do you think pcgs and cu has any regard for numismatics and the hobby itself?

classiccoin · October 24, 2006 9:12AM

or is their only interest in numismatics is to bag as much cash with as many submissions and resubmissions as possible.. hard to believe theu have any true interest in the hobby when they holder bullion coins and assist to further the craze in slabbed brand new coins from the mint rather then telling people they are all virtually flawless coins and are are quite pointless to remove from the mints packaging and have graded.. and registry sets for proof state quarters is silly beyond belief if you ask me

DickyBetz · October 24, 2006 9:13AM

I agree.

Cladiator · October 24, 2006 9:14AM

start the countdown. **poof**

DickyBetz · October 24, 2006 9:14AM

I dont agree that pcgs has no regard for numismatics. They definitely do.

Russ · October 24, 2006 9:14AM

I think they are interested in both the hobby and generating a profit.

Russ, NCNE

ziggy29 · October 24, 2006 9:17AM

I'll speak not of PCGS in particular here but of the top-tier TPGs in general.

Initially I think so to a degree, but as more of the coins that should be slabbed were slabbed (assuming you think any should), as a money-making business they had to do other forms of marketing and (arguably) change standards to encourage resubmissions. Registry sets. Gimmicky designations on the label. Cut-rate submission fees for moderns.

Personally I'd love to see them stick to authentication and attribution, and arguably to kick out horribly doggy, problematic coins. I'd prefer to see them out of the grading business. As if that would ever happen.

So yes, I do think they care about the future of numismatics as their future is dependent on it -- but it feels more and more like financial concerns dominate thinking more than stewardship of the hobby.

TwoSides2aCoin · October 24, 2006 9:18AM

Leiana · October 24, 2006 9:22AM

Of course PCGS has a regard for Numismatists and the hobby. TPGs were born out of the idea of protecting people from less than stellar (or less than genuine

) coins, and I think that's a very important service. I collect raw coins because I am (usually) comfortable in grading them for myself. But oft-forged coins or really expensive coins I would NEVER buy raw.

PCGS provides these forums for like minded individuals to commiserate. PCGS has recently taken over coinfacts.com, one of the more informative sites on the web for looking up a quick fact or two. Also, PCGS's Lingo section is very awesome.

The PCGS site has a lot of great articles, too.

As a business, profit surely is important, but to say that PCGS has no regards for Numismatics is off-base, in my opinion.

-Amanda

Hyperion · October 24, 2006 9:25AM

easy, they're here to promote the hobby which dovetails nicely to making a nice profit in said hobby.

the only thing that confuses me is if they ever promote something which fosters confusion in the marketplace, Im not sure if "First Strike" labelling goes toward this. but I think that's .0000000004% of the total of all the services they provide.

classiccoin · October 24, 2006 9:26AM

people can say what they will.. but when a 2003 cent sells for over ten thousand dollars just because its in a corporate piece of plastic that says its perfect.. that is marketing gone wild and nothing to do with numismatics or any regard for the hobby

ABC123 · October 24, 2006 9:27AM

"All virtually Flawless" is not "Flawless" and certainly not pointless----more like a point more, 69 to 70 ! Viva la Difference !!!!

GullibleNewb · October 24, 2006 9:27AM

<< and registry sets for proof state quarters is silly beyond belief if you ask me >>

To each their own. It isn't for me, but then again I collect butterflies.

Leiana · October 24, 2006 9:28AM

<< people can say what they will.. but when a 2003 cent sells for over ten thousand dollars just because its in a corporate piece of plastic that says its perfect.. that is marketing gone wild and nothing to do with numismatics or any regard for the hobby >>

PCGS did not sell that coin. PCGS did not make the market for that coin. All they did was offer their opinion of the grade of the coin.

Your arguement makes no sense, really.

-Amanda

ziggy29 · October 24, 2006 9:29AM

<< PCGS did not sell that coin. PCGS did not make the market for that coin. >>

Actually, by creating "registry sets," to at least some degree I think they did.

robertpr · October 24, 2006 9:29AM

Also, PCGS's Lingo section is very awesome.

Hmm, I can't find "first strike". Anyone?

cladking · October 24, 2006 9:31AM

This isn't a tough concept. People send them old gold they hire someone who knows old gold
so they can slab it. People send them bullion coins and they hire people who know bullion coins.
If people wanted their old Shell Oil Mr President game tokens graded then that would be next.

They can't create demand. They respond to it. They opened up shop and invited people to send
coins and now they just learn to grade whatever the market wants.

Leiana · October 24, 2006 9:31AM

<< 

<< PCGS did not sell that coin. PCGS did not make the market for that coin. >>

Actually, by creating "registry sets," to at least some degree I think they did. >>

Perhaps, but it is the collectors who made 'Registry Fever' what it is. PCGS provides the service, but collectors make it what it is.

-Amanda

1921obsession · October 24, 2006 9:36AM

I don't see how "altruistic support of numismatics" and "making a profit from a subsector of numismatics" necessarily have to be mutually exclusive terms.

cladking · October 24, 2006 9:36AM

<< people can say what they will.. but when a 2003 cent sells for over ten thousand dollars just because its in a corporate piece of plastic that says its perfect.. that is marketing gone wild and nothing to do with numismatics or any regard for the hobby >>

Maybe if you had bid on it then it would have gone for far less. Sure, they'd all see you drop out at 2c and come to their senses and you would have been the greatest fool.

I think that's the way it works.

MarineEAS1999 · October 24, 2006 9:37AM

The First Strike designation says a lot about what PCGS thinks of the hobby...

They know it isn't true, but they do it anyway.

It is dishonest and they profit from it; so do those who sell them.

A 70 is a 70...is a 70. "First Strike" or not.

FatMan · October 24, 2006 9:38AM

The TPGs have lost a ton of credibility with the First Strike crap. 'nough said.

mgoodm3 · October 24, 2006 9:40AM

You're just pissed that you didn't think of it first.

Aegis3 · October 24, 2006 9:42AM

<< Of course PCGS has a regard for Numismatists and the hobby. TPGs were born out of the idea of protecting people from less than stellar (or less than genuine

) coins, and I think that's a very important service. I collect raw coins because I am (usually) comfortable in grading them for myself. But oft-forged coins or really expensive coins I would NEVER buy raw. >>

This doesn't sound quite accurate. I recall the early ads for PCGS were based on "The Grading Problem had been Solved!" The authenticity issue had already been dealt with with the old ANACS. What PCGS did was introduce slabs to the mainstream (a certain company which does not need to be mentioned had them earlier) and hope that a tamper proof slab with grade would allow coins to be treated as mere commodities, the originators being interested mainly in "investment grade" material. If authenticity issues were their concern, why not start off the bat and deal with a much wider range of numismatic items, including those not considered "investments" but would be very helpful to be authenticated, such as Indian Peace medals, ancients, encased postage stamps, &c? Further, just how much is authenticity a concern with the vast majority of MS-65 Morgan dollars? Be wary of the kool-aid drinkers Amanda, they might try to turn you into one of them.

<< PCGS provides these forums for like minded individuals to commiserate. PCGS has recently taken over coinfacts.com, one of the more informative sites on the web for looking up a quick fact or two. Also, PCGS's Lingo section is very awesome. >>

The question I think may deal with PCGS the business vs. the assorted people employed by PCGS. Certainly in the second category there are those which most definately deserve the title of numismatist. Ron Guth and John Dannreuther just for two quick examples. Just how much PCGS the business is concerned with numismatics is a whole different question. And I would like to see updates to the coinfacts site. Has there been any since at least 2003? And can we have at least a new home page image? That 1863 Indian is getting rather stale; it's been up there since June 2004!

coinkat · October 24, 2006 9:42AM

PCGS is concerned about the hobby... third party grading is very helpful for everyone. I still believe that collectors and dealers need to recognize that grading is an evolutionary process and we still have a ways to go before grading is where it needs to be. PCGS could be more pro active in moving the process forward.

Hyperion · October 24, 2006 9:43AM

<< 

<< 

<< PCGS did not sell that coin. PCGS did not make the market for that coin. >>

Actually, by creating "registry sets," to at least some degree I think they did. >>

Perhaps, but it is the collectors who made 'Registry Fever' what it is. PCGS provides the service, but collectors make it what it is.

-Amanda >>

this point is really perplexing me. who really cares that they're appealling to the competitive nature of the collector? they're not forcing people to have registry sets. this is a toughie, Im befuddled. myself ? who cares about registries. the finest collections and coins in the world are behind closed doors in the hands of the ultra rich who could care less about showing off. you'll never see those posted anyplace, not to say that there aren't dam fine coins in the registry...

hmmm

Aegis3 · October 24, 2006 9:46AM

<< Also, PCGS's Lingo section is very awesome.

