Do Presidential dollars and State quarters cheapen Numismatics?
braddick
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Is coin collecting worsened due to the froliferation of common modern coins collected and hoarded generally by beginners and the unsophisticated?
I'm not speaking of silver; gold, and platinum Eagles, nor of genuine scarce and rare key and semi-key coins from the 1960's, give or take, but rather the coins (mint units) that are struck in the hundreds of millions made of clad and other non-precious metals.
If so, I imagine we're not alone as certainly baseball card collectors and stamp collectors feel the same pain.
I'm not speaking of silver; gold, and platinum Eagles, nor of genuine scarce and rare key and semi-key coins from the 1960's, give or take, but rather the coins (mint units) that are struck in the hundreds of millions made of clad and other non-precious metals.
If so, I imagine we're not alone as certainly baseball card collectors and stamp collectors feel the same pain.
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Comments
-David
Possibly I should have taken a bit more time in thinking through my question and concerns. I can remember, as a young child, having my dad fill up the family vehicle at the local Shell station and receiving presidential brass tokens as a promotional giveaway.
I look at the new George Washington dollar and it reminds me of those tokens.
They look painfully cheap and now I see the Services jumping on the "first day of issue" bandwagon, holdering them in special insert holders and the such and I believe I can smell the ever so faint scent of stupidity mixed with whoredom in the air.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm just showing my age a little.
peacockcoins
debased crap pennies in 1909 cheapen numismatics?
One has to look at this with a very short time perspective to ask such a question. It's
a pretty safe bet that not many Washington dollars will be selling for a huge premium
in a hundred years but that's not why people lined up in 1909 and it's not why they are
lining up now.
<< <i>They look painfully cheap and now I see the Services jumping on the "first day of issue" bandwagon, holdering them in special insert holders and the such and I believe I can smell the ever so faint scent of stupidity mixed with whoredom in the air. >>
Exactly. It's not the coins themselves but the likely rush to slab hundreds of thousands of them because, as we all know, with plastic comes profit.
<< <i>One has to look at this with a very short time perspective to ask such a question. It's
a pretty safe bet that not many Washington dollars will be selling for a huge premium
in a hundred years but that's not why people lined up in 1909 and it's not why they are
lining up now. >>
Depends. Are we talking about kids filling coin albums or speculators buying a bunch of rolls to put in slabs and re-sell?
That is a huge difference between now and 1909.
Steve
And what exactly is bad about beginners and the "unsophisticated" as implied by this post? Weren't we all "unsophisticated" when we started?
So yes, it does "cheapen" numismatics and that's a good thing. Else normal people would never probably get started at all.
Rob
He told me if I could do 100 in a row, he'd give me a silver dollar. I did push ups every single night all summer long. I kept improving, and after about 6 months I could do 100 push ups in a row. Sadly, that guy died and I never did get my dollar, but I realized then: Quarters never cheapened a thing !
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<< <i>No, what cheapens numismatics is those that create and or sell AT monster coins. Those that dip and clean coins. Those that decieve others. these are things that cheapen numismatics. The US Mint, even with all the stuff they put out year after year only help numismatics. >>
e.g. First Day Cover
Box of 20
If anything, the State Quarter program has increased the collecting community and perhaps the prexy bucks will continue it on.
The name is LEE!
100
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The entry point into numismatics was cheap for most of us. Think of a gift from Grandpa or finding good dates in rolls at face value. If you entered numismatics by buying "investment grade coins", you have probably left the hobby in disgust by now.
The state quarters and presidential dollars are a lot like the half dollar classic commems.
For $25 face value in quarters or $80 in dollars a novice collector can have a good time assembling a nice set. Without the lure of precious metals in change, the new coins give beginner collectors a way into the hobby at low cost. Most of the quarters can be found in circulation, however, the early ones are hard to come by, as are coins from the P or D mint in certain cities. It is a non-trivial set for a person to find nice examples for each coin. The presidential dollars are a bit more contrived, but many post offices will stock them in their vending machines.
At some point the flood of new products from the mint will kill the goose. Right now, on balance these programs have been a positive.
<< <i>As I see it, the question is whether proliferation of U.S. Mint issues in search of collector revenue will make the "hobby of kings" one that easily distracted consumers and their kids will grow tired of pursuing because there is to much to accumulate on a budget for a "complete" collection.
The entry point into numismatics was cheap for most of us. Think of a gift from Grandpa or finding good dates in rolls at face value. If you entered numismatics by buying "investment grade coins", you have probably left the hobby in disgust by now. >>
The proliferation of US Mint issues isn't really affecting collectors of contemporary series like the Lincoln cents, Jefferson "perfect coins" nickels, Roosevelt dimes, Kennedy halves or Sac dollars is it? Aren't those series growing about the same as they always did? Isn't it the commems, state quarters and presidential dollars that are doing the proliferating? And aren't most new state quarter collectors perfectly happy getting coins out of circulation? If Presidential dollar collectors are that way too, then it's really only the commems (incl First Spouse) that are unmanageable. Also if one just concentrates on modern silver NCLT dollar commems, aren't there only a couple of issues per year (2 Franklins + SF Old Mint in 2006; Jamestown and box with feet in 2007) if one doesn't start off collecting both MS and PF? It seems that there are many manageable ways to collect modern issues to me.
