Good for you, but you need to be quiet so nobody else knows you're praying. You can't spread your beliefs in a public place and that is part of the reason why our society seems to get worse every year.
You need to be quiet? I think Airplanenut is right. It is not illegal to pray in school. And what do you mean when you say you are not allowed to spread your belief in a public place?
Ugh, this is not coin-related...
2ndR, your suggestion seems so, so, so alternative.
I'm offended by the E PLURIBUS UNUM. Why should I have to be "one" with all of you other people? That offends my sense of individuality.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i>Some Americans believe that the inclusion of the motto on our coins is an intrusion into their right not to believe in a god. That is why, as a good American, I can see their point of view >>
Sorry Rudy, agreeing with "some" does not make you a good American. "Some" Islamic Americans may agree with Iran's insane president that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. Agreeing with that "some" doesn't make you a good American.
Agreeing with "some" has never been the definition of being a good American, and I've never seen someone claim that until now.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Thank you Amanda, for correcting me about IGWT not being on the early coins. Thank you Airplanenut for clarifying my use of small 'g' for an unspecified deity.
<< <i>This is another subject that just ticks me off. IN GOD WE TRUST should remain on our coinage. The atheists have won more than the believers. Just because non-believers don't want it doesn't mean the rest of us don't have rights. They have kicked God out of our schools, they have kicked God out of our public places, our children are not allowed to pray in school. And I'll bet when it comes down and these so called atheists are about to die, I'll bet many of them find God then. >>
Theologically, it's not possible to "kick God out" of anywhere. The Christian god is omnipresent. For practical purposes, God hasn't been kicked out of schools. Any child can pray during recess, or before a test, or whatever. What's been ruled unconstitutional is organized prayer on public school grounds, because that's a state endorsement of religion. As far as public places go, I'm not sure what you mean. Public places are open forums, and people can engage in any kind of speech they like. Things like crosses and other religious symbols aren't allowed on public property because that's, again, a state endorsement (unless all symbols are given equal time).
None of this is to say that IGWT should necessarily come off the coins. It's mostly ceremonial and meaningless. I'm fairly certain that an omnipotent, omniscient god wouldn't give a rat's ass either way. He's got bigger fish to fry.
As far as what happens when you die:
Here's an impromptu poll: Raise your hand if you've ever been dead (by which I mean stone-cold dead, not this "near death" stuff. "Near death" is like "near pregnancy".)
If your hand's not up, how can you claim to know anything about it? It's really the kind of thing where there's no substitute for first-hand knowledge.
If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.
<< <i>OK, let's just keep liberty and throw out the rest. How about that? >>
I'm sure you'll find some people in this country who want to dump the LIBERTY, too.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
"I contend that we are both atheists." Do you believe in Zeus? Thor? Ra? Jupiter? We are equally atheistic with regards to these deities. "I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." (Stephen Roberts)
Love that quote!
24HourForums.com - load images, create albums, place ads, talk coins, enjoy the community.
Why not limit coin legends to "United States of America," "Liberty," and the denomination? That way we could stay true to an undisputable core American value and have more room for inspirational designs. We can leave the questions of religion and individuality to individuals enjoying their liberty as Americans.
Second republic! Be careful, Latin words might be misconstrued to be the work of some nutzo illegal immigration group wanting to advance their anti-fill-in-the-blank agenda!!
How bout "In recycled plastic we trust". I'm thinking that the future will consist of plastic paychecks, similar to a debit card, that you swipe everywhere. There will be a point of sale in every home, fleamarket, coin show, you name it. Then the Machine can track your every purchase, and save a tremendous amount of money, not having to strike coins, or print currency.
<< <i>Why not limit coin legends to "United States of America," "Liberty," and the denomination? That way we could stay true to an undisputable core American value and have more room for inspirational designs. We can leave the questions of religion and individuality to individuals enjoying their liberty as Americans. >>
Sumnom, do you have a bottle of white-out I can borrow? I can't get this darn reference to "Nature's God" out of my Declaration of Independence.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i>Some Americans believe that the inclusion of the motto on our coins is an intrusion into their right not to believe in a god. That is why, as a good American, I can see their point of view >>
Sorry Rudy, agreeing with "some" does not make you a good American. "Some" Islamic Americans may agree with Iran's insane president that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. Agreeing with that "some" doesn't make you a good American.
