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My issue with Darin Whittaker has been resolved and he no longer owes me money - see first post
nederveit
Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭
Russ pointed out an earlier thread today about Darin Whittaker, BigD5.
I'm sure many of you have done business with him, he used to sell here regularly.
I had several great transactions with him, even met him in person. I asked him to
consign some coins (orignally purchased from him) about 1 year ago.
Long story short, I have the paper trail, I have Darin's admittance (and many
excuses about personal problems), and I'm out about $1,200.
I'm been extremely patient, and it's been difficult to track him down. As far as I'm
concerend this is felony theft. He sold the coins then spent my money.
Scott G.
===========================================================
I have been paid in full for Darin's debt, thanks to Ernie, who got involved with this
thread. Now there's a stand-up guy (Ernie). I'm sure he did not do this to gain customers,
but I wouldn't hesitate to do business with a man that has his character. Thanks,
Ernie, I really appreciate what you have done for me. And thanks to all the board members
for their support.
Scott G.
I'm sure many of you have done business with him, he used to sell here regularly.
I had several great transactions with him, even met him in person. I asked him to
consign some coins (orignally purchased from him) about 1 year ago.
Long story short, I have the paper trail, I have Darin's admittance (and many
excuses about personal problems), and I'm out about $1,200.
I'm been extremely patient, and it's been difficult to track him down. As far as I'm
concerend this is felony theft. He sold the coins then spent my money.
Scott G.
===========================================================
I have been paid in full for Darin's debt, thanks to Ernie, who got involved with this
thread. Now there's a stand-up guy (Ernie). I'm sure he did not do this to gain customers,
but I wouldn't hesitate to do business with a man that has his character. Thanks,
Ernie, I really appreciate what you have done for me. And thanks to all the board members
for their support.
Scott G.
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
The last time I tried his cell it was still working.
If you need any assistance or ideas on where to go from this point, shoot me a PM.
I probably won't be able to answer until tomorrow evening.
He'll shoot me a teaser e-mail about once every 2 months that he is sending the money,
but it never comes. Certified mail to (2) different addresses came back unopened.
I suspect family problems, but regardless, there's never an excuse for stealing.
I am truly sorry to hear about this. I worked with Darin on numerous occasions and it was always a pleasure but I haven't heard or seen from him for about a year. I hope that you can somehow get it resolved.
<< <i>Russ pointed out an earlier thread today about Darin Whittaker, BigD5.
I'm sure many of you have done business with him, he used to sell here regularly.
I had several great transactions with him, even met him in person. I asked him to
consign some coins (orignally purchased from him) about 1 year ago.
Long story short, I have the paper trail, I have Darin's admittance (and many
excuses about personal problems), and I'm out about $1,200.
I'm been extremely patient, and it's been difficult to track him down. As far as I'm
concerend this is felony theft. He sold the coins then spent my money.
Scott G. >>
Thank you for posting this. I posted the exact same problem with him a while ago and just about got tarred and feathered. I hope that you get your money back.
<< <i>I think he must be in real trouble to have not paid what he owes. >>
Short of death or disability, there is no "trouble" that excuses what he has done. He has been deliberately stringing Scott along for a year.
Russ, NCNE
and had many dealings with him buying and selling through the years. I would hate to see this Respected board member go down.
But, if that's the case..... Next?
As for this "circle of trust".....I can't believe people actually refer to it. I'm trying to remember where the term came from but I think it was largely tongue in cheek. RYK, was it you? Longacre?
Anyway, I only see people bringing it up to attack but no one ever stating "he must be good, he is in the circle of trust". Come on guys....there are cliques here, just like everywhere. When people get along with others and have good dealings with them, they will defend them. People on all sides of the fences defend each other. I've seen it here, and elsewhere.
No one ever "invited" me into any circle, and damned if I would get into any kind of circle knowing what many of you look like
However, I've dealt with Russ, handed him thousands in coins to sell and left them with him. Left him thousands in coins to photo as well. I trust him. Not from any "circle" but from his honest dealings with people.
Same with many of the others here.
Scott.....I hope you get a good resolution on this and am sorry for you that it has played out like this and for so long
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I have dealt with Darin through EBay and in person several times, and I did not experience any difficulties with any transaction. Hopefully a positive resolution will ultimately result from this situation.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
>>been extremely patient, >>
<<1 year ago>>
I would have to agree, "no excuse".
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
Only "Fraud", and to prove fraud, you need to prove intent. Really hard to do, impossible if your documentation shows he had unexpected family problems, etc.
