"But the meaning of those values can be debated, FF. The definition of freedom is constant flux. The very core of this thread revolves around what it means to be free, I would say."
While what freedom means exactly is debatable, I don't believe that whether or not the American value that our basic freedoms are worth having and protecting is under dispute. No one seriously disputes that protecting freedom for the long-term so that our children don't live under tyranny is a basic American value. To deny this, I feel, is to say that we can never generalize and describe indisputable values for any group, really.
There other indisputable American values in my book, like the ones people risk dying to benefit from as they sneak across the border, but the freedom one is probably the clearest.
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I dont think we should be debating wether or not the founding fathers of this nation believed in God, and wether or not they prayed.
This is about separation of Church and State. IGWT is a violation of the separation of the Church and State, thus, it should be removed from all currency.
The phrase "Separation of church and state," is a bogus phrase that a lot of people would have you believe is somewhere in the constitution. It exists nowhere in the constitution. The actual clause is two part; The establishment clause and free exercise clause. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The separation of church and state phrase was originally; "wall of separation between the church and the state." It was coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 in a letter he wrote to the Danbury Baptists to help quell fears that they were not going to be able to practice their religion freely. Note, that in the original context it was used to insure a religious group that the government was not going to get involved(oppress) their religious beliefs. Today it is used completely out context and almost opposite to it's intended meaning. It's primary meaning now is that religion shall not be involved with government. It's amazing how 200 years of history can distort things and how many political groups have latched on to a phrase that was in a simple letter to a church and have you believe that it has some constitutional standing.
JJ
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
<< <i>Jefferson's theory of the separation of church and state is not the only legitimate reading of the constitution. The Constitution is a political document that reflected many viewpoints -- it's not a diktat coming down from God himself. >>
Exactly! More than that, Democracy itself is perched upon the systematic inclusion of many viewpoints. The notion of a separation between church & state was sought by men like Jefferson and Madison because they knew first hand how that a government (or political party for that matter) that closely allies itself with the church, (as was the case with the Anglican Church and Royal Government,) was restrictive, intolerant and ultimately oppressive. Put another way, you cannot have the exchange of ideas required by a Democracy if the population, or even a minority sub-population so long as it justly represented by the Constitution, is governed via religious submission.
The fact is, that the motto "In God We Trust" serves to ally the United States Government with monotheists at the exclusion of polytheists and atheists - unless one believes that many Hindus, Buddhists or others who do not believe in a God are fundamentally less American than those that do, I do not see how one could defend its presence on our coinage.
<< <i>The phrase "Separation of church and state," is a bogus phrase that a lot of people would have you believe is somewhere in the constitution. It exists nowhere in the constitution. The actual clause is two part; The establishment clause and free exercise clause. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The separation of church and state phrase was originally; "wall of separation between the church and the state." It was coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 in a letter he wrote to the Danbury Baptists to help quell fears that they were not going to be able to practice their religion freely. Note, that in the original context it was used to insure a religious group that the government was not going to get involved(oppress) their religious beliefs. Today it is used completely out context and almost opposite to it's intended meaning. It's primary meaning now is that religion shall not be involved with government. It's amazing how 200 years of history can distort things and how many political groups have latched on to a phrase that was in a simple letter to a church and have you believe that it has some constitutional standing. >>
The Supreme Court among others have interpreted the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to mean that there should exist a separation of church and state - as such, its legitimacy as guiding tenant of American Democracy cannot be merely dismissed.
<< <i><< The motto should remain. >> Care to provide substantiation for your comment? >>
I just saw your comment a couple of minutes ago. This is just my point of view....
As a Catholic, I would like to see our coins and currency keep it. It has appeared on our nations coinage since 1864, starting with the Two-Cent piece.
In 1957, the motto was permanently adopted for use on United States currency.The motto In God We Trust was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the American Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout Christians throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize God on United States coins.
I believe the motto is a part of the history of our coinage and the history of our country. It should be preserved, not stripped away, like it never existed!
<< <i>I miss the OF. To keep this thread coin related, here is a pic of the only coin I own that predates the 1864 adoption of the motto 'In God We Trust.'