Agreeing with "some" has never been the definition of being a good American, and I've never seen someone claim that until now. >>
Your selective edit was weak, sumnon. Here you go.
Want to give it another go, Rudy? Now, why does it make you a good American?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Shall we just agree that this thread cannot stay on-topic? >>
I can agree with that. This is only tangentially a coin question.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
2ndR, you may notice that I said, "an undisputable American value." My intent there was to indicate that everyone can agree that Liberty is an American value while there is disagreement as to the place of religious belief as a core American value. Surely, you will agree that there is disagreement?
What was the name of that movie where the question was asked " who are you gonna call"? Well, when its your time to call who are you gonna call? We are all gonna face that time at sometime. Yes sir.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
As long as we talk about the motto, it's coin related. It is difficult, however, to talk about the motto without getting into the other areas this thread is heading.
<< <i>From what I have read about Thomas Jefferson, he was an ardent suppourter of separation of church and state, among other things, and he might not have liked to see it on there. >>
On Jefferson's tomb stone, he wanted three accomplishments listed: 1) Author of the Declaration of Independence, 2.) Author of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom, and 3.) Father of the Universty of Virginia.
The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom is still part of modern Virginia's constitution, has been copied by other states, and above all served as the basis for the Religion Clauses in the Constitution's Bill of Rights. It reads in part:
<< <i>Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
- Thomas Jefferson >>
The fact that Jefferson wanted his Fathership of the Universty of Virginia listed is also relevant to this topic, in that up until its founding all institutions of higher learning in America were closely affiliated with various churches.
Especially in light of the fact that Jefferson would list his authorship of this measure as one of the three most noteworthy accomplishments of his life but not make any mention of his two-term Presidency IMHO renders him not just an ardent supporter of the separation of church and state, but its architect!
Personally, like Jefferson, I believe that religion has no place in Politics, but I find it is especially offensive to the legacy of Jefferson to have the motto 'In God We Trust' next to his portrait on the nickel.
*
From another perspective, there is what Teddy Roosevelt said about the subject:
"to put such a motto on coins ... is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege."
I have also read (though I cannot recall the source) that a reason he wanted it removed from coins also related to the way coins were used - for gambling, prostitution, etc.
**
In short, from a political vantage, I feel the motto 'In God We Trust' erodes the Democracy our Founding Fathers established for us, and from a religious standpoint I feel it does nothing more than restate the obvious for anyone it has meaning to; as such I strongly believe it should be removed from our coinage.
Our country's original motto "E Pluribus Unum" is much more inclusive and in fact on some level predicts the diversity that defines America today.
In fact, I believe in that motto so much, that I gave my daughter the middle name of Unum.
I agree. Agreeing with 'some Americans' does not make me a 'good American'.
I did not mean it in that way. Since some Americans rights are being intruded upon, I feel that they are justified in their quest to remove IGWT (or IgWT). Good American was meant to be a fair, just person born in (or naturalized in) America. When I see somebody's rights being ignored and they make a logical arguement, I have a tendency to judge them as correct.
No, I am not a judge or a lawyer. For your own information, I have no use for a supernatural being. Just me....everybody can have their own beliefs. Sorry that I stated my response to you awkwardly.