Hmm, I can't find "first strike". Anyone?

>>

Actually, they've since put up their corporate-speak definition of it. Thankfully they haven't purged the more accurate version yet fully from a de-linked page on their web site.

Leiana · October 24, 2006 9:46AM

<< Be wary of the kool-aid drinkers Amanda, they might try to turn you into one of them. >>

You make some good points.

-Amanda

MikeKing · October 24, 2006 9:49AM

I certainly think they have regard for numismatics. I believe that is their primary concern. There is no denying they wish to make money, but I think a component of that is they wish to make money based on being the best. I'm not saying they're the best, just that I believe they do try. I think PCGS, NGC and ANACS are all trying.

1921obsession · October 24, 2006 9:51AM

Maybe it's just me, but I'm hearing a lot of people here doing the equivalent of blaming Anheuser-Busch for alcoholism.

cladking · October 24, 2006 9:54AM

<< Maybe it's just me, but I'm hearing a lot of people here doing the equivalent of blaming Anheuser-Busch for alcoholism. >>

And cans for holding beer.

tradedollarnut · October 24, 2006 9:55AM

<< 

<< and registry sets for proof state quarters is silly beyond belief if you ask me >>

To each their own. It isn't for me, but then again I collect butterflies. >>

MikeKing · October 24, 2006 9:56AM

Actually I wrote this response before reading Aegis' response which has historic truth in it...I believe. So he makes a very good point.

As far as the Registry set thing; I think they did it to stimulate competition among collectors and affect the coin market, but what do I know. It just seems logical to me. However, not all collectors are into competition, certainly I'm not, but I use the registry. I think the Registry is a good opportunity to consolidate your findings, log your coins, and share coins and information. Fortunately NGC broadened their horizons by allowing both NGC and PCGS coins in their registries and also by allowing collectors to create their own 'Signature' sets.

mrearlygold · October 24, 2006 9:57AM

David Hall and the whole PCGS and NGC "idea" has done more for the hobby and business than anything or anyone ever.

This business was drowning in fraud when PCGS launched and if something wasn't done quick, the size of the hobby would be but a mere fraction of what it is today without TPG.

And I don't want to hear about the so called TPG in the business before PCGS/NGC. Those others were in fact a part of the scams that were being perpetrated on the public.

So yes, the founders of PCGS and NGC took a shot and saved Numismatics from drowning. I hope they make a gazillion dollars doing so. They earned it.

Pentimento · October 24, 2006 9:57AM

First Strike, ms70 on a new proof coin, I say its Saul Good as long as there is full disclosure of rules and grading standards. Making up rules is one of nusmismatic world's greatest strengths. I didn't know anyone here really cared about First Strike any dang way...

Baley · October 24, 2006 9:59AM

Don't blame the supplier; there is a demand for slabbed modern coins and any company would be foolish to turn away cash business.

ziggy29 · October 24, 2006 10:00AM

<< So yes, the founders of PCGS and NGC took a shot and saved Numismatics from drowning. I hope they make a gazillion dollars doing so. They earned it. >>

I can see that. But at the same time, I think it's pretty obvious that the slab game has created its own new set of problems and issues to replace the others. Perhaps it's still better all things considered, but one would have to be drunk on the Kool-Aid, IMO, to not see that at least some of the unintended consequences of grading with encapsulation have had a negative impact on the hobby overall.

Bear · October 24, 2006 10:28AM

There is no doubt that TPG services always look to create

demand to further profitability. However, the overal health

of the coin market is of the greatest interest to TPGs. For if the

market dies, the need for the services of YPGs dies with it. So the answer

is YES, the major TPGs do indeed care about the overall coin market.

Further, the confidence and stability they have provided, have allowed for

the coin markets amazing growth and current capitalization.

Longacre · October 24, 2006 10:40AM

CoinKing · October 24, 2006 10:50AM

<< or is their only interest in numismatics is to bag as much cash with as many submissions and resubmissions as possible.. hard to believe theu have any true interest in the hobby when they holder bullion coins and assist to further the craze in slabbed brand new coins from the mint rather then telling people they are all virtually flawless coins and are are quite pointless to remove from the mints packaging and have graded.. and registry sets for proof state quarters is silly beyond belief if you ask me >>

Hmmm...let's see.

