<< <i>Your rambling nonsence is made all the worse because you have it all lumped together. Didn't you have English classes in the school you attended? Oh, in response, if you don't like slabs just don't buy them.
Ray >>
And you sir, you need to attend finishing school to brush up on your manners.
<< <i>Slabs have done nothing good for the Hobby! They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them. Mear SHEEP!
I recently read an article in one of the coin magazines that said "Some experts have learned to grade". That should not be SOME it should be every last one of us here and all the others collecting coins.
With the introduction of slabs people are buying coins they would have never bought before since they can Trust the TPG's Grading and look up a price via a price guide or Auction Archives. I see people buying all sorts of early proofs and knowing little info on the strinking, aspects or other things about the coin. All they know is they like it and it s a proof, maybe even a toned one. One grade point can make a coin go from $500.00 to $5,000.00 just because of the plastic it is in.
There are thousands of "sheep" buying slabs and not the coins! Now we even have sellers hyping OGH's like the coins should be undergraded and a lock for an upgrade! Why not learn to grade yourself and not worry about whose holder it is in? Take whatever the TPG says cover it up... and if you cannot tell the grade on the coin the don't buy it as you don't know enough to.
Takes us back before the Pre TPG era and coins were bought and sold on merits not what some slab says. I recently took a look at the registry, which in most part is a joke, unless you just want to show off your coins. I like that aspect of it but a set with no Pictures is pointless and a waste, (IMHO).
I can understand people who want the best coins they can afford and to have the greatest sets, which I cannot fault them on but nowadays all you need is money and not knowledge! I have also seen registry sets with coins and photos and there are some coins in the set that are clearly wrongfully graded!
The crackout game is a joke as well, since after all its the same coin no matter what number they put on the holder. Coin grading has got a bit tighter as of late on certain series' but it should not matter how the TPG's are grading at a certain period of time.
Slabs have also been a huge part in ruining many coins original skins, by dipping in hopes of an upgrade. Think of all the early American coins dipped and stripped. Before a slab it would not matter if it got to the next level as a dealer could sell the coins on its merits with the original skin on it. Dipped out coins suck.
If you want to argue the fact that Slabs have made coin buyer safer... thats Nonsense! You can still get a lot of crap in slabs and not only the lesser slabs! Just take a look at Ebay and see all the coins being sold outside of slabs that have problems! Slabbing has not stopped the problem coins from being sold to unsuspecting buyers, the majority of which do not know any better.
You say slabs offer a good protection and keep coins from getting hurt? It seems a great many coins survived many years without slabs. All slabs have done is made us less carefull when holding coins. If you drop a slab its ok since it is a plastic, unless it a new ANACS slab, then it might crack.
Now take away the slab and I bet you are much more careful with the coin. If someone would be kind enough to tell one good thing that has come out of a slab infested coin market please let me know. Until then, read books, learn to grade and know what you buy before you waste your hard earned money. Thanks and debate away!
Thanks Boom! >>
Well said! This should be REQUIRED READING for every coin collector, be he advanced, professional or casual. The ONLY difference, as I see it, between slabbed and non-slabbed, is that the criminals among us now have another tool (slabs) with which they can rip off the innocent and unsuspecting.
<< <i>Slabs have their place in the hobby and are here for the long term. They came into being for a reason. While some people yearn for a return to the old days, it is not happening. One consideration as everyone is always saying, "learn to grade". How do you bring more people into the hobby if you need to be an expert grader of raw coins. I know it has taken me years as a hobbyist to learn one series such that I would buy a raw coin.
Getting burned over raw coins (and I was also many years ago) kept me OUT of the hobby for a long time. I am now back in and if I want to buy a coin for my type set that is out of my expertise (indian gold for example) and I want to make sure it is not a fake, I buy a slabbed coin.
It comes down to this, the more information an individual has regarding an item, the better off he is. Let's also remember that not all slabs are created equally. For myself, I regard certain slabs as problem raw coins, especially if they are four figure and up coins.
At worst a slab from PCGS gives an intelligent opinion regarding the coin. EVERYONE is free to agree or disagree with that opinion and if you like your coins raw you are free to liberate the coin and enjoy it that way.
One final thought (probably expressed elseswhere but I did not read the entire thread). This is the wrong place to bash slabbing in terms of it being the worst thing to happen to numismatics. Remember who is PAYING for your ability to express and opinion and the reason most folks post here. PCGS is the market leader and using their forum to tell them to get out of business makes no sense, yet they continue to allow you to bash them. Speaks WELL of PCGS in my mind. They have a FAR more open mind than you do. >>
I respect what you have to say. However, while I have a choice to disagree, I do not have much of a choice anymore as far as realistic values. Why? Well, hey, thats a slabbed coin.
IF you are dropping big money on a coin, and you have no idea if its real, WTF are you doing?!?!?!?!?
Look at jewelry, ever see the person who gets a non certified diamond on a ring and WHAM, cubic zirc sure is pretty. Too bad you dropped 5 grand on a 100 dollar pos.
Authenticity and grade are 2 seperate issues. Slabbing has melded them into one thing which will NOT do anyone any favors. In fact, it will just feed the fire of over valuing coins.....IMO.
If you see a PCGS MS66 coin that you think is overgraded, dont buy it. WE set the market with our dollars. The cure for an overgraded coin is to vote with your dollars. Buy the coin not the holder as they say. All the plastic contains is the opinion of one to three people, depending upon the service the holders are valued differently in the marketplace.
There are overgraded and undergraded coins in all holders, no one ever said the grade is absolute. A PQ coin is a PQ coin. Consider slabs insurance some of us choose to pay. I owned coins when the dealers would always beat you the grade by 3 or 4 points. Now we just talk price. And of course there is rhetoric on both sides, but the collector can always keep his hands and his money in his pocket. A realistic value is one that the buyers put on a coin. Not a single buyer, but the collection of individuals who would desire the coin.
I fail to see how they have damaged the marketplace for the collector. For better or worse, there are modern coins in high grades that some people CHOOSE to collect. If you think they are just shiny pocket change, then dont buy them, but there is no reason for anyone to slam them for choices you vote with your dollars not to buy.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
The Moderns vs the classics are 2 different case. Take for instance the 2003 Cent that was graded MS 70. While it may a stunning coin in hand crack it out of the holder and see what you got. I bet I could put 100 coins 2003 Lincoln cents all of them 99 MS69's and the MS70 cover the labels up and you cou not pick out the coin. Why pay for something you cannot see. This is not a slam on that coin in particular, but any coin at any level.
<< <i>The Moderns vs the classics are 2 different case. Take for instance the 2003 Cent that was graded MS 70. While it may a stunning coin in hand crack it out of the holder and see what you got. I bet I could put 100 coins 2003 Lincoln cents all of them 99 MS69's and the MS70 cover the labels up and you cou not pick out the coin. Why pay for something you cannot see. This is not a slam on that coin in particular, but any coin at any level. >>
I tend to agree in general with what you are saying.
Take a bag of 1000 unc morgans and dump them on the table. Put them in order from MS60 on up and draw lines betrween where the 60's end and the 61's begin, and so on to the end. No experts would end up with the same order or even close IMO.
OTOH, slabs protect coins from owners that would surely have ruined or detracted from some important coins. ie those coins that an owner would not crack out but might not otherwise properly care for the coins.