<< <i>2ndR, you may notice that I said, "an undisputable American value." My intent there was to indicate that everyone can agree that Liberty is an American value while there is disagreement as to the place of religious belief as a core American value. Surely, you will agree that there is disagreement? >>
There is no such thing as an undisputable American value. All values are somewhat in dispute; some are very much in dispute. Liberty is hardly in dispute in this country; the role of religion in public life is somewhat more in dispute, but not really. I doubt if 10% of Americans want IN GOD WE TRUST removed from the currency. That's not a real dispute. Anyway, the fact that it's divisive doesn't mean the pro-religious side should throw in the towel.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
Jefferson's theory of the separation of church and state is not the only legitimate reading of the constitution. The Constitution is a political document that reflected many viewpoints -- it's not a diktat coming down from God himself.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i>Do people understand that the separation of church and state meant to allow people to believe what they wanted rather than being forced into a church like the church of England. Our founding fathers were believers, unlike today where the government is trying to create a church of atheists by not allowing God to even be mentioned in public. It has actually become worse than the church of England, because they are trying to keep people from sharing their beliefs.
It must really make some of them mad that the word Christmas is being used again this year. Many shopping centers and stores tried dumping the word Christmas last year, but they were sent a message by the public.
IN GOD WE TRUST may have not always been on our coins, but dead presidents weren't on our coins either. I would rather see them dump the dead presidents than dump GOD! >>
<< <i>2nd R, you are turning out to be more postmodern than I imagined. >>
Well, I'm a skeptic and I'm not particularly religious... but I don't like change unless it meets a fairly high threshold of being "necessary."
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
I was looking at the Thomas Jefferson entry on Wikipedia. There is an interesting bibliography there for anyone interested. Do people still read books these days?
"There is no such thing as an undisputable American value."
Freedom is such a value. The value that says freedom is worth protecting and having, verses living under tyranny and dictatorships, is an undisputable American value in my book. America, and the Constitution, were born out of that value.
24HourForums.com - load images, create albums, place ads, talk coins, enjoy the community.
But the meaning of those values can be debated, FF. The definition of freedom is constant flux. The very core of this thread revolves around what it means to be free, I would say.
<< <i>"There is no such thing as an undisputable American value."
Freedom is such a value. The value that says freedom is worth protecting and having, verses living under tyranny and dictatorships, is an undisputable American value in my book. America, and the Constitution, were born out of that value. >>
I personally agree with that--as do 99% of Americans--but believe it or not there are some people who don't agree. Sad to say.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i>"There is no such thing as an undisputable American value."
Freedom is such a value. The value that says freedom is worth protecting and having, verses living under tyranny and dictatorships, is an undisputable American value in my book. America, and the Constitution, were born out of that value. >>
Further back the Puritans came over here for, well, religious freedom.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
At the moment, freedom to me means not having to (actively) watch "The Bachelor: Season Finale" with my wife. Night, y'all.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
Comments
You need to be quiet? I think Airplanenut is right. It is not illegal to pray in school. And what do you mean when you say you are not allowed to spread your belief in a public place?
Ugh, this is not coin-related...
2ndR, your suggestion seems so, so, so alternative.
Removing the motto would be a return to tradition, not a violation of it.
<< <i>Some Americans believe that the inclusion of the motto on our coins is an intrusion into their right not to believe in a god. That is why, as a good American, I can see their point of view >>
Sorry Rudy, agreeing with "some" does not make you a good American. "Some" Islamic Americans may agree with Iran's insane president that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth.
Agreeing with that "some" doesn't make you a good American.
Agreeing with "some" has never been the definition of being a good American, and I've never seen someone claim that until now.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Thank you Airplanenut for clarifying my use of small 'g' for an unspecified deity.
Thank you all for responding.
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I did not know or notice the removal of Liberty from our coinage. That bothers me.
<< <i>This is another subject that just ticks me off. IN GOD WE TRUST should remain on our coinage. The atheists have won more than the believers. Just because non-believers don't want it doesn't mean the rest of us don't have rights. They have kicked God out of our schools, they have kicked God out of our public places, our children are not allowed to pray in school. And I'll bet when it comes down and these so called atheists are about to die, I'll bet many of them find God then. >>
Theologically, it's not possible to "kick God out" of anywhere. The Christian god is omnipresent. For practical purposes, God hasn't been kicked out of schools. Any child can pray during recess, or before a test, or whatever. What's been ruled unconstitutional is organized prayer on public school grounds, because that's a state endorsement of religion. As far as public places go, I'm not sure what you mean. Public places are open forums, and people can engage in any kind of speech they like. Things like crosses and other religious symbols aren't allowed on public property because that's, again, a state endorsement (unless all symbols are given equal time).
