I too find it hard to believe that an attorney would tell these people to take these coins to the Gov't and let them authenticate them
I don't. In the eyes of the law, it's important to have 'clean hand's. Izzy didn't because he swore he didn't have any more. How much that taints his family's claim remains to be seen. But by turning them in, they've certainly got a better claim in my mind. And who really wants to try to sell ten of those things on the black market and then justify the cash to the IRS. Much, much better to do it this way.
[disclaimer: I'm not an attorney and have only a lay understanding of the law. All assertions about legal matters made by me are my unqualified opinion only]
<< <i>[ [disclaimer: I'm not an attorney and have only a lay understanding of the law. All assertions about legal matters made by me are my unqualified opinion only] >>
But you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last nite, right?
<< <i>I too find it hard to believe that an attorney would tell these people to take these coins to the Gov't and let them authenticate them
I don't. In the eyes of the law, it's important to have 'clean hand's. Izzy didn't because he swore he didn't have any more. How much that taints his family's claim remains to be seen. But by turning them in, they've certainly got a better claim in my mind. And who really wants to try to sell ten of those things on the black market and then justify the cash to the IRS. Much, much better to do it this way.
[disclaimer: I'm not an attorney and have only a lay understanding of the law. All assertions about legal matters made by me are my unqualified opinion only] >>
Excellent point. I also believe the family specifically proceeded in this manner in order to make it more easy to assert the coins were illegally siezed, rather than wait for the government to actually get a warrant or whatever and go actually sieze them.
Sorry Mark, I don't think so. I think the family blundered and was not expecting things to play out quite the way they have. Oh yes, someone might have foolishly advised them that sending the coins to the Mint would give the appearance of voluntarily surrendering them in good faith, or better yet, creating the illusion that the family had no idea that these coins were ill-gotten, and therefore they should have untainted title. That is laughable. Their attorney should be fired; the Government's position has been crystal clear, regardless of whether we agree with it.
Of course the owners knew that the gov't would seize the coins, and they almost certainly understood the risks and benefits of this course of action. Obtaining good title to the coins required producing them one way or another to create a justiciable dispute. You're selling the Switt/Langbord lawyer short.
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Actually, I can't find where the government ever made that specific representation.
>>
From the book Illegal Tender:
The catalogue stated that this '33 was the only example the government ever intended to authorize for private ownership and that any other examples that might exist were also government property and subject to seizure, a point that was regularly stressed to the press.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
I think the family has handled this perfectly! Logically the course they have taken is the only legal way to deal with the situation.
1) Have the government validate the coins. 2) Fight the battle for legal ownership. 3) Win clear title. 4) Sell the coins for ungodly amounts (and pay off your contingency attorneys).
I predict within two years they will have free and clear ownership and will sell the coins.
I think if that happens the guy that bought the first one will receive some kind of compensation.
Don Willis Premium Numismatics, Inc. myurl 800-596-COIN
Maybe they are stolen or maybe not. But the Constitution says that they cannot be seized without "due process of law", unfortunatly drugs laws etc have allowed the government to consider anything they do to be "due process'. This is BS. They need to go to court and prove they we stolen in order to confiscate them.
Now heres the twist. They were not seized. These people were dumb enough to hand them over. Now they may be forced to prove they own them to get them back. Possession is now in the hands of the Gov't.
Actually, I can't find where the government ever made that specific representation.
>>
From the book Illegal Tender:
The catalogue stated that this '33 was the only example the government ever intended to authorize for private ownership and that any other examples that might exist were also government property and subject to seizure, a point that was regularly stressed to the press. >>
I'm not sure if that is a direct quote from the government or not. Even if it is, however, I think the word "intended" leaves a bit of wiggle room to change their minds. Also, while they may have said "any other examples that might exist were also government property and subject to seizure" didn't guarantee that the government would prevail, if challenged on that point.
I am still shocked that the government is parading the 10 coins around like a circus act, given they should have known the ownership of them would be litigated.
<< <i>Has it crossed anyone's mind that maybe there were 20 coins in the safe deposit box? >>
When the settlement is reached (and that is how this will end), there will be a clause that any other 1933 $20's the Switt family has and has not revealed will be turned over to the govt.
