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It's time PCGS stopped body-bagging and started giving "details" grades.
291fifth
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I recently advised a friend to send his coins into a service other than PCGS because I knew a large percentage of them would come back in body-bags due to cleaning, corrosion and assorted damage. The other service slabbed all of the coins but one (it had PVC contamination.) The grading and "details" assignment was pretty much accurate and my friend didn't waste a large sum of money on coins that came back unslabbed.
"Details" grades don't bother me. The coin is what it is and will bring what it is worth. Having the coin in a major brand slab, authenticated, is a big plus when selling...especially on eBay.
PCGS can make some modification in its holder to easily distinguish the coins with "details" grades. This would also allow PCGS to really tighten its standards for what gets into its top-line holders.
"Details" grades don't bother me. The coin is what it is and will bring what it is worth. Having the coin in a major brand slab, authenticated, is a big plus when selling...especially on eBay.
PCGS can make some modification in its holder to easily distinguish the coins with "details" grades. This would also allow PCGS to really tighten its standards for what gets into its top-line holders.
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<< <i>While I agree with you, it has been discussed many times and PCGS said their member dealers do not want such a thing. >>
PCGS needs to make moves that increase submissions. The number of problem-free classic coins that haven't been slabbed is shrinking. There are huge numbers of "details" coins out there that people would love to have in a PCGS holder.
<< <i>Having the coin in a major brand slab, authenticated, is a big plus when selling...especially on eBay. >>
so use a competitor. pcgs is nothing special.
K S
<< <i>This won't happen. PCGS does not want to associate it's name with problem coins and I don't blame them. As you said, there's already another service which will grade these, actually I can think of several, which should be enough for what little market does exist for such coins. >>
The market for "details" coins is not little. The low-end of the coin market is alive and well. The increasing prices for "problem-free" coins has forced more collectors of modest means to accept "details" coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>Having the coin in a major brand slab, authenticated, is a big plus when selling...especially on eBay. >>
so use a competitor. pcgs is nothing special.
K S >>
PCGS coins bring more money. It is just a fact of life in the coin marketplace.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Having the coin in a major brand slab, authenticated, is a big plus when selling...especially on eBay. >>
so use a competitor. pcgs is nothing special.
K S >>
PCGS coins bring more money. It is just a fact of life in the coin marketplace. >>
And part of that is because they do not grade problem coins.
<< <i>It's time PCGS stopped body-bagging and started giving "details" grades. >>
Totally disagree.
<< <i>
<< <i>PCGS coins bring more money. It is just a fact of life in the coin marketplace. >>
And part of that is because they do not grade problem coins. >>
Makes sense to me.
<< <i>
<< <i>Having the coin in a major brand slab, authenticated, is a big plus when selling...especially on eBay. >>
so use a competitor. pcgs is nothing special.
K S >>
I think what Karl means is "Why is it so damn important for you to slab the coins anyway, what's wrong with keeping them raw?"
Let me explain.
The agree part is simple....authenticate only without grade, but that creates another issue, value, which is the disagreement portion.
Disagree, as it is almost impossible for a grader to accurately net grade a coin. There are just way too many variables with problem coins to be able to accurately net grade them. How much cleaning is a good example. Some coins are so lightly cleaned you really have to look at them several times, while other look cleaned from 3 feet away. How do I value, say a lightly cleaned XF coin vs a harshly cleaned XF coin. Then you get into repaired coins, rim dings and the other myriads of problems coins can have. No way PCGS can get it all right, and I'm not sure I would want them to attempt to do that either, as the net grade really begins the value equation.
Put simply, I'd be in favor of an authentication slab (which would look quite different from a normal slab), but not a net grade slab from PCGS.
Just one guys opinion!
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<< <i>
<< <i>This won't happen. PCGS does not want to associate it's name with problem coins and I don't blame them. As you said, there's already another service which will grade these, actually I can think of several, which should be enough for what little market does exist for such coins. >>
The market for "details" coins is not little. The low-end of the coin market is alive and well. The increasing prices for "problem-free" coins has forced more collectors of modest means to accept "details" coins. >>
I saw Ron's answer a few weeks ago in the Q&A, and while I can see his point, I would still like to see them offer this. If ANACS is in as much trouble as the recent threads seem to think, where else can we send these and still feel comfortable?
PCGS could use a completely different slab, label, or something to avoid any confusion that it was not one of their problem-free coins. Maybe they could buy ANACS and use that as their problem division or something (and maybe even tokens and SCD's
If the amount of net-graded or other ANACS problem slabs on eBay is any example, I can't see how it would lose money. Does ANACS or any of the others have a pop report broken out by net-graded or problem coins?
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Having the coin in a major brand slab, authenticated, is a big plus when selling...especially on eBay. >>
so use a competitor. pcgs is nothing special.
K S >>
I think what Karl means is "Why is it so damn important for you to slab the coins anyway, what's wrong with keeping them raw?"