None of this is to say that IGWT should necessarily come off the coins. It's mostly ceremonial and meaningless. I'm fairly certain that an omnipotent, omniscient god wouldn't give a rat's ass either way. He's got bigger fish to fry.
As far as what happens when you die:
Here's an impromptu poll: Raise your hand if you've ever been dead (by which I mean stone-cold dead, not this "near death" stuff. "Near death" is like "near pregnancy".)
If your hand's not up, how can you claim to know anything about it? It's really the kind of thing where there's no substitute for first-hand knowledge.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>OK, let's just keep liberty and throw out the rest. How about that? >>
I'm sure you'll find some people in this country who want to dump the LIBERTY, too.
Anyways, the motto was added to our coins in 1864, sal, o the founding fathers had little to do with it,
I am sure Lincoln gave his approval, and he prayed alot. Hooray for Lincoln!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
You still haven't seen someone claim that.
Love that quote!
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
morgans
<< <i>Why not limit coin legends to "United States of America," "Liberty," and the denomination? That way we could stay true to an undisputable core American value and have more room for inspirational designs. We can leave the questions of religion and individuality to individuals enjoying their liberty as Americans. >>
Sumnom, do you have a bottle of white-out I can borrow? I can't get this darn reference to "Nature's God" out of my Declaration of Independence.
<< <i>
<< <i>Some Americans believe that the inclusion of the motto on our coins is an intrusion into their right not to believe in a god. That is why, as a good American, I can see their point of view >>
Sorry Rudy, agreeing with "some" does not make you a good American. "Some" Islamic Americans may agree with Iran's insane president that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth.
Agreeing with that "some" doesn't make you a good American.
Agreeing with "some" has never been the definition of being a good American, and I've never seen someone claim that until now. >>
Your selective edit was weak, sumnon. Here you go.
Want to give it another go, Rudy? Now, why does it make you a good American?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Shall we just agree that this thread cannot stay on-topic? >>
I can agree with that. This is only tangentially a coin question.
<< <i>
<< <i>I KNOW you all have opinions on this one, let's hear them. >>
It's my opinion that it should remain on our coinage. >>
Same with our currency.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>From what I have read about Thomas Jefferson, he was an ardent suppourter of separation of church and state, among other things, and he might not have liked to see it on there. >>
On Jefferson's tomb stone, he wanted three accomplishments listed: 1) Author of the Declaration of Independence, 2.) Author of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom, and 3.) Father of the Universty of Virginia.
The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom is still part of modern Virginia's constitution, has been copied by other states, and above all served as the basis for the Religion Clauses in the Constitution's Bill of Rights. It reads in part:
<< <i>Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
- Thomas Jefferson >>
The fact that Jefferson wanted his Fathership of the Universty of Virginia listed is also relevant to this topic, in that up until its founding all institutions of higher learning in America were closely affiliated with various churches.
Especially in light of the fact that Jefferson would list his authorship of this measure as one of the three most noteworthy accomplishments of his life but not make any mention of his two-term Presidency IMHO renders him not just an ardent supporter of the separation of church and state, but its architect!
Personally, like Jefferson, I believe that religion has no place in Politics, but I find it is especially offensive to the legacy of Jefferson to have the motto 'In God We Trust' next to his portrait on the nickel.
*
From another perspective, there is what Teddy Roosevelt said about the subject:
"to put such a motto on coins ... is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege."
I have also read (though I cannot recall the source) that a reason he wanted it removed from coins also related to the way coins were used - for gambling, prostitution, etc.
**
In short, from a political vantage, I feel the motto 'In God We Trust' erodes the Democracy our Founding Fathers established for us, and from a religious standpoint I feel it does nothing more than restate the obvious for anyone it has meaning to; as such I strongly believe it should be removed from our coinage.