>>
I know alot of people love uncirculated coins (myself included), but there is something about a coin like this that is really interesting. Imagine the amount of purchases it made. It was actually used for what it was intended instead of being squirled away.
Nice coin!!
JJ
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
Although I posted about my displeasure with people mis-using the term "Separation of church and state", I could care less what is on our modern coins, because they all SUCK!! For all I care they could put mickey mouse and pluto on the coin as long as at the end of the day a buck would still get me a soda from the soda machine.
JJ
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
<< <i>I know alot of people love uncirculated coins (myself included), but there is something about a coin like this that is really interesting. Imagine the amount of purchases it made. It was actually used for what it was intended instead of being squirled away. >>
Right on! It is funny you should say that - I myself collect uncirculated coins all but exclusively, and 20th centruy ones at that! When I saw this coin though, something just compelled me...
As an artist, a big part of a coin for me is its design - in the case of my 1834 Half Eagle, I enjoy it as more of an abstract work. Glad you enjoyed it too.
<< <i> As a Catholic, I would like to see our coins and currency keep it. >>
If the motto were "In Allah We Trust," would you, as a Catholic, still want the motto to remain?
<< <i>It has appeared on our nations coinage since 1864, starting with the Two-Cent piece. >>
Is there any significance in it NOT appearing until more than 70 years after the first strikings in Philadelphia?
<< <i>In 1957, the motto was permanently adopted for use on United States currency.The motto In God We Trust was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the American Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout Christians throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize God on United States coins. >>
I agree with those who say there isn't simple "separation of church and state" in the Constitution. But, the Constitution does plainly say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." If you're going to argue that Christians wanted to recognize their god on coinage, are you not arguing that they wanted to endorse, thereby establish, an aspect of their religion on our coinage?
<< <i>I believe the motto is a part of the history of our coinage and the history of our country. It should be preserved, not stripped away, like it never existed! >>
History is all well and good. But, I believe you're missing the bigger picture. Your argument is based on increasing religious sentiment among some Americans, and for that reason, the motto should stay. Just because people changed their religious views does not change the fact that what they did was add THEIR religion to government. If something done was wrong then, even if popular, that doesn't mean it should simply remain.
Think about these scenarios:
-Hindus become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Vishnu We Trust" -Jews become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In HaShem We Trust" -Muslims become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Allah We Trust" -Satanists become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Satin We Trust"
These, though admittedly unlikely, would all represent swings in the religious sentiment of the United States people. According to your argument, you have no problem at all with these mottoes becoming imprinted on billions of coins and bills. Do you honestly believe that? If you would have the slightest reservation about putting any of these on America's money, then to say the current "In God We Trust" should remain is purely hypocritical. Many things change when the majority switches.
And as an aside, what about mis-strikes? I've seen a filled die piece that read "In God We Rust." That seems more like a desecration of God's name to me than anything else.
I have read many, but not all of the responses. It's not an issue about which god you believe in, or don't believe in.
The founders of this country did not want the hierarchy of any church defining the laws of the people (as in England at the time), nor did they
want to suppress the open practice of any religion, as many in this country attempt to do now. That is the objective
of "Separation of State and Church".
Does the following have any meaning to those who attempt to surmise exactly what the founding fathers wanted?:
"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
It was signed by Thomas Jefferson and many others. There was no definition of God, only an acceptance of a creator.
If the belief/acceptance of a god so offends you, I suggest you get a life of your own instead of trying to belittle another's faith.
By the way, I hate organized religions of any faith, but it doesn't cause me to to be offended by the motto "IN GOD WE TRUST"!
<< <i>...serves to ally the United States Government with monotheists at the exclusion of polytheists and atheists - unless one believes that many Hindus, Buddhists or others who do not believe in a ... are fundamentally less American than those that do, I do not see how one could defend its presence on our coinage. >>
There are few text elements on our coins. The name of the country, the denomination and the date naturally go on. E Pluribus Unum is the traditional and undeniable expression of the unity that fundamentally binds us. Liberty is our ideal, beyond all others. None of that should be sacrificed for something else. The IGWT motto does not express who we are as a nation. Some people might want it to be so, but it is not. There is not a unified trust in a deity, especially a particular one, that we should be announcing to the world and reminding each other of on a reglar basis through our money. It's not about majority sentiment, but common sense. IGWT is not nor ever was the embodiment of the American ideal. And there is no taboo in removing it. We won't degrade into the USSR.