I also never really understood the desire to buy "everything" the Mint puts out. A while ago, I posed a question about how many collectors actually try to collect every Mint product ATS and the responses I got was that it was a fairly small group of people relative to all coin collectors. I hear a lot complaints about Mint proliferation of products but how many people really try to buy everything?
I hope that these newer collectors will realize the real values are still out there in 20th century type coins.
I say - but the ones you like to look at!!
<< <i>I also agree that the Mint after is getting carried away - too many new coins all at once, after years of putting nothing interesting out at all (possible exception 1976 - love those 76's). It presents a problem for those who want one of everything. >>
What percentage of coin collectors want one of everything? If there are more collectors that would like a little here and there, might there be more collectors overall with more Mint issues?
<< <i>Do Presidential dollars and State quarters cheapen Numismatics? >>
There are things that cheapen numismatics but it ain't that.
The things that cheapen it are AT commons. All processed stuff for that matter. And some of the lesser TPG's really cheapen up the marketplace. Colorization, gold plating, platinum plating, coin painting...... the list could just go on.
The Presidential Dollars and the State Quarters are getting many in the door to serious numismatics. There is nothing bad or cheap about that.
To me it is the same thing just there are more people in the country now so they have to make more coins. Although 300,000,000 sounds like a lot for one president. It would be different if they can actually circulate. Doing my part and just bought 1000 of these to spend and ruin their mint state status.
and feel it won't be long until they advertise specific issues on television
which makes them par with Coin Vault as far as I am concerned
they are not cheapening Numismatics, they are cheapening themselves
<< <i>Do Presidential dollars and State quarters cheapen Numismatics? >>
Absolutely not.
in the hobby, thats a good thing. I think a profile would have been a better choice.
What would George think of his coin?
The change to memorial cents caused some to leave numismatics, and the change from silver coinage (and SMS set production) cause more of the same. Until very recently, the mint's production of collector products, as a percentage of those who collect coins, has probably been pretty similar to time periods gone by, but the new products introduced by the mint recently have most likely brought in a larger percentage of new collectors than did any of their changes of the past.
Therefore, I feel that rather than cheapen numismatics, the mint recently has more likely enhanced numismatics, given the broader prospective of time.
<< <i>Do Presidential dollars and State quarters cheapen Numismatics? >>
No, I think they already have, and will continue to, ignite some new interest in the hobby for at least a season.
- Jim
<< <i>Is coin collecting worsened due to the froliferation of common modern coins collected and hoarded generally by beginners and the unsophisticated?
I'm not speaking of silver; gold, and platinum Eagles, nor of genuine scarce and rare key and semi-key coins from the 1960's, give or take, but rather the coins (mint units) that are struck in the hundreds of millions made of clad and other non-precious metals.
If so, I imagine we're not alone as certainly baseball card collectors and stamp collectors feel the same pain. >>
My take on it is this... If people (the young, the masses, the inexperienced) want to lay out good money for "modern junk" or whatever people call it, it only serves to drive the vintage stuff upwards. So they make 300 million washington dollars, and they're never going to circulate so all 300 million will be GEM BU in 3 decades from now, and people wanna spend double face for them--what does that do for the Ikes? Or the Morgans and peace dollars? Because I can say look, they only made 100 million of these, or 50 million, and they're 100 years old and they're silver, and they circulated and finding them in GEM BU is rare, so what would you give me for that, it's surely better than the washington dollars everyone is coveting--and people agree, and so the morgans go up in price. And with baseball cards, $500 for a game used patch, manufactured rarity autograph refractor whatever--when you can buy the whole damn jersey for $500, and sooner or later the market realizes this and the game used jersey increases in price. And the vintage cards which were never mass produced to begin with, where few remain in mint condition--the prices for those rise as well. It's the same with real estate, too. You see some 1 bedroom dive condo cross the 100K barrier, and all the neighboring units which are better begin to compare themselves to that precident, and they charge more, and they get more for them, because value is assigned by consumers in a large part by comparison.
So no, it doesn't cheapen the hobby, it eventually has the effect of making people realize how truly scarce and valuable a vintage coin is, when compared to the modern mass produced stuff that people are spending big money on.
Collecting things that are affordable to most people is a peoples hobby. It is fun and should be encouraged; A small percentage of the collectors of modern state quarters and presidential dollars will become the hard core collectors of the future.
Collecting rare US coins is a very expensive hobby not possible or not proper for the average person.
