what is wrong with moderns!

scooter25 · April 17, 2007 5:05AM

I know I am probably going to get yelled at for this question but why does it seem like whenever someone speaks of a modern coin some people here act as though modern coins are just the most aweful thing to ever happen? Can someone enlighten me?

Zoins · April 17, 2007 5:08AM

Much of the concern is about the large sums of money being spent on TPG 70 Mint collectible NCLT when there are a ton of 69s. One issue is that a TPG 70 might lose a lot of its "value" outside of the holder. Modern business strikes don't generally get the same response.

That being said, classic coins can be BBed on a crackout resubmission and also lose a lot of their "value."

I think a lot of it comes down to the "buy the coin, not the holder" philosophy.

DHeath · April 17, 2007 5:17AM

Can someone enlighten me?

It's too late for you, you've already been infected.

Maybe they can save the newbies.

Rob85635 · April 17, 2007 5:19AM

Nothing wrong with Moderns, well, except that you spelled it wrong. hehe , just messing

pharmer · April 17, 2007 5:20AM

<< what is wrong with moederns! >>

Moe's cool. It's his brother Curly you gotta watch out for.

scooter25 · April 17, 2007 5:22AM

HA HA! very funny. got your attention though didn't it?

GoldenEyeNumismatics · April 17, 2007 5:24AM

A lot of people collect coins for the history and events each coin has gone through. Modern coins haven't gone through much

Cladiator · April 17, 2007 5:24AM

Collect what puts a smile on your face.

DHeath · April 17, 2007 5:26AM

GoldenEye,

I remember the Kennedy assassination, and the change in our coinage. Is that what you mean, or do you mean events that have no personal relevance to the collector?

Zoins · April 17, 2007 5:28AM

Some people also like to collect coins based on what they think the coin has gone through, which may be very different than what actually happened. But the imagining is part of the enjoyment as well.

Collect what you like. The concerns I've seen are mostly warnings for possible overpaying. As long as people are bidding responsibly, taking market risks into account, there's no real issue.

garsmith · April 18, 2007 12:16AM

Collect what you like, you are collecting for you not for the wannabe that just likes to dump on other peoples collections!

Whitby · April 18, 2007 12:20AM

Collect whatever blows your hair back.

I will however say that while I too collect some moderns (post 1984 lets be specific right?) the craze of the coin history has tured into the craze for coin condition and the grading game.......IMO

TwoSides2aCoin · April 18, 2007 12:23AM

<< Can someone enlighten me?

It's too late for you, you've already been infected.

Maybe they can save the newbies.

>>

LOL

Okay scooter, pay attention.

Moderns are really okay. The secret to happiness is not allowing others to steer you away from your heart's desire. DHeath gave me pure joy and happiness when my gut started hurting from laughter reading his response.

Coins are cool. Really old coins are cooler in some people's opinions. (and for the sake of peace... Rightfully so). With age comes wisdom, toning, and one other thing that Moderns have not
A good ole boys club !

'tis okay, think of moderns like dinner in a slow cooker !

Joe

rjsriv · April 18, 2007 12:26AM

IMO-they are common as dirt, many designs are plain butt ugly(shriver diollar) and overhyped by HSN and such. thus the term MODERN CRAP!!!!!!

jmj3esq · April 18, 2007 12:27AM

I think what I call early modern (1964-early 1970's) Kennedys are real cool. Theres a lot of fun to be had there. Everything else modern, i agree, is pretty much crap.

TwoSides2aCoin · April 18, 2007 12:39AM

Everything is wrong with them

Speared bison, Extra Leaf , Doubled Die when they ain't supposed to be, Mules, ... Someone post some pics of what is really wrong with them

Edge letter missing... other letter missing

I could post more pics...

Die gouges

Then there's Wide AM, CLOSE AM, ...
What else ?

Whitby · April 18, 2007 12:45AM

Hence the issue with "moderns". There are as many moderns as there are ways to inflate their value...... Too bad the actual collector has no influence in this.

Coxe · April 18, 2007 12:57AM

There is a world of difference between collecting modern coins and collecting modern NCLT and special finsh mint and proof coins. All are perfectly fine to collect, but only real commerce coins are ultimately comparable to classics in any meaningful way. The others, and knock yourself out if you love them and want to collect them, are a different beast. Wouldn't knock someone for collecting beanie babies either. They aren't coins either.