<< <i>The Moderns vs the classics are 2 different case. Take for instance the 2003 Cent that was graded MS 70. While it may a stunning coin in hand crack it out of the holder and see what you got. I bet I could put 100 coins 2003 Lincoln cents all of them 99 MS69's and the MS70 cover the labels up and you cou not pick out the coin. Why pay for something you cannot see. This is not a slam on that coin in particular, but any coin at any level. >>
I tend to agree in general with what you are saying.
Take a bag of 1000 unc morgans and dump them on the table. Put them in order from MS60 on up and draw lines betrween where the 60's end and the 61's begin, and so on to the end. No experts would end up with the same order or even close IMO.
OTOH, slabs protect coins from owners that would surely have ruined or detracted from some important coins. ie those coins that an owner would not crack out but might not otherwise properly care for the coins. >>
Coincs made it along fine before slabs for many years. All slabs do is make the owners less carefull.
<< <i>This has to be one of the worst posts I've read on these boards in years. >>
--- ------------- I agree it's a bit of a"red herring" arguement, but he does raise some points I really hadn't thought through: clearly!
Here are some examples of what I mean: while a slab' grade is very important to many collectors--they have sometimes really been :the best thing to come out"!!!! for raw type coin guys. Examples?
1) I have a wonderful type group of :key or uncommon coins that without the slab worshippers, I'd never afford---These are almost all nice honest clean coins-- things like an F2 1794 half, 1932D Washington in F-2, a lovely colored, natural AG3 1889 CC morgan, quite a few old coppers with dark un-corroded surfaces,--except one stupid mistake an 1789 MS66 Gold cion from Nepal no one seemed to want but NGC, loved before I cracked it out to show the luste, A very very rare1888- S Morgan in MS65DMPL EXCEPT it has two scratchs and therefore is worth $80 or so--- instead of $9,500 in perfect condition---Lastly a host of toned morgans that re cleasrly NT bag toned, but I guess everyone is afriad of them now!! bUT how much can you lose on an A+ MS66 blue'red Morgan for $450???!!! I even buy Franklins and Roosies that are monster looking but "jusy miss the FL designaton! .. Guess I jut like pretty cons and love plastic collectors!!!!!!
HEY I respect registry slab llections--just as long as you don'r see it as an "investment"--slabsar good for testing authenticity that a purhase is the real deal.!!
Morgan Nut, Why do we need the numbers on slabs and not just the word Genuine? You would be getting your authenticity you wanted. No need to cluttler the plastic with numbers and letters.
When you take a $20 uncirculated Silver Eagle from the mint and put it in a slab that says "First Strike" or "20th Anniversary" and it sells for $300, and you can still get the EXACT SAME COIN from the mint for $20, then yes, slabs are the worst thing ever.
However, when you take a guy like me who decides one day to buy a 1908 Motto and a 1908 No Motto Saint Gaudens, and I know NOTHING about Saint Gaudens, that slab from PCGS, tells me at least I'm getting a real coin in a fairly accurate certain condition. Then that slab becomes the greatest thing ever.
I think the original post was very valid and was probably designed to get some debate going, which it sure did.
I like to buy my Gold coins in slabs, first to protect them also they are graded so I really know what I am buying! I do buy the Coin and not the slab! I do buy a lot of unslabbed Gold coins but I will eventually send them in for grading! When it comes time to sell, there won't be any dought in anyones mind what the coin is and the condition, Maybe I can get more when they sell! Only one collectors opinion!
Collector Of All U.S. Gold Coinage! Antique Soda Bottles And Antique Soda Related Advertising, and many other collectables! Life is too short, I might as well buy Gold while I'm still around!
<< <i>I like to buy my Gold coins in slabs, first to protect them also they are graded so I really know what I am buying! I do buy the Coin and not the slab! I do buy a lot of unslabbed Gold coins but I will eventually send them in for grading! When it comes time to sell, there won't be any dought in anyones mind what the coin is and the condition, Maybe I can get more when they sell! Only one collectors opinion! >>
The one mistake you make is no matter if the coin is raw or slabbed grading is subjective. There will always be someone who doubts the grade you give a coin or the grade on a slab. Sheep buy slabs, meaning people who can't grade or do not care to learn to grade a specific coin. Therefore slabs bring a higher price alot of the time for internet and sight unseen purchases. Thats not to say all people who buy slabs are sheep, but quite a few are. The collector base who knows how to grade with consistancy is not nowhere near as big as it should be. Just my thoughts.
At first I said I was not going to respond to this thread…but I finally thought about and here goes:
scenario: You walk into any "dealer USA" with a shoe box full of coins that you want to sell. Inside the shoe box is your entire collection of what you think is rare collectible coins, some raw, some graded. Follow me so far? OK... you open the box and tell the dealer your here to sell, what will you offer me? Which of those coins do you think the dealer is going to gravitate to and pick first? There is going to be a natural attraction to the slabbed coins first choice because most of HIS work is already done by just a spot check of slabs i.e.: as to who slabbed it/is it key or common to that series/do I already have plenty of these in stock, etc....in the buyers mind all sorts of calculations are being made as to what to offer, even sizing you up as a newb/numismatist. For the money collect slabs, for the enjoyment, collect both. You can argue this back and forth til your blue in the face, it will not change the bottom line. This hobby has done a complete turn around from 20 years ago. Now, when it’s time to sell, the seller/buyers want graded coins…tis the sign of the times. Learn to roll along or you will fight a loosing battle pushing this topic up that Numismatic hill.
BTW if you ever get this point pushed to the top of that hill, guess who will be waiting up there, rested and ready to play, bingo, the TPG’s
<< <i>"They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them. Mear SHEEP!" "There are thousands of "sheep" buying slabs and not the coins!" >>
While this may be true, there's really nothing that can be done about it. The reason basically lies in the fact that investors/buyers don't really have the time to learn everything under the sun about grading coins so they rely on a Top Grading Service's opinion. And why not? When enough investors have jumped on the bandwagon to buy and sell, the only decision a TGS or dealer ever needs to make in grading coins or selling; does the coin pass the test of the assigned grade to fool the eager buyer? Those type of buyers rarely lift a loupe to their eyes alone from actually considering the technical grade aspect of the coin. All they have at their hands for reference are the pop and price reports which are available from many sources. Enter the true (the picky) coin collector with several years of collecting experience. What he sees is an artificial behavior among this new breed of collectors and dealers..........remembering the fact; most can't grade coins anyway.............so the exchanges take place at face value due to the pop and price reports! That's all there is to the problem but that problem is only seen from the crowd who is, reluctant to participate or has failed in the process. That's right folks, this may not be the coin hobby we grew up in so don't get yourself all confused or disenchanted with what's occuring. Determining where you stand will help you sleep at nights. I actually like to think that those kind of buyers and dealers will eventually move on to greener pastures especially when they finally learn that there are no buyers for the garbage they once thought was the real thing for profit. I have also learned that I can still collect the coins I want, the way I want and this comes from experience. So I'm not all that dismayed with the frenzy that's taking place. It's not just the dealers and TGS's that are less then genuine with today's coin hobby, I'm also looking at several so called coins collectors. But what can I or anyone else for that matter do about it? Not much but I do like posting pictures and sharing my opinion no matter how factual they may tend to get. How well they are received or by how many, it doesn't really matter as long as I can continue to collect without all the distractions.
As for an antedote, whoever goes to great lengths and into details about coins through accurate detailed pictures and discriptions, those folks make coin collecting fun!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
As for an antedote, whoever goes to great lengths and into details about coins through accurate detailed pictures and discriptions, those folks make coin collecting fun!
I can think of a couple of YN's who are doing that at the present moment...they have been mentored into what Numismatics is all about.
Pretty simple explaination, huh?
It's always been there...one day the fog will lift and we will all be able to see the light!
When you take a $20 uncirculated Silver Eagle from the mint and put it in a slab that says "First Strike" or "20th Anniversary" and it sells for $300, and you can still get the EXACT SAME COIN from the mint for $20, then yes, slabs are the worst thing ever.
I think the original post was very valid and was probably designed to get some debate going, which it sure did.
I think the original post was very valid and was probably designed to get some debate going, which it sure did.
~I was eluding to this stement...
When you take a $20 uncirculated Silver Eagle from the mint and put it in a slab that says "First Strike" or "20th Anniversary" and it sells for $300, and you can still get the EXACT SAME COIN from the mint for $20, then yes, slabs are the worst thing ever.
~This statement was not in the original post, it arose during the couse of thread, so all comments directed at the original post are valid.
SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMISMATICS TO COME OUT!!
A friend recently asked me to help liquidate a collection he amassed in the late 70's and 80's. When he acquired the material he was smart enough to recognize he knew little about numismatics so he found local dealers he believed he could trust. Once those dealers realized he was a serious buyer they brought out their best material - gem gold coins, high grade Walkers with full thumbs, glowing Standing Libs, original rolls, etc. By the time all was said and done, he spent about $50,000 and put the collection in a vault to be opened when it came time to pay his daughters' college tuition. And that time was a few weeks ago.
Most of the gold coins were heavily cleaned and their conditions ranged from XF to AU. The 1917 T1 Standing Lib he bought as a 65 for $1,700 was whizzed. Almost all the walkers were either AU, cleaned or two grade levels below what he paid for them. The "original" rolls contained mostly Unc. coins, but they were far from original. Only one of the hundreds of coins in his collection appeared worth slabbing, and that has gone to NGC with the hope it will come back a 63. All told, he might get $5k-$8k for the coins. He has put them back in the vault and no longer enjoys discussing his coin collection.
Throughout his career he has been a successful and shrewd investor. He built several companies that went public. He graduated from Harvard as a Baker Scholar. But to be had by ostensibly expert, reputable dealers - dealers it turned out were ignorant, unscrupulous, or both – is a personal embarrassment. Don’t ask him to recommend collecting coins as a hobby or investment.
<< <i>In spite of what you say more people have gotten and will get screwed buying raw coins than will ever get screwed buying slabbed coins.. >>
...True words, add Ebay... -> Ever wonder where the "body bags" go? Stay with the big three Slabbers, your grandkids will appreciate it when they retire..
SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMISMATICS TO COME OUT!!
They are not!!!
A lot of posters seem to make this an all or nothing proposition. I am sure there are some buyers that actually "buy" the slab but I would suggest that for most it is not quite that simple.
As stated by a previous poster, I do not have the time, energy or "eye" to become expert in all the nuances of grading and authenticating every coin I wish to purchase. Therefor I rely on PCGS to do the groundwork for me. I know when I buy a PCGS slab that the coin should be authentic and graded "reasonably" because if not, PCGS has shown that they stand behid their slabs.
Now just because I buy a PCGS slab does not also mean that I don't look at the coin as some posters allude to. I would suggest that most buyers actually look at the coin. When I look at the coin, if I am happy with what I see using my limited knowledge and experience and knowing that the PCGS slab offers me excellent protection, I purchase the coin.
To each their own. If one wants to spend a decade learning all the nuances of numismatics before buying a coin of any value, then you are free to do so. However, for me and I am sure many others, I get enjoyment from the purchase of and the assembly of my coin collection. PCGS slabs makes that possible for me to do without getting "excessivley" burned. However, and frankly, in over 200 transactions involving the sale of a PCGS slab I have never "lost" any money. Of course a rising market had a lot to do with that but I would suggest that their were many buyers of raw coins during that same period that cannot say the same.
This does not make my way or some other way of collecting right or wrong, this is just the way I do it that is comfortable and enjoyable for me.
<< <i>SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMASTICS TO COME OUT!!
Slabs are not a substitute for knowledge, but it sure is nice to have a coin that is guaranteed to be authentic and to have an unbiased opinion of a ballpark grade. I would never have been comfortable buying the types of coins that I buy, especially when I was getting started, without them. The major TPGs and their services are not a panacea for the ills of the coin hobby. If you do not like certified coins, by all means, do not buy them, but please do not tell me how to collect coins. >>
<< <i>SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMASTICS TO COME OUT!!
Slabs are not a substitute for knowledge, but it sure is nice to have a coin that is guaranteed to be authentic and to have an unbiased opinion of a ballpark grade. I would never have been comfortable buying the types of coins that I buy, especially when I was getting started, without them. The major TPGs and their services are not a panacea for the ills of the coin hobby. If you do not like certified coins, by all means, do not buy them, but please do not tell me how to collect coins. >>
Same here. >>
So Why does a slab need a number. Why not just Genuine? Its real and it does not have problem, what more do you need? If you cannot tell its MS64 or MS65 why pay for it? An Authenication service would work fine.
<< <i>What is wrong with buying an opinion, similar to getting an appraisal in real estate or in practically every industry/product out there. Those who oppose this right state that all should learn how to grade so they know what they are buying and that anything in a slab is subjective and one is relying only on a graders opinion. Well if i learned how to grade all I end up with is a subjective opinion on my coin by myself. And the person who buys from me would inturn have their own subjective opinion on the same coin. That could be a tough situation, it would be nice to have a disinterested third party to also sujectively grade the coin inorder to mediate the transaction. I believe all already know by now that different graders can come up with different grades on the same coin because it is a subjective opinion. Isn't that how a free market system works, in real estate before you buy or sell one normally hires a real estate expert, agent, attorney or appraiser to appraise the real estate prior to sale or purchase for both the buyer and seller respectively. It seems to work rather well, and everyone knows it is subjective and subject to different values by different appraisers but the free market system says all you need is a wiiling buyer being matched with a willing seller to complete a transaction. One can't be experts in all things there isn't enough time, so we hire experts from different grading companys to help us make our decisions. Some grading companies have better reputations than others. I have no problem relying on the graders behind these organizatons. Case in point I had a 1797 $1 EF45 ICG, I cracked it out and sent it to PCGS one time and it came back XF45 again, only this time in a PCGS slab, system worked. >>
Great you told me you got one coin crossed at the same grade. Now Take 100 and do it. If they all cross then that tells me you know how to grade and slabs only become a plastic case. If less than half cross you need to hit the books. Coins are not an easy hobby. There are other hobbies that require alot less money and time. When you get into coins one should be ready to invest the time, effort and money into making the hobby fun for oneself. The hobby can't be any fun if you are getting taken to the cleaners daily. It becomes fun when you make a nice score, or get a great deal.
When you get into coins one should be ready to invest the time, effort and money into making the hobby fun for oneself.
There is more than one way to have fun with just about anything. If you feel that you need to invest the time, effort and money to make the hobby fun for you, that's fine, just please don't assume that that is a requirement for everyone else to make the hobby enjoyable for them.
It becomes fun when you make a nice score, or get a great deal.
If that is how you derive fun from the hobby, so be it, but again, please don't assume that that is a requirement for everyone else.
Just the fact that so many, soooooo very many slabs are crossing-over and being up-graded (or even down-graded - horrors!!!) speaks VOLUMES about how flawed the entire certification network is. In or out of a slab, BUYER BEWARE.
Jeez guys, its simple do what you want. It shouldn't matter what anyone else does. There are collectors of all sorts of coins at all sorts of grades--some of which I wouldn't spend a second thinking about collecting. If someone wants to collect G graded pennies - good for him. If another person wants to pay up for a slabbed FIRST STRIKE Eagle Series--great. I'm not going to buy their coins, because I don't care about either of those--but the more people interested in collecting in my opinion the better. Their active interest keeps a good support for prices as people's interests within the hobby broadens.
If you get off on cracking out a coin for a potential upgrade--good for you! I haven't, but I'm sure the feeling of satisfaction is exhilarating. If you won't touch a coin that's not graded by some supposed expert (or monkey at some of these grading services for all we know), and that gives you added comfort--enjoy it!
<< <i>When you get into coins one should be ready to invest the time, effort and money into making the hobby fun for oneself.
There is more than one way to have fun with just about anything. If you feel that you need to invest the time, effort and money to make the hobby fun for you, that's fine, just please don't assume that that is a requirement for everyone else to make the hobby enjoyable for them.
It becomes fun when you make a nice score, or get a great deal.
If that is how you derive fun from the hobby, so be it, but again, please don't assume that that is a requirement for everyone else.
Joe. >>
Joe you just keep on enjoying chasing numbers. I will collect coins at a value and feel great about it. Like you said earlier in this thread.... "My Name is Joe and I collect numbers on slabs." Enjoy.
Joe you just keep on enjoying chasing numbers. I will collect coins at a value and feel great about it. Like you said earlier in this thread.... "My Name is Joe and I collect numbers on slabs." Enjoy.
Why do you sound so angry? because I don't collect like you do?
First, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I am "chasing numbers" by anything that I wrote. Even if I was "chasing numbers", if I feel as great about that as you do "collecting coins at a value", who's right and who's wrong? Neither, we are both right for our own reasons.
It is that simple but something is apparently bothering you about people that don't collect as you think they should. I don't think anyone should insult another's collection just because they don't collect that way or they don't like what they are collecting.
I dare anyone to insult my wife's pewter coffee creamer collection.
Jeez guys, its simple do what you want. It shouldn't matter what anyone else does. There are collectors of all sorts of coins at all sorts of grades--some of which I wouldn't spend a second thinking about collecting. If someone wants to collect G graded pennies - good for him. If another person wants to pay up for a slabbed FIRST STRIKE Eagle Series--great. I'm not going to buy their coins, because I don't care about either of those--but the more people interested in collecting in my opinion the better. Their active interest keeps a good support for prices as people's interests within the hobby broadens.
If you get off on cracking out a coin for a potential upgrade--good for you! I haven't, but I'm sure the feeling of satisfaction is exhilarating. If you won't touch a coin that's not graded by some supposed expert (or monkey at some of these grading services for all we know), and that gives you added comfort--enjoy it!
Happy collecting to all of you! >>
This IS, after all, a forum for members to air out their own particular viewpoints, is it not? If all the back and forth here bothers you so very much, I would suggest that you take up building doghouses or some other endeavor that is far less stressful to you. This forum will survive and continue to be a place where all sorts of ideas, attitudes and much learning takes place.
frankieboywonder: No, you're right on that front--this is great for getting others' perspectives. I enjoy the give and take, and especially the colorful commentary. I just kind of bristle at how caustic some of the comments are.
My point is there's plenty of room for all of us in this hobby/business and each can collect exactly the way that pleases them most. If you like grading/cracking/and regrading great! If you wouldn't purchase a graded coin because you don't need some supposed expert to put their stamp on it--fantastic.
<< <i>Joe you just keep on enjoying chasing numbers. I will collect coins at a value and feel great about it. Like you said earlier in this thread.... "My Name is Joe and I collect numbers on slabs." Enjoy.
Why do you sound so angry? because I don't collect like you do?
First, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I am "chasing numbers" by anything that I wrote. Even if I was "chasing numbers", if I feel as great about that as you do "collecting coins at a value", who's right and who's wrong? Neither, we are both right for our own reasons.
It is that simple but something is apparently bothering you about people that don't collect as you think they should. I don't think anyone should insult another's collection just because they don't collect that way or they don't like what they are collecting.
I dare anyone to insult my wife's pewter coffee creamer collection.
Joe. >>
Joe like I said before in the thread. I cannot fault the way you collect, but you would not see me collecting like that. I am not mad at all. The coins and money you spend on them are yours. Collect as you see fit. Enjoy the hobby and thats that. You sure did make it sound like you were chasing numbers earlier in the thread.
<< <i>frankieboywonder: No, you're right on that front--this is great for getting others' perspectives. I enjoy the give and take, and especially the colorful commentary. I just kind of bristle at how caustic some of the comments are.
My point is there's plenty of room for all of us in this hobby/business and each can collect exactly the way that pleases them most. If you like grading/cracking/and regrading great! If you wouldn't purchase a graded coin because you don't need some supposed expert to put their stamp on it--fantastic.
Happy collecting! >>
Well said sir! We both enjoy collecting and wish the same satisfaction for all others, no matter what their interests or viewpoints. Happy Collecting!!
Personally I find the whole premise that coin collecting requires expertise or you shouldn't be allowed to participate to be discriminatory and arrogant. IMO slabs have the opportunity put everyone on a much more level playing field and give many some sense of comfort that their choices are good ones, even if they aren't experts in that particular series. The value I place on collecting has much less to do with the dollars I plan to make and more to do with the enjoyment I derive from the hunt and building a collection that makes me happy.
I must respectfully totally disagree that Slabs are the worst thing in numismatics, snobby elitest attitudes are. When I took my son (7 at the time) to his first coin show it was very eye opening. Some of the dealers treated him as if he didn't belong, and were clearly of the attitude that we should move along so the 'real' customers (presumably those who have invested more time, money, and effort) could come along. Others were great, they talked to him and treated him as if he was important. Which attitude do you think grows the hobby for future years, allowing others the opportunity for their to even be a thriving market to make a 'nice score' in?
<< <i>Personally I find the whole premise that coin collecting requires expertise or you shouldn't be allowed to participate to be discriminatory and arrogant. IMO slabs have the opportunity put everyone on a much more level playing field and give many some sense of comfort that their choices are good ones, even if they aren't experts in that particular series. The value I place on collecting has much less to do with the dollars I plan to make and more to do with the enjoyment I derive from the hunt and building a collection that makes me happy.
I must respectfully totally disagree that Slabs are the worst thing in numismatics, snobby elitest attitudes are. When I took my son (7 at the time) to his first coin show it was very eye opening. Some of the dealers treated him as if he didn't belong, and were clearly of the attitude that we should move along so the 'real' customers (presumably those who have invested more time, money, and effort) could come along. Others were great, they talked to him and treated him as if he was important. Which attitude do you think grows the hobby for future years, allowing others the opportunity for their to even be a thriving market to make a 'nice score' in?
thats my opinion since you asked. >>
Vega I feel your pain. I am a younger one(23 Now) and I have been to many shops and shows where I get a total cold shoulder. I have been collecting for 16 years now and I loved every minute of it. I started out in this hobby with no knowledge of coins at all. I am not saying everybody needs to be an expert, but your hard earned money will go alot further the more knowledge you have. Also you have to remember not everybody will be as lucky as your son and get told which slabs are good and which are not. How many peolpe need to buy SGS slabs and other 3rd world slabs, but it all stops? Mine as well use the coin Vault. At least there you know you will get a decent slab. Sorry to hear the way dealers treated your son, been there myself. Tell him not to give up. One day Hopefully I will be a dealer and first thing will be first! The promotion and growth of the hobby properly.
Comments
<< <i>Your rambling nonsence is made all the worse because you have it all lumped together.
Didn't you have English classes in the school you attended?
Oh, in response, if you don't like slabs just don't buy them.
Ray >>
And you sir, you need to attend finishing school to brush up on your manners.
<< <i>Slabs have done nothing good for the Hobby! They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them. Mear SHEEP!
I recently read an article in one of the coin magazines that said "Some experts have learned to grade". That should not be SOME it should be every last one of us here and all the others collecting coins.
With the introduction of slabs people are buying coins they would have never bought before since they can Trust the TPG's Grading and look up a price via a price guide or Auction Archives. I see people buying all sorts of early proofs and knowing little info on the strinking, aspects or other things about the coin. All they know is they like it and it s a proof, maybe even a toned one. One grade point can make a coin go from $500.00 to $5,000.00 just because of the plastic it is in.
There are thousands of "sheep" buying slabs and not the coins! Now we even have sellers hyping OGH's like the coins should be undergraded and a lock for an upgrade! Why not learn to grade yourself and not worry about whose holder it is in? Take whatever the TPG says cover it up... and if you cannot tell the grade on the coin the don't buy it as you don't know enough to.
Takes us back before the Pre TPG era and coins were bought and sold on merits not what some slab says. I recently took a look at the registry, which in most part is a joke, unless you just want to show off your coins. I like that aspect of it but a set with no Pictures is pointless and a waste, (IMHO).
I can understand people who want the best coins they can afford and to have the greatest sets, which I cannot fault them on but nowadays all you need is money and not knowledge! I have also seen registry sets with coins and photos and there are some coins in the set that are clearly wrongfully graded!
The crackout game is a joke as well, since after all its the same coin no matter what number they put on the holder. Coin grading has got a bit tighter as of late on certain series' but it should not matter how the TPG's are grading at a certain period of time.
Slabs have also been a huge part in ruining many coins original skins, by dipping in hopes of an upgrade. Think of all the early American coins dipped and stripped. Before a slab it would not matter if it got to the next level as a dealer could sell the coins on its merits with the original skin on it. Dipped out coins suck.
If you want to argue the fact that Slabs have made coin buyer safer... thats Nonsense! You can still get a lot of crap in slabs and not only the lesser slabs! Just take a look at Ebay and see all the coins being sold outside of slabs that have problems! Slabbing has not stopped the problem coins from being sold to unsuspecting buyers, the majority of which do not know any better.
You say slabs offer a good protection and keep coins from getting hurt? It seems a great many coins survived many years without slabs. All slabs have done is made us less carefull when holding coins. If you drop a slab its ok since it is a plastic, unless it a new ANACS slab, then it might crack.
Now take away the slab and I bet you are much more careful with the coin. If someone would be kind enough to tell one good thing that has come out of a slab infested coin market please let me know. Until then, read books, learn to grade and know what you buy before you waste your hard earned money. Thanks and debate away!
Thanks Boom! >>
<< <i>Slabs have their place in the hobby and are here for the long term. They came into being for a reason. While some people yearn for a return to the old days, it is not happening. One consideration as everyone is always saying, "learn to grade". How do you bring more people into the hobby if you need to be an expert grader of raw coins. I know it has taken me years as a hobbyist to learn one series such that I would buy a raw coin.
Getting burned over raw coins (and I was also many years ago) kept me OUT of the hobby for a long time. I am now back in and if I want to buy a coin for my type set that is out of my expertise (indian gold for example) and I want to make sure it is not a fake, I buy a slabbed coin.
It comes down to this, the more information an individual has regarding an item, the better off he is. Let's also remember that not all slabs are created equally. For myself, I regard certain slabs as problem raw coins, especially if they are four figure and up coins.
At worst a slab from PCGS gives an intelligent opinion regarding the coin. EVERYONE is free to agree or disagree with that opinion and if you like your coins raw you are free to liberate the coin and enjoy it that way.
One final thought (probably expressed elseswhere but I did not read the entire thread). This is the wrong place to bash slabbing in terms of it being the worst thing to happen to numismatics. Remember who is PAYING for your ability to express and opinion and the reason most folks post here. PCGS is the market leader and using their forum to tell them to get out of business makes no sense, yet they continue to allow you to bash them. Speaks WELL of PCGS in my mind. They have a FAR more open mind than you do. >>
I respect what you have to say. However, while I have a choice to disagree, I do not have much of a choice anymore as far as realistic values. Why? Well, hey, thats a slabbed coin.
IF you are dropping big money on a coin, and you have no idea if its real, WTF are you doing?!?!?!?!?
Look at jewelry, ever see the person who gets a non certified diamond on a ring and WHAM, cubic zirc sure is pretty. Too bad you dropped 5 grand on a 100 dollar pos.
Authenticity and grade are 2 seperate issues. Slabbing has melded them into one thing which will NOT do anyone any favors. In fact, it will just feed the fire of over valuing coins.....IMO.
It doesn't matter what any individual says or feels about any given sector--the hobby/business is large enough to sustain all our interests.
This doesn't seem like anything to get upset about. If you don't like those crooked slabs--crack them out!
Happy collecting!
<< <i>Boy, what a lot of fun this hobby is-- the great thing about it is you can collect what you want, and how you want to.
It doesn't matter what any individual says or feels about any given sector--the hobby/business is large enough to sustain all our interests.
This doesn't seem like anything to get upset about. If you don't like those crooked slabs--crack them out!
Happy collecting! >>
Once the damge is done the slab is a mute point. How many people need to buy SGS Slabs at high prices before something is done?
If you see a PCGS MS66 coin that you think is overgraded, dont buy it. WE set the market with our dollars. The cure for an overgraded coin is to vote with your dollars. Buy the coin not the holder as they say. All the plastic contains is the opinion of one to three people, depending upon the service the holders are valued differently in the marketplace.
There are overgraded and undergraded coins in all holders, no one ever said the grade is absolute. A PQ coin is a PQ coin. Consider slabs insurance some of us choose to pay. I owned coins when the dealers would always beat you the grade by 3 or 4 points. Now we just talk price. And of course there is rhetoric on both sides, but the collector can always keep his hands and his money in his pocket. A realistic value is one that the buyers put on a coin. Not a single buyer, but the collection of individuals who would desire the coin.
I fail to see how they have damaged the marketplace for the collector. For better or worse, there are modern coins in high grades that some people CHOOSE to collect. If you think they are just shiny pocket change, then dont buy them, but there is no reason for anyone to slam them for choices you vote with your dollars not to buy.
<< <i>The Moderns vs the classics are 2 different case. Take for instance the 2003 Cent that was graded MS 70. While it may a stunning coin in hand crack it out of the holder and see what you got. I bet I could put 100 coins 2003 Lincoln cents all of them 99 MS69's and the MS70 cover the labels up and you cou not pick out the coin. Why pay for something you cannot see. This is not a slam on that coin in particular, but any coin at any level. >>
I tend to agree in general with what you are saying.
Take a bag of 1000 unc morgans and dump them on the table.
Put them in order from MS60 on up and draw lines betrween where the 60's end and the 61's begin, and so on to the end.
No experts would end up with the same order or even close IMO.
OTOH, slabs protect coins from owners that would surely have ruined or detracted from some important coins. ie those coins that an owner would not crack out but might not otherwise properly care for the coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>The Moderns vs the classics are 2 different case. Take for instance the 2003 Cent that was graded MS 70. While it may a stunning coin in hand crack it out of the holder and see what you got. I bet I could put 100 coins 2003 Lincoln cents all of them 99 MS69's and the MS70 cover the labels up and you cou not pick out the coin. Why pay for something you cannot see. This is not a slam on that coin in particular, but any coin at any level. >>
I tend to agree in general with what you are saying.
Take a bag of 1000 unc morgans and dump them on the table.
Put them in order from MS60 on up and draw lines betrween where the 60's end and the 61's begin, and so on to the end.
No experts would end up with the same order or even close IMO.
OTOH, slabs protect coins from owners that would surely have ruined or detracted from some important coins. ie those coins that an owner would not crack out but might not otherwise properly care for the coins. >>
Coincs made it along fine before slabs for many years. All slabs do is make the owners less carefull.
<< <i>This has to be one of the worst posts I've read on these boards in years. >>
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I agree it's a bit of a"red herring" arguement, but he does raise some points I really hadn't thought through: clearly!
Here are some examples of what I mean: while a slab' grade is very important to many collectors--they have sometimes really been :the best thing to come out"!!!! for raw type coin guys. Examples?
1) I have a wonderful type group of :key or uncommon coins that without the slab worshippers, I'd never afford---These are almost all nice honest clean coins--
things like an F2 1794 half, 1932D Washington in F-2, a lovely colored, natural AG3 1889 CC morgan, quite a few old coppers with dark un-corroded surfaces,--except one stupid mistake
an 1789 MS66 Gold cion from Nepal no one seemed to want but NGC, loved before I cracked it out to show the luste, A very very rare1888- S Morgan in MS65DMPL EXCEPT it has two scratchs and therefore is worth $80 or so--- instead of $9,500 in perfect condition---Lastly a host of toned morgans that re cleasrly NT bag toned, but I guess everyone is afriad of them now!! bUT how much can you lose on an A+ MS66 blue'red Morgan for $450???!!! I even buy Franklins and Roosies that are monster looking but "jusy miss the FL designaton! .. Guess I jut like pretty cons and love plastic collectors!!!!!!
HEY I respect registry slab llections--just as long as you don'r see it as an "investment"--slabsar good for testing authenticity that a purhase is the real deal.!!
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
When you take a $20 uncirculated Silver Eagle from the mint and put it in a slab that says "First Strike" or "20th Anniversary" and it sells for $300, and you can still get the EXACT SAME COIN from the mint for $20, then yes, slabs are the worst thing ever.
However, when you take a guy like me who decides one day to buy a 1908 Motto and a 1908 No Motto Saint Gaudens, and I know NOTHING about Saint Gaudens, that slab from PCGS, tells me at least I'm getting a real coin in a fairly accurate certain condition. Then that slab becomes the greatest thing ever.
I think the original post was very valid and was probably designed to get some debate going, which it sure did.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
I do buy a lot of unslabbed Gold coins but I will eventually send them in for grading!
When it comes time to sell, there won't be any dought in anyones mind what the coin is and the condition, Maybe I can get more when they sell! Only one collectors opinion!
Antique Soda Bottles And Antique Soda Related
Advertising, and many other collectables!
Life is too short, I might as well buy Gold while I'm still around!
<< <i>I like to buy my Gold coins in slabs, first to protect them also they are graded so I really know what I am buying! I do buy the Coin and not the slab!
I do buy a lot of unslabbed Gold coins but I will eventually send them in for grading!
When it comes time to sell, there won't be any dought in anyones mind what the coin is and the condition, Maybe I can get more when they sell! Only one collectors opinion!
The one mistake you make is no matter if the coin is raw or slabbed grading is subjective. There will always be someone who doubts the grade you give a coin or the grade on a slab. Sheep buy slabs, meaning people who can't grade or do not care to learn to grade a specific coin. Therefore slabs bring a higher price alot of the time for internet and sight unseen purchases. Thats not to say all people who buy slabs are sheep, but quite a few are. The collector base who knows how to grade with consistancy is not nowhere near as big as it should be. Just my thoughts.
Are they always 100% correct? No!
But at least a lot of the ugliness of making a coin deal which seems to be akin to litigation can be avoided.
And maybe there will be one less person on your "I'd rather not have to interact with them again list"
scenario: You walk into any "dealer USA" with a shoe box full of coins that you want to sell. Inside the shoe box is your entire collection of what you think is rare collectible coins, some raw, some graded. Follow me so far? OK... you open the box and tell the dealer your here to sell, what will you offer me? Which of those coins do you think the dealer is going to gravitate to and pick first? There is going to be a natural attraction to the slabbed coins first choice because most of HIS work is already done by just a spot check of slabs i.e.: as to who slabbed it/is it key or common to that series/do I already have plenty of these in stock, etc....in the buyers mind all sorts of calculations are being made as to what to offer, even sizing you up as a newb/numismatist. For the money collect slabs, for the enjoyment, collect both. You can argue this back and forth til your blue in the face, it will not change the bottom line. This hobby has done a complete turn around from 20 years ago. Now, when it’s time to sell, the seller/buyers want graded coins…tis the sign of the times. Learn to roll along or you will fight a loosing battle pushing this topic up that Numismatic hill.
BTW if you ever get this point pushed to the top of that hill, guess who will be waiting up there, rested and ready to play, bingo, the TPG’s
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>"They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them. Mear SHEEP!"
"There are thousands of "sheep" buying slabs and not the coins!" >>
While this may be true, there's really nothing that can be done about it. The reason basically lies in the fact that investors/buyers don't really have the time to learn everything under the sun about grading coins so they rely on a Top Grading Service's opinion. And why not? When enough investors have jumped on the bandwagon to buy and sell, the only decision a TGS or dealer ever needs to make in grading coins or selling; does the coin pass the test of the assigned grade to fool the eager buyer? Those type of buyers rarely lift a loupe to their eyes alone from actually considering the technical grade aspect of the coin. All they have at their hands for reference are the pop and price reports which are available from many sources.
Enter the true (the picky) coin collector with several years of collecting experience. What he sees is an artificial behavior among this new breed of collectors and dealers..........remembering the fact; most can't grade coins anyway.............so the exchanges take place at face value due to the pop and price reports! That's all there is to the problem but that problem is only seen from the crowd who is, reluctant to participate or has failed in the process. That's right folks, this may not be the coin hobby we grew up in so don't get yourself all confused or disenchanted with what's occuring. Determining where you stand will help you sleep at nights.
It's not just the dealers and TGS's that are less then genuine with today's coin hobby, I'm also looking at several so called coins collectors. But what can I or anyone else for that matter do about it? Not much but I do like posting pictures and sharing my opinion no matter how factual they may tend to get. How well they are received or by how many, it doesn't really matter as long as I can continue to collect without all the distractions.
As for an antedote, whoever goes to great lengths and into details about coins through accurate detailed pictures and discriptions, those folks make coin collecting fun!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I can think of a couple of YN's who are doing that at the present moment...they have been mentored into what Numismatics is all about.
Pretty simple explaination, huh?
It's always been there...one day the fog will lift and we will all be able to see the light!
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I think the original post was very valid and was probably designed to get some debate going, which it sure did.
~I was eluding to this stement...
When you take a $20 uncirculated Silver Eagle from the mint and put it in a slab that says "First Strike" or "20th Anniversary" and it sells for $300, and you can still get the EXACT SAME COIN from the mint for $20, then yes, slabs are the worst thing ever.
~This statement was not in the original post, it arose during the couse of thread, so all comments directed at the original post are valid.
SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMISMATICS TO COME OUT!!
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
A friend recently asked me to help liquidate a collection he amassed in the late 70's and 80's. When he acquired the material he was smart enough to recognize he knew little about numismatics so he found local dealers he believed he could trust. Once those dealers realized he was a serious buyer they brought out their best material - gem gold coins, high grade Walkers with full thumbs, glowing Standing Libs, original rolls, etc. By the time all was said and done, he spent about $50,000 and put the collection in a vault to be opened when it came time to pay his daughters' college tuition. And that time was a few weeks ago.
Most of the gold coins were heavily cleaned and their conditions ranged from XF to AU. The 1917 T1 Standing Lib he bought as a 65 for $1,700 was whizzed. Almost all the walkers were either AU, cleaned or two grade levels below what he paid for them. The "original" rolls contained mostly Unc. coins, but they were far from original. Only one of the hundreds of coins in his collection appeared worth slabbing, and that has gone to NGC with the hope it will come back a 63. All told, he might get $5k-$8k for the coins. He has put them back in the vault and no longer enjoys discussing his coin collection.
Throughout his career he has been a successful and shrewd investor. He built several companies that went public. He graduated from Harvard as a Baker Scholar. But to be had by ostensibly expert, reputable dealers - dealers it turned out were ignorant, unscrupulous, or both – is a personal embarrassment. Don’t ask him to recommend collecting coins as a hobby or investment.
That's why.
GForce
and that is 10 years of experience with a good eye a good magniyfying glass looking at many coins beforte you ever plunge into buying big ticket items
<< <i>In spite of what you say more people have gotten and will get screwed
buying raw coins than will ever get screwed buying slabbed coins.. >>
...True words, add Ebay... -> Ever wonder where the "body bags" go?
Stay with the big three Slabbers, your grandkids will appreciate it when they retire..
-Ron
They are not!!!
A lot of posters seem to make this an all or nothing proposition. I am sure there are some buyers that actually "buy" the slab but I would suggest that for most it is not quite that simple.
As stated by a previous poster, I do not have the time, energy or "eye" to become expert in all the nuances of grading and authenticating every coin I wish to purchase. Therefor I rely on PCGS to do the groundwork for me. I know when I buy a PCGS slab that the coin should be authentic and graded "reasonably" because if not, PCGS has shown that they stand behid their slabs.
Now just because I buy a PCGS slab does not also mean that I don't look at the coin as some posters allude to. I would suggest that most buyers actually look at the coin. When I look at the coin, if I am happy with what I see using my limited knowledge and experience and knowing that the PCGS slab offers me excellent protection, I purchase the coin.
To each their own. If one wants to spend a decade learning all the nuances of numismatics before buying a coin of any value, then you are free to do so. However, for me and I am sure many others, I get enjoyment from the purchase of and the assembly of my coin collection. PCGS slabs makes that possible for me to do without getting "excessivley" burned. However, and frankly, in over 200 transactions involving the sale of a PCGS slab I have never "lost" any money. Of course a rising market had a lot to do with that but I would suggest that their were many buyers of raw coins during that same period that cannot say the same.
This does not make my way or some other way of collecting right or wrong, this is just the way I do it that is comfortable and enjoyable for me.
Joe.
Edit: context
K S
<< <i>SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMASTICS TO COME OUT!!
Slabs are not a substitute for knowledge, but it sure is nice to have a coin that is guaranteed to be authentic and to have an unbiased opinion of a ballpark grade. I would never have been comfortable buying the types of coins that I buy, especially when I was getting started, without them. The major TPGs and their services are not a panacea for the ills of the coin hobby. If you do not like certified coins, by all means, do not buy them, but please do not tell me how to collect coins. >>
Same here.
<< <i>
<< <i>SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMASTICS TO COME OUT!!
Slabs are not a substitute for knowledge, but it sure is nice to have a coin that is guaranteed to be authentic and to have an unbiased opinion of a ballpark grade. I would never have been comfortable buying the types of coins that I buy, especially when I was getting started, without them. The major TPGs and their services are not a panacea for the ills of the coin hobby. If you do not like certified coins, by all means, do not buy them, but please do not tell me how to collect coins. >>
Same here. >>
So Why does a slab need a number. Why not just Genuine? Its real and it does not have problem, what more do you need? If you cannot tell its MS64 or MS65 why pay for it? An Authenication service would work fine.
<< <i>What is wrong with buying an opinion, similar to getting an appraisal in real estate or in practically every industry/product out there. Those who oppose this right state that all should learn how to grade so they know what they are buying and that anything in a slab is subjective and one is relying only on a graders opinion. Well if i learned how to grade all I end up with is a subjective opinion on my coin by myself. And the person who buys from me would inturn have their own subjective opinion on the same coin. That could be a tough situation, it would be nice to have a disinterested third party to also sujectively grade the coin inorder to mediate the transaction. I believe all already know by now that different graders can come up with different grades on the same coin because it is a subjective opinion. Isn't that how a free market system works, in real estate before you buy or sell one normally hires a real estate expert, agent, attorney or appraiser to appraise the real estate prior to sale or purchase for both the buyer and seller respectively. It seems to work rather well, and everyone knows it is subjective and subject to different values by different appraisers but the free market system says all you need is a wiiling buyer being matched with a willing seller to complete a transaction. One can't be experts in all things there isn't enough time, so we hire experts from different grading companys to help us make our decisions. Some grading companies have better reputations than others. I have no problem relying on the graders behind these organizatons. Case in point I had a 1797 $1 EF45 ICG, I cracked it out and sent it to PCGS one time and it came back XF45 again, only this time in a PCGS slab, system worked. >>
Great you told me you got one coin crossed at the same grade. Now Take 100 and do it. If they all cross then that tells me you know how to grade and slabs only become a plastic case. If less than half cross you need to hit the books. Coins are not an easy hobby. There are other hobbies that require alot less money and time. When you get into coins one should be ready to invest the time, effort and money into making the hobby fun for oneself. The hobby can't be any fun if you are getting taken to the cleaners daily. It becomes fun when you make a nice score, or get a great deal.
There is more than one way to have fun with just about anything. If you feel that you need to invest the time, effort and money to make the hobby fun for you, that's fine, just please don't assume that that is a requirement for everyone else to make the hobby enjoyable for them.
It becomes fun when you make a nice score, or get a great deal.
If that is how you derive fun from the hobby, so be it, but again, please don't assume that that is a requirement for everyone else.
Joe.
Your point is?
Just the fact that so many, soooooo very many slabs are crossing-over and being up-graded (or even down-graded - horrors!!!) speaks VOLUMES about how flawed the entire certification network is. In or out of a slab, BUYER BEWARE.
Jeez guys, its simple do what you want. It shouldn't matter what anyone else does. There are collectors of all sorts of coins at all sorts of grades--some of which I wouldn't spend a second thinking about collecting. If someone wants to collect G graded pennies - good for him. If another person wants to pay up for a slabbed FIRST STRIKE Eagle Series--great. I'm not going to buy their coins, because I don't care about either of those--but the more people interested in collecting in my opinion the better. Their active interest keeps a good support for prices as people's interests within the hobby broadens.
If you get off on cracking out a coin for a potential upgrade--good for you! I haven't, but I'm sure the feeling of satisfaction is exhilarating. If you won't touch a coin that's not graded by some supposed expert (or monkey at some of these grading services for all we know), and that gives you added comfort--enjoy it!
Happy collecting to all of you!
<< <i>When you get into coins one should be ready to invest the time, effort and money into making the hobby fun for oneself.
There is more than one way to have fun with just about anything. If you feel that you need to invest the time, effort and money to make the hobby fun for you, that's fine, just please don't assume that that is a requirement for everyone else to make the hobby enjoyable for them.
It becomes fun when you make a nice score, or get a great deal.
If that is how you derive fun from the hobby, so be it, but again, please don't assume that that is a requirement for everyone else.
Joe. >>
Joe you just keep on enjoying chasing numbers. I will collect coins at a value and feel great about it. Like you said earlier in this thread.... "My Name is Joe and I collect numbers on slabs." Enjoy.
Why do you sound so angry? because I don't collect like you do?
First, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I am "chasing numbers" by anything that I wrote. Even if I was "chasing numbers", if I feel as great about that as you do "collecting coins at a value", who's right and who's wrong? Neither, we are both right for our own reasons.
It is that simple but something is apparently bothering you about people that don't collect as you think they should. I don't think anyone should insult another's collection just because they don't collect that way or they don't like what they are collecting.
I dare anyone to insult my wife's pewter coffee creamer collection.
Joe.
<< <i>BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH---
Jeez guys, its simple do what you want. It shouldn't matter what anyone else does. There are collectors of all sorts of coins at all sorts of grades--some of which I wouldn't spend a second thinking about collecting. If someone wants to collect G graded pennies - good for him. If another person wants to pay up for a slabbed FIRST STRIKE Eagle Series--great. I'm not going to buy their coins, because I don't care about either of those--but the more people interested in collecting in my opinion the better. Their active interest keeps a good support for prices as people's interests within the hobby broadens.
If you get off on cracking out a coin for a potential upgrade--good for you! I haven't, but I'm sure the feeling of satisfaction is exhilarating. If you won't touch a coin that's not graded by some supposed expert (or monkey at some of these grading services for all we know), and that gives you added comfort--enjoy it!
Happy collecting to all of you! >>
This IS, after all, a forum for members to air out their own particular viewpoints, is it not? If all the back and forth here bothers you so very much, I would suggest that you take up building doghouses or some other endeavor that is far less stressful to you. This forum will survive and continue to be a place where all sorts of ideas, attitudes and much learning takes place.
My point is there's plenty of room for all of us in this hobby/business and each can collect exactly the way that pleases them most. If you like grading/cracking/and regrading great! If you wouldn't purchase a graded coin because you don't need some supposed expert to put their stamp on it--fantastic.
Happy collecting!
<< <i>Joe you just keep on enjoying chasing numbers. I will collect coins at a value and feel great about it. Like you said earlier in this thread.... "My Name is Joe and I collect numbers on slabs." Enjoy.
Why do you sound so angry? because I don't collect like you do?
First, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I am "chasing numbers" by anything that I wrote. Even if I was "chasing numbers", if I feel as great about that as you do "collecting coins at a value", who's right and who's wrong? Neither, we are both right for our own reasons.
It is that simple but something is apparently bothering you about people that don't collect as you think they should. I don't think anyone should insult another's collection just because they don't collect that way or they don't like what they are collecting.
I dare anyone to insult my wife's pewter coffee creamer collection.
Joe. >>
Joe like I said before in the thread. I cannot fault the way you collect, but you would not see me collecting like that. I am not mad at all. The coins and money you spend on them are yours. Collect as you see fit. Enjoy the hobby and thats that. You sure did make it sound like you were chasing numbers earlier in the thread.
<< <i>frankieboywonder: No, you're right on that front--this is great for getting others' perspectives. I enjoy the give and take, and especially the colorful commentary. I just kind of bristle at how caustic some of the comments are.
My point is there's plenty of room for all of us in this hobby/business and each can collect exactly the way that pleases them most. If you like grading/cracking/and regrading great! If you wouldn't purchase a graded coin because you don't need some supposed expert to put their stamp on it--fantastic.
Happy collecting! >>
Well said sir! We both enjoy collecting and wish the same satisfaction for all others, no matter what their interests or viewpoints. Happy Collecting!!
I must respectfully totally disagree that Slabs are the worst thing in numismatics, snobby elitest attitudes are. When I took my son (7 at the time) to his first coin show it was very eye opening. Some of the dealers treated him as if he didn't belong, and were clearly of the attitude that we should move along so the 'real' customers (presumably those who have invested more time, money, and effort) could come along. Others were great, they talked to him and treated him as if he was important. Which attitude do you think grows the hobby for future years, allowing others the opportunity for their to even be a thriving market to make a 'nice score' in?
thats my opinion since you asked.
<< <i>Personally I find the whole premise that coin collecting requires expertise or you shouldn't be allowed to participate to be discriminatory and arrogant. IMO slabs have the opportunity put everyone on a much more level playing field and give many some sense of comfort that their choices are good ones, even if they aren't experts in that particular series. The value I place on collecting has much less to do with the dollars I plan to make and more to do with the enjoyment I derive from the hunt and building a collection that makes me happy.
I must respectfully totally disagree that Slabs are the worst thing in numismatics, snobby elitest attitudes are. When I took my son (7 at the time) to his first coin show it was very eye opening. Some of the dealers treated him as if he didn't belong, and were clearly of the attitude that we should move along so the 'real' customers (presumably those who have invested more time, money, and effort) could come along. Others were great, they talked to him and treated him as if he was important. Which attitude do you think grows the hobby for future years, allowing others the opportunity for their to even be a thriving market to make a 'nice score' in?
thats my opinion since you asked. >>
Vega I feel your pain. I am a younger one(23 Now) and I have been to many shops and shows where I get a total cold shoulder. I have been collecting for 16 years now and I loved every minute of it. I started out in this hobby with no knowledge of coins at all. I am not saying everybody needs to be an expert, but your hard earned money will go alot further the more knowledge you have. Also you have to remember not everybody will be as lucky as your son and get told which slabs are good and which are not. How many peolpe need to buy SGS slabs and other 3rd world slabs, but it all stops? Mine as well use the coin Vault. At least there you know you will get a decent slab. Sorry to hear the way dealers treated your son, been there myself. Tell him not to give up. One day Hopefully I will be a dealer and first thing will be first! The promotion and growth of the hobby properly.
1. A coin
2. A collector
3. An interest
Mix those 3 in a bowl and you've got a coin collector. While other things may be nice, nothing else is really needed.