Buying and selling rare US coins has become a very specialized and often lucrative business.
It is my impression that many people on this forum have some type of profit perspective to their interest in coins. If you question my assessment on the latter point, read the content of most of the posts. This is not judgmental, simply a fact.
Now my editorial.
Rare things are more valuable than common things.
Paying a large premium for something that is readily available is frequently done and promoted by some of our forum members.
Paying premiums for common things will rarely turn out to be good investments for the end holders.
Thus the premium must be equal to the joy of owning; if the premium is greater than the joy of collecting then you should seek another hobby.
No the state quarters and president dollars do not cheapen numismatics, and in themselves they do not cheapen collecting. We leave that to the speculators.
Collecting at its best.
At this point I will no longer be tryin to get complete year set from circulation anymore.
Of course, none of this takes away from my interest in collecting other US coins, like half cents, large cents, and sacs, among others that interest me.
Just imagine that there are 100 collectors, all of whom will only actively begin a collection if they can reasonably expect to complete it within their financial means. Only 1 of the 100 could actively pursue a collection of the finest known due to the cost, but as the cost of the collection decreases, then there the number of collectors who can actively particpate will increase. State quarters and Presidential Dollars being among the most affordable can easily be collected by all 100, but it is viewed as inferior by those who can afford "better" (more expensive) alternatives to collect. So only those who can not collect anything else are left to the "inferior" collections by their financial limitations. That is why I think it improves the hobby.
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<< <i>For now, perhaps. I think it is great for long term numismatics, however. Some of the young collectors of state quarters right now will be among the market makers of the future. The state quarters, IMHO, has insured that coin collecting doesnt go the way of stamp collecting.
-David >>
I agree David. Modern series are much more educational than 100 year series.
While I love the old stuff, I've always seen the advantage in stamp collecting. The commemoratives
which teach a lot of history associated with the year they were issued.
My brother, who suggested I collect pennies in the '40's, collected stamps.
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
Presidential dollars, yes.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Both these series have made numismatics much stronger
Edited to add: I'm not certain of the Unc. count. I know that the mint will be using a different method to apply the edge lettering to Proof coins so that the letters will all have the same orientation on all coins. I haven't heard if this will also apply to the Satin finish coins as well. Which could reduce the number of collectible Uncs. by 8 per year.
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<< <i>I think the state quarter program was a good idea, it gave each state a chance for an identity on circulating coinage! The DPD's are just going to far! >>
Don't forget the First Spouse program!
<< <i>Do Presidential dollars and State quarters cheapen Numismatics? >>
My short answer is yes & no - but given how you have stated your question, I would say not in that order.
>>>My Collection
<< <i>Do Presidential dollars and State quarters cheapen Numismatics? >>
Nope. Collectors have to start somewhere and not every new collector's first coins can be uber rare classics.
Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.
The issues themselves have generated a ton of interest, and have brought many YN into the hobby. Something needed to be done to create a spark in the dead presidents collection, or Numismatics would die without the infusion of new collectors.
On the other hand all of the theatrics with the godless dollars, and the sac/quarter mules etc. are a disgrace. They definatly cheapen Numismatics.
But there are a lot worse culprits who ate hurting our hobby by their criminal behavior, such as:
1) An army of thieves selling upside down lettering GW's
2) Sellers of Chinese fake Trade and Liberty seated dollars (would you buy either raw on ebay?)
3) sellers of fake Indian peace medals
4) Fake widows selling their alleged dead husbands collectoions with more sob story than collector value (and folks pay a ton for the sob story)
And I must also mention:
1) People dumb enough to part with their money to buy 1-4 above
And last but not least:
1) Ridiculous prices for "grade rarity" modern issues. They are worth face value, period. There is no way that 100 years from now, anyone will pay more than face value for a coin with a mintage of hundreds of millions, regardless of grade. Think about tit. They simply do not have intrinsic value, regardless of how sharply struck Lincoln's mole is! OK, go ahead and flame me...
However, old and truly rare things remain pretty desireable
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
A collector by definition is someone who collects or accumulates things regardless of it being string, cereal boxes, sports card or ear wax. If by minting these coins it attracts people to the beauty and enjoyment of the hobby then that is a good thing. There will always be a market for rare and key date coins and there will always be a market for inexpensive mass produced coins.
Thanks to the state quarters both my kids are interested in coins. Their eyes lit up when I opened the rolls of GW's I bought and they each picked out some to "collect". Every time my boys get handed change back from a sale I see them sifting through it looking for something interesting or old (they look for errors, silver and anything that to them is "old") Many times they come to me holding a coin by its edges and stick it in my face asking "Dad, look at this! Is it anything I should keep?"
I wonder if there had been message boards in 1878, what the numismatists of the day would have had to say when they heard the mint was coming out with a "new silver dollar" and began minting millions of Morgans?