<< <i>I believe the motto is a part of the history of our coinage and the history of our country. It should be preserved, not stripped away, like it never existed! >>
How about we put Mind Your Business on our coins for a while instead?
Slavery was also included in the beginning history of our country. It has also been stripped away. I don't think you will get many people agreeing that it should come back because 'we always had it'. IgWT is archaic. If you read this voluminous thread, it was placed on coins in 1864 and, like our constitution and laws, that decision should be reviewed from time to time and revised as necessary. I say give it the ax. Polytheistics and atheistics are Americans too. IgWT makes them feel that they have the 'wrong' views. Many of us here see that. Once you realize that your supernatural being is just as good as their supernatural being, you realize why they can dismiss your choice, just as you dismiss their choice.
<< <i> Do most forum members understand the meaning of "In G-d We Trust?"
I know I do. >>
Please explain in the context of money. >>
That is an easy one...that we are to put our trust in G-D first , then money! >>
Then explain why that idea should be promoted by our government. It is perfectly fine to expect that from a preacher, rabbi, or other cleric, but the US Mint shouldn't be delivering that sermon.
If the motto were "In Allah We Trust," would you, as a Catholic, still want the motto to remain?
Think about these scenarios:
-Hindus become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Vishnu We Trust" -Jews become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In HaShem We Trust" -Muslims become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Allah We Trust" -Satanists become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Satin We Trust"
These, though admittedly unlikely, would all represent swings in the religious sentiment of the United States people. According to your argument, you have no problem at all with these mottoes becoming imprinted on billions of coins and bills. Do you honestly believe that? If you would have the slightest reservation about putting any of these on America's money, then to say the current "In God We Trust" should remain is purely hypocritical.
>>
First, I doubt we would be having a conversation like this in a country that had "In Allah We Trust" on its currency. Or a lot of other places.
Second, if the devil worshipers put "In Satin We Trust" on the currency, that's fine with me because I prefer flannel anyway
Third, if I lived in a country that had a huge majority of people belonging to another religion, I'd be happy that they had the foresight and civility to allow me to practice my own religion freely -- which is the whole point of the First Amendment. No matter what religion you are a member of -- or no religion -- you cannot argue with a straight face that IN GOD WE TRUST impinges on your ability to practice whatever religion you choose. That's the purpose of the first amendment, and that's what you're losing sight of.
The courts haven't struck this down in 140 years, so I don't think you're on very solid constitutional ground.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i>The courts haven't struck this down in 140 years, so I don't think you're on very solid constitutional ground. >>
If my memory serves, the Supreme Court held that IGWT is purely ceremonial (like "so help me God" in the presidential oath of office). I'd have to agree that it's hard to see IGWT as impinging on anyone's rights. The whole issue is only of interest on a coin board. If IGWT disappeared from our coins tomorrow, to be replaced by "United We Stand", I'd be willing to bet that 99.99% of people wouldn't notice.
If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.
When you see that "In God We Trust" was made mandatory on currency and coins only in 1956, the same time that the national motto "E Pluribus Unum" was changed to "In God We Trust", AND "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance, it's obvious that communist-baiting, and not true religious sentiment was the driving force.
It should definitely remain. The left wing nut jobs who inisist on having everything their way which is religiously antiseptic have brought this up repeatedly and have been shot down repeatedly. Actually, they should just be shot, and we'd all be rid of them forever and could move on. These are the same loons that go around preaching about tollerance and acceptance, blah, blah, blah, then they turn and start making exceptions to fit their cause. Bunk!
<< <i>It should definitely remain. The left wing nut jobs who inisist on having everything their way which is religiously antiseptic have brought this up repeatedly and have been shot down repeatedly. Actually, they should just be shot, and we'd all be rid of them forever and could move on. These are the same loons that go around preaching about tollerance and acceptance, blah, blah, blah, then they turn and start making exceptions to fit their cause. Bunk! >>
So you actually think I should be shot for my views?