I think the family is looking to hit a home run with these. Had it been me, after the attorney advised me to turn them in, I would have headed for Canada and sold the lot. Don't need a protracted case that I MIGHT win. I'll take a quick $10-$20 million for selling damaged goods. Let someone else fight the fight.
I asked a lot of questions after reading the Double Eagle book. The consensus is that a few others exist.
Joe
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I was under the impression that the Government's argument was that since there was no record of any $20's being exchanged during the short window that it would have been possible to do so (and being government, records were supposedly kept regarding exchanges.....), the coins were never released and are therefore 'stolen'. I mean, if there is no record of any being exchanged, and records were supposed to be kept detailing those types of exchanges, it does sort of lend credence to the claim that they were not released into circulation legally. Especially if there are 10 or 20 of them floating around. One or two, maybe, someone forgot to write it down or the papers were lost.......but at least 11 of them ? To the same person ? And no record of the exchange ?
One of the things I hate about our legal system is that we no longer can ever get a "fair and speedy" trial. This case will drag for years thru the court systems. It is already a couple of years old. The lawyers involved will continue to get paid, etc. And we all know that this will either be settled out of court with money being exchanged or it will eventually go to the Supreme Court where those guys will decide. Let's talk about it again next holiday season. I can assure you the status will be the same. Steve
<< <i>There is no such thing as a statute of limitations that will make something stolen suddenly yours to keep. >>
Of course there is! If the statute of limitations has expired, the object stolen cannot be confiscated by a government authority BECAUSE it was stolen. If it is contraband, that's a different story, but because the statute of limitations has expired for theft, legally, the theft never happened.
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I will continue to disagree with some of you ... I think the family will never get the coins back, nor do I think they should ever get the coins back. Other great collectors of the day surrendered their specimens, but Switt held on to his clandestine and tainted booty. (Hey that sounds kinda nasty LOL.) I think the Government's policy on the 1933 double eagles was irrational, but the Government certainly does have a STRONG interest in preventing unauthorized or illegitimate coin or currency from leaving the Treasury in any manner.
I agree with Connecticoin that it is shocking that they are parading around the confiscated coins like a circus act. It is as though they are saying, "Ha ha, you can't own these, BUT WE CAN." And in terms of the family's potential case, that might just be the best (unintended) consequence of the ludicrous submission of the ten coins to the Mint.
Personally I think there werre sleazy dealings at the Mint, the coins are tainted and were illegally obtained, and (in my purely speculative personal opinion) the heirs knew it perfectly well.
But the owner of that Fenton "Farouk" coin must be mighty angry ... that's definitely going to lead to a suit ...
There is one problem here......the current owner of the 1933 $20 can't sue the government wihtout revealing their identity. Whoever it is, I get the feeling that their privacy is worth even more than the $7.59M they spent for the coin.
The government has confiscated many things with little or no authority to do so. What about all the Indian Treaties our government continuously and purposely broke to steal land from Native Americans? Have Native Americans been adequately reimbursed for their losses?
IMO, the family should not be entitled to any settlement money if they lose ownership. They knew they owned contraband and they shouldn't be paid damages because their contraband was confiscated. Do drug dealers get compensated when their contraband substances, personal property, homes and cars suddenly become government property?
The coins belong to the government and the family knew that for many years. Now they want millions of dollars for keeping Daddy's little secret. What kind of justice allows family members to receive monetary rewards for hiding contraband?
I don't think the government will take the stance that the coins were stolen. Rather, I see them using law that says it's illegal to own the contraband and confiscation is the appropriate punishment for the deed. Stolen or NOT doesn't matter. Possession of the coins WAS and IS still illegal. No compensation should go to the family just because they saved 10 coins from the melting pot. Those coins should be melted and struck as One big unique Golden Buffalo coin to be auctioned to highest bidder. The money from the auction should help keep the penny alive and reduce the premiums individuals must pay to own proof versions of minted coins or commemoratives.
Hope I'm still alive when this one settles - would like to see the outcome.
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<< <i>I will continue to disagree with some of you ... I think the family will never get the coins back, nor do I think they should ever get the coins back. Other great collectors of the day surrendered their specimens, but Switt held on to his clandestine and tainted booty. (Hey that sounds kinda nasty LOL.) I think the Government's policy on the 1933 double eagles was irrational, but the Government certainly does have a STRONG interest in preventing unauthorized or illegitimate coin or currency from leaving the Treasury in any manner.
I agree with Connecticoin that it is shocking that they are parading around the confiscated coins like a circus act. It is as though they are saying, "Ha ha, you can't own these, BUT WE CAN." And in terms of the family's potential case, that might just be the best (unintended) consequence of the ludicrous submission of the ten coins to the Mint.
Personally I think there werre sleazy dealings at the Mint, the coins are tainted and were illegally obtained, and (in my purely speculative personal opinion) the heirs knew it perfectly well.
But the owner of that Fenton "Farouk" coin must be mighty angry ... that's definitely going to lead to a suit ...
Best, Sunnywood >>
You're right, Sunnywood, the owner of the Fenton coin is likely to be really angry about this. And how do we know the Fenton coin is the Farouk coin - - the Farouk coin (for which the government issued an export license) could be one of the Switt coins, for all we know.
When you say there were sleazy dealings at the Mint, I think we might be applying the ethical standards of today to a time period over 70 years ago. Philadelphia has had a lot of coin dealers through the years, and I'm sure they contacted Mint officials regularly to find out when new coins were being issued, just like current collectors contact their banks today. And since the government considered one double eagle equal to another double eagle, it probably wasn't illegal to switch one year's double eagle for another year's.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
"I think the Government's policy on the 1933 double eagles was irrational, but the Government certainly does have a STRONG interest in preventing unauthorized or illegitimate coin or currency from leaving the Treasury in any manner."
<< <i>"I think the Government's policy on the 1933 double eagles was irrational, but the Government certainly does have a STRONG interest in preventing unauthorized or illegitimate coin or currency from leaving the Treasury in any manner."
like the 1913 liberty nickels? >>
You have proof these coins were minted at a government facility? You would be the first one.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Some Historical information about the 1933 $20 Gold Double Eagles
It became illegal for private citizens to own gold coins, unless they clearly had a collectible value. This law was enacted during desperate times to prevent the hoarding of gold currency. Since there would be no more gold currency issued in the U.S., the Mint had melted down the 1933 run of Gold Double Eagles and converted them to gold bullion bars by 1937.
Two of the 1933 specimens were given by the Mint to the U.S. National Numismatic Collection at the Smithsonian Institute. These were the only two legal specimens to ever become part of a coin collection; however, by 1952, the Secret Service had confiscated 8 more 1933 Double Eagles! How did they leave the Mint? Why weren't they melted down?
Was the 1933 Double Eagle Switched for Another Coin? We may never know for certain how these coins left the Mint, but there is a general consensus among scholars that a Mint cashier by the name of George McCann exchanged about 20 1933's doomed for destruction and replaced them with earlier dated Double Eagles. This way, the accounting books would balance and nobody would realize that anything was amiss.
What we do know for sure is that a Philadelphia area jeweler by the name of Israel Switt came into possession of at least 19 of the coins.
Israel Switt sold at least 9 of the 1933 Double Eagles privately to collectors, one of which found its way into the collection of King Farouk of Egypt. When the Secret Service discovered that these coins had surfaced, they confiscated them all because they were considered to be stolen property of the U.S. Mint. However, King Farouk had legally exported his coin before the theft was discovered, and the Secret Service was unable to recover his specimen through diplomatic channels.
After King Farouk was deposed in 1952, his 1933 Double Eagle briefly appeared on the market, but when it became clear that U.S. authorities still wanted to confiscate it, it vanished again! More than 40 years later, British coin dealer Stephen Fenton showed up with it in New York, and the Secret Service finally seized it during a sting operation during which they purportedly negotiated to purchase the coin.
Fenton fought a several year-long legal battle in the U.S. courts over ownership of the coin, during time which it was stored in the Treasury Vaults at the World Trade Center. A mere 2 months before the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, the lawsuit was settled and the Double Eagle was moved to Fort Knox. Fenton and the U.S. Mint had come to a compromise: the coin would be sold at auction, with the proceeds split between the Fenton and the Mint.
The 1933 Double Eagle sold at auction on July 30, 2002, for $6.6 million, plus the 15% buyer's fee, which brought the total cost to the buyer to $7,590,000, plus $20 to monetize the coin and compensate the Mint for the $20 it believes it lost when the coin was thought to have been stolen. The buyer chose to remain anonymous, so once again we don't know where the Farouk specimen is, or when it might suddenly show up again. One thing is for sure: the Secret Service can't confiscate it any more!
In September of 2004, Joan Langbord, one of Israel Switt's heirs, discovered ten more specimens of the 1933 Double Eagle amongst his effects. Apparently unaware of the legal status of these coins (or perhaps just a bit too trusting of the government) she sent all ten specimens to the U.S. Mint to have them authenticated. The Secret Service declared the coins to be seized, and now Langbord is fighting the government over ownership while the specimens languish at Fort Knox.
At that time in 1933, an exchange of double eagles did NOT require any paperwork to be filled out. It was standard practice, and perfectly legal. Any '33 Saints obtained in this way during the three week window of opportunity were not obtained illegally and are not stolen. The government cannot prove that this never happened.
Also, Treasury Secretary Woodin was known to have at least one '33 Saint in his possession. Government shenanigans or not, I seriously doubt that he obtained his illegally. There was no need. A simple exchange is all that was needed to get them.
Its already been a couple of years since the family turned them over to the Mint. The Mint then took its sweet a$$ time to "authenticate" the 33's. I bet you anything that its going to be another 5 years before it all said and done, and by that time the owner of the "Farouk" specimen will have sold his by then.
While '33 Saints have been part of the country's numismatic lore for as long as I can remember, this suit should continue to hold intrigue for many decades to come....Can you imagine the pressure the Secret Service put on Swift back in the 50s. I'd love to hear that story. Cold cases still are revived from the '50s--I wonder if some Secret Service officers that were involved in the original case might even step forward as government witnesses to recound their recollections--Somewhere burried deep in the government's archives are files relating to all of their interaction with Swift. Boy, wouldn't it be cool seeing that come to light.
I personally was shocked that the family turned them in. Personally, if it were me, you could leave me in a room with the coins and feed me nothing but bread and water for a year, and I doubt I'd tire of them.
<< <i>dont be surprised to see the judge in this case on a lavish hunting trip with treasury officials just before the trail runs its course >>
A hunting trip with Dick Cheney may be more appropriate.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I predict the Gov will win this one based on their consistent policy of ceasing all privately held 33 Saints. The best that the family can hope for is ten ounces of gold in compensation.
"It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
I believe the government's position is that no double eagles where paid out during this "window of opportunity" and nothing to do with a switch a roo, though the books say nothing about this.....
Making me want to go back and read Illegal Tender and Double Eagle again is what this thread is making do.....
I can't see these coins being melted down even if the government wins this case.....
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<< <i>Its already been a couple of years since the family turned them over to the Mint. The Mint then took its sweet a$$ time to "authenticate" the 33's. I bet you anything that its going to be another 5 years before it all said and done, and by that time the owner of the "Farouk" specimen will have sold his by then.
Just my thoughts...
Later, Paul. >>
The owner of the Fenton/Farouk coin will not sell it now, not with the possibility out there that 10 more will be legalized. The $7.59 million value was based on 1 coin being available to own, not 11.
Oh, and 100!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Ah the mystery and the hyperbole continue... and no one has yet mentioned that the family may have documentation that gives justification to their claim. Cheers, RickO
<< <i>If someone steals something, then passes it down a few generations, even if the current generation did nothing wrong, isn't it still stolen in the first place? >>
I dunno......... Ask an American Indian about some land they owned at one time ..........
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Comments
I don't. In the eyes of the law, it's important to have 'clean hand's. Izzy didn't because he swore he didn't have any more. How much that taints his family's claim remains to be seen. But by turning them in, they've certainly got a better claim in my mind. And who really wants to try to sell ten of those things on the black market and then justify the cash to the IRS. Much, much better to do it this way.
[disclaimer: I'm not an attorney and have only a lay understanding of the law. All assertions about legal matters made by me are my unqualified opinion only]
<< <i>[
[disclaimer: I'm not an attorney and have only a lay understanding of the law. All assertions about legal matters made by me are my unqualified opinion only] >>
But you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last nite, right?
<< <i>I too find it hard to believe that an attorney would tell these people to take these coins to the Gov't and let them authenticate them
I don't. In the eyes of the law, it's important to have 'clean hand's. Izzy didn't because he swore he didn't have any more. How much that taints his family's claim remains to be seen. But by turning them in, they've certainly got a better claim in my mind. And who really wants to try to sell ten of those things on the black market and then justify the cash to the IRS. Much, much better to do it this way.
[disclaimer: I'm not an attorney and have only a lay understanding of the law. All assertions about legal matters made by me are my unqualified opinion only] >>
Excellent point. I also believe the family specifically proceeded in this manner in order to make it more easy to assert the coins were illegally siezed, rather than wait for the government to actually get a warrant or whatever and go actually sieze them.
Of course the owners knew that the gov't would seize the coins, and they almost certainly understood the risks and benefits of this course of action. Obtaining good title to the coins required producing them one way or another to create a justiciable dispute. You're selling the Switt/Langbord lawyer short.
Edit for typo.
TD
<< <i>
Actually, I can't find where the government ever made that specific representation.
>>
From the book Illegal Tender:
The catalogue stated that this '33 was the only example the government ever intended to authorize for private ownership and that any other examples that might exist were also government property and subject to seizure, a point that was regularly stressed to the press.
1) Have the government validate the coins.
2) Fight the battle for legal ownership.
3) Win clear title.
4) Sell the coins for ungodly amounts (and pay off your contingency attorneys).
I predict within two years they will have free and clear ownership and will sell the coins.
I think if that happens the guy that bought the first one will receive some kind of compensation.
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800-596-COIN
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Now heres the twist. They were not seized. These people were dumb enough to hand them over. Now they may be forced to prove they own them to get them back. Possession is now in the hands of the Gov't.
I would have held a private sale in Europe.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Actually, I can't find where the government ever made that specific representation.
>>
From the book Illegal Tender:
The catalogue stated that this '33 was the only example the government ever intended to authorize for private ownership and that any other examples that might exist were also government property and subject to seizure, a point that was regularly stressed to the press. >>
I'm not sure if that is a direct quote from the government or not. Even if it is, however, I think the word "intended" leaves a bit of wiggle room to change their minds. Also, while they may have said "any other examples that might exist were also government property and subject to seizure" didn't guarantee that the government would prevail, if challenged on that point.
I think the government has a difficult case, simply because alot of there evidence can't be bought into court.....
The plaintiffs have the perfect attorney for this case.....
Who did not see this coming?
Also the coin that sold for 7.59 million is the Fenton coin not the Farouk coin, the government would not call it that.....
My guess is they settle out of court, with a portion to the government, a portion to the family and a portion to the owner of the "legal" one.....
This thread is going to get really long
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Has it crossed anyone's mind that maybe there were 20 coins in the safe deposit box?
Good point - does anyone really think all the coins are out ???
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<< <i>Has it crossed anyone's mind that maybe there were 20 coins in the safe deposit box? >>
When the settlement is reached (and that is how this will end), there will be a clause that any other 1933 $20's the Switt family has and has not revealed will be turned over to the govt.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Legal precedent established via the Farouk specimen,export license granted in 1945.
no way to prove the coins were stolen or obtained illegally.
Coins will drop in value to say 5 mil or so but plenty of deep pocket collectors will pony up the cash.
Even if the family has to split with the government its still 25 mil.
<< <i>The government cannot confiscate private property without just compensation. >>
Are you new?
Russ, NCNE
I asked a lot of questions after reading the Double Eagle book. The consensus is that a few others exist.
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>The government cannot confiscate private property without just compensation. >>
Are you new?
I was rather wondering which government he was talking about. Surely not the US government, right? Maybe Canada....
We have accounted for what 21 of these 25 with a picture of a 22 existing.....
I mean, if there is no record of any being exchanged, and records were supposed to be kept detailing those types of exchanges, it does sort of lend credence to the claim that they were not released into circulation legally. Especially if there are 10 or 20 of them floating around. One or two, maybe, someone forgot to write it down or the papers were lost.......but at least 11 of them ? To the same person ? And no record of the exchange ?
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<< <i>There is no such thing as a statute of limitations that will make something stolen suddenly yours to keep. >>
Of course there is! If the statute of limitations has expired, the object stolen cannot be confiscated by a government authority BECAUSE it was stolen. If it is contraband, that's a different story, but because the statute of limitations has expired for theft, legally, the theft never happened.
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<< <i>I think if that happens the guy that bought the first one will receive some kind of compensation. >>
Or first shot at buying the other 10.
<< <i>what if Switt had counterfeits made? >>
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
I agree with Connecticoin that it is shocking that they are parading around the confiscated coins like a circus act. It is as though they are saying, "Ha ha, you can't own these, BUT WE CAN." And in terms of the family's potential case, that might just be the best (unintended) consequence of the ludicrous submission of the ten coins to the Mint.
Personally I think there werre sleazy dealings at the Mint, the coins are tainted and were illegally obtained, and (in my purely speculative personal opinion) the heirs knew it perfectly well.
But the owner of that Fenton "Farouk" coin must be mighty angry ... that's definitely going to lead to a suit ...
Best,
Sunnywood
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That person has alot of potential money to lose here.....
IMO, the family should not be entitled to any settlement money if they lose ownership. They knew they owned contraband and they shouldn't be paid damages because their contraband was confiscated. Do drug dealers get compensated when their contraband substances, personal property, homes and cars suddenly become government property?
The coins belong to the government and the family knew that for many years. Now they want millions of dollars for keeping Daddy's little secret. What kind of justice allows family members to receive monetary rewards for hiding contraband?
I don't think the government will take the stance that the coins were stolen. Rather, I see them using law that says it's illegal to own the contraband and confiscation is the appropriate punishment for the deed. Stolen or NOT doesn't matter. Possession of the coins WAS and IS still illegal. No compensation should go to the family just because they saved 10 coins from the melting pot. Those coins should be melted and struck as One big unique Golden Buffalo coin to be auctioned to highest bidder. The money from the auction should help keep the penny alive and reduce the premiums individuals must pay to own proof versions of minted coins or commemoratives.
<< <i>What took them so long?
TD >>
I was wondering the same thing. Once they were on display at ANA, I thought the family would have started legal action the next day.
BTW, the family's attorney was involved in negotiations for the 'legal' 1933 Saint, I believe.
Geez. what if one or more is stolen whilst being paraded around in Govt possession?
<< <i>I will continue to disagree with some of you ... I think the family will never get the coins back, nor do I think they should ever get the coins back. Other great collectors of the day surrendered their specimens, but Switt held on to his clandestine and tainted booty. (Hey that sounds kinda nasty LOL.) I think the Government's policy on the 1933 double eagles was irrational, but the Government certainly does have a STRONG interest in preventing unauthorized or illegitimate coin or currency from leaving the Treasury in any manner.
I agree with Connecticoin that it is shocking that they are parading around the confiscated coins like a circus act. It is as though they are saying, "Ha ha, you can't own these, BUT WE CAN." And in terms of the family's potential case, that might just be the best (unintended) consequence of the ludicrous submission of the ten coins to the Mint.
Personally I think there werre sleazy dealings at the Mint, the coins are tainted and were illegally obtained, and (in my purely speculative personal opinion) the heirs knew it perfectly well.
But the owner of that Fenton "Farouk" coin must be mighty angry ... that's definitely going to lead to a suit ...
Best,
Sunnywood >>
You're right, Sunnywood, the owner of the Fenton coin is likely to be really angry about this. And how do we know the Fenton coin is the Farouk coin - - the Farouk coin (for which the government issued an export license) could be one of the Switt coins, for all we know.
When you say there were sleazy dealings at the Mint, I think we might be applying the ethical standards of today to a time period over 70 years ago. Philadelphia has had a lot of coin dealers through the years, and I'm sure they contacted Mint officials regularly to find out when new coins were being issued, just like current collectors contact their banks today. And since the government considered one double eagle equal to another double eagle, it probably wasn't illegal to switch one year's double eagle for another year's.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
like the 1913 liberty nickels?
<< <i>"I think the Government's policy on the 1933 double eagles was irrational, but the Government certainly does have a STRONG interest in preventing unauthorized or illegitimate coin or currency from leaving the Treasury in any manner."
like the 1913 liberty nickels? >>
You have proof these coins were minted at a government facility? You would be the first one.
It became illegal for private citizens to own gold coins, unless they clearly had a collectible value. This law was enacted during desperate times to prevent the hoarding of gold currency. Since there would be no more gold currency issued in the U.S., the Mint had melted down the 1933 run of Gold Double Eagles and converted them to gold bullion bars by 1937.
Two of the 1933 specimens were given by the Mint to the U.S. National Numismatic Collection at the Smithsonian Institute. These were the only two legal specimens to ever become part of a coin collection; however, by 1952, the Secret Service had confiscated 8 more 1933 Double Eagles! How did they leave the Mint? Why weren't they melted down?
Was the 1933 Double Eagle Switched for Another Coin? We may never know for certain how these coins left the Mint, but there is a general consensus among scholars that a Mint cashier by the name of George McCann exchanged about 20 1933's doomed for destruction and replaced them with earlier dated Double Eagles. This way, the accounting books would balance and nobody would realize that anything was amiss.
What we do know for sure is that a Philadelphia area jeweler by the name of Israel Switt came into possession of at least 19 of the coins.
Israel Switt sold at least 9 of the 1933 Double Eagles privately to collectors, one of which found its way into the collection of King Farouk of Egypt. When the Secret Service discovered that these coins had surfaced, they confiscated them all because they were considered to be stolen property of the U.S. Mint. However, King Farouk had legally exported his coin before the theft was discovered, and the Secret Service was unable to recover his specimen through diplomatic channels.
After King Farouk was deposed in 1952, his 1933 Double Eagle briefly appeared on the market, but when it became clear that U.S. authorities still wanted to confiscate it, it vanished again! More than 40 years later, British coin dealer Stephen Fenton showed up with it in New York, and the Secret Service finally seized it during a sting operation during which they purportedly negotiated to purchase the coin.
Fenton fought a several year-long legal battle in the U.S. courts over ownership of the coin, during time which it was stored in the Treasury Vaults at the World Trade Center. A mere 2 months before the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, the lawsuit was settled and the Double Eagle was moved to Fort Knox. Fenton and the U.S. Mint had come to a compromise: the coin would be sold at auction, with the proceeds split between the Fenton and the Mint.
The 1933 Double Eagle sold at auction on July 30, 2002, for $6.6 million, plus the 15% buyer's fee, which brought the total cost to the buyer to $7,590,000, plus $20 to monetize the coin and compensate the Mint for the $20 it believes it lost when the coin was thought to have been stolen. The buyer chose to remain anonymous, so once again we don't know where the Farouk specimen is, or when it might suddenly show up again. One thing is for sure: the Secret Service can't confiscate it any more!
In September of 2004, Joan Langbord, one of Israel Switt's heirs, discovered ten more specimens of the 1933 Double Eagle amongst his effects. Apparently unaware of the legal status of these coins (or perhaps just a bit too trusting of the government) she sent all ten specimens to the U.S. Mint to have them authenticated. The Secret Service declared the coins to be seized, and now Langbord is fighting the government over ownership while the specimens languish at Fort Knox.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
At that time in 1933, an exchange of double eagles did NOT require any paperwork to be filled out. It was standard practice, and perfectly legal. Any '33 Saints obtained in this way during the three week window of opportunity were not obtained illegally and are not stolen. The government cannot prove that this never happened.
Also, Treasury Secretary Woodin was known to have at least one '33 Saint in his possession. Government shenanigans or not, I seriously doubt that he obtained his illegally. There was no need. A simple exchange is all that was needed to get them.
Just my thoughts...
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
I personally was shocked that the family turned them in. Personally, if it were me, you could leave me in a room with the coins and feed me nothing but bread and water for a year, and I doubt I'd tire of them.
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<< <i>dont be surprised to see the judge in this case on a lavish hunting trip with treasury officials just before the trail runs its course >>
A hunting trip with Dick Cheney may be more appropriate.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
They are too rare for them just to be melted down, not to mention stolen from the family.
Making me want to go back and read Illegal Tender and Double Eagle again is what this thread is making do.....
I can't see these coins being melted down even if the government wins this case.....
<< <i>Its already been a couple of years since the family turned them over to the Mint. The Mint then took its sweet a$$ time to "authenticate" the 33's. I bet you anything that its going to be another 5 years before it all said and done, and by that time the owner of the "Farouk" specimen will have sold his by then.
Just my thoughts...
Later, Paul. >>
The owner of the Fenton/Farouk coin will not sell it now, not with the possibility out there that 10 more will be legalized. The $7.59 million value was based on 1 coin being available to own, not 11.
Oh, and 100!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>If someone steals something, then passes it down a few generations, even if the current generation did nothing wrong, isn't it still stolen in the first place? >>
I dunno......... Ask an American Indian about some land they owned at one time ..........
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