Zoins · April 18, 2007 1:01AM

<< There is a world of difference between collecting modern coins and collecting modern NCLT and special finsh mint and proof coins. All are perfectly fine to collect, but only real commerce coins are ultimately comparable to classics in any meaningful way. The others, and know yourself out if you love them and want to collect them, are a different beast. Wouldn't knock someone for collecting beanie babies either. They aren't coins either. >>

I agree. I've started to view NCLT more as medals than coins. They can still be very nice, but as you say, they are not used for commerce. I chose medals because tokens are also used for commerce though in a more limited scope.

Russ · April 18, 2007 1:08AM

Moderns are cool. Classics are cool. Ancients are cool. Coins are cool.

Russ, NCNE

Zoins · April 18, 2007 1:11AM

<< Moderns are cool. Classics are cool. Ancients are cool. Coins are cool.

Russ, NCNE >>

Medals, SCDs and NCLT are cool

tahoe98 · April 18, 2007 1:19AM

buffalo nickels, morgan and peace dollars, and many many others .................................................................once were moderns!

PQpeace · April 18, 2007 1:29AM

When I decided to sell all my coins a few months ago, I offered my moderns to the dealers/people who I purchased them from..none of them wanted to even make me an offer for these coins.
Most of these people either make the coins,and never want to see them again,or sell them for clients.
One way market for sure,
Larry

Zoins · April 18, 2007 1:30AM

Are moderns a one way market with dealers because dealers (and the associated mark-up) are not necessary for the modern market to function?

Dealers take a big percentage out of the transaction. Does anyone really want to pay a dealer their fee for moderns?

Russ · April 18, 2007 1:44AM

In the moderns market, dealers are an anachronism; they are vestigial. We don't need them.

Russ, NCNE

7Jaguars · April 18, 2007 1:47AM

Some of these comments are somewhat off the mark. There obviously is a secondary market for moderns and I have sold many over ebay and directly, or used them in trade. Now if we go there with semantics, there may not be a "wholesale" market for them but I can not understand the relevance of this comment.

Bottom line: if I buy two of a mint issue and am able to sell one (generally for MORE than I paid) then there is a resell market for me at least, and from what I hear plenty of others. Let the outrageous "wholesale" tariffs be dam---.

BTW, modern US is only a sideline since I have collected them on and off for over 30 years. I collect for fun and joy.

FatMan · April 18, 2007 1:53AM

What is wrong with moderns!? Nothing. Modern coins can be every bit as fun as any other series if you have an interest. I am a closet modern collector as I too feel the second class syndrome at times. I have complete sets of ASE proofs, and Modern Commems mostly graded 69. I have purchased all directly from the mint since 1997.

However, collecting plastic is a very risky proposition and IMO even more so with NCLT. PCGS has rewarded me with several 70's over the years and in all honesty I can not tell the difference between many of the 69s and my 70s. And, with the recent proliferation of 70's being rewarded by PCGS, not only have they degraded the value of my earlier 70's, they have degraded the value of most of the 69's as well.

Unfortunately PCGS has me right where they want me, with complete graded sets. I have become a slave to these sets so I continue to submit my moderns. I guess the upside is that it gets me invites to all the PCGS registry luncheons. But if I were to do it all over again I would collect these and keep them in the original mint packaging. I have kept all the packaging so every time I get ready to submit I think about cracking them all and putting them back in the packaging, but then I come to my senses and think about how much I would miss the free lunches and cold brew.

theump · April 18, 2007 2:07AM

I think the best space or the best value in the entire coin market is when you can buy modern gold comms at melt or under.

Zoins · April 18, 2007 2:09AM

<< I think the best space or the best value in the entire coin market is when you can buy modern gold comms at melt or under. >>

Someone needs to start pitching those to SHQ/ASE collectors, just like dealers were pitching classic commems in the 80s.

BECOKA · April 18, 2007 2:10AM

<< Collect what puts a smile on your face. >>

This is sound advice.

Collecting moderns is great just don't expect an investment return on them. Collecting in this fashion should be done with disposable funds and then the hobby becomes much more enjoyable.

I love the new Buffalo gold coins and it would take an act of nature for me to stop collecting these.

7Jaguars · April 18, 2007 2:19AM

Hey, I know this is a PCGS sponsored board, God love them, but I have taken to keeping my coins in OGP and not giving the premium to TPG as I think with regards to mint encapsulated issues that they can generally be assumed to be of "69" caliber as long as there is no packaging damage.

PhillyJoe · April 18, 2007 2:23AM

Even though there is no market for moderns, I always enjoy when Russ, Marty or DHeath buy a $15 proof set and sell the coins in that set for thousands. They don't need dealers to buy them, collectors will buy any they are willing to sell.

R&I must think there is a market; moderns are their specialty.

When it comes to coins; it's all good.

Joe

Zoins · April 18, 2007 2:25AM

<< Even though there is no market for moderns, I always enjoy when Russ, Marty or DHeath buy a $15 proof set and sell the coins in that set for thousands. They don't need dealers to buy them, collectors will buy any they are willing to sell. >>

If they can find buyers, there obviously IS a market, however it could be a collector-to-collector market. As Russ says dealers are an anachronism, vestigial, for moderns. As 7Jaguars says, there may be no "wholesale market" but that's different than a market in general which clearly exists.

theump · April 18, 2007 2:38AM

<< 

<< I think the best space or the best value in the entire coin market is when you can buy modern gold comms at melt or under. >>

Someone needs to start pitching those to SHQ/ASE collectors, just like dealers were pitching classic commems in the 80s. >>

SHQ?

Also, could you please explain your comment.

thx

Zoins · April 18, 2007 2:43AM

<< 

<< 

<< I think the best space or the best value in the entire coin market is when you can buy modern gold comms at melt or under. >>

Someone needs to start pitching those to SHQ/ASE collectors, just like dealers were pitching classic commems in the 80s. >>

SHQ?

Also, could you please explain your comment. >>

SHQ = Statehood Quarters

SHQ/ASE collectors = new coin collectors

modern gold comms at melt or under = even better prices than buying from buying new NCLT from the Mint

pitching those coins: introducing modern gold commems to new collectors who may not know about those coins. Some 80s gold commems have mintages at the levels of the RP ASE and ASB which may find an active collector population among new collectors that like SHQs (silver mintages 800-900k) and ASEs (RP mintages 250k, 2006-W MS mintages 400+k). It seems like these new collectors may appreciate modern gold commems if they knew about them.

basestealer · April 18, 2007 2:43AM

<< Hey, I know this is a PCGS sponsored board, God love them, but I have taken to keeping my coins in OGP and not giving the premium to TPG as I think with regards to mint encapsulated issues that they can generally be assumed to be of "69" caliber as long as there is no packaging damage. >>

Yep, all coins are good if they aren't in those nasty, third party plastic slabs.

And maybe the real issue with modern coins is they don't have the history that seperates them from time of issue to time of collectbility--ie they were minted to be collectible. With morgan dollars, or other vintage coins, they were minted for circulation, they were unpopular at first, then they were sitting around in vaults, then they became popular again, they had 4 or 5 decades of popularity and struggled through market dips and spikes, and the value of the coins has nothing to do with their issue price of $1 or their popularity at the time of issue; rather they've taken on a whole new element to themselves. With moderns, they trade based on issue price from the mint and the popularity of the design--if any premiums will be had, it will be luck of the draw. The 69/70 silliness is irrelevent because they're all 69 or 70. But one day, moderns will have the potential to appreciate in much the same way vintage coins already have. Dog designs with no appeal, a $100 silver market, economic crisis, melting pots for modern junk--maybe in a few years after such an event, people will evaluate them differently. But I think the value of any collection is more than the sum of each part of it--if you collect coins with ships, then you'll want to add the Jamestown commem to the collection, and likewise with other "moderns", and so there's a place for them in collections whether they are valued or prized by themselves or not.

DHeath · April 18, 2007 3:28AM

I like circulating U.S. coins through 1998, and I appreciate a nice coin, so the plastic holders don't bother me much, as it means someone else whose opinion I trust has done some of the hunting for me, cause danged if I want to look at 3000 1991 mint sets for a gem+ Washington, or even ask a dealer if I can, but I do think I should own one.

Classic coin collectors should have it as good as modern collectors. Ask Laura if you can search through all of her inventory raw without regard for the grade, and pay unc bid for the nice ones.

Personally, I just don't get that excited about buying a coin some dead guy's grandchildren are selling so it can be "discovered" again for the 5th time by the new Marco Polo, but to each his/her own.

Most coins are cool, and fortunately most collectors are unaffected by other's likes and dislikes.

Baley · April 18, 2007 4:15AM

I think everyone should collect what they like. What is wrong with modern coins, FOR ME, is:

1. very little history. These coins were minted recently and can't even start to complete with older coins for my interest.
2. large mintages. Yes there are some less common moderns but even with mintages in the 10,000 range, that's orders of magnitude more existing coins than most 150+ year old coins.
3. high survival rate. Many modern coins go from mint packaging into slabs, suffering no attrition
4. marketing. These recently issued coins are marketed with special packaging and slab tags, and I want to buy coins, not packaging.
5. high mint output of types. Trying to "keep up" with one each of the mint's yearly output would exceed my coin budget for 2-3 years.
6. poor designs, imo, compared to older coins. I just don't find new coins attractive.
7. artificial (imo) creation of "rare varieties" to stimulate interest. I don't like being manipulated.

there are other things I think are "wrong with moderns" but that's my list FOR ME.

as always, if this year's "mint products" make you happy, I think that's great.

BECOKA · April 18, 2007 4:39AM

Baley,

Why is it that when people think moderns they think they have to have at least one of each type. I agree that getting this from the mint is beyond most peoples budget so why not pick a series? I like the gold buffalo and am calling it quits with that one series, aside from a few of the better commemoratives etc...

Rarity · April 18, 2007 4:59AM

I like the classics but most moderns are more affordable.

Few weeks ago, I went to NASA museum, saw the model airplane of the Wright brothers, learned about Space Exploration, and came back very impressed. As a result, I now appreciate my $10 First Flight Gold Commem even more.

Zoins · April 18, 2007 5:14AM

I think some moderns are great. AGBs and Reverse Proofs are quite beautiful IMO

There are some nicely designed classics but not all qualify for me, just like with moderns.

As for price, there are many reasonably priced classics and moderns, it just depends on your preferences.

quattrocoins · April 18, 2007 5:29AM

<< Why is it that when people think moderns they think they have to have at least one of each type. I agree that getting this from the mint is beyond most peoples budget so why not pick a series? I like the gold buffalo and am calling it quits with that one series, aside from a few of the better commemoratives etc... >>

I chose the half-ounce platinum proofs. With their annually changing reverses, I find them the most interesting, and their mintage figures seem to suggest that they could be the ultimate modern series(they hold 5 of the top 20 lowest mintages of design and denomination based type coinsissued by the US Mint since 1915). (I also have the #5 on the list,... the $5 Jackie Robinson unc. gold

).

I just acquired this one for my set. With a mintage of just 5063, it is the key to the set.

I'm looking forward to the 2008 model, which will feature an owl + an eagle on the reverse, representing the judicial branch of government.
And, of course, the possibility of a reverse proof for this year.

So, no, I see nothing wrong with moderns!

BTW, I also have sets of Mercury dimes and Standing Liberty & Washington quarters.

Collect what you like, and don't be limited to generalized categories!

keets · April 18, 2007 6:03AM

No one has EVER named me THREE non auction venue dealers who are legit MAJOR MARKET MAKERS for any Modern series. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.....................

some of us have named three dealers and you sloughed them off cause they were unknown to you, you plucked some qualifier out of the air which disqualified them or you just decided they didn't count for some arbitrary reason. it's always the same, always, always the same. it's also been pointed out that the market for Modern coins doesn't function the same as other more traditional markets and that you are ignorant of that fact or, again, choose to not recognize it's validity. whatever, but it's always the same pathetic broken record when you talk on this topic.

give up already, you don't understand the market and should avoid it and most likely would lose your shirt if you entered it, and believe me, none of wants that to happen. since it isn't your cup of tea and you have conquered the rest of the Numismatic world, why do you rant on about Moderns?? what are you afraid of??? why does this market-segment cause you such anguish??? i pity the fool who can't recogniize their limitations and stay within them, hopefully that isn't you, but if it is, well, pity the fool.

LucyBop · April 18, 2007 6:14AM

It's like this daddy-o, the coins of the 1950's really rock!

Nothing like a toner or a GEMMY Cameo with heavy frost and a black and white appearance...

The Hepcats dig it!

The Squares cry like they did about Elvis and Little Richard...

quattrocoins · April 18, 2007 6:24AM

<< The Squares cry like they did about Elvis and Little Richard... >>

Lucy, In the rock 'n' roll world they ARE the classics (along with Elmore, of course)!

LucyBop · April 18, 2007 6:26AM

<< 

<< The Squares cry like they did about Elvis and Little Richard... >>

Lucy, In the rock 'n' roll world they ARE the classics (along with Elmore, of course)!

>>

My favorite Elmore James song is 'Shake your Money Maker'... And boy can I...

quattrocoins · April 18, 2007 6:34AM

<< My favorite Elmore James song is 'Shake your Money Maker'... And boy can I.. >>

I bet you can!

BTW, Hound Dog Taylor would tell you that's HIS song.