I am one of those who keeps his religion close to himself and feels no need to preach. Remember in Woodward's interview with Bush he was asked had he talked to his father or his father's advisors about invading Iraq and he replied he consorted with a higher authority. He put his trust in his view of what God told him. Enough said, except look at all of daddy's advisors that he is now calling on.
I agree with Andy, doesn't matter if its on the coin.
<< <i> Do most forum members understand the meaning of "In G-d We Trust?"
I know I do. >>
Please explain in the context of money. >>
That is an easy one...that we are to put our trust in G-D first , then money! >>
Then explain why that idea should be promoted by our government. It is perfectly fine to expect that from a preacher, rabbi, or other cleric, but the US Mint shouldn't be delivering that sermon. >>
Actually I think it should be in remembrance of Abraham Lincoln.
Since it was under his administration that the motto appeared on coins it has huge historical significance. No time like then was our nation tested.
He was a man of GOD who prayed and you can see it in his speeches. Because of him, clearly our 'government' remains our 'government'.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Here is a thought: In the Good Book ( both Old and New) there are ample statements about God and Money. If your not sure what it says I suggest you read them.
I think having 'In God We Trust' on money is, in a sense, a very positive oxymoron because it gives everyone the chance to pause and reflect who their GOD is.
For some its money, for others its a real GOD.
So when we look at a coin or currency that has this slogan, well, we can be reminded and choose can't we?
I think for everyone that is a healthy thing to reflect and choose.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Uh-oh -- the poll just went poof. Looks like the grown-ups have arrived... >>
Aww. I liked my post in that thread, some actual unpublished historical research instead of just tossing around opinions. Regarding opinions, Dad said it best: everyone has one and the only one that matters is your own.
Did anyone capture my post on the history of IGWT's addition to coins and paper?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
"But the meaning of those values can be debated, FF. The definition of freedom is constant flux. The very core of this thread revolves around what it means to be free, I would say."
While what freedom means exactly is debatable, I don't believe that whether or not the American value that our basic freedoms are worth having and protecting is under dispute. No one seriously disputes that protecting freedom for the long-term so that our children don't live under tyranny is a basic American value. To deny this, I feel, is to say that we can never generalize and describe indisputable values for any group, really.
There other indisputable American values in my book, like the ones people risk dying to benefit from as they sneak across the border, but the freedom one is probably the clearest.
<< <i> Do most forum members understand the meaning of "In God We Trust?"
I know I do. >>
Please explain in the context of money.
This is about separation of Church and State. IGWT is a violation of the separation of the Church and State, thus, it should be removed from all currency.
JJ
<< <i>The motto should remain. >>
Care to provide substantiation for your comment?
<< <i>Jefferson's theory of the separation of church and state is not the only legitimate reading of the constitution. The Constitution is a political document that reflected many viewpoints -- it's not a diktat coming down from God himself. >>
Exactly! More than that, Democracy itself is perched upon the systematic inclusion of many viewpoints. The notion of a separation between church & state was sought by men like Jefferson and Madison because they knew first hand how that a government (or political party for that matter) that closely allies itself with the church, (as was the case with the Anglican Church and Royal Government,) was restrictive, intolerant and ultimately oppressive. Put another way, you cannot have the exchange of ideas required by a Democracy if the population, or even a minority sub-population so long as it justly represented by the Constitution, is governed via religious submission.
The fact is, that the motto "In God We Trust" serves to ally the United States Government with monotheists at the exclusion of polytheists and atheists - unless one believes that many Hindus, Buddhists or others who do not believe in a God are fundamentally less American than those that do, I do not see how one could defend its presence on our coinage.
>>>My Collection
<< <i>The phrase "Separation of church and state," is a bogus phrase that a lot of people would have you believe is somewhere in the constitution. It exists nowhere in the constitution. The actual clause is two part; The establishment clause and free exercise clause. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The separation of church and state phrase was originally; "wall of separation between the church and the state." It was coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 in a letter he wrote to the Danbury Baptists to help quell fears that they were not going to be able to practice their religion freely. Note, that in the original context it was used to insure a religious group that the government was not going to get involved(oppress) their religious beliefs. Today it is used completely out context and almost opposite to it's intended meaning. It's primary meaning now is that religion shall not be involved with government. It's amazing how 200 years of history can distort things and how many political groups have latched on to a phrase that was in a simple letter to a church and have you believe that it has some constitutional standing. >>
The Supreme Court among others have interpreted the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to mean that there should exist a separation of church and state - as such, its legitimacy as guiding tenant of American Democracy cannot be merely dismissed.
