Major Find at the Baltimore Show - An 1813 Half Eagle

BillJones · November 11, 2006 5:49AM

I was a bit surprised to find this 1813 half eagle at the Baltimore show in NGC AU-58. As a type coin, this matronly looking, husky lady is difficult to find. While it is quite true that the 1813 half eagle is a rather “common date” the term is relative. There are probably less than 1,000 of these coins surviving in all grades. Aside from the somewhat more formidable 1818, this is really the only “common” date in the series, which runs from 1813 to 1829. Included in this group is the 1822 of which only three are known.

When Alexander Hamilton recommended the weights for the first U.S. gold coins, he thought that a proper ratio would be 15 parts silver to one part of gold. Through out the 1790s, this ratio continued to increase until by the dawn of the new century it had become almost 16 to 1. As a result all of the early U.S. gold coins contained too much metal relative to their silver sisters and many of them were melted. Hardest hit in this melt were that later dates from the ‘teens until mid 1834. At that time Congress following Andrew Jackson’s recommendation lowered the weight of U.S. gold, and the coins began to circulate freely for the first time.

Although this piece has some marks, its surfaces have not been stripped, which sadly true for many early U.S. gold coins that are now on the market. Sadly too many collectors think that “bright and shiny” is better. That is quite true when one is speaking of original mint luster, but when the luster comes from a scrub brush or a bottle, it is not good.

My official grade for this piece is AU-55, not AU-58. But I did see a PCGS AU-55 on the floor that was not quite as nice as this piece, so perhaps I’m being too conservative.

Oney · November 11, 2006 5:52AM

Really nice looking gold piece. Congratulations on your recent purchase!

robertpr · November 11, 2006 5:54AM

That is really a great piece and an outstanding pickup. Congratulations!

Leiana · November 11, 2006 5:59AM

That is a gorgeous coin!

Thanks for sharing the pictures and history!!

-Amanda

JRocco · November 11, 2006 6:10AM

That is a beautiful example of a beautiful coin Bill.
Thanks for the post.
Nice coin

RYK · November 11, 2006 6:24AM

I love those. I passed on one a few years ago and have regretted it ever since. Someday...

Nice pick-up.

MisterBungle · November 11, 2006 6:34AM

A thing of beauty!!

~

BillJones · November 11, 2006 6:34AM

According to the books I've read, most examples of this coin are Uncirculated. I guess that explains why the Gray Sheet says an MS-60 is only worth $500 more than an AU-58. There are two problems with that. First, an MS-60 is usually a pretty ugly coin. Second, the grading services seldom assign the MS-60 grade to anything. The usual procedure is to use MS-61 or 62 for a real nice slider.

And at any rate the AU-55 I saw on the floor had a starting price of $10,500 marked on it. I bought this one for a fair amount less.

In general I found the prices to be a bit softer at the Baltimore show than I had in the past. I picked up a couple of early MS-63 Walking Liberty half dollars for a customer for bid or close to it, which was something I had not been about to do for a year or so. And these were decent white or near white coins. They were not the usual darkly toned pieces that no one wants, which are often offered at "bargain" prices.

I also found a couple of Proof Seated Liberty quarters which I liked. No everyone will agree because they are classic blue Proofs with some red and golden highlights. A lot of collectors like white coins, even though everyone with brain knows that 99% of them have been dipped.

CoinAddict · November 11, 2006 6:52AM

An outstanding example.

nucklehead · November 11, 2006 7:01AM

Beautiful coin and a very interesting write up.

coinkat · November 11, 2006 8:58AM

terrific coin... I like the look, the color and overall appearance

TwoSides2aCoin · November 11, 2006 9:23AM

Bill, thank you for more than just posting a picture of the coin , but for your insight on the condition of the market in more than one sector, the history of a coin and how the grades differ in the plastic. It is really educational reading; all of it, so thank you again !

Joe

NumisOxide · November 11, 2006 9:32AM

Beautiful early gold piece.

MikeKing · November 11, 2006 9:44AM

that's an outstanding coin, and thank you for the post!

DaveG · November 11, 2006 9:47AM

Bill,

Nice Coin!

Was it just reposing in some dealer's case waiting for anyone to come along or was it a dealer you knew?

AZLARRY · November 11, 2006 10:04AM

That is a great looking Half Eagle. Looked at your type set and your new proof Liberty Seated quarter has a great deal of eye appeal, very original.

mgoodm3 · November 11, 2006 10:08AM

nice coin. Don't got one myself, but I've taken one's picture.

Baley · November 11, 2006 10:22AM

Wonderful coin, congrats on obtaining a very nice example of a very tough type. I'm green with envy.

LeeG · November 11, 2006 11:20AM

Man, that is one sweet piece Bill! Much congrat's on that one.

Superb color and definition.

BillJones · November 11, 2006 11:27AM

<< <i>Bill,

Nice Coin!

Was it just reposing in some dealer's case waiting for anyone to come along or was it a dealer you knew? >>

I knew him, and we have done business before. But we did have a discussion about overgraded coins in slabs that he tried to sell to me in the past so we now have a mutual respect for our abilities.

seateddime · November 11, 2006 12:00PM

nice gold

FoundingFather · November 11, 2006 12:38PM

Great coin and great post!

tydye · November 11, 2006 12:54PM

Killer piece!

Longacre · November 11, 2006 1:23PM

Awsome look to that coin, Bill Jones! Congrats!!

Stuart · November 11, 2006 1:31PM

Bill: Congratulations on your rare find, and excellent pickup. She's a beauty!!

I hope that you get much pleasure and enjoyment in owning that pretty coin.

mozin · November 11, 2006 3:40PM

I would love to own that coin.

Thanks for posting, and including some background.

coinlieutenant · November 11, 2006 3:47PM

Outstanding!! I sold my PCGS AU50 OGH example some time ago...and I still miss it.
J

BillJones · November 11, 2006 10:38PM

Yes, I'm already enjoying this greatly. Lining up a type set of early gold coins is a tremendous challenge. Just finding these coins for sale is difficult. One usually has to go to a regional or national show or attend a major auction.

After that there are number challenges. First there is the issue of condition. Choice AU -55 or 58 are my target grades. Then there is the issue of early mint practices. I don’t rule out all coins with adjustment marks, (During the early days of the mint gold and silver coin blanks that weighed more than the legal standard were reduced in weight by running a file over the surfaces to remove excess metal.) but those marks much be such that they don’t result in making the coin ugly.

And finally there is issue of numismatic abuse. More than a few early gold coins have damaged by those who polished their surfaces or used them for jewelry. Of late NCS has gotten into the act with their “curating” processes. While a small number of coins do need help, the vast majority of pieces that NCS now messes with come off poorer for the experience IMO. Many of these coins look like they have been cleaned with Brasso.

So, yes, moving slowly on this collection is the only way for me to go, and so far this is where I’ve arrived on the $5 gold pieces:

PCGS AU-58

PCGS AU-55

NGC AU-58

Lakesammman · November 11, 2006 10:43PM

proper ratio would be 15 parts silver to one part of gold

Nice coin.

Did you mean to say 15 parts gold to 1 part silver??

BillJones · November 11, 2006 11:22PM

<< <i>proper ratio would be 15 parts silver to one part of gold

Nice coin.

Did you mean to say 15 parts gold to 1 part silver?? >>

No, gold was supposed to cost 15 times more valuable than silver.

The classic ratio that was drilled into everyone's head was 16 parts of silver were equal in value to one part of gold. The reason for that stemmed from the presidential campaigns of 1896 and 1900 during which William Jennings Bryan tried to drill that ratio into everyone’s head. The REAL ratio at that time was a good deal higher.

Looking at it from a modern perspective, according the November 3, 2006 Gray Sheet, the price of gold was $604.70 and the price of silver was $12.20. That would make the modern ratio almost 50 to 1!

AND if you are a silver bug, you could argue to the gullible that silver should really be priced at $37.79. Back in the late 1970s, when the Hunt Brothers were squandering their inheritance, the old 16 to 1 ratio was close to reality. At one point gold was $850 and ounce and silver was $55 and ounce, which works out to 15.5 to 1.

pbfloyd · November 11, 2006 11:26PM

Mr. Jones Your impeccable taste in gold is only surpassed by your world class knowlage of poltical tokens!

As you can see I am not above kissing up for discounts!!

DorkGirl · November 12, 2006 12:34AM

I always love your posts! Thanks

JJM · November 12, 2006 12:38AM

very nice pc of gold,....you must be overjoyed with it !

Lakesammman · November 12, 2006 1:59AM

Appreciate the clarification - learned something new today. I thought you were referring to the content of the coin and not the relative value ratio

topstuf · November 12, 2006 2:12AM

Arrrrhhhhh..... Bill, I feel like Rumpelstiltskin. I still have that coin on my want list with some dealers.

That is a superior example in every way. Every bit as satisfying as an unc.

I'd take it in a heartbeat.

I'd even PAY for it.

nwcs · November 12, 2006 2:15AM

Beautiful coin and a joy to see. Wish I could see it first hand.

topstuf · November 12, 2006 2:39AM

whiiiiiine...... dang, that is nice. Can't get the stupid thing outta my mind. Now I guess I...gotta... go to Santa Clara an enjoy the Dublin traffic.

If anyone has comparable FOR SALE, I'd sure like a shot.

If not for just money, I have a PCGS 53 1803/2 or a PCGS 55 1807 (bust right) for part trade.

dern you, Bill.

oreville · November 12, 2006 2:52AM

Bill: Fabulous looking coin. Whether it is AU-55 or AU-58 does not matter as it is so pretty looking and PQ for the assigned grade.

Congratulations!

topstuf · November 12, 2006 3:37AM

oreville..... But doncha think that mebbe it might be AT or puttied or whizzed

an mebbe he shud sell it quick to some sap before it manifests itself?

Huh? mebbe, huh?

A. Sap

oreville · November 12, 2006 4:14AM

topstuf:

I am sure Bill smelled it first to be sure?

You know that nose grease can be detected without opening your eyes.

Mido1986 · February 8, 2025 3:16AM

hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, I live in Europe and I would like to buy a 1813 $5 capped bust gold half eagle and after some time sell it hopefully for more money.
what do you think, is the price of 11000$ too much for that coin, I would like to hear your opinion, the coin is vf/xf in appearance

MFeld · February 8, 2025 6:24AM

@Mido1986 said:
hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, I live in Europe and I would like to buy a 1813 $5 capped bust gold half eagle and after some time sell it hopefully for more money.
what do you think, is the price of 11000$ too much for that coin, I would like to hear your opinion, the coin is vf/xf in appearance

Welcome to the forum. No one can even begin to provide a helpful answer regarding the coin you asked about, without first seeing clear pictures of it.

HillbillyCollector · February 8, 2025 7:45AM

@Mido1986 said:
hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, I live in Europe and I would like to buy a 1813 $5 capped bust gold half eagle and after some time sell it hopefully for more money.
what do you think, is the price of 11000$ too much for that coin, I would like to hear your opinion, the coin is vf/xf in appearance

>
Welcome aboard.
As Mark said, it’s tough to say without seeing the coin/images. I will say if the coin's a crusty original CAC coin, it would probably sell in a heartbeat over here if it’s a XF45. I know I would be keenly interested myself!😉
While you see these coins all the time, truly nice pieces are another story!

retirednow · February 8, 2025 8:48AM

Think about starting with prior auction prices for grade comparison's
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details/1813-ms/8116

Mido1986 · February 8, 2025 10:11AM

hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, I live in Europe and I would like to buy a 1813 $5 capped bust gold half ea> @HillbillyCollector said:

@Mido1986 said:
hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, I live in Europe and I would like to buy a 1813 $5 capped bust gold half eagle and after some time sell it hopefully for more money.
what do you think, is the price of 11000$ too much for that coin, I would like to hear your opinion, the coin is vf/xf in appearance

>
Welcome aboard.
As Mark said, it’s tough to say without seeing the coin/images. I will say if the coin's a crusty original CAC coin, it would probably sell in a heartbeat over here if it’s a XF45. I know I would be keenly interested myself!😉
While you see these coins all the time, truly nice pieces are another story!

Thank you very much for your answer, the coin is rated very good to excellent by coin experts. I would like to buy it but I don't know if it is possible to sell the coin for more money in, for example, 5-10 years.

jonathanb · February 8, 2025 10:28AM

@Mido1986 said:
I don't know if it is possible to sell the coin for more money in, for example, 5-10 years.

If you don't know, then I'm confident the answer is "not a chance".

Coin collecting does not favor people without knowledge. Investing in coins most certainly doesn't.

Looking at it another way... If there is any reasonable chance to resell it for more money, don't you think that someone else would buy it before you do?

DisneyFan · February 8, 2025 10:33AM

First, I recently sold a gold coin at melt that was not in a third party grading service slab to a very experienced coin dealer in his brick and mortar shop. He spent several minutes weighting and measuring the coin utilizing tools from a speciality briefcase to confirm it was not counterfeit before he agreed to buy it.
Second, there are no assurances coins will go up in value in 5-10 years. In the last 5-10 years I've also seen them go down in value, sometimes substantially.
If a $11,000.00 coin is not in a third party grading service and without a CAC I would not touch it unless the seller first offers to submit it to those services in the USA.

MFeld · February 8, 2025 10:34AM

@Mido1986 said:

hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, I live in Europe and I would like to buy a 1813 $5 capped bust gold half ea> @HillbillyCollector said:

@Mido1986 said:
hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, I live in Europe and I would like to buy a 1813 $5 capped bust gold half eagle and after some time sell it hopefully for more money.
what do you think, is the price of 11000$ too much for that coin, I would like to hear your opinion, the coin is vf/xf in appearance

>
Welcome aboard.
As Mark said, it’s tough to say without seeing the coin/images. I will say if the coin's a crusty original CAC coin, it would probably sell in a heartbeat over here if it’s a XF45. I know I would be keenly interested myself!😉
While you see these coins all the time, truly nice pieces are another story!

Thank you very much for your answer, the coin is rated very good to excellent by coin experts. I would like to buy it but I don't know if it is possible to sell the coin for more money in, for example, 5-10 years.

That’s a very vague “rating”. The image looks like it was professionally shot and the coin looks Almost Uncirculated to me.

As two points of reference, a PCGS MS61 example brought $15,000 last September and an NGC AU58 sold for $11,400 last November. As nice as the coin appears in the images, unless it’s been graded a minimum of AU55 by a very highly regarded grading company, I believe the $11,000 price is too high. If the coin’s being auctioned, knowledgeable bidders who can view it in hand will have a huge advantage over those who can’t.

Clackamas1 · February 8, 2025 10:36AM

Less than 1000 is common try getting an 1860's HE. This is rife with issues of less than 100 known. This last Heritage had nearly all of them. Now that was a rare event, you won't see those coins again.

Mido1986 · February 8, 2025 10:54AM

Thank you all for your answers, the coin comes Delivered in a representative luxury box and certificate of authenticity, so I am sure it is original because it is sold by a reputable coin company, I am a beginner in this, I have mostly bought Krugerrand coins and Kookaburras, so I have no experience with American ones.

MFeld · February 8, 2025 10:57AM

@Mido1986 said:
Thank you all for your answers, the coin comes Delivered in a representative luxury box and certificate of authenticity, so I am sure it is original because it is sold by a reputable coin company, I am a beginner in this, I have mostly bought Krugerrand coins and Kookaburras, so I have no experience with American ones.

In that case, I strongly recommend that you not buy it. Neither the certificate of authenticity nor the representation that the seller is a “reputable coin company” provide any assurance that fair market value of the coin is necessarily even close to the asking price.

Major Find at the Baltimore Show - An 1813 Half Eagle

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