T3 Turkey Red Thread

packman · October 17, 2006 11:55AM

I have been working on both the T3 Turkey Red set of Hall of Fame players in PSA 4 and a complete 1933 Goudey set in PSA 5/6. I am around 30% complete on the Goudey and in the single digits on the T3 set. I am realizing that with my other projects, I will need to focus on one of the sets because I cannot afford both. I am leaning towards selling my Goudeys and my 1955 Topps partial set (60%) and focus on the T3's. I love the design of the T3s. Does anyone have any comments on which set they would focus on? Is anybody working on a T3 set? How difficult is it to find the T3? Does SGC grade T3? Does anybody have pictures of advertisments for the T3 set? Do any of the back variations have a price premium (like T206s) or is it not an issue with this set?

David

Wondo · October 17, 2006 12:48PM

David,

I vote for T3's.

Pick up a copy of Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards. There are three volumes; the one you want is devoted to tobacco issues with excellent coverage on T#'s. His website is www.oldjudge.com.

John

Griffins · October 17, 2006 12:53PM

Sell the Goudey's, you can replace them anytime. T3's are much more expensive and tough to find, especially in the condition you're looking for.
SGC just started grading T3's, but IMO the PSA holders are nicer- not as big, and a perfect fit. I"m very slowly working on the T3/T9 set, and think it is one of the nicest sets in the hobby.
I don't have scans of T3 ads, but I have seen the actual display. It pictures an ad, a T3, Silk and L1 leather. It's pretty incredible. Back premiums are not an issue with this set, at least not yet. There are variations, the ad backs are in the higher series, the lower has a variation on the # listed, but overall they are all the same.
Here's a picture of the pack that contained the coupon that could be redeemed for T3's, L1's or silks (S81's I think).

Griffins · October 17, 2006 12:54PM

Lipsets 3 books have been combined into 1 volume, and IMO is a must have reference for pre War cards. You can get it directly from him or from VCBC

Wondo · October 17, 2006 12:55PM

<< Lipsets 3 books have been combined into 1 volume, and IMO is a must have reference for pre War cards. You can get it directly from him or from VCBC >>

Griffins,

Thanks for providing the link. I was just on Lew's site and couldn't find the book for sale.

John

qualitycards · October 17, 2006 1:08PM

DAVID - when commons look like this...

and Hall Of Famers look like this...

The decision is quite clear what set I choose!

...jay

packman · October 17, 2006 11:09PM

John: Thanks for the tip on the book. I will pick one up.

Griffins: Thanks for the info. I would love to see a picture of that ad. It must be impressive. I agree regarding the ability to always pick up the Goudey's. There never seems to be an end in sight of Goudey's from the auction houses. However, the T3's seem to be hit or miss. The Cobb tends to show up often; however, the other HOFs tend to be a little more difficult to locate. I love the Turkey Red box. I have not seen one for sale. Do they come up often? Have you ever seen the coupon or packaging that contained the Turkey Red card? Those would be nice companion pieces.

Jay: I have followed your set of the T3 cards. I agree that they are stunning cards.

I have decided to go for the T3 HOF set. The hard part is to limit myself to the HOFs. Especially when I see the McIntyre that Jay posted.

packman · October 17, 2006 11:13PM

I have another question. I have noticed that several PSA 4 T3 cards for sale have some paper loss on the back. Some of the paper loss is substantial. I always thought that paper loss resulted in a PSA 1 grade. Is that only true with paper loss on the front? If not, is this a case of PSA missing the paper loss?

David

Griffins · October 18, 2006 12:49AM

David-
Jay is the expert on these but basically as you chose which card you wanted when you sent in the coupons Cobb was chosen a lot more often than "a safe play at third" or a common player.
I"ve got a few of the coupons but can't seem to locate the scan. I'll look a bit more. Empty packs seem to come up occassionally. I haven't seen an envelope that any of the premiums (T3, silk, or leather) were shipped in. The leathers are really scarce, and usually found with a pinhole in them. I recently saw a large collection of them in pristine condition and it was incredible.
In your last scenario, I think PSA missed the paper loss. Not uncommon lately.

qualitycards · October 18, 2006 1:53AM

ANTHONY - you had to choose 3 choices when you redeemed your coupon vouchers
and there are more Cobbs that any other player for the reason you stated since he was
popular and also through the years 10, 20, 30 etc years later one may throw out a Slim Sallee
but hold onto a Ty Cobb.
PSA has graded 35 Cobb's, more then any other card. And unlike cards from a 1976 set where
submitters may submit superstars more often. Usually a T3 submitter will submit anyone they have
as long as the condition warrants. I have seen cards missing a large chunk in a corner or the entire
back is skinned since it was glued to a scrapbook and others that were varnished etc...
So these won't get a numerical grade from PSA and few would try to submit them.
So any card that looks OK will get submitted from Cobb to Harry Coveleski...jay

qualitycards · October 18, 2006 1:59AM

There are 3 vouchers that were accepted to redeem the cards
10 from TURKEY RED or 25 from FEZ or OLD MILL

Here are the scans from the T.Red & Fez vouchers that I scanned
awhile ago.
I do have an Old Mill laying around as well, I'll see if I can dig it up...jay

packman · October 18, 2006 2:28AM

Griffins and Jay: Thank you again. Would either of you have a coupon to sell? I have couple of more questions based on Jay's scans:

(1) Was there a subsequent coupon for the T3 cards not mentioned on the scanned coupons? For example, I do not notice Home Run Baker on the list of players. Or were these players added after the fact due to lack of available redemption cards?

(2) I notice that the PSA label refers to 1911 but the coupons state the cards will be ready to mail on April 1, 1910. Shouldn't this be a 1910 set or a 1910-11 set?

David

Griffins · October 18, 2006 3:19AM

Jay is showing the first series coupons. The second series was issued later. Turkey Red referred to the first series as Baseball series, the 2nd as athlete series. For some reason Burdick chose to designate the boxers with a separate ACC number, T9. T3's and T9's are really all the same set. IMO the boxers are much better looking, due to design. I've scanned one below. And yes, that is paper loss on the front.
The set was issued in 1910, the offer ended in 1911.

BTW, any resemblance to the boxer depicted in this card and CU member "Basilone" is purely coincidental. But it definitely makes you believe in reincarnation.

qualitycards · October 18, 2006 6:16AM

<< The set was issued in 1910, the offer ended in 1911 >>

Correct!
When I first rec'd my Turkey Red voucher I noticed they were good from May 1, 1910
to June 30, 1911. So it dawned on me as well that this was NOT a 1911 issue but rather
a 1910/1911 issue. The Standard Catalog Of Baseball Cards listed it as 1911 as well as
PSA & GAI on their certification flips.
I contacted The Standard Catalog's editor Bob Lemke and he responded

"Hello Jay,
Your coupon makes an excellent case for moving back the date of issue on T3 to 1910. Since the new edition of the catalog in now on press, I'll have time to work on this before next year. Thanks for your report.

Bob Lemke"

Many thought this was a 1911 issue since the T3 cards state the offer expires on June 30, 1911
on the checklist backs and few had access to the coupon vouchers.
The Standard Catalog did indeed change the info in their 2006 guide.

DAVID - I don't have any vouchers for sale, but there not that tough nor expensive.
$15 to $25 should land you one on eBay unless the seller has a higher Buy It Now price...jay

packman · October 18, 2006 6:56AM

I wish you didn't show me the scan of the boxer. Now, I want those cards too. I am going to focus on the HOF and select commons (thanks to Jay for sharing the McIntyre). Then I will work in some boxers. Do you know if the boxers also sell for a premium over SMR like the baseball players?

Jay: That was interesting regarding your e-mail correspondence with Bob Lemke. Do you know if PSA will correct their flips? I went to your website. Thank you for taking time to scan the T3. I really enjoyed looking at them. It must be amazing to see the grouping in person. You have an amazing collection of T3s.

David

Griffins · October 18, 2006 7:47AM

David- Just to add more temptation-the boxers are the same pose as their T218's, so both together look really cool as well.

qualitycards · October 18, 2006 7:50AM

DAVID - I doubt PSA will change the flips since they've graded 2000 already (actually 1989)
To me the T9 boxers are part of the set since their numbers fall in between thew 1-126
the T9's are #51 to 76.
There were no T9 pricing in the smr up till a year ago and I sent a grid to Joe Orlando
and he used my info to price them.
Even though 14 of the 26 boxers are HOFers, most are considered commons except
for Jack Johnson, Abe Attell, Sam Langford, Jim Jeffries & Stanley Ketchell
the others will sell for a chunk below the common baseball player prices.
There's less boxers around and less collectors so it evens out a bit.
I have a dupe T9 boxer that Anthony posted in a PSA-3, if your interested
please PM or Email.
And remember....once you join the Turkey Red world, theres no going back

...jay

qualitycards · October 18, 2006 7:53AM

<< Just to add more temptation-the boxers are the same pose as their T218's, so both together look really cool as well >>

Same can be said w/ the T3 baseball players as 1/3 are identical/similar shots to T206's

Griffins · October 18, 2006 9:36AM

Jay- the scans aren't showing up for me.
Does every T3 match a T206?

packman · October 18, 2006 10:05AM

Jay, I also cannot see the scans. I just sold off my Goudey set. My 1955 Topps set is next. I am excitied about putting this T3 (and now T9) set together. I figure I will focus on the 25 (or around that) HOF cards, 15 common cards that I really like and some of the boxers. However, knowing my lack of focus, I will probably try for the complete set.

If anybody sees a Turkey Red box for sale, please let me know. I will be keeping on eye out for one.

Thanks

David

packman · October 18, 2006 10:13AM

Griffin: I love those T9 cards. It must have been hard to intimidate your opponent with the name "Honey Mellody." He must have made sweet music in the ring.

RayBShotz · October 18, 2006 10:17AM

If you guys don't cut it out; I may not be able to resist a 3rd go around!!

RayB

Griffins · October 18, 2006 11:08AM

David- you want to read something depressing, research the lives of some of the boxers in the T218 and T9 sets. Brutal.

qualitycards · October 18, 2006 11:52AM

<< Does every T3 match a T206? >>

About 1/3 of the set does.
I'll play around with my attachments and show off a few T3's w/ T206's

qualitycards · October 18, 2006 12:15PM

Here are some attachments I made w/ T3's and repro (sorry) T206's
so at least you'll see the similarities...jay

RipublicaninMass · October 18, 2006 12:32PM

That smith is one handsome fells, now I see why the used the same photo! he could be Don Mossi's uncle

packman · October 18, 2006 12:35PM

Thanks Jay. Do you know whether there was one artist or multiple artists for the cards? They are so visually appealing. I wonder why they didn't get the respect until recently. Was it simply the function of PSA grading them that caused the increase in demand and price? If so, then I have to start looking into "cards" that PSA doesn't currently grade but may (like blankets).

David

qualitycards · October 18, 2006 12:46PM

David - not sure about the artists
be it 1 guy that did them all or a group that collaborated on them.

They always had respect in our hobby, they were never a secret
or anyone's second cousin.

3 things have helped their exposure

1)PSA/GAI/SGC now all grade & slab them
2)Topps last year and this year have made Turkey Red modern sets incl Football
3)and my article in SMR last October helped fuel the collecting fire of this set.

I'm just kidding about #3
although I was happy to share my findings & information w/ all that would listen.
Lord knows my wife could care less about a Wild Bill Donovan or a Bugs Raymond.
And finds it odd that I care about them.

Griffins · October 18, 2006 2:13PM

I looked at T3's for years and thought it was the most underpriced vintage issue. Unfortunately I never acted on that, and as soon as PSA started grading them the prices shot way up. Now that SGC is as well they should jump a bit more.
Jay, that Overall is amazing! Is that the nicest card in your set? Stunning.

qualitycards · October 18, 2006 3:35PM

ANTHONY - Yes! a finer card doesn't exist

He was quite a good pitcher too!
In the 1908 World Series he won 2 games including a 3 hitter to win the final game.
The Cubbies haven't won a World Series since!
I wonder if Sweet Lou can bring a championship to the Cubs nation!

Beardown · October 19, 2006 7:55AM

I'm an avid reader of this forum and post only when my interest is sparked...Turkey Red's will do that to you. Great reading so far here and love the scans. I own (2) T9's ..Jack Johnson PSA 3 and James Jeffrries PSA 1 but have to say they are probably two of myall time favorite cards to date. The boxing cards in general are WAY under valued across the board and not just in the T9 series but ALL the early boxing cards in my opinion. Very addictive and just wanted to keep this post going and possibly spark other discussion on early boxing in general (not trying or meaning to highjack this thread) and apprreciate the knowledge of all the board members here.

Griffins · October 19, 2006 8:50AM

<< The boxing cards in general are WAY under valued across the board and not just in the T9 series but ALL the early boxing cards in my opinion >>

I would've agreed with you up until about 6 months ago- have you seen T218 prices lately?

Beardown · October 19, 2006 9:06AM

The T218's are a great set and are finally getting some recognition but still are not the main stream collectible like some of the other multi-sport sets i.e. SportKings. Of course the big name's aren't even close in the T218's but what pieces of art! Anyone here try collecting any of the Caramel boxing issues? I have a E79 , 27 Scrappers Jack Johnson in PSA 5 that again is a card I absolutely love and very seldom see up for sale and goes for much less than any of the star baseball issues of the same era. Just a great nich' in this wonderful world of collecting we all love.

qualitycards · October 19, 2006 2:20PM

Just posted a T206 PSA on the bay tonight thats another match for a T3
Here's a scan of the slabbed pair...jay

packman · October 30, 2006 6:21AM

Anthony and Jay:

I have a question about the T3 Mathewson. I was following the PSA 4 Mathewson in the recent Mastro auction. I decided not to bid because I assumed that it would sell in the $15,000 range (36% of the PSA 6 sale). I came up with this range based on two prior Mastro sales this year. A PSA 6 sold for approx. $44,000 and a PSA 2 sold for approx. $5,000. I was shocked to see the PSA 4 sell for approx. $6,700 (includes juice). I am kicking myself for not going after it. Do you guys think that $6,700 is fmv for this card or did the winner get a steal?

David

Griffins · October 30, 2006 6:27AM

I don't know about this one, but I have a friend who consigned another card and was very disappointed. I think in general Mastro's collectors auctions draw less attention due to a much simpler catalog and lower grade material.

packman · November 7, 2006 7:01AM

I was wondering how the collectors of graded T3's store the cards? I am starting to get in some graded cards. Here are the first two I just received. I will post scans of the others as I received them.

David

RipublicaninMass · November 7, 2006 7:10AM

WOW nice t3's!!!

Griffins · November 7, 2006 7:15AM

David- nothing like starting out strong!
Jay has a good way of storing them, I'll let him describe the specifics.

RayBShotz · November 7, 2006 7:37AM

David,
Those are quite impressive. Congrats! You can store them at my house if you like!

RayB

Griffins · November 7, 2006 7:48AM

David, your only concern is if you live in a place with humidity. Even slabbed it can eat up T3's in a matter of weeks. I'd highly recommend you store them in a mild, dry climate, preferably one 2450 miles west of your current locale.

1954 · November 7, 2006 8:01AM

I love the T3's. Anyone making this set is a true player in the card market. There is heavy competition on this set regardless of grade you go after. The eye appeal of these cards are breath taking and even the uneducated collector finds favor of a common over that of a named player. I used to have a Cy Young that had the eye appeal of a PSA 6 and a common (Rucker) in a PSA 6. Anytime I would show these off, friends would tell me that they love the design work of these. I am sad I sold them now.
Thanks for posting all the great scans Jay and Griff.

Shane

magellan · November 7, 2006 10:24AM

Very , very nice David !

Recognize this one Ray?

packman · November 7, 2006 10:37AM

Ray and Anthony: Thanks for the offers for housing the cards. Although I live in the sauna known as south Florida, my house feels like California. However, collecting these T3s may require me to increase the temp in the house.

Shane: I agree. I am really impressed by the T3s. I have collected many different sets (pre and post war). However, none of them compare to these cards. They remind me of minature paintings. I am trying to focus on the HOF and select commons and then branch out from there. I am also working on the T9s. Thanks to Jay, I have my first T9.

David

packman · November 7, 2006 10:39AM

That is a nice Niles. It amazes me how great the cards look. Even the common players are magnificent.

David

qualitycards · November 7, 2006 11:10AM

<< Even the common players are magnificent >>

DAVID - I agree!
Many have vibrant colors that are awesome.

RipublicaninMass · November 7, 2006 11:19AM

How much do the ad backs add in % to value?

qualitycards · November 7, 2006 11:31AM

RM - Nothing (in my estimation)
Ad backs are only in the high series and in many of those cards like Walter Johnson
PSA has graded more ad backs then checklist backs. So a Walter Johnson checklist back
card should be worth a premium.
I bid/buy T3's I need and if it has an ad back so be it. I will not pay a premium for it...jay

packman · November 7, 2006 12:05PM

Jay

Great cards. Anthony mentioned that you had a good way of storing the graded T3's. Would you please let me know how you store them. Thanks.

David

RipublicaninMass · November 7, 2006 1:16PM

great read by Jay!

qualitycards · November 7, 2006 3:25PM

RM - Glad you like the article. I wrote it a year and a half ago
and many pop #'s have changed and I've learned a bit more about
the set as well. So perhaps another article can be written down the
road.

DAVID - Anthony is correct, I have a perfect (for me anyway) storage
solution. First I put each Turkey Red slab in a comic book sleeve, it
fits perfectly as if this was its main function. It is paramount to keep
the slab from scratching & scuffing as it will appear that the card has
the scratches on it.
These slabs are very heavy so its a good precautionary method.
Then I place the slabs in a plastic storage unit I picked up at Staples.
Its made for files, but fits about 45 cards perfectly, all standing up and braced well.
You will need 3 of these plastic units to house an entire set. Although I'm
still a few short on the 126 card set, I have series 1 Baseball subjects in 1 box,
series II in another and the 26 T9 boxers in the last.
The boxes cost about $10 each and are heavy duty and called "Tote & Go"
There are probably a couple other brands that would work as well, so bring a slab
to Staples, Office Depot etc... and see what can work for you...jay

T3 Turkey Red Thread

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