I consigned a bunch of coins to Excelsior in Sacramento about 10+ years ago, and learned this the hard way. I called about my coins, and they claimed they returned the coins, but had no proof. They were really nasty and verbally abusive to me on the phone. I called the Sacramento Police. They told me about my voluntarily sending the coins not constituting a crime, and about the need to prove intent to fraud. I remember they told me it's not a crime to be a bad businessperson.
Best you can do is sue him, if you are in the same state. If not, then you are doing the right thing, word of mouth. Just tell everyone you know the truth about what happened, we are all able to draw our own conclusions about the dealer. Notice how I described my dealing with Excelsior Coin, notice how I didn't call them any names or accuse them of a crime. You all know whether you would do business with them. Be careful about calling him a thief, because then he can sue for slander, and then you need to prove he's a thief to defend yourself.
A vicious circle. Not fair, I know, been there, done that.
<< <i>Once you consign coins, there can be no "theft". You voluntarily gave him the coins.
Only "Fraud", and to prove fraud, you need to prove intent. Really hard to do, impossible if your documentation shows he had unexpected family problems, etc.
I consigned a bunch of coins to Excelsior in Sacramento about 10+ years ago, and learned this the hard way. I called about my coins, and they claimed they returned the coins, but had no proof. They were really nasty and verbally abusive to me on the phone. I called the Sacramento Police. They told me about my voluntarily sending the coins not constituting a crime, and about the need to prove intent to fraud. I remember they told me it's not a crime to be a bad businessperson.
Best you can do is sue him, if you are in the same state. If not, then you are doing the right thing, word of mouth. Just tell everyone you know the truth about what happened, but be careful about calling him a thief, because then he can sue for slander, and then you need to prove he's a thief to defend yourslf.
A vicious circle. Not fair, I know, been there, done that. >>
Actually, you are mistaken ...
California Penal Code Section 484.
(a) Every person who shall ... fraudulently appropriate property
which has been entrusted to him or her, or who shall knowingly
and designedly, by any false or fraudulent representation or pretense,
defraud any other person of money, labor or real or personal property
... is guilty of theft.
I'm not sure there is any other business where so much trust is the order of the day.
Every day thousands of coins float across the country "on memo". Every day thousands of coins change hands on a hand shake that is a good enough reason to grant 90 days to pay. Every day we all mail millions of dollars to people we don't know and have never met because they have hundreds of "attaboys" on ebay that show at least up to his last transaction he was ok. We don't even know the financial condition of all of the auction houses much less a "friend" we consigh coins to.
Considering all of the opportunities for fraud in this business it is truly amazing how little there really is.
I don't know Darin but it might be worth a try to offer a structured payment plan with easy payments over an extended period. It's better than absolutely nothing. If he is really desperate a lawsuit has the possibility of forcing him into personal bankruptcy. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer.
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
Almost impossible to do, prove "intent" and the burden of proof is on the accuser. Since we are talking criminal court, it will be the "state" or "county" or whatever. I see no harm with contacting the local police authorities, I just suspect he'll hear what I did, and they won't be willing to get involved.
Anything over 6 months I would say is excessive and the intent would be proven. Certainly over a year or two would constitute theft.
Especially with the combination of no responses from the receiver through numerous vehicles of contact
Take it to "The Peoples Court"
What I think people mean by the above is the following: Given the generally same situation, the responses that are posted can be wildly different depending on whether you are considered part of the "circle of trust".
If you are in the "circle of trust" and there is a negative post about you, responses will range from, it is just an oversight, I'm sure he didn't mean it, he's a great guy give him some time, no way would he tone a coin, the other party is wrong and/or must have done something to make the "circle of trust" member do what he did.
On the other hand if it was a nameless, faceless eBay seller or a poster here that is not liked and/or not in the "circle of trust", the responses are quite different even if the situations are generally the same. I'll let those that are interested to find those threads as there is really some nasty stuff written that I don't want to post.
Somehow, right and wrong get blurred depending on whether the "accused" is a friend or a relative.
Joe.
<< <i>However, I've dealt with Russ, handed him thousands in coins to sell and left them with him. Left him thousands in coins to photo as well. I trust him. Not from any "circle" but from his honest dealings with people. >>
This is just what you would expect from a member of the "circle".
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>[edited to delete a quote of a mistaken ID....leaving the original portion about what I see more than a few members talking about....this so-called circle of trust....]
As for this "circle of trust".....I can't believe people actually refer to it. I'm trying to remember where the term came from but I think it was largely tongue in cheek. RYK, was it you? Longacre?
Anyway, I only see people bringing it up to attack but no one ever stating "he must be good, he is in the circle of trust". Come on guys....there are cliques here, just like everywhere. When people get along with others and have good dealings with them, they will defend them. People on all sides of the fences defend each other. I've seen it here, and elsewhere.
