PCGS Grading what to think?

Haskett · February 21, 2007 4:02PM

I got my first submission results back tonight, I knew they were tough on lincolns, but this is unreasonable. They all came back in a body bag.

Are they just looking for a reason not to grade them? What I have is a collection of my late fathers, who collected these coins in the late 60's and early 70's. They have been in whitman albums for the last 35+ years. A truly beautiful collection, and he documented where and when he bought each one. After studying up a bit, and getting a good loupe, I was able to weed out the whizzed coins, and the few with pvc on them. These coins have toned, some more than others, in this album and are very nice looking and most all MS. An entire series of flying eagles, Indian cents and lincoln cents except for one coin, the 1856. The first batch came back "questionable colorRD" but the 22 no D came back as "not genuine" and the one whizzed coin I sent came back "altered surface". I missed that one, but knew it would be BB'd when I saw it was bought from that one dealer, so that wasn't a suprise. I've got another 60 coins in transit that I sent to them, now I wish I wouldn't have. I think with all this fraud going on in the coin business, and the PCGS guarantee, they would rather not do the service we are paying them to do as a submitter. But yet, they charge us the same as if they did. What in the world have I gotten into here?

this makes me sick.

people faking toning, people taking apart slabs, and putting lesser graded coins in them and selling them. I mean, not to mention any names, but my Dad purchased coins he thought were genuine through trusted dealers who are big time now, only to find out he was snookered. Maybe that's why he never had them slabbed. He didn't want to know. I'm sure that the coins that got BB'd for questionable color are ok, I don't think PCGS is doing it's job. I thought the fraud in collecting artifacts was bad, it's NOTHING compared to this. As he would have put it, "this is a can of worms". So, what to do, what to do.............

Richard

WTCG · February 21, 2007 4:08PM

It is impossible to argue the merits of ungradeable coins without seeing the coins in person. It is not in the best interest for any grading company to reject grading any coin that is suitable to their standards, so there is no agenda not to grade your coins.

It is also possible that your dad unknowingly purchased counterfeit coins in the past. It's a mistake that most people make once in a while.

Here's a link to a thread I wrote regarding bodybagged coins: Why fees aren't refunded for bodybagged coins

HighRelief · February 21, 2007 4:10PM

You would think PCGS knew what they were doing

Sorry to hear that your coins were BB

lordmarcovan · February 21, 2007 4:23PM

Your father collected coins in the "Bad Old Days" before grading services. There is no telling what was floating around out there. Sure, it's like the Wild West these days, but I think it was probably worse back then. You just see more fraud now because it's right there on the Internet instead of in back rooms of coinshops or buried in some magazine ad. And the market is probably a lot bigger than it used to be. And much more global.

Maybe your Dad got snookered, but maybe his "trusted dealers" were snookered themselves, when they bought the coins. Maybe they didn't know any better, either.

I agree that at first glance it seems sucky that a grading service will take your money and bodybag your coin and say, "nope, sorry, no refund." But as pointed out in that link, they invest time and money in examining the coins, no matter how they they turn out, good or bad. It takes a grader time to determine that a coin is bogus, or artificially toned, or whatever. And in business, time is money.

"Questionable color" means just that- it's questionable. They aren't necessarily saying it is artificial. They're just saying, from their point of view, that it could be. They don't have inside information on your coins. They don't know how long your Dad had them, or who had them before that, or what was done with them. All they have to go on is what they see there in front of them. And they have to be cautious and conservative, or their reputation would suffer.

Don't get me wrong. I feel your pain. And I have had a few bodybagged coins- most of us have. And we've all gnashed our teeth and grumbled about it, too.

But you have to see both sides of the issue. Look at it from PCGS' point of view. Pretend you weren't the owner and were the person examining them for the first time. Well, maybe you can't. Sometimes seeing things that objectively isn't possible. I can't always do it, once I've fixed my opinion on something. But I do try to keep an open mind.

If the coins were ALL bodybagged, I say take 'em all and put 'em right back where your Dad had 'em... in an album. And keep his records and so on! They'll be more enjoyable as an old-time collection.

Gotta take your lumps and move on. Sometimes the learning experience is valuable (even if your lesson is to never submit again). The lesson I have gained from getting burned like this (though maybe not as bad as you did) is to not have ANY expectations when I send coins off for third-party grading. I try to prescreen them as best I can but then I withold my expectations as much as possible. I have gotten both pleasant and unpleasant surprises. Graders are human, too, and their opinions vary as much as anybody's.

One thing about the "no refunds for bodybagged coins" stance is that it forces folks to be more selective about what they submit, which is good.

Haskett · February 21, 2007 4:58PM

<<They don't have inside information on your coins. They don't know how long your Dad had them, or who had them before that, or what was done with them. All they have to go on is what they see there in front of them. And they have to be cautious and conservative, or their reputation would suffer.>>

this reminds me of a time when I was surveying and my friend pulled a nice spearhead out of the ground right in front of my eyes. I eventually bought it from him and years later sent it away to an authenticator, to get a fix on the type it was. He sent it back saying it was modern. I knew he was wrong, so I sent him everything I picked up from that site, a box of broken pieces and 3 other blades i had. He looked at the whole picture and graded that spearhead a G-10. I knew it was authentic. But I didn't have to pay him the second time around.

It just seems to me, that they DO have an agenda, they error on the side of caution, when in doubt, throw it out. People who are sure it's OK resubmit. and resubmit, each time they collect a fee.

What kind of reputation do they have when you crack a coin out of a PCGS holder and submit it again hoping for a higher grade and it comes back BB'd? What kind of reputation do they have when you take that BB'd coin and resubmit it again and it comes back a grade higher than the first time?

What, if any, other grading services are there, that are a little more consistent and not fearful of grading coins?

Richard

Tyler1924S · February 21, 2007 6:05PM

Maybe you can post pics of these BB'd coins here so we can see what's up.

PLE · February 21, 2007 6:54PM

I feel your pain. It is really irritating when zero percent of your submission is graded. It's even more irritating when you first try a "crossover" submission and zero percent is successful.

ipmman · February 21, 2007 7:51PM

I feel your pain as well. PCGS is tough! I send in a collection of Charlotte and Dahlonega gold coins slabbed by ANACS, and they bagged em all as cleaned! None of the ANACS slabs indicated they were cleaned. I was out a few bucks, but learned a lesson.

I NEVER buy ANACS gold coins, never. On the other hand, I feel 99.9% comfortable when I buy a PCGS slabbed coin.

I rarely buy slabbed coins though, as I actually enjoy handling my coins, and holding a slab just isn't the same.

Are you a coin collector? Why/how did you decide to send in all of those coins to PCGS? If you intend to sell them, and they are decent, you really don't need to slab them, not unless they are mint-state coins, IMHO.

I hope you fare better on the remaining submissions.

PLE · February 21, 2007 8:36PM

Because PCGS discontinued their photo service, I am trying NGC.

PerryHall · February 21, 2007 9:25PM

<< I NEVER buy ANACS gold coins, never. >>

You need to cut back on the Kool Aid. I have many ANACS gold coins which are correctly and even consevatively graded. Like ALL sevices, I've seen some grades that I disagree with but overall they do a good job.

pb2y · February 21, 2007 10:00PM

Back in the 70s many 1922 no d Lincolns suddenly showed up--an easy coin to to fake and not so easy to spot. Your other Lincolns?? ---hard to say.

Preussen · February 21, 2007 10:07PM

With all due respect to your father, I'd guess that it's more likely he had some bad coins than it is that PCGS would have some "agenda" not to grade 'em. -Preussen

Haskett · February 22, 2007 3:08AM

<<With all due respect to your father, I'd guess that it's more likely he had some bad coins than it is that PCGS would have some "agenda" not to grade 'em. -Preussen
>>

Oh, no doubt about it, he had some bad coins.
But.....it seems clear to me that all the high dollar coins in this collection aren't bad. When I joined PCGS, they told me that the graders aren't 'numistmatists' they don't know the values of certain coins, they don't know who's coins they are grading, and that the values don't vary much between one grade and the next. So, they see a 55/55 double die, they don't grade that a little harder or tighter because it's a $10,000 coin? They are basically insuring that coin in that grade for life for a $50 fee? In my opinion, they don't want to do that. Their answer??----Questionable colorRD.

<<Are you a coin collector? Why/how did you decide to send in all of those coins to PCGS? If you intend to sell them, and they are decent, you really don't need to slab them, not unless they are mint-state coins, IMHO.>>

I started collecting coins back in the 70's, but went onto other things in the last 20 years. When looking closely at my fathers collection, I decided it was best to get these mint state pennies out of these whitman albums, a few were developing spots (PVC) and you could see tiny pieces of the blue album that were falling onto these high mint state cents. So, I thought I would get them slabbed, and help preserve them better. I don't intend to sell them.

Richard

ziggy29 · February 22, 2007 3:08AM

Live by the slab, die by the slab. Apparently it's not possible to enjoy a coin unless it's in the right plastic any more.

Russ · February 22, 2007 3:29AM

<< people taking apart slabs, and putting lesser graded coins in them and selling them. >>

I haven't heard of this. Do you have examples?

Russ, NCNE

TomB · February 22, 2007 3:47AM

Your father collected his cents in days that were far worse than today and it was very common to have MS or even high end AU copper coins dipped in order to bring out a red color that would fool many folks. These same coins generally are rejected by the TPGs today as questionable, which is the correct determination. The 1922-D issue is quite commonly altered to appear to be a no-D coin, and your father may have bought one of those. Lastly, the fact that your father had a number of whizzed coins in his collection infers that he could not reliably tell an original coin from an altered coin and, as such, may have had more altered coins in his collection than you or he realized.

Going simply by what you have written, I would believe that the batch of coins you sent in had been dipped or recolored more easily than I would believe that PCGS had an agenda when they viewed them. Could PCGS have been wrong on some of them? Most likely. Could PCGS have been wrong on most or all of them? Unlikely. Do I believe that the graders at PCGS can spot problems much more efficiently than nearly anyone who submits coins? Absolutely.

Haskett · February 22, 2007 3:50AM

Russ,

Fortunately no, I do not have any examples. I just read some stuff, like this post.link

Richard

percyb · February 22, 2007 3:58AM

Can anyone opine on NGC?

291fifth · February 22, 2007 4:05AM

PCGS graders look at thousands and thousands of coins like this. They get very, very good at spotting problem coins. The fact that your father purchased the coins many years ago insures you of nothing. I have been collecting since 1961 and can tell you that there was a lot of bad material being offered back then and in every year since. The coin field has always attracted the "ethically challenged."

You just learned an expensive lesson. Complaining about PCGS isn't going to get a cent of what you lost back because they were probably right to bodybag what they did.

DeusExMachina · February 22, 2007 4:08AM

I'm sorry to hear about your body bags.

As a business model, PCGS has to be tough on coins. If they holder everything, then they trade their reptuation for a grading fee. That said, I have had some coins BB'd and was shocked. I purchased an original 1851-O $2.50 in an OGH graded F-15. I though the coin was undergraded so I cracked it and sent it in. It came back cleaned. The coin has 0 hairlines and a thick skin. If the coin was cleaned, it happened many years ago and it was not a damaging event. I doubt the coin was ever cleaned but it is 150+ years old so how really knows for sure.

At this point, I own a raw, very original coin b/c I bought the coin not the holder. I enjoy the coin just the same (despite the BB) and may send it again just for the TrueView.

My 2 cents....

Haskett · February 22, 2007 4:20AM

<<If they holder everything, then they trade their reptuation for a grading fee. That said, I have had some coins BB'd and was shocked. I purchased an original 1851-O $2.50 in an OGH graded F-15. I though the coin was undergraded so I cracked it and sent it in. It came back cleaned. The coin has 0 hairlines and a thick skin. If the coin was cleaned, it happened many years ago and it was not a damaging event. I doubt the coin was ever cleaned but it is 150+ years old so how really knows for sure.>>

That is a good example of what I'm talking about. It leads me to believe 1 of 2 things happened with your 1851-O. It was replaced in the holder before you bought it, or they are inconsistent in their grading.

Richard

AlixTCat · February 22, 2007 6:47AM

<< 
I started collecting coins back in the 70's, but went onto other things in the last 20 years. When looking closely at my fathers collection, I decided it was best to get these mint state pennies out of these whitman albums, a few were developing spots (PVC) and you could see tiny pieces of the blue album that were falling onto these high mint state cents. So, I thought I would get them slabbed, and help preserve them better. I don't intend to sell them.

Richard >>

You can't get PVC damage from a Whitman album.

Jonathan

DeusExMachina · February 22, 2007 6:51AM

<< <<If they holder everything, then they trade their reptuation for a grading fee. That said, I have had some coins BB'd and was shocked. I purchased an original 1851-O $2.50 in an OGH graded F-15. I though the coin was undergraded so I cracked it and sent it in. It came back cleaned. The coin has 0 hairlines and a thick skin. If the coin was cleaned, it happened many years ago and it was not a damaging event. I doubt the coin was ever cleaned but it is 150+ years old so how really knows for sure.>>

That is a good example of what I'm talking about. It leads me to believe 1 of 2 things happened with your 1851-O. It was replaced in the holder before you bought it, or they are inconsistent in their grading.

Richard >>

Try the latter. The OGH slab was not tampered with at all. My point is that all human beings are inconsistent (no matter what they do) and that it makes sense for PCGS to err on the side of caution.

Looking back on it, I should have kept in the OGH and enjoyed it the way it was.

TomB · February 22, 2007 6:52AM

<< That is a good example of what I'm talking about. It leads me to believe 1 of 2 things happened with your 1851-O. It was replaced in the holder before you bought it, or they are inconsistent in their grading. >>

The probability that the 1851-O was replaced in the holder is vanishingly small, however, the chance that there is inconsistency in grading is enormous.

pharmer · February 22, 2007 7:26AM

You are being asked repeatedly to post images of these, so we can comment from an informed standpoint. But you haven't done so, or said why not. So, I'll join the chorus and ask that you post images of these.

Haskett · February 22, 2007 9:21AM

<<You are being asked repeatedly to post images of these, so we can comment from an informed standpoint. But you haven't done so, or said why not. So, I'll join the chorus and ask that you post images of these. >>

I haven't posted pictures yet because the pictures I have are very detailed but do not show the colors very well. However, a new camera is on it's way, and you can bet your bottom dollar I will be posting pictures of some awesome looking pennies, and buffs. Whether some say they're dipped, stripped, cleaned, recolored, artificially toned, whizzed, altered, faked, tooled, I have sure had a fun 3 weeks going through them, looking at them under magnification, and seeing the rainbows of colors, the different strikes and so on. Absolutely a fascinating hobby, but with anything collectable, you have cheats and repros and fraud, all for a $$$$. I am not educated enough to invest any more money into this rackett.

Richard

clackamas · February 22, 2007 9:39AM

Sorry to hear about the BB's. It has happend to all of us. Lincoln's, unless you know them very well, may appear original. It is and has been a very common practice to treat them to appear original RED. They are called Pumpkins, because they look like Pumpkins. When these previously treated coins tone, they tone in a different way than original RED coins. I can't really explain it in another way, it is just something you pick up after looking at them, for years. I can spot one across the room but my dad will see no problem. PCGS knows its copper, they are very tough on grades, but they also guarantee copper, even the color with a full money guarantee.

topstuf · February 22, 2007 9:46AM

In the future, the coin will have to be MAGNIFICENT to get me to take an NGC slab. Take a browse through the "Buy Now" section of Heritage and go to the Classic gold half eagles.
What? ONE PCGS? Now take a look at the COINS.

The pix ain't the best, but scratches is scratches and detail is detail.

Edited to add that I found ANACS (old holder days) to be VERY conservative on gold. I've cracked "nets" and AU's and just OFFERED them for offers at shows and gotten BU prices.

JRocco · February 22, 2007 10:05AM

<< Your father collected his cents in days that were far worse than today and it was very common to have MS or even high end AU copper coins dipped in order to bring out a red color that would fool many folks. These same coins generally are rejected by the TPGs today as questionable, which is the correct determination. The 1922-D issue is quite commonly altered to appear to be a no-D coin, and your father may have bought one of those. Lastly, the fact that your father had a number of whizzed coins in his collection infers that he could not reliably tell an original coin from an altered coin and, as such, may have had more altered coins in his collection than you or he realized.

Going simply by what you have written, I would believe that the batch of coins you sent in had been dipped or recolored more easily than I would believe that PCGS had an agenda when they viewed them. Could PCGS have been wrong on some of them? Most likely. Could PCGS have been wrong on most or all of them? Unlikely. Do I believe that the graders at PCGS can spot problems much more efficiently than nearly anyone who submits coins? Absolutely. >>

Agree with Tom 100%

Can you post a pic of the 22 plain that bagged---the color is unimportant on this one and showing a nice detailed pic of an altered 22D may teach some newbies and youngins on this board what to look out for.
Thanks in advance.

derryb · February 22, 2007 10:07AM

Haskett,
got a link to the PCGS shared page with a list of your coins?

Frankcoins · February 22, 2007 6:27PM

From about 1960 through the mid 70s, copper coins were frequently dipped in acid, wire brushed, then treated
with another chemical to turn them (generally) bright orange red. Even the Boy Scout handbook for a coin collecting
merit badge advised "The first thing you should do when you add a coin to your collection is to CLEAN IT"

Writersblock · February 23, 2007 4:05AM

<< When I joined PCGS, they told me that the graders aren't 'numismatists' they don't know the values of certain coins, they don't know who's coins they are grading, and that the values don't vary much between one grade and the next. >>

I find it hard to believe they would tell you that. Most of their graders are numismatists and many of them have worked as dealers. They DO know coins , and they DO know values.

<< You can't get PVC damage from a Whitman album. >>

True, but what were they in before they were put in the Whitman album? Possibly plasticized vinyl flips?

Preussen · February 23, 2007 4:44AM

<< <<With all due respect to your father, I'd guess that it's more likely he had some bad coins than it is that PCGS would have some "agenda" not to grade 'em. -Preussen
>>

Oh, no doubt about it, he had some bad coins.
But.....it seems clear to me that all the high dollar coins in this collection aren't bad. When I joined PCGS, they told me that the graders aren't 'numistmatists' they don't know the values of certain coins, they don't know who's coins they are grading, and that the values don't vary much between one grade and the next. So, they see a 55/55 double die, they don't grade that a little harder or tighter because it's a $10,000 coin? They are basically insuring that coin in that grade for life for a $50 fee? In my opinion, they don't want to do that. Their answer??----Questionable colorRD. >>

I doubt very seriously that any PCGS grader is going to be intimidated and afraid to grade a $10k coin...they see 'em every day. Again, with all due respect, I think that while you are (rightfully) disappointed, I don't think you're gaining much support here on your PCGS conspiracy theory. The idea that PCGS was so "wowed" by these amazing coins that they were afraid to grade 'em is preposterous. Sorry, JMO. -Preussen

Haskett · February 23, 2007 10:44AM

I appreciate everyones responses. It all helps me to understand the picture. Isn't it possible that because of PCGS's guarantee, they grade high dollar coins with more scrutiny than say someone who doesn't have the same guarantee? And coins they BB, could still be untampered with and therefor get graded at another grading service?

When a collector back in the 60's and 70's puts trust into coin dealers and numistmatists, to help assemble a folio of coins to enjoy and pass on to future generations, you would think they would know their coins. After all, that's their business. That being said, do coin dealers knowingly manipulate and alter coins and/or knowingly offer manipulated coins to their clients in hopes of them buying it? Without telling them? And it's the buyers fault because he or she isn't educated in the tricks of the trade? Sounds like a game of cutthroat. So, this is the coin game. OK

Richard

TomB · February 23, 2007 10:57AM

I wouldn't call it a game, however, coin dealers can be like any other segment of society. Therefore, you will have plenty of ethically challenged folks who sell coins just as you will have plenty of wonderful, honest folks who sell coins. The added wildcard is that some dealers may be little more knowledgeable than neophyte collectors, but may or may not realize it. It is ultimately up to the person who is spending their money to be educated in order to protect themselves, their investment and their heirs.

The PCGS guarantee does not just cover the PCGS grade, rather, it covers counterfeits and against the loss of a PCGS graded coin "turning" in the holder. Since grading is subjective, there is significant room for interpretation, and a very small percentage of coins will ever be outliers in grade. Certainly, some of the bagged coins might be graded by another service and they also might be graded by PCGS if they were submitted again, but if you are not fairly adept at what you are looking at then I would advise against throwing money away until you are fluent in grading and surface manipulation.

pharmer · February 23, 2007 11:03AM

You're being unnecessarily paranoid about pcgs's motives in issuing grades or bb's. And you're making serious allegations. Show us some of these coins with whatever camera you've currently got, that will only take a few minutes to do, and post them. Then we can address your concerns in a knowledgeable manner.

NowhereMan · February 23, 2007 11:14AM

Sounds like you're learning a valuable lesson the hard way. I've got my share of BB's too, but unfortunately, it sounds like in your case the system is working the way it's supposed too.

It's not perfect, but it's SO much better than it used to be.

Rex

jdimmick · February 23, 2007 11:15AM

Based on your post, and other responces, and having looked at enough collections, I am pretty sure PCGS was in the know on this collection.

PLE · February 26, 2007 10:20AM

Here is what I've noticed about "Questionable Color RD".

I am not sure, but I think that PCGS doesn't grade cents as MS63Red! I've never seen any PCGS cents with that grade. I suspect PCGS thinks that, if a cent is RED, then it has to be MS64 or better. Every cent that I've submitted that would be MS63RED comes back BB as "Questionable Color".

I imagine other grading companies will grade those coins. After all, shouldn't it be possible for a cent to be MS63RED?

clackamas · February 26, 2007 10:43AM

<< Here is what I've noticed about "Questionable Color RD".

I am not sure, but I think that PCGS doesn't grade cents as MS63Red! I've never seen any PCGS cents with that grade. I suspect PCGS thinks that, if a cent is RED, then it has to be MS64 or better. Every cent that I've submitted that would be MS63RED comes back BB as "Questionable Color".

I imagine other grading companies will grade those coins. After all, shouldn't it be possible for a cent to be MS63RED? >>

I have two MS63 RD Early Lincolns, a 1912 (has a light scratch) and an 18-D (spotted).

Lucky711 · February 26, 2007 11:29AM

Hi Richard,
I had a similiar situation, why am I wasting my money submitting coins to a company that gives no reason for a NOT GENUINE coin.

I've read some interesting stories on the internet that go back a few years...

If someone found a hoard of 1894-s barber dimes, they would probably be labelled NOT GENUINE to protect the Fat Cats that hold these coins...to protect their values.

Let's say hypothetically, China is selling genuine Trade Dollars and the Big Wigs know it, they would label all these coins as NOT GENUINE so their coins don't loose value.

Let's see how long this reply stays up before they yank it for fear of.......

OneCent · February 26, 2007 12:17PM

<< Hi Richard,
I had a similiar situation, why am I wasting my money submitting coins to a company that gives no reason for a NOT GENUINE coin.

I've read some interesting stories on the internet that go back a few years...

If someone found a hoard of 1894-s barber dimes, they would probably be labelled NOT GENUINE to protect the Fat Cats that hold these coins...to protect their values.

Let's say hypothetically, China is selling genuine Trade Dollars and the Big Wigs know it, they would label all these coins as NOT GENUINE so their coins don't loose value.

Let's see how long this reply stays up before they yank it for fear of.......

>>

Although what you say may be tempting to believe at times, I just don't buy it.

PCGS has their own standards that coins must meet in order to get into their plastic. These standards may differ from what you, I or the man on the moon may have for their coins. As such, if you want the PCGS seal of approval then you play by their standards. Do they miss some grades, sure...but not very many.

fcloud · February 26, 2007 12:56PM

Chalk it up as learning. Maybe you can call them and stop the order you sent them from being processed. I think they are probably rightfully BB. The problem is it cost you a bundle to find out. Study the returned coins carefully and learn how to look for the problems you see on the coin in those BB. I had a few BB over the years I study those coins more than the ones that get graded. Better luck next time.

Bochiman · February 26, 2007 3:01PM

<< Hi Richard,
I had a similiar situation, why am I wasting my money submitting coins to a company that gives no reason for a NOT GENUINE coin.

I've read some interesting stories on the internet that go back a few years...

If someone found a hoard of 1894-s barber dimes, they would probably be labelled NOT GENUINE to protect the Fat Cats that hold these coins...to protect their values.

Let's say hypothetically, China is selling genuine Trade Dollars and the Big Wigs know it, they would label all these coins as NOT GENUINE so their coins don't loose value.

Let's see how long this reply stays up before they yank it for fear of.......

>>

You've really got a chip on your shoulder, don't you?

WTCG · February 26, 2007 3:22PM

<< Hi Richard,
I had a similiar situation, why am I wasting my money submitting coins to a company that gives no reason for a NOT GENUINE coin.

I've read some interesting stories on the internet that go back a few years...

If someone found a hoard of 1894-s barber dimes, they would probably be labelled NOT GENUINE to protect the Fat Cats that hold these coins...to protect their values.

Let's say hypothetically, China is selling genuine Trade Dollars and the Big Wigs know it, they would label all these coins as NOT GENUINE so their coins don't loose value.

Let's see how long this reply stays up before they yank it for fear of.......

>>

If you feel you are wasting money submitting coins for grading then stop submitting coins for grading.

Haskett · February 26, 2007 3:36PM

<>

Well put. I will do that. I got to realizing last night that this collection of lincolns may be quite unique in the fact that there may be so many BB coins in it. I quickly weeded out the whizzed coins with help of this forum, and the help of the great records my father has with the coins. All the whizzed were from the same dealer. The 1911-S, 1912, 1912-D, 1913-S, 1914-D, 1915-s, 1916-s, 1917-s, 1922-D, 1924-D, 1926-s, 1927-s. OUCH, that hurts. I thought, ok, maybe something can be salvaged yet. The 1922 no D is not genuine. The 1955 double die is questionable colorRD. Now we are getting into another arena I know nothing about, but I'm sure the graders at PCGS do, and I am sure some of you do too. The 1909-s VDB is purty but I have no expectations any more. It will be graded shortly along with 20 others. Like I said before, I have a camera coming, and I will post pictures. This collection could be valuable after all, and maybe some of you can explain why these coins look the way they do. The picture I have of the 22 no D is too dark to see what we need to see. But after comparing it with others for sale, I think the D must have been removed, the T in liberty doesn't run into R. The words IN and WE are just slightly mushy, and he has a strong coat. In fact it looks just like the whizzed 22-D and on that coin, the D can only be seen by tilting it, it's very weak. It also has a dark brown obverse with a red reverse, very suspicious, like it was darkened. ... to hide something perhaps??
This whole situation is almost funny in a way. I wonder if 36 years is too long to return a coin cuz a few of the dealers he got them from are still in the BIZ!!

Richard

Richard

DeusExMachina · February 26, 2007 3:44PM

<< Hi Richard,
I had a similiar situation, why am I wasting my money submitting coins to a company that gives no reason for a NOT GENUINE coin.

I've read some interesting stories on the internet that go back a few years...

If someone found a hoard of 1894-s barber dimes, they would probably be labelled NOT GENUINE to protect the Fat Cats that hold these coins...to protect their values.

Let's say hypothetically, China is selling genuine Trade Dollars and the Big Wigs know it, they would label all these coins as NOT GENUINE so their coins don't loose value.

Let's see how long this reply stays up before they yank it for fear of.......

>>

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, both top tier TPGs tend to be easier and more forgiving with rare coins. And most of the trade dollars coming out of China these days are counterfeit. If you don't believe me, roll the dice on ebay but don't spend more money than you are willing to flush down the toliet.

oxy8890 · February 26, 2007 3:47PM

We have all had BBs, it appears that some of us just don't dwell on it as much as others. I always try to look at the coin and find out "why" it has been BBed. I actually pulled several coins out of a whitman album a couple months ago (my guess is that they had been in this album for a minimum of 20-25 years). I sent them in for grading and they came back fine. They were graded between MS63RD to MS65RD. I also had several coins from that book that I did not send in that were cleaned or looked unusually shiney. Now I did have 2 coins come back RB that looked full red to me but, that's the way it goes.

Elcontador · February 26, 2007 4:15PM

Richard, I started collecting coins in the 1960s, as a teenager. There were a lot more problem coins floating around back then; but relatively speaking, most weren't as expensive as they are now. The top tier grading services provide a bit of an "insurance policy" with their holders now, but back then, you were on your own. Your only protection re keys were the diagnostics in various coin books to help you spot counterfeits. Your only protection re coins with artificial color or altered surfaces was being familiar with the ways coins were manipulated.

Like today, most coin dealers were basically concerned with buying coins, marking them up and selling them. Many did not / do not know how to grade, and others don't care. I saw all sorts of problem coins over the years. Usually, the likes of PCGS manages to keep them out of their holders.

Copper is a very reactive metal, and if you play with it, sooner, rather than later, it will go bad. For this reason, many people prefer uncirculated copper that was holdered many years ago. This way, you don't risk buying a RD Large Cent was just made and looks fine, but could go bad in three months.

Several big pluses today are the internet; far more information is available now. Also, the top tier services usually catch bad coins. Back then, there were very few dealers I trusted. As a kid, most wouldn't give me the time of day, and most of the ones I met were "less than honorable" people.

Suggestion: Don't bother putting images of the coins here. Unless the images are good and the coins are hideous, their problems might not be readily apparent. You often can't see carbon flecks, hairlines or other problems from images. I will never buy a coin from an image.

Take the nicest of the coins to a large coin show. Before you go, post here that you will be at the such and such show, and ask forum members whom do they think are good with Lincoln Cents & would these folks be kind enough to look at three or five of your coins.

Haskett · February 28, 2007 2:41PM

first beating
second beating

are they tough or what? Guess they don't like toned lincolns

Richard

TomB · February 28, 2007 3:00PM

Perhaps it is my settings, but I am getting a PCGS membership login page from your links. Again, it might just be a problem on my end.

PCGS Grading what to think?

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