Grade Opinions Please - 1853 Large Cent Attribution?
ipmman
Posts: 565
I am thinking of sending this one in as one of my 8 "free' submissions.
Any opinions?
Edited to add: Can anyone Attribute this? I don't have the Newcomb reference.
Any opinions?
Edited to add: Can anyone Attribute this? I don't have the Newcomb reference.
0
Comments
-Paul
dont show up.
if there is any doubt about it being cleaned its a waste of a submission imo.
<< <i>uncirculated details but, its hard to say from pics if it was improperly cleaned or if the original surfaces
dont show up.
if there is any doubt about it being cleaned its a waste of a submission imo.
Not cleaned, just the effect from one sideways incandescent light. This will definately not BB.
then i,d call it a 64.
Rob the Newbie
That coin will bag at PCGS. It has been recolored.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
You can find one of these in a problem-free AU grade and not spend much money to get it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
K S
As to the recoloring, I will take some new scans and post them later tonight. Based upon what I saw this would grade as Brown, not enough red there. Opinions?
With the exception of the 1855, late date Unc. coins of this series only had some problems re full denticles and star radials. The centers are very rarely mushy.
Obverse - There is wear above the lettering, LIBERTY. Look to the rt. of the letter B.
Reverse - The leaf in the upper wreath above the letter N has no detail whatsoever. This is the first place you look to see whether or not a coin is Unc. I have never seen an Unc. coin of this series stuck so poorly that it lacked this sort of detail in this particular leaf.
This is probably an AU 50, maybe 53 on a good day. Re varieties, I am guessing that most everything on this date is an R-1. If this is the case, so the specific variety per se is irrelevant.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Here is a link to a B & M NGC MS 64 listing, with images:
1853 NGC MS-64
It seems to have all of the qualities you dogmatically say should not be on this date in MS. The NGC MS-64 has no star radials, and has weak denticles. Just like my example. Actually, I saw an MS-65 (PCGS MS-65) also with undetailed leaf at the top of the wreath, so this seems to be a die charachteristic for some versions of this date, contrary to your claims. There are other examples I saw with more significant leaf detail as well, but a blanket statement that all examples of this era have the leaf detail is invalidated by these examples.
By the way, I never say at any point in this thread that my example is mint state. I considered it to be AU when I put up the picture, but after looking at other examples at the Bowers & Merena site, I do believe this could go Mint-State. As to recoloring, well it is going in as one of my 8, so I won't lose out too bad if it gets BB'ed.
I also note at Coinfacts that some varieties of this date are scarce and rare. The variety may be of significance to a serious collector.
In any event, your condemnation of this coin should be reconsidered in light of this info. The use of emotional adjectives like "mean" or "arrogant' have no place in this discussion, facts are facts, opinions are opinions, and emotions neither change or substantiate either. In other words, I don't care one way or the other how you "feel" about what you say, just support your facts. Remember, we're talking about coins.
Regarding variety, I am fairly sure that it is N-11, an R.2 variety. I can only use the date position for the variety attribution, so you will want to double check this one. Late date large cent attribution depends heavily on fine details that just won't show up on an image. For example, minor repunching, fine die lines, flow lines, lumps, miniscule cracks, etc. I would need the coin "in hand" to be certain.
Ipmman, you are correct regarding the fact that some mint state late date large cents are always weakly struck, especially in later die states. This is true for many series. Never grade early type by details alone. Surfaces are far more important.
It is a nice coin and probably close to mint state. My opinion regarding it being recolored is.....well.....just an opinion rendered from a small internet image. I have handled a lot of early copper and this one has the "recolored look", at least in the image it does. I think you should take a shot with the submission though. And please let us know the results.
Problems in strikes and die states re Large Cents (and Half Cents) typically are in in the earlier dates. Especially re Classic Head Large Cents, the quality of the copper wasn't very good, and as Numisma stated, the quality of the surfaces are more important than the details. I've also seen a number of Unc. Draped Bust Half Cents, and rarely is all of the detail present.
By the time of the late dated Large Cents, these striking problems were not typical any longer.
I'm not surprised that some of the kind of coins you have imaged / linked to have market graded to Unc. The powers that be can call them anything they like, but people who can grade them know that they are circulated. FWIW, five years ago, I lined up 10 NGC Braided Hair Large Cents in 4 BN with their PC equivalents. Every PC coin looked better than its NGC counterpart. This explained the price spread between them.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."