I wonder what our motivation was to spend untold sums setting up and maintaining these forums so that you could jab at us for free?

IGWT · October 24, 2006 10:57AM

<< I think they are interested in both the hobby and generating a profit. >>

Serving both of those interests can be difficult at times.

Nic · October 24, 2006 11:08AM

Ron,
Did you happen to notice classiccoins sig. line?
K

Elcontador · October 24, 2006 11:10AM

You can bag on PCGS all you like. To me, this first strike material is irrelevant. When the blue proof IHC issue was raging (please recall that all 'offending' coins were in NGC holders), I pointedly asked the NGC graders whether or not they considered such coins to be "market acceptable."

Since my question was greeted with deafening silence, that means 'yes.' I think this does far more damage to the hobby than anything relating to a "first strike" designation. Please get your priorities in order.

CoinKing · October 24, 2006 11:18AM

<< Ron,
Did you happen to notice classiccoins sig. line?
K >>

I'm not sure what you mean...I'm relatively new to this stuff.

IGWT · October 24, 2006 11:22AM

Discretion is the better part of valor.

RedTiger · October 24, 2006 11:23AM

Of course they do. Without the hobby they don't have a grading business. However, when push comes to shove, profits come first.

Many people make the mistake of thinking of the companies as public service organizations. They are for profit businesses started and operated to make money. Any regard for the hobby, is in thinking for the long term and maximizing long term profits.

Years ago, I said that the grading services would put horoscopes on the holders if they thought it would make them more money. First Strike comes close. When the hot money crowd tires of that, they might offer Very First Strike for coins submitted during the first ten days, and charge $25 for that tier instead of $10 for the other.

Look, I see nothing wrong with any of it. Collect what you like.

Submissions are down, it is tough and tougher to make money.

WoodenJefferson · October 24, 2006 11:31AM

PCGS has brought "professionalism" to a hobby that was rampant with opinion grading...ask the old timers, pre-1986 collectors. We needed standardization and PCGS just turned out to be the best! Case closed.

Kudos

DennisH · October 24, 2006 11:35AM

I believe they have great interest in and passion for numismatics.

numisma · October 24, 2006 11:40AM

I don't think that you would have had the chance to post your question if they didn't have a regard for the hobby. These forums and the articles on the web site are strong indicators that they do.

Bear · October 24, 2006 11:50AM

Ron, in regard to your comment as to the expense

of maintaining the free Forums ...............................

1. The Forums are an effective means to solidify loyalty
to the PCGS grading service. Thats, Kool-Aid drinkers to you.

2.The Forum is a source of constructive, if at times, irritating
criticism.

3.The Forum helps to keep your head on straight, as to what
collectors and dealers are thinking and as to changing trends
in the industry.

4.The Forum maintains a competative and superior edge over
the Forums provided by the place accross the street.

5. The Forum provides collectors with a an almost limitless fund
of information that furthers the knowledge and scope of our collecting
hobby.

6. The Forums are the training ground, for new generations of collectors

IN SHORT, THIS FORUM IS, "the wind beneath our wings".

Bear · October 24, 2006 11:54AM

As to the carping about first strike services,

It is an innovative way to create scarcity and value

in the market place. If folks do not wish to indulge

in this aspect of collecting then they should not indulge.

For many of us, we have our sets in for the designation.

FatMan · October 24, 2006 12:15PM

<< As to the carping about first strike services,

It is an innovative way to create scarcity and value

in the market place. If folks do not wish to indulge

in this aspect of collecting then they should not indulge.

For many of us, we have our sets in for the designation. >>

Bear, I am very disappointed in you. First Strike™ has zero numismatic validity and does not belong on a numismatic TPGs label. Without a disclaimer on the holder explaining its new non-numismatic meaning at best it is meaningless, but for most it deceives. I know all the TPG talking points, but these are being sold as something they are not by too many people.

First Strike deception

First Strike deception

Those two were out of the first five I checked on the top page for first strikes. They are blatant misrepresentations. And none of the others defined first strike as what it is...an early mailing date that has nothing to do with when minted or die state.

do you think pcgs and cu has any regard for numismatics and the hobby itself?

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