No one ever "invited" me into any circle, and damned if I would get into any kind of circle knowing what many of you look like
However, I've dealt with Russ, handed him thousands in coins to sell and left them with him. Left him thousands in coins to photo as well. I trust him. Not from any "circle" but from his honest dealings with people.
Same with many of the others here.
Scott.....I hope you get a good resolution on this and am sorry for you that it has played out like this and for so long
Since you asked...
My first mention of the Circle of Trust was indeed somewhat a parody
And a further clarification
Finally, without trust between fellow collectors, we might as well be in a Middle Eastern bazaar, trying to discern whether the rug is for real or a cheap copy. How much enjoyable would that be?
<< <i>I guess this is the sort of stuff Laura has in mind sometimes ...
Thisis exactly what I mean.
Because someone posts here is NO reason to trust them. You hardly ever know who is really hiding behind a keyboard or what they are thinking/doing. >>
This can happen with a big dealer or small one. You never know when some life changing thing will happen to someone. Who knows what happened? A car accident? brain injury? death in the family and taking it hard? sick child with no insurance? A partner in business screwed you? Had all your cash tied up in Enron? Crack cocaine(yes even rich people lose with this stuff)? None of these are excuses for Darin or anyone else but how do I know a big dealer I am having business with does not have one of these problems that could lose my money with him?- heck they say just one hit off a crack pipe and it's over and I have had friends lose everything this way.
What Darin did do for me was be a friend. He alway's seemed genuinely interested in my coins wether I was selling or just showing off. He would bump up my threads on the BST forum when they fell down on the list. He helped sell coins for me and gave me pointers on coin stuff.Plus I don't ever remember him saying one mean thing to anyone on the forum.
The people that did lose money should be calling the local police department in his town and pursue this legally- their really is no other choice if you wish to get your money back.
For once, I am in total agreement with Ms. Laura.
but how do I know a big dealer I am having business with does not have one of these problems that could lose my money with him?- heck they say just one hit off a crack pipe and it's over and I have had friends lose everything this way.
This is true. There's a "big dealer" who is in deep trouble because he sold hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of other dealer's coins on consignment, but kept the money. Rumor has it that it is a drug problem.
This in no way makes what is going on here OK -- just a way to slightly protect yourself so that it does not gradually dawn on you after a year or whatever that you've been had.
<< <i>As far as proving "intent" I believe it would come down to what a reasonable persons expectation of completion of the transaction would be (consigning coins) if no set time frame was agreed upon.
Anything over 6 months I would say is excessive and the intent would be proven. Certainly over a year or two would constitute theft.
Especially with the combination of no responses from the receiver through numerous vehicles of contact
Take it to "The Peoples Court" >>
Yes, ultimately it comes down to what 12 reasonable people believe "beyond a reasonable doubt" in a criminal courtroom, but it begins with an investigator willing to investigate, and a prosecutor willing to prosecute, and I couldn't get even to the first base with Sacramento to Police when I complained to them about the missing coins I had sent to Excelsior coins of Sacramento and never saw again.. Also, in California, there is also some "consignment" code section that applies, I don't recall which, but you need to formalize the consignment by sending a notice by certified mail or something. Again, it was over 10 years ago for me. There was no internet back there to blog on either, and believe me, I was really upset at them, I would have been everywhere complaining about them, tellin everyone the facts about Excelsior coin of Sacramento.
Who? You know who. Excelsior Coin of Sacramento never paid me, or returned my consignment, that's who. Did they steal from me? I don't know if Excelsior coin of Sacramento stole my money. I have no idea whether Excelsior Coin of Sacramento are thieves or not. I can't prove that Excelsior Coin of Sacramento stole my coins. I know I sent Excelsior Coins my coins, and they never sent me money, and I never got the coins back from them. I know I called Excelsior Coins, and they confirmed they had my coins. I know a month or so later, Excelsior coins of Sacramento said they had already sent the coins back. I know I never recieved my coins back from Excelsior coins of Sacramento, and I never recieved any compensation for the missing coins, or any proof they were sent back. I know that at the time I felt that Excelsior coins of Sacramento were a bunch of thieves, especially after the man at Excelsior coins cussed me out on the telephone, and then hung up on me. I know I will never forget what happened, and will will always recall the mistake I made when I sent my coins to Excelsior Coins of Sacramento.
I have a strong feeling that the loss of my coins, and the ill will it created on my behalf towards Excelsior Coins of Sacramento has remained, and will continue to bother me for years to come.