Our country's original motto "E Pluribus Unum" is much more inclusive and in fact on some level predicts the diversity that defines America today.
In fact, I believe in that motto so much, that I gave my daughter the middle name of Unum.
>>>My Collection
Could have swore that Marge from the Simpons said the same thing?
morgans
I agree. Agreeing with 'some Americans' does not make me a 'good American'.
I did not mean it in that way. Since some Americans rights are being intruded upon, I feel that they are justified in their quest to remove IGWT (or IgWT). Good American was meant to be a fair, just person born in (or naturalized in) America. When I see somebody's rights being ignored and they make a logical arguement, I have a tendency to judge them as correct.
No, I am not a judge or a lawyer. For your own information, I have no use for a supernatural being. Just me....everybody can have their own beliefs. Sorry that I stated my response to you awkwardly.
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
<< <i>2ndR, you may notice that I said, "an undisputable American value." My intent there was to indicate that everyone can agree that Liberty is an American value while there is disagreement as to the place of religious belief as a core American value. Surely, you will agree that there is disagreement? >>
There is no such thing as an undisputable American value. All values are somewhat in dispute; some are very much in dispute. Liberty is hardly in dispute in this country; the role of religion in public life is somewhat more in dispute, but not really. I doubt if 10% of Americans want IN GOD WE TRUST removed from the currency. That's not a real dispute. Anyway, the fact that it's divisive doesn't mean the pro-religious side should throw in the towel.
Jefferson's theory of the separation of church and state is not the only legitimate reading of the constitution. The Constitution is a political document that reflected many viewpoints -- it's not a diktat coming down from God himself.
Touche. I should have known better.
<< <i>Do people understand that the separation of church and state meant to allow people to believe what they wanted rather than being forced into a church like the church of England. Our founding fathers were believers, unlike today where the government is trying to create a church of atheists by not allowing God to even be mentioned in public. It has actually become worse than the church of England, because they are trying to keep people from sharing their beliefs.
It must really make some of them mad that the word Christmas is being used again this year. Many shopping centers and stores tried dumping the word Christmas last year, but they were sent a message by the public.
IN GOD WE TRUST may have not always been on our coins, but dead presidents weren't on our coins either. I would rather see them dump the dead presidents than dump GOD! >>
AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>2nd R, you are turning out to be more postmodern than I imagined. >>
Well, I'm a skeptic and I'm not particularly religious... but I don't like change unless it meets a fairly high threshold of being "necessary."
Freedom is such a value. The value that says freedom is worth protecting and having, verses living under tyranny and dictatorships, is an undisputable American value in my book. America, and the Constitution, were born out of that value.
<< <i><<What is that? A quarter? A Chucky-Cheese token?>>
Could have swore that Marge from the Simpons said the same thing?
morgans >>
She did!
<< <i>"There is no such thing as an undisputable American value."
Freedom is such a value. The value that says freedom is worth protecting and having, verses living under tyranny and dictatorships, is an undisputable American value in my book. America, and the Constitution, were born out of that value. >>
I personally agree with that--as do 99% of Americans--but believe it or not there are some people who don't agree. Sad to say.
<< <i>"There is no such thing as an undisputable American value."
Freedom is such a value. The value that says freedom is worth protecting and having, verses living under tyranny and dictatorships, is an undisputable American value in my book. America, and the Constitution, were born out of that value. >>
Further back the Puritans came over here for, well, religious freedom.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
At least for themselves.
I know I do.
This may be the fastest growing thread on this forum ever!!!!!!!!
Doubters, please respond.
<< <i>
<< <i><<What is that? A quarter? A Chucky-Cheese token?>>
Could have swore that Marge from the Simpons said the same thing?
morgans >>
She did! >>
No, she didn't! It was Bart that asked if it was a quarter. Milhouse asked if it was a Chuckie Cheese token.
Her response: "No, a sacagawea dollar. You can go to the bank and trade it in for a real dollar."
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
Thanks, Goldbully, I guess you get it!
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards