moderns barely bring the submission fee, and many bring less. Unless, of course, you're buying coins graded 70.
Russ, NCNE >>
Excellent point Russ and exactly what causes me to get a bit unhinged. I however do not agree about the vast majority statement. >>
The fact that you don't agree that the vast majority of slabbed moderns barely bring the submission fee simply indicates that you don't pay any attention to market values for these coins. I'd suggest that you bone up a bit before ranting about how much premium the plastic adds.
<< <i>Personally, I'd just like to find a 69-P Washington I like as a 66. I don't mind buying it for holdered money raw, but I want a nice coin. Perhaps it's easier to talk about how many there are. >>
I probably have three or four that would meet your standards but there's simply no point in selling at these laughably low prices.
they remind me of a period of the US that i am not very fond or proud of. JFK getting mudered, Nixon impeached, the vietnam war, the modern two party system in politics, the drug war, our federal deficit, etc..
i want a coin that reminds me of more romantic and rugged times. when i felt we we young, wild, and vivid.
<< <i>I agree and there will be a day when the slab game is seen as just that a game. >>
Most of us already see it that way.
Russ, NCNE >>
Then most of you are ruining a fun hobby. What is this most of us stuff? Do you live in a community somewhere where on ly the real collectors go? Bag it.
I collect what I want you collect what you want and thats swell. I am a computer engineer and I know what science does and what a logical statement is.
DONT EVER TELL ME that hey yeah, a person gave his/her artististic opinion on a piece of metal and gee thats what real value is all about. Thats foolish in my mind and I feel no resentment towards folks who see a value in that. Go nuts. Just do not expect me to follow that view.
I respect your different opinion Russ, I mean that. However, I will also ask the same of my fellow person. If they cant do so, then I will only say, I have been around the world 7 times and never heard a story so sad. Boo hoo.
they remind me of a period of the US that i am not very fond or proud of. JFK getting mudered, Nixon impeached, the vietnam war, the modern two party system in politics, the drug war, our federal deficit, etc..
i want a coin that reminds me of more romantic and rugged times. when i felt we we young, wild, and vivid.
There's nothing wrong with having a preference and an opinion about the coins you collect. And it's refreshing to have a difference in preference without having to bash someone else's preference.
Bully for you, fc! You have my admiration!
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>DONT EVER TELL ME that hey yeah, a person gave his/her artististic opinion on a piece of metal and gee thats what real value is all about. Thats foolish in my mind and I feel no resentment towards folks who see a value in that. Go nuts. Just do not expect me to follow that view. >>
The opinion is "artistic" only in the sense that it is an aducated estimation of the value. This doesn't mean that all the components of grade can't be quan- tified. Indeed, since surface variations with moderns tend to be nearly insig- nificant, these would be relatively easy to grade on absolute scales.
<< <i>they remind me of a period of the US that i am not very fond or proud of. JFK getting mudered, Nixon impeached, the vietnam war, the modern two party system in politics, the drug war, our federal deficit, etc..
i want a coin that reminds me of more romantic and rugged times. when i felt we we young, wild, and vivid.
There's nothing wrong with having a preference and an opinion about the coins you collect. And it's refreshing to have a difference in preference without having to bash someone else's preference.
Bully for you, fc! You have my admiration! >>
I agree but would submit that there are still rugged individuals and there are still good things happening which will be remembered forever.
<< <i>DONT EVER TELL ME that hey yeah, a person gave his/her artististic opinion on a piece of metal and gee thats what real value is all about. Thats foolish in my mind and I feel no resentment towards folks who see a value in that. Go nuts. Just do not expect me to follow that view. >>
The opinion is "artistic" only in the sense that it is an aducated estimation of the value. This doesn't mean that all the components of grade can't be quan- tified. Indeed, since surface variations with moderns tend to be nearly insig- nificant, these would be relatively easy to grade on absolute scales. >>
<< <i>Gosh clad, you make a really good point about moderns being hard to find despite their high mintages.
Guess I'll have to stick with the plentiful draped bust and large sized capped bust coins in order to find any nice coins to buy >>
If you're looking for gem draped bust then you'll find them much scarcer than most of the moderns. But if you're looking for any old draped bust you'll find them far more plentiful than just nice 1969 quarters.
In fact, you can find gem bust much more readily than XF/AU 1969 25c's.
There is not enough liquor drugs or women to get me to buy any coin with 70 on a slab. I will take this bet with anyone here.
Are you sure about all aspects of your statement? I mean, even the "women" thing? Liquor & drugs - maybe not, but women? What kinda women do you hang around with?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Hey, I don't see raw 1969 MS68 25C in auctions! Only slabbed are they "valeuable".
I was sincere when I said I'd like to buy one raw for holdered price that was a legitimate 66. The holdered coins are just easier than searching for one.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
That $3,000.00 some idiot paid for a widget would be right back to the $25.00 the coin is really worth.
Behold, the troll speaks. Of what, she does not know! Before I made derogatory statements about something of which I were not an expert, I would want to have a well-documented instance where my ignorance wouldn't be so blatantly displayed.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Hey, I don't see raw 1969 MS68 25C in auctions! >>
You don't see slabbed MS68 1969 Washingtons in auctions either. Your attempts at making a point might be more effective if you weren't so ignorant about the issue you're discussing.
Moderns are great to collect. I just don't like seeing excessive prices paid for coins that are not truly rare.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Moderns are great to collect. I just don't like seeing excessive prices paid for coins that are not truly rare. >>
What about the moderns that are rare?
What is the line between acceptable and excessive for those which aren't rare? Who defines terms like "rare"?
Can "rare" apply to condition or only to mintage? >>
I think you have hit the nail on the head.
There is a supply scarcity which yes, I guess you could call rare. This is usually a product of unmet demand. Would it be really rare? Rare being a very limited population in relation to all of the folks who desire it, I say, no.
THIS is why I hate the salbbing game. IS the actual coin rare? In short does coin x have a small population and a such not a common thing to see? Usually in moderns, no. There are however exceptions. My all time favorite exception would be the 2001 Buffalo. Here we have a modern that is lets face it, not rare from a population stand point. Its highly desirerd, so yes demand for it causes a higher price.
Compare that to lets say, A Robert Kebnnedy Modern, which has a pop of under 100K if you believe the mint population figure. It still sells for well under 100 bucks.
NOW slab the coins. Call either a PF-70. First question: Who slabbed it? Why do I have to care? I just want the coin. I collect. BUT NOT ANYMORE........Thanks to the modern advent of "created value" I just loo at ghe slab and someone else has done the thinking for me. RIGHTY O
<< <i>Hey, I don't see raw 1969 MS68 25C in auctions! >>
You don't see slabbed MS68 1969 Washingtons in auctions either. Your attempts at making a point might be more effective if you weren't so ignorant about the issue you're discussing.
Russ, NCNE >>
You would also do better if you didnt come off like you birth granite every time you take a dump. Lighten up and everyone learns.
Hey, nothings wrong with moderns. I think they're swell. I use them all the time. Got a few in my pocket right now. I mean, lets face it, if you need change for a parking meter what are you going to use -- a state quarter or a seated quarter? Besides, those large diameter busties won't even fit.
I think the plastic game exists in classics as well. Put a classic coin in a slab and it sells for lots of money. Take the same coin, play the crack out game and it BBs. It's the same coin but do you think it will sell for as much? I doubt it.
Of course the plastic game exists for classics. Authentication is the foremost thing to for TPGs in classic rarities. For the market, I really have a hard time seeing why so many coins ever went to slabs. They simply cannot be justified. Why should an 1881-S MS63 Morgan be found, even occasionally in PCGS or NGC plastic? I can understand an MS64 that a collector thought was 65 or 66, but the stuff that is clearly in choice and below should not be seen in plastic for an issue like that in any significant numbers. It is insane. Similarly, I can't see why so much Mint-direct material is flooding the TPGs. Sure, they aren't going to discourage it. Neither will I, but I won't understand it. Yes, the "make a 70" greed is there, but that can't be everything. The Mint packaging is more than adequate. Perhaps having those pieces in the original duds will in time be viewed as preferrable and quite scarce.
<< <i>There is not enough liquor drugs or women to get me to buy any coin with 70 on a slab. I will take this bet with anyone here.
Are you sure about all aspects of your statement? I mean, even the "women" thing? Liquor & drugs - maybe not, but women? What kinda women do you hang around with? >>
Some reasons why collectors may want coins in slabs, both classics and moderns.
(a) authentication. While not all moderns or classics need this, it is useful for some. For moderns, authentication of errors is particularly useful. Authentication is generally not needed for many slabbed common coins, moderns or classics.
(b) grade guarantee. NGC has replaced MS70 2006 proof Franklin commems that were hazing already. Without the slab, the person would have been stuck with hazed proofs. The grade guarantee works for classics as well.
(c) form factor. Some people simply like TPG slabs better than OGP. Slabs are a uniform size/look and you can put them in slab boxes. NGC also provides multi-holders for arbitrary sets. Some classic collectors also migrate their coins to one brand of plastic primarily to enjoy a uniform look.
(d) registry. PCGS and NGC slabbed coins are eligible for the registry while raw coins are not. Some people get enjoyment out of logging their coins in the registry, even if they are not Top Pops.
Aside from the benefits, it seems that a lot of the things people bring up that are wrong with moderns are also wrong with classics.
Every coin was a "modern" when it was made! Most 1892-1954 commemoratives were hated when they were new. Not intended for circulation!! Fantasies!! Overpriced overpromoted junk!!
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
1. The quality of the artwork just isn't there. The mint used to be in the business of creating miniature works of sculpture with the coins they produced. Beginning in the 1970's, they seem to have begun focusing on making the manufacturing process easier and cheaper than on the aesthetic quality of the coins. Compare a 2007 Lincoln cent or Jefferson nickel with the first year of issue for each series, and you'll notice a huge difference in relief and detail. Compare the original design of the Missouri state quarter to the 'broccoli forest' that ended up on the coin itself. Compare the work quality of George Washington on the early quarters or sesquicentennial half to his image on the Washington Dollar. The artwork is being reduced from sculpture to line drawings by lowering detail and relief to make production easier.
2. I'll preface this one with a disclaimer: This is my opinion- I'm not knocking any particular type of collector, I'm simply expressing my concerns. People seem to be incredibly desparate for errors and varieties on these coins. Although the quality of the art has suffered, the mint does seem to have gotten better at minimizing the number of major errors (excluding that bin of Washington Dollars that missed the lettering machine!), creating demand in the hobby. The problem is, this demand causes people to pay outrageous prices for errors and varieties that would barely command any premium on classic coins. Many of the varieties are so small you need an electron microscope to see them. I bought a slabbed satin DDO 2005 Jefferson nickel just to see what it looked like, and to this day, with my best magnification, I still can't see it. I don't consider the market for 'extra trees', 'detached leg', 'speared bison', etc. varieties to be a stable one, and when the prices fall, people who paid a lot of money for these varieties and errors will be left with a lot of expensive pocket change.
3. The prices for high grade TPG coins are artificially high, and are based entirely on TPG population reports. How many MS or PR 70 coins are out there? Depends on if and what TPG the coins are sent to, IMHO. There are a lot of raw coins out there. If they are submitted and grade MS or PR70, the low population that makes a $40 issue price coin a $1000 PR70 coin could change, leaving the owner with a $40 coin.
I have other reasons, but I'm tired of typing (just as you are probably tired of reading this!)
Sorry for being long-winded. --Christian
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
Predicting the future is so interesting. Who's very good at it?
The people who bought classic common date gold? The people who bought late date Walkers? The people who bought low grade Classic Commems during the hype of the 80s? The people buying PCGS/NCG slabbed classic gold from telemarketers today?
My speculation is that many people paying what seem like high prices for Top Pop moderns fall into two camps:
(a) sheeple being led by the likes of HSN and CV (b) people analyzing the market, pops, etc and taking appropriate risks
For the sheeple, they exist for classics as well, it's not a modern-only issue.
For the "educated investors," they could be taking appropriate risks into account. The prices for top pop moderns are often much lower than the prices for top pop classics. While part of this may be lower demand, it could also be that the risks of population growth are factored into the lower prices.
For the "educated investors" they could be taking appropriate risks. The prices for top pop moderns are often much lower than the prices for top pop classics.
If you are collecting TPG slabs, all you are really doing is collecting the opinions of a group of grading professionals at one point in time.
On the other hand, if you really are discriminating to the point of being obsessive, how is buying a pop top 70 any different than paying a million bucks for a nickel?
It's a rhetorical question. It doesn't need an answer.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Dealers always offer less when the coin in question is out of their field of expertise, and even less if they have no contacts nor know anyone who deals in it. There are no listings in the greysheet for most slabbed moderns which really crimps many dealers' buying style. When they are offerred such coins the seller has to twist their arm to even get an offer.
Rather than suggest that these dealers define "true value" in moderns one should ask why so few dealers are comfortable in the modern mar- kets. There are, no doubt, a multitude of answers but most of them or- iginate in the perception that moderns are junk or in the simple fact that the demand for these coins is much thinner than the demand for classics.
It's very untrue that as many people have lost money in these coins as have made it. About the only way to lose is to pay "retail" and sell soon or to buy into one of the segments which have been oversold. Perhaps the statement would be true if everyone went out and sold tomorrow, but the losses on moderns would be trifling compared to the losses on classics. It's not like it's really difficult to lose money on moderns, and if there were a lot of speculators in these markets then I'm sure most would find a way.
One thing that is patently obvious is that it's not the underbidders and low ballers who determine a collectible's true value. Value isn't determined by those who are entirely unfamiliar with markets because they either aren't involved or are only hit and miss.
People who seek common or rare moderns know who to call and who not to call. They generally will know where or to whom to sell as well.
What is with the big deal about market makers? You don't need them to have a healthy market...
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cladking, I'll give you a good example of your statement. Years ago, somewhere around the early '90s I bought a PCGS MS69 1960 large date Lincoln 1c on Teletrade. The holder was not labled as DCAM, but apon receiving the coin, it was a DCAM. My friends and family could not believe I spent $290 for a penny. Later on I offered it to Rick Tomaska. (I therefore knew wo to call.) Upon receiving the coin Rick offered me $900, and I agreed to his price. Bottom line, We all know of severel RT's when it comes to selling our moderns, and thats all the market we need!
I've offered $250 for a raw clad Washington in MS66. There were 176 million 1969-P Washingtons minted. I can't be too hard for a market force like Legend to pick up the phone and find one. No pop reports, no TPG's, no market makers, no interference, just a simple coin purchase. Personally, I'd be delighted if Laura sends me one, as the act of actually looking would make her lots smarter about moderns. We'll see.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I love my proof plats..but gotta admit..she has a hell of a point about any great unslabbed modern collections, never any big auctions for those....its all good though..collect what ya want i say. Bruce Scher
<< <i>I love my proof plats..but gotta admit..she has a hell of a point about any great unslabbed modern collections, never any big auctions for those....its all good though..collect what ya want i say. >>
Collectors with great modern collections probably aren't old enough to want to let their collections go. Also the appreciation for great moderns may not have reached levels where it makes selling such collections attractive.
Comments
<< <i>The condescension continues.............ignorance is bliss - Laura doesn't even know what the Moderns she is bashing sell for, why they attract so many collectors, or even how many were produced. Isn't it a bit laughable to continue bashing something that you cannot understand? It speaks volumes about a person when they can only speak poorly about something that is well beyond their own area of expertise, to wit:
It is one thing to collect for sheer fun-which I don't even question that many Moderns can offer. However it is the artifical rarities and the inflated pricing that to me end the "fun".
Like I said before, would ANY 2006 MS widget sell raw for $2,000.00??? Don't think so!
The only reason why some sets are selling for big numbers raw, because the dealers are getting stupid numbers for them in slabs! Thats a weak link food chain!
Hey, there are plenty of beautiful smartly priced Moderns to collect (Like PR69 State Quarters). But when people start to blow real oney not realizing there i no net to fall back on....Then its nothing but the greater fool theory.
Let me reiterate:
And yeah, I almost forgot. Why would you buy a nice modern from the Mint, when you could have the priviledge of keeping a dealer in business who has nothing but contempt for you and your collecting preferences - even if you also collect so called "classics" too? Believe me, it leaves no doubt about whose interests that dealer really has at heart - not yours.
It all seems so clear to me now. Bash away!!
The fact is - that I will not **ever** buy any coin from a dealer who has such contempt for my collecting preferences and clearly thinks that my collection is a fool's game. I am being turned completely against ever buying another "classic" coin, because of such arrogance and self-important blather.
Like I said, just keep on Bashing. It's not very flattering. >>
I agree and there will be a day when the slab game is seen as just that a game. Does this mean that TPG's will go away. No, they do have a purpose. I agree that do serve a function. Its the I just got out of the house of tight ass and thus gaze at the glory of my PF-70 club that just wizz in my vinegar.
<< <i>Gosh clad, you make a really good point about moderns being hard to find despite their high mintages.
Guess I'll have to stick with the plentiful draped bust and large sized capped bust coins in order to find any nice coins to buy
I have a nice gem+ set of clad Washington quarters in a Capital Plastics board but haven't been able to complete the set because I'm missing a true gem quality 82 P. There's currently more MS68 PCGS Morgans on Ebay than MS 1982 P Washingtons.
<< <i><< BUT, the moment I want to get a coin that is a Modern and all that I can find are slabs...I pay a premium because..its a slab. >>
This is not a legitimate argument. The vast majority of slabbed moderns barely bring the submission fee, and many bring less. Unless, of course, you're buying coins graded 70.
Russ, NCNE >>
Excellent point Russ and exactly what causes me to get a bit unhinged. I however do not agree about the vast majority statement. >>
The fact that you don't agree that the vast majority of slabbed moderns barely bring the submission fee simply indicates that you don't pay any attention to market values for these coins. I'd suggest that you bone up a bit before ranting about how much premium the plastic adds.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Personally, I'd just like to find a 69-P Washington I like as a 66. I don't mind buying it for holdered money raw, but I want a nice coin. Perhaps it's easier to talk about how many there are. >>
I probably have three or four that would meet your standards but there's simply no point in selling at these laughably low prices.
<< <i>I agree and there will be a day when the slab game is seen as just that a game. >>
Most of us already see it that way.
Russ, NCNE
they remind me of a period of the US that i am not very fond or
proud of. JFK getting mudered, Nixon impeached, the vietnam war,
the modern two party system in politics, the drug war, our federal
deficit, etc..
i want a coin that reminds me of more romantic and rugged times.
when i felt we we young, wild, and vivid.
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree and there will be a day when the slab game is seen as just that a game. >>
Most of us already see it that way.
Russ, NCNE >>
Then most of you are ruining a fun hobby. What is this most of us stuff? Do you live in a community somewhere where on ly the real collectors go? Bag it.
I collect what I want you collect what you want and thats swell. I am a computer engineer and I know what science does and what a logical statement is.
DONT EVER TELL ME that hey yeah, a person gave his/her artististic opinion on a piece of metal and gee thats what real value is all about. Thats foolish in my mind and I feel no resentment towards folks who see a value in that. Go nuts. Just do not expect me to follow that view.
I respect your different opinion Russ, I mean that. However, I will also ask the same of my fellow person. If they cant do so, then I will only say, I have been around the world 7 times and never heard a story so sad. Boo hoo.
proud of. JFK getting mudered, Nixon impeached, the vietnam war,
the modern two party system in politics, the drug war, our federal
deficit, etc..
i want a coin that reminds me of more romantic and rugged times.
when i felt we we young, wild, and vivid.
There's nothing wrong with having a preference and an opinion about the coins you collect. And it's refreshing to have a difference in preference without having to bash someone else's preference.
Bully for you, fc! You have my admiration!
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>DONT EVER TELL ME that hey yeah, a person gave his/her artististic opinion on a piece of metal and gee thats what real value is all about. Thats foolish in my mind and I feel no resentment towards folks who see a value in that. Go nuts. Just do not expect me to follow that view. >>
The opinion is "artistic" only in the sense that it is an aducated estimation of
the value. This doesn't mean that all the components of grade can't be quan-
tified. Indeed, since surface variations with moderns tend to be nearly insig-
nificant, these would be relatively easy to grade on absolute scales.
<< <i>they remind me of a period of the US that i am not very fond or
proud of. JFK getting mudered, Nixon impeached, the vietnam war,
the modern two party system in politics, the drug war, our federal
deficit, etc..
i want a coin that reminds me of more romantic and rugged times.
when i felt we we young, wild, and vivid.
There's nothing wrong with having a preference and an opinion about the coins you collect. And it's refreshing to have a difference in preference without having to bash someone else's preference.
Bully for you, fc! You have my admiration! >>
I agree but would submit that there are still rugged individuals and
there are still good things happening which will be remembered forever.
<< <i>
<< <i>DONT EVER TELL ME that hey yeah, a person gave his/her artististic opinion on a piece of metal and gee thats what real value is all about. Thats foolish in my mind and I feel no resentment towards folks who see a value in that. Go nuts. Just do not expect me to follow that view. >>
The opinion is "artistic" only in the sense that it is an aducated estimation of
the value. This doesn't mean that all the components of grade can't be quan-
tified. Indeed, since surface variations with moderns tend to be nearly insig-
nificant, these would be relatively easy to grade on absolute scales. >>
That actually makes sense.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
He shoots, he scores!!
<< <i>Gosh clad, you make a really good point about moderns being hard to find despite their high mintages.
Guess I'll have to stick with the plentiful draped bust and large sized capped bust coins in order to find any nice coins to buy
If you're looking for gem draped bust then you'll find them much scarcer
than most of the moderns. But if you're looking for any old draped bust
you'll find them far more plentiful than just nice 1969 quarters.
In fact, you can find gem bust much more readily than XF/AU 1969 25c's.
Are you sure about all aspects of your statement? I mean, even the "women" thing? Liquor & drugs - maybe not, but women? What kinda women do you hang around with?
I knew it would happen.
I was sincere when I said I'd like to buy one raw for holdered price that was a legitimate 66. The holdered coins are just easier than searching for one.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Behold, the troll speaks. Of what, she does not know! Before I made derogatory statements about something of which I were not an expert, I would want to have a well-documented instance where my ignorance wouldn't be so blatantly displayed.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Hey, I don't see raw 1969 MS68 25C in auctions! >>
You don't see slabbed MS68 1969 Washingtons in auctions either. Your attempts at making a point might be more effective if you weren't so ignorant about the issue you're discussing.
Russ, NCNE
And to think, Russ tried to defend her?
Amen.
My EBay Store/Auctions
<< <i>I Luvvvv Moderns! ...especially modern doubled dies. >>
Yes, REAL modern coins.
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SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Moderns are great to collect. I just don't like seeing excessive prices paid for coins that are not truly rare. >>
What about the moderns that are rare?
What is the line between acceptable and excessive for those which aren't rare? Who defines terms like "rare"?
Can "rare" apply to condition or only to mintage?
One difference may be that classic condition rarities sell for much more and may be the product of crack outs and doctoring.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>
<< <i>Moderns are great to collect. I just don't like seeing excessive prices paid for coins that are not truly rare. >>
What about the moderns that are rare?
What is the line between acceptable and excessive for those which aren't rare? Who defines terms like "rare"?
Can "rare" apply to condition or only to mintage? >>
I think you have hit the nail on the head.
There is a supply scarcity which yes, I guess you could call rare. This is usually a product of unmet demand. Would it be really rare? Rare being a very limited population in relation to all of the folks who desire it, I say, no.
THIS is why I hate the salbbing game. IS the actual coin rare? In short does coin x have a small population and a such not a common thing to see? Usually in moderns, no. There are however exceptions. My all time favorite exception would be the 2001 Buffalo. Here we have a modern that is lets face it, not rare from a population stand point. Its highly desirerd, so yes demand for it causes a higher price.
Compare that to lets say, A Robert Kebnnedy Modern, which has a pop of under 100K if you believe the mint population figure. It still sells for well under 100 bucks.
NOW slab the coins. Call either a PF-70. First question: Who slabbed it? Why do I have to care? I just want the coin. I collect. BUT NOT ANYMORE........Thanks to the modern advent of "created value" I just loo at ghe slab and someone else has done the thinking for me. RIGHTY O
<< <i>
<< <i>Hey, I don't see raw 1969 MS68 25C in auctions! >>
You don't see slabbed MS68 1969 Washingtons in auctions either. Your attempts at making a point might be more effective if you weren't so ignorant about the issue you're discussing.
Russ, NCNE >>
You would also do better if you didnt come off like you birth granite every time you take a dump. Lighten up and everyone learns.
<< <i>what is wrong with moderns >>
Hey, nothings wrong with moderns. I think they're swell. I use them all the time. Got a few in my pocket right now. I mean, lets face it, if you need change for a parking meter what are you going to use -- a state quarter or a seated quarter? Besides, those large diameter busties won't even fit.
CG
Is this something that is wrong with classics?
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>There is not enough liquor drugs or women to get me to buy any coin with 70 on a slab. I will take this bet with anyone here.
Are you sure about all aspects of your statement? I mean, even the "women" thing? Liquor & drugs - maybe not, but women? What kinda women do you hang around with? >>
Its an all or nothing thing for me.
Too much of a good thing is wonderful..........
(a) authentication. While not all moderns or classics need this, it is useful for some. For moderns, authentication of errors is particularly useful. Authentication is generally not needed for many slabbed common coins, moderns or classics.
(b) grade guarantee. NGC has replaced MS70 2006 proof Franklin commems that were hazing already. Without the slab, the person would have been stuck with hazed proofs. The grade guarantee works for classics as well.
(c) form factor. Some people simply like TPG slabs better than OGP. Slabs are a uniform size/look and you can put them in slab boxes. NGC also provides multi-holders for arbitrary sets. Some classic collectors also migrate their coins to one brand of plastic primarily to enjoy a uniform look.
(d) registry. PCGS and NGC slabbed coins are eligible for the registry while raw coins are not. Some people get enjoyment out of logging their coins in the registry, even if they are not Top Pops.
Aside from the benefits, it seems that a lot of the things people bring up that are wrong with moderns are also wrong with classics.
Is there a fund on the planet that performs like that?
And you believe in George W Bush too.........dont you ? >>
now, now...no treason...
Box of 20
1. The quality of the artwork just isn't there. The mint used to be in the business of creating miniature works of sculpture with the coins they produced. Beginning in the 1970's, they seem to have begun focusing on making the manufacturing process easier and cheaper than on the aesthetic quality of the coins. Compare a 2007 Lincoln cent or Jefferson nickel with the first year of issue for each series, and you'll notice a huge difference in relief and detail. Compare the original design of the Missouri state quarter to the 'broccoli forest' that ended up on the coin itself. Compare the work quality of George Washington on the early quarters or sesquicentennial half to his image on the Washington Dollar. The artwork is being reduced from sculpture to line drawings by lowering detail and relief to make production easier.
2. I'll preface this one with a disclaimer: This is my opinion- I'm not knocking any particular type of collector, I'm simply expressing my concerns. People seem to be incredibly desparate for errors and varieties on these coins. Although the quality of the art has suffered, the mint does seem to have gotten better at minimizing the number of major errors (excluding that bin of Washington Dollars that missed the lettering machine!), creating demand in the hobby. The problem is, this demand causes people to pay outrageous prices for errors and varieties that would barely command any premium on classic coins. Many of the varieties are so small you need an electron microscope to see them. I bought a slabbed satin DDO 2005 Jefferson nickel just to see what it looked like, and to this day, with my best magnification, I still can't see it. I don't consider the market for 'extra trees', 'detached leg', 'speared bison', etc. varieties to be a stable one, and when the prices fall, people who paid a lot of money for these varieties and errors will be left with a lot of expensive pocket change.
3. The prices for high grade TPG coins are artificially high, and are based entirely on TPG population reports. How many MS or PR 70 coins are out there? Depends on if and what TPG the coins are sent to, IMHO. There are a lot of raw coins out there. If they are submitted and grade MS or PR70, the low population that makes a $40 issue price coin a $1000 PR70 coin could change, leaving the owner with a $40 coin.
I have other reasons, but I'm tired of typing (just as you are probably tired of reading this!)
Sorry for being long-winded.
--Christian
The people who bought classic common date gold? The people who bought late date Walkers? The people who bought low grade Classic Commems during the hype of the 80s? The people buying PCGS/NCG slabbed classic gold from telemarketers today?
My speculation is that many people paying what seem like high prices for Top Pop moderns fall into two camps:
(a) sheeple being led by the likes of HSN and CV
(b) people analyzing the market, pops, etc and taking appropriate risks
For the sheeple, they exist for classics as well, it's not a modern-only issue.
For the "educated investors," they could be taking appropriate risks into account. The prices for top pop moderns are often much lower than the prices for top pop classics. While part of this may be lower demand, it could also be that the risks of population growth are factored into the lower prices.
If you are collecting TPG slabs, all you are really doing is collecting the opinions of a group of grading professionals at one point in time.
On the other hand, if you really are discriminating to the point of being obsessive, how is buying a pop top 70 any different than paying a million bucks for a nickel?
It's a rhetorical question. It doesn't need an answer.
I knew it would happen.
of expertise, and even less if they have no contacts nor know anyone
who deals in it. There are no listings in the greysheet for most slabbed
moderns which really crimps many dealers' buying style. When they are
offerred such coins the seller has to twist their arm to even get an offer.
Rather than suggest that these dealers define "true value" in moderns
one should ask why so few dealers are comfortable in the modern mar-
kets. There are, no doubt, a multitude of answers but most of them or-
iginate in the perception that moderns are junk or in the simple fact that
the demand for these coins is much thinner than the demand for classics.
It's very untrue that as many people have lost money in these coins as
have made it. About the only way to lose is to pay "retail" and sell soon
or to buy into one of the segments which have been oversold. Perhaps
the statement would be true if everyone went out and sold tomorrow,
but the losses on moderns would be trifling compared to the losses on
classics. It's not like it's really difficult to lose money on moderns, and if
there were a lot of speculators in these markets then I'm sure most would
find a way.
One thing that is patently obvious is that it's not the underbidders and low
ballers who determine a collectible's true value. Value isn't determined by
those who are entirely unfamiliar with markets because they either aren't
involved or are only hit and miss.
People who seek common or rare moderns know who to call and who not
to call. They generally will know where or to whom to sell as well.
http://my.affinity.is/cancer-research?referral_code=MjI4Nzgz
I'll give you a good example of your statement. Years ago, somewhere around the early '90s I bought a PCGS MS69 1960 large date Lincoln 1c on Teletrade.
The holder was not labled as DCAM, but apon receiving the coin, it was a DCAM.
My friends and family could not believe I spent $290 for a penny. Later on I offered it to Rick Tomaska. (I therefore knew wo to call.)
Upon receiving the coin Rick offered me $900, and I agreed to his price.
Bottom line, We all know of severel RT's when it comes to selling our moderns, and thats all the market we need!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Bruce Scher
<< <i>I love my proof plats..but gotta admit..she has a hell of a point about any great unslabbed modern collections, never any big auctions for those....its all good though..collect what ya want i say. >>
Collectors with great modern collections probably aren't old enough to want to let their collections go. Also the appreciation for great moderns may not have reached levels where it makes selling such collections attractive.