So I have no idea what you can do to the consignee to get him to pay you, nothing ever worked for me when Excelsior Coins of Sacramento failed to get my coins back to me. Not forgetting is a pretty decent way to cope with my loss though. Also, I know I will never trust Excelsior Coins of Sacramento, and will never do any kind of business with them again. Perhaps if you remember and recall what was done to you, you will feel better too. And remember to share your memories with others, the more the merrier.
<< <i><< However, I've dealt with Russ, handed him thousands in coins to sell and left them with him. Left him thousands in coins to photo as well. I trust him. Not from any "circle" but from his honest dealings with people. >>
This is just what you would expect from a member of the "circle". >>
I am not in anyones circle and also have sent thousands in coins to be photographed by a forum member. Also it is the norm to have payments sent to me pass the coins being setn out in the mail to forum members. It has nothing to do with circles but rather individuals.
<< <i>
<< <i>Once you consign coins, there can be no "theft". You voluntarily gave him the coins.
Only "Fraud", and to prove fraud, you need to prove intent. Really hard to do, impossible if your documentation shows he had unexpected family problems, etc.
I consigned a bunch of coins to Excelsior in Sacramento about 10+ years ago, and learned this the hard way. I called about my coins, and they claimed they returned the coins, but had no proof. They were really nasty and verbally abusive to me on the phone. I called the Sacramento Police. They told me about my voluntarily sending the coins not constituting a crime, and about the need to prove intent to fraud. I remember they told me it's not a crime to be a bad businessperson.
Best you can do is sue him, if you are in the same state. If not, then you are doing the right thing, word of mouth. Just tell everyone you know the truth about what happened, but be careful about calling him a thief, because then he can sue for slander, and then you need to prove he's a thief to defend yourslf.
A vicious circle. Not fair, I know, been there, done that. >>
Actually, you are mistaken ...
California Penal Code Section 484.
(a) Every person who shall ... fraudulently appropriate property
which has been entrusted to him or her, or who shall knowingly
and designedly, by any false or fraudulent representation or pretense,
defraud any other person of money, labor or real or personal property
... is guilty of theft. >>
Maybe I'm lost but last time I checked, Darin did not live in California.
This would most likely be a CIVIL MATTER. I would suggest that anyone that has not received their money or their coins contact Darin's PD or LEA and ask them to do a favor and speak with him or attempt to reach him. Chances of them doing this are slim especially if they are a large agency but it doesn't hurt to ask. If they will let you, file a report with THEM.
<< <i>
<< <i> >>
This can happen with a big dealer or small one. You never know when some life changing thing will happen to someone. Who knows what happened? A car accident? brain injury? death in the family and taking it hard? sick child with no insurance? A partner in business screwed you? Had all your cash tied up in Enron? Crack cocaine(yes even rich people lose with this stuff)? None of these are excuses for Darin or anyone else but how do I know a big dealer I am having business with does not have one of these problems that could lose my money with him?- heck they say just one hit off a crack pipe and it's over and I have had friends lose everything this way.
What Darin did do for me was be a friend. He alway's seemed genuinely interested in my coins wether I was selling or just showing off. He would bump up my threads on the BST forum when they fell down on the list. He helped sell coins for me and gave me pointers on coin stuff.Plus I don't ever remember him saying one mean thing to anyone on the forum.
The people that did lose money should be calling the local police department in his town and pursue this legally- their really is no other choice if you wish to get your money back. >>
Exactly. I certainly hope everyone who trusted Darrin is made whole, but I will continue to have compassion for D and whatever circumstances has taken him to this point.
The situation is absolutely indefensable. Absolutely. Indefensable.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Note: People really do need to know which IDs/ebay IDs they are talking about before posting them
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>How can he not reply?
The situation is absolutely indefensable. Absolutely. Indefensable.
Keith....Darin (who the thread is about and, as it states in the first post) is BigD5 on ebay.....you guys need to get your names/IDs/facts straight
Duly edited. Sorry for my ingnorance
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Wow that will teach me to lurk
Please don't sue me
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>As RYK indicated, I am happy to also confirm that I was not the original creator of the Circle of Trust™. To me it was just a parody that has taken on a life of its own. >>
It also evolved from the "circling of the wagons" where certain forum members would defend one of their own to the death whether or not he was in the wrong ... this situation comes to mind
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>I will take credit for being the true originator of the Circle of Trust. >>
Let's see some proof.
<< <i>
<< <i>I will take credit for being the true originator of the Circle of Trust. >>
Let's see some proof.
It originated in the Open Forum, unfortunately the records are lost. Too bad so sad.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I will take credit for being the true originator of the Circle of Trust. >>
Let's see some proof.
It originated in the Open Forum, unfortunately the records are lost. Too bad so sad. >>
I invented the Internet