Gonna "Dust My Broom" "Over Yonder Wall"!

mach19 · April 18, 2007 6:41AM

<< I know I am probably going to get yelled at for this question

Turn down the volume. P.S. Purchase the coins "YOU" like, you will find yourself travelling down different avenues as you go.

cladking · April 18, 2007 6:45AM

<< 

1. very little history. These coins were minted recently and can't even start to complete with older coins for my interest. >>

Untrue. You are overlooking some fundamental considerations when you say
that moderns have very little history. When you see a 1969 quarter it's possible
that it's one that Neil Armstrong got in change at the 7-11 while on his way to the
Kennedy Space Center to leave for the moon. It might have sat in his locker or even
slipped aboard. That certainly couldn't have happened with one of the Morgans that
sat in storage until the 1970's or later.

<< 
2. large mintages. Yes there are some less common moderns but even with mintages in the 10,000 range, that's orders of magnitude more existing coins than most 150+ year old coins. >>

There are numerous rare moderns. These range from unique to a few dozen known.
Why overlook condition rarity too? How many true MS-67 1969 quarters do you think
there are?

<< 
3. high survival rate. Many modern coins go from mint packaging into slabs, suffering no attrition >>

But most don't. Virtually the entire mintage of 1969 quarters went into circulation. To-
day nearly half are gone forever and the other half are damaged and worn.

<< 
4. marketing. These recently issued coins are marketed with special packaging and slab tags, and I want to buy coins, not packaging. >>

Many moderns are difficult to find slabbed since fewer people slab them. Grade is not
so important a consideration unless you're selling. With trhe rarities it's not important
even when selling.

<< 
5. high mint output of types. Trying to "keep up" with one each of the mint's yearly output would exceed my coin budget for 2-3 years. >>

The total cost of 1969 official coinage types was $5.33, though that was a lot more mon-
ey then.

<< 
6. poor designs, imo, compared to older coins. I just don't find new coins attractive.
7. artificial (imo) creation of "rare varieties" to stimulate interest. I don't like being manipulated. >>

It's highly improbable that any known US coins varieties were intentionally made in 1969
to stimulate interest. There are only a half dozen major varieties for this date and I'm a-
ware of no significant errors that are believed intentional. (some exist for '68 and '70)

<< 
there are other things I think are "wrong with moderns" but that's my list FOR ME. >>

Mostly what's wrong with moderns for most older collectors is that they have a strongly
negative emotional reaction. A lot of we older collectors simply never got over what was
done to us in the mid-'60's and to the coin market. We haven't gotten over the debase-
ment of small change. Most hate to see the money for "real" coins being siphoned off
for "junk".

<< 
as always, if this year's "mint products" make you happy, I think that's great. >>

There ya' go. There's simply nothing wrong with collecting any coin. People are having
a blast collecting all the coins since 1792. Why should anyone choose some arbitrary
date beyond which they don't think it's a good idea to collect? If you think you'll lose
money on all this "modern crap" then just come up with a nice '69 quarter or any other
hard to find modern and see if you can lose money on it. It won't be easy.

If someone sure that everyone will lose there shirts on the easier to find moderns then
they should consider that they just might be wrong. Prices are determined by supply and
demand so until demand turns down the price probably won't. In the meantime I believe
people are having fun with these and many are making money. If anyone is betting the
rent money on them then that would be just as foolish as betting the rent money on classics.

ericj96 · April 18, 2007 6:46AM

>
I chose the half-ounce platinum proofs. With their annually changing reverses, I find them the most interesting, and their mintage figures seem to suggest that they could be the ultimate modern series(they hold 5 of the top 20 lowest mintages of design and denomination based type coinsissued by the US Mint since 1915). (I also have the #5 on the list,... the $5 Jackie Robinson unc. gold ).

I just acquired this one for my set. With a mintage of just 5063, it is the key to the set.

I'm looking forward to the 2008 model, which will feature an owl + an eagle on the reverse, representing the judicial branch of government.
And, of course, the possibility of a reverse proof for this year.

So, no, I see nothing wrong with moderns!

BTW, I also have sets of Mercury dimes and Standing Liberty & Washington quarters.

Collect what you like, and don't be limited to generalized categories! >

************************

Much congrats on your 2004 Seated America Half. 5063 mintage....twice as rare a Hawiian, struck on $650 worth of platinum not six dollars worth of silver and great looking but unworthy of ownership........according to the short sighted.

The 2004 proof plat design only came as a proof and is much rarer than most of the so called classic TYPE coins issued since the late 1800s. A flat fact that THE CLASSIC GUYS DON'T LIKE TO HEAR.

mach19 · April 18, 2007 6:48AM

<< 

<< Collect what puts a smile on your face. >>

This is sound advice.

Collecting moderns is great just don't expect an investment return on them.

what is wrong with moderns!

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