If you plan to market the coins on eBay, having them in a major brand slab will increase realizations. Raw coins on eBay are being discounted, even if nice, because of the presence of too many scammers who fail to disclose problems or just plain overgrade.
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<< <i>Do you think that by grading problem coins it will cause pcgs to become less popular? >>
No, as long as the details coins are in holders that are visually "different." This isn't a new idea.
<< <i>Being a member dealer, I agree and disagree with slabbing problem coins.
Let me explain.
The agree part is simple....authenticate only without grade, but that creates another issue, value, which is the disagreement portion.
Disagree, as it is almost impossible for a grader to accurately net grade a coin. There are just way too many variables with problem coins to be able to accurately net grade them. How much cleaning is a good example. Some coins are so lightly cleaned you really have to look at them several times, while other look cleaned from 3 feet away. How do I value, say a lightly cleaned XF coin vs a harshly cleaned XF coin. Then you get into repaired coins, rim dings and the other myriads of problems coins can have. No way PCGS can get it all right, and I'm not sure I would want them to attempt to do that either, as the net grade really begins the value equation.
Put simply, I'd be in favor of an authentication slab (which would look quite different from a normal slab), but not a net grade slab from PCGS.
Just one guys opinion! >>
"Details" grades are not net grades. The coins is described as "AU50 details, harshly cleaned," or "VF20 details, corroded." It is up to the buyer to determine his own "net" grade and establish an amount he is willing to pay.
The first (and so far, only) coin I sent into PCGS got bagged for cleaning. And let me tell you, the feeling really sucked. No one wants to see their prized coin coming back in a simple flip. But it taught me a valuable lesson about looking for signs of cleaning. You can bet that I'll be more careful the next time I submit something. Sometimes you look at a coin through the prism of what you paid for it, instead of what the market value of the coin is. They're not always the same thing.
Having said all that, one change I would like to see is a partial refund for bagged coins. If a grader just glances at a coin and marks it a problem coin, that's not as much work as actually assessing a grade. And a flip certainly isn't the same kind of receptacle a bona fide slab is. When I got my coin back, I felt cheated less because it was rejected than because I didn't get anything but a flip for my submission fee. I had submitted the coin expecting:
1) A grade
2) A holder
3) A TrueView photo
I can understand not getting a slab, if those are reserved for problem-free coins, but I was disappointed no one took the time to image the coin, let alone that no one had bothered to hazard a grade.
What I'd really like to see is for bagged coins to come back with a grade and a photo. That way, bagged coins wouldn't get the prestige of the holder, but you'd at least feel like you didn't pay up to $50 just for the privilege of getting bent over.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>This won't happen. PCGS does not want to associate it's name with problem coins and I don't blame them. As you said, there's already another service which will grade these, actually I can think of several, which should be enough for what little market does exist for such coins. >>
Since I collect early coins that hard to find in ANY condition, I can tell you that the market is not small.
I believe they still should photo the coin, if you pay for that service...problem or not.
If they dont want to photo 'problem' coins, then a refund for the photo service is in order.
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<< <i>I do not want PCGS to start doing "net details" grading or anything similar. Handling garbage would get their hands (and market image) dirty. >>
I've never understood this comment. Put the problem coins in a different slab, like NGC and ANACS do. How does that decrease the perceived value of the "regular" coins?
Also, when they BB a coin, ill will is created, as they're taking money that was sent in for a coin to be slabbed, and it appears as though they did nothing (or worse, appears that they're just trying to generate another grading fee with a resubmission.)
I've seen plenty of problem coins in PCGS holders. They just don't list the problem on the label.
I definitely agree with this one. I have an obviously cleaned, key date Seated Dime in a PCGS holder. It has XF details and is graded VF20. Why? Because it was an Eliasberg coin.
<< <i>Did the photo service cost extra?
I believe they still should photo the coin, if you pay for that service...problem or not.
If they dont want to photo 'problem' coins, then a refund for the photo service is in order. >>
I don't recall if the photo service was extra. I believe, though, that it was part of the grading service. I only paid one fee.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Having the coin in a major brand slab, authenticated, is a big plus when selling...especially on eBay. >>
so use a competitor. pcgs is nothing special.
K S >>
PCGS coins bring more money. It is just a fact of life in the coin marketplace. >>
And part of that is because they do not grade problem coins. >>
bingo.
you want the (alleged) benefits, you put up with the (alleged) crappy requirements.
case closed
K S
<< <i>If you plan to market the coins on eBay, having them in a major brand slab will increase realizations. Raw coins on eBay are being discounted, even if nice, because of the presence of too many scammers who fail to disclose problems or just plain overgrade. >>
here's another idea: market the coins somewhere else. ebay is just 1 single outlet, many others are available. hate to wake you up to this, but when you got to any typical mid-sized auction venue, raw problem coins usually bring MORE then similar coins in details-graded slabs. i've attended plenty enough of auctions to know this as a virtually unassailable fact.
K S
<< <i>It's time PCGS stopped body-bagging and started giving "details" grades. >>
I disagree. I think it's time you stopped sending crappy coins for grading.
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case closed>>
There's a reason you can't buy a a Lexus with Toyota money. I have an answer. Don't buy problem coins.
Still, I agree with what others said. Some Kool-Aiders want ALL their coins in PCGS plastic at least in part because of perceived increased market value and acceptance...but much of the reason for that is...they don't slab "problem coins" (as they define it)! If PCGS started slabbing problem coins, would their brand name reputation suffer for it? I think it might.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
Sure, there are the obvious signs of cleaning, but I just got a slabbed coin (by 1 of the other 2-3 top TPG) coming back for 'Altered Surface'.
I wish they would explain what PCGS saw that the other's missed.
Might be a good lesson to learn for the money spent.
A lexus is a Toyota. it just has a different label on it.
Figures...
I live in Michigan, and I don't know Jack about cars!!! This one should work: There's a reason you can't buy a Ferrari with Yugo Money. (They make Yugo's anymore???).
<< <i>Figures...
I live in Michigan, and I don't know Jack about cars!!! This one should work: There's a reason you can't buy a Ferrari with Yugo Money. (They make Yugo's anymore???).
Actually, the "Lexus for Toyota money" is a PERFECT analogy. Don't change it!
A Lexus has basically the same "guts" as a Toyota (engine, drivetrain, etc.)
Yet people pay a lot more for the guts because they are in a Lexus "holder" and not a "Toyota" holder. So in some sense, people who pay more for a Lexus are paying more for the same thing...because of the prestige and market perception of the Lexus "holder."
Substitute the "guts" of a car for the coin itself, and substitute the "brand label" for the brand of plastic...and the analogy works perfectly.
Actually, they do, but not they are no longer imported into the US. I was in Macedonia last summer and saw quite a few there. A few were even moving
Ziggy - Depending on the model, the guts may be the same or they may be different. I looked at the Toyota Highlander and its cousin, the Lexus RX330, last year. In this case the guts are the same. The body is more rounded and there are a few more cup holders, etc. inside. I didn't think it was worth the extra $5K, so I bought a Highlander. I don't feel the need to impress anyone. Maybe that's why I'm not a Registry guy, either.
In the case of PCGS, you're getting reputation along with the slab. How many people here would pay the same for an ICG slabbed coin that you would for a PCGS slabbed slab?
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>In the case of PCGS, you're getting reputation along with the slab. How many people here would pay the same for an ICG slabbed coin that you would for a PCGS slabbed slab? >>
I would if the coin were the same. Especially if I was planning to crack it out and keep it raw. In fact, I'm watching an ICG coin on the Bay right now, one that ends in three hours or so.
<< <i>
<< <i>In the case of PCGS, you're getting reputation along with the slab. How many people here would pay the same for an ICG slabbed coin that you would for a PCGS slabbed slab? >>
I would if the coin were the same. Especially if I was planning to crack it out and keep it raw. >>
Assume that you saw the same coin on Ebay (or anywhere) two different times. Once it was slabbed by ICG and the other time it was slabbed by PCGS. Would you really expect to pay the same? Having watched over some auctions (although obviously not as many as a lot of people here), I wouldn't. The marketplace simply likes PCGS coins better. If you end up paying the same price for the same coin in different holders, you probably paid too much for the ICG slab. Maybe an ANACS slab would be different (although I think PCGS still has a slight edge there, too), but a "third world" slab simply commands less money.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>Assume that you saw the same coin on Ebay (or anywhere) two different times. Once it was slabbed by ICG and the other time it was slabbed by PCGS. Would you really expect to pay the same? >>
I wouldn't *expect* to pay the same, but I'd be *willing* to pay the same for an essentially identical coin. I'd expect to win a PCGS coin at auction less with the same bid, but I wouldn't raise the bid just because it was the "right" slab.
<< <i>The marketplace simply likes PCGS coins better. If you end up paying the same price for the same coin in different holders, you probably paid too much for the ICG slab. >>
If the marketplace wants to pay extra money for the plastic (not the coin), that's up to the marketplace. I won't do it. And I still wind up getting some PCGS coins anyway.
I have the same outlook. I don't add a percentage for the plastic that surrounds a coin, unless I HAVE to have the coin, and I know it will cost more in pcgs plastic...
You probably would never see that same standard on a date like 1882-CC. All dates should have the same standards - no free grading passes for the key dates!
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<< <i>You probably would never see that same standard on a date like 1882-CC. All dates should have the same standards - no free grading passes for the key dates! >>
Actually, I notice the opposite for condition rarities like 1884-S, 1896-O and 1901-P. A coin that might normally get a 64 grade might get a 61 or 62, and something that might usually grade a 62 would be a 58 for these dates.
The wiser the collector, the better coins you will buy and possibly submit.
Eventually I will submit more Gold to be graded but whats the hurry?? The Grading services will always be there and my Gold coins will always be there!
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K S
Personally, I like the idea of them using a different name to slab problem coins... PCSS? (Problem Coin Slabbing Service).