>>>My Collection
Lots of people here who never post much when coins are the basis of the thread...but put a topic like this one and they come from all directions.
I have no comment on this topic other than good luck discussing a heated subject.
It's a win/lose/win/lose tug-o-war at best.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
>>>My Collection
<< <i><< The motto should remain. >>
Care to provide substantiation for your comment? >>
I just saw your comment a couple of minutes ago. This is just my point of view....
As a Catholic, I would like to see our coins and currency keep it. It has appeared on our nations coinage since 1864, starting with the Two-Cent piece.
In 1957, the motto was permanently adopted for use on United States currency.The motto In God We Trust was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the American Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout Christians throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize God on United States coins.
I believe the motto is a part of the history of our coinage and the history of our country. It should be preserved, not stripped away, like it never existed!
<< <i>I miss the OF. To keep this thread coin related, here is a pic of the only coin I own that predates the 1864 adoption of the motto 'In God We Trust.'
I know alot of people love uncirculated coins (myself included), but there is something about a coin like this that is really interesting. Imagine the amount of purchases it made. It was actually used for what it was intended instead of being squirled away.
Nice coin!!
JJ
JJ
<< <i>I know alot of people love uncirculated coins (myself included), but there is something about a coin like this that is really interesting. Imagine the amount of purchases it made. It was actually used for what it was intended instead of being squirled away. >>
Right on! It is funny you should say that - I myself collect uncirculated coins all but exclusively, and 20th centruy ones at that! When I saw this coin though, something just compelled me...
As an artist, a big part of a coin for me is its design - in the case of my 1834 Half Eagle, I enjoy it as more of an abstract work. Glad you enjoyed it too.
>>>My Collection
<< <i>
As a Catholic, I would like to see our coins and currency keep it. >>
If the motto were "In Allah We Trust," would you, as a Catholic, still want the motto to remain?
<< <i>It has appeared on our nations coinage since 1864, starting with the Two-Cent piece. >>
Is there any significance in it NOT appearing until more than 70 years after the first strikings in Philadelphia?
<< <i>In 1957, the motto was permanently adopted for use on United States currency.The motto In God We Trust was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the American Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout Christians throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize God on United States coins. >>
I agree with those who say there isn't simple "separation of church and state" in the Constitution. But, the Constitution does plainly say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." If you're going to argue that Christians wanted to recognize their god on coinage, are you not arguing that they wanted to endorse, thereby establish, an aspect of their religion on our coinage?
<< <i>I believe the motto is a part of the history of our coinage and the history of our country. It should be preserved, not stripped away, like it never existed! >>
History is all well and good. But, I believe you're missing the bigger picture. Your argument is based on increasing religious sentiment among some Americans, and for that reason, the motto should stay. Just because people changed their religious views does not change the fact that what they did was add THEIR religion to government. If something done was wrong then, even if popular, that doesn't mean it should simply remain.
Think about these scenarios:
-Hindus become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Vishnu We Trust"
-Jews become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In HaShem We Trust"
-Muslims become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Allah We Trust"
-Satanists become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Satin We Trust"
These, though admittedly unlikely, would all represent swings in the religious sentiment of the United States people. According to your argument, you have no problem at all with these mottoes becoming imprinted on billions of coins and bills. Do you honestly believe that? If you would have the slightest reservation about putting any of these on America's money, then to say the current "In God We Trust" should remain is purely hypocritical. Many things change when the majority switches.
And as an aside, what about mis-strikes? I've seen a filled die piece that read "In God We Rust." That seems more like a desecration of God's name to me than anything else.
Jeremy
<< <i>and knowing the founding fathers were believers in a god >>
Not all of them.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
The founders of this country did not want the hierarchy of any church defining the laws of the people (as in England at the time), nor did they
want to suppress the open practice of any religion, as many in this country attempt to do now. That is the objective
of "Separation of State and Church".
Does the following have any meaning to those who attempt to surmise exactly what the founding fathers wanted?:
"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
It was signed by Thomas Jefferson and many others. There was no definition of God, only an acceptance of a creator.
If the belief/acceptance of a god so offends you, I suggest you get a life of your own instead of trying to belittle another's faith.
By the way, I hate organized religions of any faith, but it doesn't cause me to to be offended by the motto "IN GOD WE TRUST"!
Bob
Or to appease the radical Islamic fundamental extremist terroristas, perhaps .... no way, forget that one.
<< <i>...serves to ally the United States Government with monotheists at the exclusion of polytheists and atheists - unless one believes that many Hindus, Buddhists or others who do not believe in a ... are fundamentally less American than those that do, I do not see how one could defend its presence on our coinage. >>
There are few text elements on our coins. The name of the country, the denomination and the date naturally go on. E Pluribus Unum is the traditional and undeniable expression of the unity that fundamentally binds us. Liberty is our ideal, beyond all others. None of that should be sacrificed for something else. The IGWT motto does not express who we are as a nation. Some people might want it to be so, but it is not. There is not a unified trust in a deity, especially a particular one, that we should be announcing to the world and reminding each other of on a reglar basis through our money. It's not about majority sentiment, but common sense. IGWT is not nor ever was the embodiment of the American ideal. And there is no taboo in removing it. We won't degrade into the USSR.
<< <i>I believe the motto is a part of the history of our coinage and the history of our country. It should be preserved, not stripped away, like it never existed! >>
How about we put Mind Your Business on our coins for a while instead?
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
and if we want to define ourselves as a nation the motto should be :
"Divided" , or how about "Oil and Water" ?
or better still : "Sinners on one side, Saints on the other"
PETA: The guys who make sure it ain't " BEEF it's what's for dinner !
Or: IDIOTS, the other white meat !
Land of the free , home of the GAY MARRIAGE ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I like 'Mind your business' ! That's a good motto!
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
<< <i>Coxe,
I like 'Mind your business' ! That's a good motto! >>
Gotta give Ben Franklin credit for it.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Slavery was also included in the beginning history of our country. It has also been stripped away. I don't think you will get many people agreeing that it should come back because 'we always had it'. IgWT is archaic. If you read this voluminous thread, it was placed on coins in 1864 and, like our constitution and laws, that decision should be reviewed from time to time and revised as necessary. I say give it the ax.
Polytheistics and atheistics are Americans too. IgWT makes them feel that they have the 'wrong' views. Many of us here see that. Once you realize that your supernatural being is just as good as their supernatural being, you realize why they can dismiss your choice, just as you dismiss their choice.
fastrudy
JJ- Don't you mean Mickey Mouse and Pluto?
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
<< <i>
<< <i> Do most forum members understand the meaning of "In God We Trust?"
I know I do. >>
Please explain in the context of money. >>
That is an easy one...that we are to put our trust in GOD first , then money!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> Do most forum members understand the meaning of "In G-d We Trust?"
I know I do. >>
Please explain in the context of money. >>
That is an easy one...that we are to put our trust in G-D first , then money! >>
Then explain why that idea should be promoted by our government. It is perfectly fine to expect that from a preacher, rabbi, or other cleric, but the US Mint shouldn't be delivering that sermon.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>
<< <i> >>
If the motto were "In Allah We Trust," would you, as a Catholic, still want the motto to remain?
Think about these scenarios:
-Hindus become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Vishnu We Trust"
-Jews become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In HaShem We Trust"
-Muslims become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Allah We Trust"
-Satanists become a majority in the country and the motto becomes "In Satin We Trust"
These, though admittedly unlikely, would all represent swings in the religious sentiment of the United States people. According to your argument, you have no problem at all with these mottoes becoming imprinted on billions of coins and bills. Do you honestly believe that? If you would have the slightest reservation about putting any of these on America's money, then to say the current "In God We Trust" should remain is purely hypocritical.
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First, I doubt we would be having a conversation like this in a country that had "In Allah We Trust" on its currency. Or a lot of other places.
Second, if the devil worshipers put "In Satin We Trust" on the currency, that's fine with me because I prefer flannel anyway
Third, if I lived in a country that had a huge majority of people belonging to another religion, I'd be happy that they had the foresight and civility to allow me to practice my own religion freely -- which is the whole point of the First Amendment. No matter what religion you are a member of -- or no religion -- you cannot argue with a straight face that IN GOD WE TRUST impinges on your ability to practice whatever religion you choose. That's the purpose of the first amendment, and that's what you're losing sight of.
The courts haven't struck this down in 140 years, so I don't think you're on very solid constitutional ground.
<< <i>The courts haven't struck this down in 140 years, so I don't think you're on very solid constitutional ground. >>
If my memory serves, the Supreme Court held that IGWT is purely ceremonial (like "so help me God" in the presidential oath of office). I'd have to agree that it's hard to see IGWT as impinging on anyone's rights. The whole issue is only of interest on a coin board. If IGWT disappeared from our coins tomorrow, to be replaced by "United We Stand", I'd be willing to bet that 99.99% of people wouldn't notice.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
http://restorethepledge.org/
So Rudy, we see that "some" actually means "very few".
CoinJP, well done!
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>It should definitely remain. The left wing nut jobs who inisist on having everything their way which is religiously antiseptic have brought this up repeatedly and have been shot down repeatedly. Actually, they should just be shot, and we'd all be rid of them forever and could move on. These are the same loons that go around preaching about tollerance and acceptance, blah, blah, blah, then they turn and start making exceptions to fit their cause. Bunk! >>
So you actually think I should be shot for my views?
>>>My Collection
<< <i>Well, the poll says a huge majority wants the motto to stay.
So Rudy, we see that "some" actually means "very few".
CoinJP, well done! >>
If majority and Constitutional were one in the same, we would still have segregated schools in Alabama.
>>>My Collection
I voted 'No difference to me'.
56% is not a "huge majority" IMHO
Likewise, 25% is not "very few" IMHO
Thank you for your input.
For the record, silencing your opponents is not the same as convincing them. The most convincing arguements were the one's that made everybody think.
Hey 1956half, you don't like left wing nut jobs, yet your solution of shooting those who disagree sounds like JOE STALIN! Look in the mirror, man.
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
I agree with Andy, doesn't matter if its on the coin.
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<< <i> Do most forum members understand the meaning of "In G-d We Trust?"
I know I do. >>
Please explain in the context of money. >>
That is an easy one...that we are to put our trust in G-D first , then money! >>
Then explain why that idea should be promoted by our government. It is perfectly fine to expect that from a preacher, rabbi, or other cleric, but the US Mint shouldn't be delivering that sermon. >>
Actually I think it should be in remembrance of Abraham Lincoln.
Since it was under his administration that the motto appeared on coins it has huge historical significance. No time like then was our nation tested.
He was a man of GOD who prayed and you can see it in his speeches. Because of him, clearly our 'government' remains our 'government'.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I think having 'In God We Trust' on money is, in a sense, a very positive oxymoron because it gives everyone the chance to pause and reflect who their GOD is.
For some its money, for others its a real GOD.
So when we look at a coin or currency that has this slogan, well, we can be reminded and choose can't we?
I think for everyone that is a healthy thing to reflect and choose.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>How about we put Mind Your Business on our coins for a while instead? >>
I'd love to have that on our coinage but in addition to In God We Trust, not as a substitute.
The founding fathers were religious men. The Declaration of Independence had references to a Creator.
The Constitution does not have any references to a God, and it the founding document of this Republic.
The US Supreme Court interpretes the Constitution as saying that there should be a SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
In God We Trust is an infringment on Separation of Church and State, and should be removed.
Enough said.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Uh-oh -- the poll just went poof. Looks like the grown-ups have arrived... >>
Aww. I liked my post in that thread, some actual unpublished historical research instead of just tossing around opinions. Regarding opinions, Dad said it best: everyone has one and the only one that matters is your own.
Did anyone capture my post on the history of IGWT's addition to coins and paper?
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
<< <i>I prefer "We Trust Each Other" >>
You don't spend much time on eBay, do you?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire