"The 9 bags that he purchased were original SEALED Federal Reserve Mint bags. Several had dates going back to the 1920s. He cut them open and put them in tubes and sent them to NGC for grading. He picked the name "Battle Creek Collection", but indicated that they were not purchased from a collector, but from an estate. He surmised that they might have been from the release of the CB hoard, but thought that they were more likely purchased by the original owner (now deceased) directly from the Federal Reserve banks in the 60's during the great silver release by the US Treasury. There is no doubt that they sat unopened and were essentially kept as hoard since that time. Based on some of the information that I received from him, I think I know who the original owner was and that owner was indeed from the Battle Creek area in Michigan. There are a couple of interesting "wrinkles" to this story and I may be able to more information at a later time, but for now, that's all the information that I can divulge. "
Dizzy-
This is NOT much of a backstory and to me adds very little of value beyond the coins themselves. Even the name, 'Battle Creek Collection,' is just made up.
<< <i>"The 9 bags that he purchased were original SEALED Federal Reserve Mint bags. Several had dates going back to the 1920s. He cut them open and put them in tubes and sent them to NGC for grading. He picked the name "Battle Creek Collection", but indicated that they were not purchased from a collector, but from an estate. He surmised that they might have been from the release of the CB hoard, but thought that they were more likely purchased by the original owner (now deceased) directly from the Federal Reserve banks in the 60's during the great silver release by the US Treasury. There is no doubt that they sat unopened and were essentially kept as hoard since that time. Based on some of the information that I received from him, I think I know who the original owner was and that owner was indeed from the Battle Creek area in Michigan. There are a couple of interesting "wrinkles" to this story and I may be able to more information at a later time, but for now, that's all the information that I can divulge. "
Dizzy-
This is NOT much of a backstory and to me adds very little of value beyond the coins themselves. Even the name, 'Battle Creek Collection,' is just made up. >>
Not that this is the first time with a fellow member of the forum, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the known elements surrounding this collection carry monumental importance for collectors new and advanced. I just don't think it's an argueable fact, but I've been surprised before, here on the forum.
I am certainly not going to call them AT, but how can all of you be so sure? If people can tone coins in sealed plastic, how hard would it be to do it through canvas. I have heard several comments of setting coins in envelopes on window sills for a month or two. Personally I don't care how color gets onto my coins. If I like them I buy them. However I don't spend moon money either. ( I am only a multi-hundredaire) I do find the Battle Creek Morgans to be some of the most beautiful coins on the planet. If you own them you are blessed to have them AT or NT. BUY THE COIN NOT THE PROCESS.
If I was half as smart as I am dumb Iwould be a genious
<< <i>The vast majority of Monster Morgans came from mint bags. How does the Battle Creek story differ from that? It doesn't.
There is really no story here except that nine mint bags were bought, certified, and called "Battle Creek Collection" for no known important reason. >>
This is just simply 'scratching the surface' of the enormity of this collection, but at least it's arousing interest. But that's ok, not everyone needs to appreciate the importance of this collection. There's something for everyone in this hobby.
<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Again, I hope they are NT, but it's irrational to say anything about this toning is a fact. You have an opinion, not a demonstrable fact. You damage your own credibility by insisting otherwise.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Again, I hope they are NT, but it's irrational to say anything about this toning is a fact. You have an opinion, not a demonstrable fact. You damage your own credibility by insisting otherwise. >>
Bill: I'll take that chance because I've been at this a long time and have had the opportunity to examine as many beautiful ORIGINAL toned dollars as anyone. Heck, if studying the real thing is good enough for the Secret Service to learn how to detect counterfeit U.S. currency, the same methodology should work in regard to NT/AT silver dollars. I'm reasonably certain that in most instances counterfeiters are better at their craft than are the coin doctors.
<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Mikey >>
And that is a FACT from an unbiased source who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients.
<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Mikey >>
And that is a FACT from an unbiased source who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients. >>
FlyingEagle, I only own one example, bought it from a private collector, and have never owned another, and I completely agree with Mikey. I think it's safe to say I'm unbiased... My opinion on the BC's anyway.
<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Mikey >>
And that is a FACT from an unbiased source who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients. >>
FlyingEagle, I only own one example, bought it from a private collector, and have never owned another, and I completely agree with Mikey. I think it's safe to say I'm unbiased... My opinion on the BC's anyway. >>
Yes - but what are your qualifications regarding toning that would make us tend to listen to this unbiased opinion? No disrespect intended, but from your posts here are we to conclude you have any experience in the matter?
[Full disclosure: I have no stake in the matter - I've never seen one in hand. Privately, I've heard it both ways. ]
<< <i>I think it's safe to say I'm unbiased... My opinion on the BC's anyway. >>
If, in reality, you were unbiased you would consider the opinions of those with many times your experience instead of simply responding with a laughing emoticon as you did with Don Willis.
<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Mikey >>
And that is a FACT from an unbiased source who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients. >>
Even with the capitalization, they are not FACTS, they are OPINIONS.
Furthermore and not to impeach someone's credibilty, I would suggest that someone "who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients" would be anything but unbiased....Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
I have viewed in detail quite a few of these toned BC coins and I am completely unbiased and uninvolved regarding them and never bought or sold a single one, and I also have a fairly strong opinion on them which I shared with a few people via PM.
<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Mikey >>
And that is a FACT from an unbiased source who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients. >>
FlyingEagle, I only own one example, bought it from a private collector, and have never owned another, and I completely agree with Mikey. I think it's safe to say I'm unbiased... My opinion on the BC's anyway. >>
Yes - but what are your qualifications regarding toning that would make us tend to listen to this unbiased opinion? No disrespect intended, but from your posts here are we to conclude you have any experience in the matter?
[Full disclosure: I have no stake in the matter - I've never seen one in hand. Privately, I've heard it both ways. ] >>
Well, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Seriously,
In my opinion, my qualifications can be construde as definitive as anyone else's in the hobby except perhaps for some of the most respected patriarchs of the hobby. I have learned and absorbed more knowledge in my short tenure than many may have done in decades. Longevity doesn't equate to intelligence in many cases in my opinion and it's a lot more about quality of learning rather that quantity. Now, with all this rubbish, take at it with a 'grain of salt' of course, as I do with any opinion from anyone I don't know personally.
<< <i>I think it's safe to say I'm unbiased... My opinion on the BC's anyway. >>
If, in reality, you were unbiased you would consider the opinions of those with many times your experience instead of simply responding with a laughing emoticon as you did with Don Willis.
Russ, NCNE >>
Well I don't know Don, but, I respect his opinion although I completely disagree with it... that's ok you know. The laughing emoticon however, may have been out of line.
I believe that anyone who has bought or sold one or more of these coins is biased, and even, that some who have done neither are also biased. Bias does not diminish one's knowledge or expertise, however.
I have viewed a good number of Battle Creek Morgans, certainly many more than some people and just as certainly, far fewer than others. Ditto for the number of other Morgan Dollars I have examined and/or graded over the years. The color on the Battle Creek Dollars looks uncommonly vibrant/bright/wild/vivid in a number of instances, but my guess/opinion is that it's original/natural.
I think that anyone who says they are 100% sure of anything with respect to much of what we discuss with respect to coins (including, of course, the AT/NT debates), should at least consider using a slightly lower % of certainty in their statements. After all, numerous experts have been 100% certain of various things numismatic over the years, which turned out to be incorrect. These are my OPINIONS and I am NOT 100% certain of them.
I have no idea idea if they toned that way in a mint bag, or in someone's laboratory, but my own personal opinion is that they seemed almost too good to be true and I wouldn't have bought one on that basis.
<< <i> In my opinion, my qualifications can be construde as definitive as anyone else's in the hobby except perhaps for some of the most respected patriarchs of the hobby. I have learned and absorbed more knowledge in my short tenure than many may have done in decades. >>
I've heard it smoetimes said that it is a long fall from a high horse..........
I think that Mark offers good advice when he suggests that we should be a little less than 100% sure of our opinions. Unless you are the guy who opened the bags....or the guy who worked in the lab there is no way to absolutely know. Ultimately everyone used their best judgement and expressed their opinion with their pocketbook.
To those that spent their money buying these coins, I say enjoy them! A big part of coin collecting are the feelings you have when you are home alone examing your collection. At that point it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
And yes, my company doesn't sell too many Morgans to the public. Any we get we usually flop to other dealers. But, back in the 70s when I was collecting, I put together a pretty decent set in Ch. Unc. - until, like most people, I ran out of money on the last half dozen or so. In the process I examined thousands of coins in original rolls and bags and looked at thousands more in dealer cases. In those pre-TPG days it was every man for himself and you had to develop and rely on your own judgement. That's how I still operate and I suggest that's how everyone should and not be so concerned as to what the other guy thinks.
Don Willis Premium Numismatics, Inc. myurl 800-596-COIN
<< <i> In my opinion, my qualifications can be construde as definitive as anyone else's in the hobby except perhaps for some of the most respected patriarchs of the hobby. I have learned and absorbed more knowledge in my short tenure than many may have done in decades. >>
I've heard it smoetimes said that it is a long fall from a high horse.......... >>
Dizzy, why is it that you constantly start this type of thread, and when folks give opinions you ask for...... you seem to mock and laugh at them. In fact, I've seen you start a few on this same subject. I might add, you have mocked opinions of some very experienced collectors. I know the dealers love ya though
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>Dizzy, why is it that you constantly start this type of thread, and when folks give opinions you ask for...... you seem to mock and laugh at them. In fact, I've seen you start a few on this same subject. I might add, you have mocked opinions of some very experienced collectors. I know the dealers love ya though
<< <i>To understand the complexities of toning on a Morgan dollar and their endemic colorations and toning patterns, is to understand that this group of BC Morgans is about as original as apple pie. JMHO. >>
<< <i>To understand the complexities of toning on a Morgan dollar and their endemic colorations and toning patterns, is to understand that this group of BC Morgans is about as original as apple pie. JMHO. >>
-I think I'm going to puke! >>
Maybe you should lie flat on your back and test the gravity of the situation
<< <i>To understand the complexities of toning on a Morgan dollar and their endemic colorations and toning patterns, is to understand that this group of BC Morgans is about as original as apple pie. JMHO. >>
-I think I'm going to puke! >>
Maybe you should lie flat on your back and test the gravity of the situation >>
I think anyone who has any interest in determining natural toning as opposed to fake toning should start with Bob Campbell's discussion on the subject. I have the DVD and it a great video of a talk he gave a few years ago at an ANA show. (pre BC) You can call him at his store and order it VHS or DVD formats ($15 & $25 I believe). Call his is shop "All About Coins" in Salt Lake City 801-467-8636
It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real, but can be coverd up with Blue Ribbon if you don't like the toning)
<< <i>I think anyone who has any interest in determining natural toning as opposed to fake toning should start with Bob Campbell's discussion on the subject. I have the DVD and it a great video of a talk he gave a few years ago at an ANA show. (pre BC) You can call him at his store and order it VHS or DVD formats ($15 & $25 I believe). Call his is shop "All About Coins" in Salt Lake City 801-467-8636
It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real, but can be coverd up with Blue Ribbon if you don't like the toning)
You all should order it. >>
Thanks for the info Rick. That's a great recommendation and any solid education on the subject is great for everyone.
Thanks, Rick! Good to know his opinion on the Blue Toned Indians.
Before you posted this, I was wondering what his take would be on these. This is what he had to say on toned Morgans in a thread recently, actually from a recent CDN:
<< <i>I was asked to give a brief synopsis of what has been happening with the market of toned coins since my last article, "Rainbow Toned Dollars, The Experiment," in the May 2003 CDN Monthly Supplement. In my opinion, certain rainbow toned Morgan Dollars have really gone up, but it's only a slim part of the market. Just the real upper crust, maybe two or three percent of the best rainbow toning on the obverse of Morgan Dollars have really made a dramatic increase and the rest have either held their own or have declined a little in value. There are only a few really nice, multiple, broad-banded neon electric colors on truly exceptional natural rainbow Morgan Dollars. I mean the real heart stoppers that would stop anyone (except Weimar White) in their tracks and say, Wow..., that's nice! Is it for sale...? How much is it? It's these spectacular type of colors! Maybe I can verbalize it better for you (I sure wish the editor could print color pictures) by explaining what type of colors need to be present on rainbow toned Morgan Dollars to be considered among the upper crust. >>
<< <i>Wide strips of deep Columbian emerald green that blends into neon florescent pink that transgress into .9999 fine Maple Leaf Gold. These colors should make up approximately 75 percent of the surface of the obverse on Miss Liberty's devices and in her fields. The other part of her surface should have small (a few millimeters wide) strips of color (working backwards) form cyan (blue), magenta, yellow and white, (in other words no color). If the coin is Prooflike, even better because it will make the colors jump off the coin and hypnotize you into believing you could leap into a sea of rainbow colors. My eyes go cross-eyed sometimes as I'm mesmerized into its depths of its translucent beauty. Very few coins are true wonder coins that catalogers call "cover coins" to be put on the front or back covers of their auction catalogs to lure really big bucks from those insane color collectors like me, and others reading this article. Prices for those coins have really gone up. (see chart) >>
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Flying Eagle - you sound extremely confident in at least some of your posts. Please tell us a bit about yourself and how you know the things you do? >>
<< <i>It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real >>
So he got it wrong. >>
Flying Eagle - you sound extremely confident in at least some of your posts. Please tell us a bit about yourself and how you know the things you do? >>
Knowledge instills confidence. I have been in the business for a long time.
<< <i> That's a great recommendation and any solid education on the subject is great for everyone. >>
Just curious, Dizzy, have you seen the video or one of Bob's live presentations (seeing as how you've so quickly become one of the world's top authorities on toned silver)?
<< <i> That's a great recommendation and any solid education on the subject is great for everyone. >>
Just curious, Dizzy, have you seen the video or one of Bob's live presentations (seeing as how you've so quickly become one of the world's top authorities on toned silver)?
z >>
No I have not. But even a top authority like me always has room to acquire more numismatic toning wisdom.
<< <i>It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real >>
So he got it wrong. >>
Flying Eagle - you sound extremely confident in at least some of your posts. Please tell us a bit about yourself and how you know the things you do? >>
Knowledge instills confidence. I have been in the business for a long time. >>
Knowledge which instills (genuine and appropriate) confidence often allows people not to talk as if they know things they might not know.
<< <i>It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real >>
So he got it wrong. >>
Flying Eagle - you sound extremely confident in at least some of your posts. Please tell us a bit about yourself and how you know the things you do? >>
Knowledge instills confidence. I have been in the business for a long time. >>
Knowledge which instills (genuine and appropriate) confidence often allows people not to talk as if they know things they might not know. >>
So are you saying that I was incorrect in pointing out that Bob Campbell was wrong about blue toned Indians cents being legitimate? Are you not the person who earlier this year brought it to the message boards attention that these are not legitimate? I am confused. Are you trying to provoke an argument? If you feel I was incorrect in anything that I wrote please provide a response stating why. If you wish I will ask Bob if his opinion has changed on them.
Comments
<< <i>What is the BC "provenance" all about? From what I've read, there is not much of a "story" at all, be it romantic, historic or otherwise. >>
Again, read up on it from various posts throughout the forum. There are some members who are very helpful and informative on the collection.
<< <i>Read NGCs press release complete with images if you want the STORY. It is from 6/6/05.Someone can provide a link.
Lloyd,
That has got to be one of the most impressive Morgan dollars in the entire hobby. My goodness!!!
Can you summarize it for us? I like good stories.
My World Coin Type Set
<< <i>Again, read up on it from various posts throughout the forum. There are some members who are very helpful and informative on the collection
Can you summarize it for us? I like good stories. >>
Here's a good start...
Dizzy-
This is NOT much of a backstory and to me adds very little of value beyond the coins themselves. Even the name, 'Battle Creek Collection,' is just made up.
<< <i>"The 9 bags that he purchased were original SEALED Federal Reserve Mint bags. Several had dates going back to the 1920s. He cut them open and put them in tubes and sent them to NGC for grading. He picked the name "Battle Creek Collection", but indicated that they were not purchased from a collector, but from an estate. He surmised that they might have been from the release of the CB hoard, but thought that they were more likely purchased by the original owner (now deceased) directly from the Federal Reserve banks in the 60's during the great silver release by the US Treasury. There is no doubt that they sat unopened and were essentially kept as hoard since that time. Based on some of the information that I received from him, I think I know who the original owner was and that owner was indeed from the Battle Creek area in Michigan. There are a couple of interesting "wrinkles" to this story and I may be able to more information at a later time, but for now, that's all the information that I can divulge. "
Dizzy-
This is NOT much of a backstory and to me adds very little of value beyond the coins themselves. Even the name, 'Battle Creek Collection,' is just made up. >>
Not that this is the first time with a fellow member of the forum, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I think the known elements surrounding this collection carry monumental importance for collectors new and advanced. I just don't think it's an argueable fact, but I've been surprised before, here on the forum.
There is really no story here except that nine mint bags were bought, certified, and called "Battle Creek Collection" for no known important reason.
<< <i>The vast majority of Monster Morgans came from mint bags. How does the Battle Creek story differ from that? It doesn't.
There is really no story here except that nine mint bags were bought, certified, and called "Battle Creek Collection" for no known important reason. >>
This is just simply 'scratching the surface' of the enormity of this collection, but at least it's arousing interest.
But that's ok, not everyone needs to appreciate the importance of this collection. There's something for everyone in this hobby.
<< <i>I examined all of them. In my opinion they were all absolutely AT. No way are these colors natural.
As the market corrects the buyers of these coins will feel a lot of pain.
-------------------------
Don Willis
Premium Numismatics, Inc. >>
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Again, I hope they are NT, but it's irrational to say anything about this toning is a fact. You have an opinion, not a demonstrable fact. You damage your own credibility by insisting otherwise. >>
Bill: I'll take that chance because I've been at this a long time and have had the opportunity to examine as many beautiful ORIGINAL toned dollars as anyone. Heck, if studying the real thing is good enough for the Secret Service to learn how to detect counterfeit U.S. currency, the same methodology should work in regard to NT/AT silver dollars. I'm reasonably certain that in most instances counterfeiters are better at their craft than are the coin doctors.
Mikey
PS Maybe I'm a victim of irrational exuberance...
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
<< <i>
<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Mikey
And that is a FACT from an unbiased source who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Mikey
And that is a FACT from an unbiased source who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients. >>
FlyingEagle, I only own one example, bought it from a private collector, and have never owned another, and I completely agree with Mikey. I think it's safe to say I'm unbiased... My opinion on the BC's anyway.
<< <i> I think it's safe to say I'm unbiased... >>
hmmm.....
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Mikey
And that is a FACT from an unbiased source who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients. >>
FlyingEagle, I only own one example, bought it from a private collector, and have never owned another, and I completely agree with Mikey. I think it's safe to say I'm unbiased... My opinion on the BC's anyway.
Yes - but what are your qualifications regarding toning that would make us tend to listen to this unbiased opinion? No disrespect intended, but from your posts here are we to conclude you have any experience in the matter?
[Full disclosure: I have no stake in the matter - I've never seen one in hand. Privately, I've heard it both ways. ]
<< <i>I think it's safe to say I'm unbiased... My opinion on the BC's anyway. >>
If, in reality, you were unbiased you would consider the opinions of those with many times your experience instead of simply responding with a laughing emoticon as you did with Don Willis.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Mikey
And that is a FACT from an unbiased source who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients. >>
Even with the capitalization, they are not FACTS, they are OPINIONS.
Furthermore and not to impeach someone's credibilty, I would suggest that someone "who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients" would be anything but unbiased....Mike
Cha Ching.
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<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).
And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?
Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!
So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>
Brandon: Being off base has nothing to do with Adrian disagreeing with me. Off base in this instance refers to the FACT that the Battle Creek dollars are NOT artificially toned, plain and simple...
Mikey
And that is a FACT from an unbiased source who spent more money on them than anyone else and sold a bunch of them to his best clients. >>
FlyingEagle, I only own one example, bought it from a private collector, and have never owned another, and I completely agree with Mikey. I think it's safe to say I'm unbiased... My opinion on the BC's anyway.
Yes - but what are your qualifications regarding toning that would make us tend to listen to this unbiased opinion? No disrespect intended, but from your posts here are we to conclude you have any experience in the matter?
[Full disclosure: I have no stake in the matter - I've never seen one in hand. Privately, I've heard it both ways. ] >>
Well, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Seriously,
In my opinion, my qualifications can be construde as definitive as anyone else's in the hobby except perhaps for some of the most respected patriarchs of the hobby. I have learned and absorbed more knowledge in my short tenure than many may have done in decades. Longevity doesn't equate to intelligence in many cases in my opinion and it's a lot more about quality of learning rather that quantity. Now, with all this rubbish, take at it with a 'grain of salt' of course, as I do with any opinion from anyone I don't know personally.
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<< <i>I think it's safe to say I'm unbiased... My opinion on the BC's anyway. >>
If, in reality, you were unbiased you would consider the opinions of those with many times your experience instead of simply responding with a laughing emoticon as you did with Don Willis.
Russ, NCNE >>
Well I don't know Don, but, I respect his opinion although I completely disagree with it... that's ok you know.
The laughing emoticon however, may have been out of line.
I have viewed a good number of Battle Creek Morgans, certainly many more than some people and just as certainly, far fewer than others. Ditto for the number of other Morgan Dollars I have examined and/or graded over the years. The color on the Battle Creek Dollars looks uncommonly vibrant/bright/wild/vivid in a number of instances, but my guess/opinion is that it's original/natural.
I think that anyone who says they are 100% sure of anything with respect to much of what we discuss with respect to coins (including, of course, the AT/NT debates), should at least consider using a slightly lower % of certainty in their statements. After all, numerous experts have been 100% certain of various things numismatic over the years, which turned out to be incorrect. These are my OPINIONS and I am NOT 100% certain of them.
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In my opinion, my qualifications can be construde as definitive as anyone else's in the hobby except perhaps for some of the most respected patriarchs of the hobby. I have learned and absorbed more knowledge in my short tenure than many may have done in decades. >>
I've heard it smoetimes said that it is a long fall from a high horse..........
And, I also thought there were several monster BC coins that had twins or triplets of almost like look which I found unusual at best.
To those that spent their money buying these coins, I say enjoy them! A big part of coin collecting are the feelings you have when you are home alone examing your collection. At that point it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
And yes, my company doesn't sell too many Morgans to the public. Any we get we usually flop to other dealers. But, back in the 70s when I was collecting, I put together a pretty decent set in Ch. Unc. - until, like most people, I ran out of money on the last half dozen or so. In the process I examined thousands of coins in original rolls and bags and looked at thousands more in dealer cases. In those pre-TPG days it was every man for himself and you had to develop and rely on your own judgement. That's how I still operate and I suggest that's how everyone should and not be so concerned as to what the other guy thinks.
Premium Numismatics, Inc.
myurl
800-596-COIN
<< <i>I too felt that "the Battle Creek Dollars look uncommonly vibrant/bright/wild/vivid in a number of instances."
And, I also thought there were several monster BC coins that had twins or triplets of almost like look which I found unusual at best. >>
After three Superior auctions for these had come and gone, I had noticed this also.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
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In my opinion, my qualifications can be construde as definitive as anyone else's in the hobby except perhaps for some of the most respected patriarchs of the hobby. I have learned and absorbed more knowledge in my short tenure than many may have done in decades. >>
I've heard it smoetimes said that it is a long fall from a high horse.......... >>
I'm buckled in pretty good, so no worries.
In fact, I've seen you start a few on this same subject. I might add, you have mocked opinions of some very experienced collectors. I know the dealers love ya though
<< <i>Dizzy, why is it that you constantly start this type of thread, and when folks give opinions you ask for...... you seem to mock and laugh at them.
In fact, I've seen you start a few on this same subject. I might add, you have mocked opinions of some very experienced collectors. I know the dealers love ya though
<< <i>To understand the complexities of toning on a Morgan dollar and their endemic colorations and toning patterns, is to understand that this group of BC Morgans is about as original as apple pie. JMHO. >>
-I think I'm going to puke!
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<< <i>To understand the complexities of toning on a Morgan dollar and their endemic colorations and toning patterns, is to understand that this group of BC Morgans is about as original as apple pie. JMHO. >>
-I think I'm going to puke! >>
Maybe you should lie flat on your back and test the gravity of the situation
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<< <i>To understand the complexities of toning on a Morgan dollar and their endemic colorations and toning patterns, is to understand that this group of BC Morgans is about as original as apple pie. JMHO. >>
-I think I'm going to puke! >>
Maybe you should lie flat on your back and test the gravity of the situation >>
Now that's
It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real, but can be coverd up with Blue Ribbon if you don't like the toning)
You all should order it.
<< <i>I think anyone who has any interest in determining natural toning as opposed to fake toning should start with Bob Campbell's discussion on the subject. I have the DVD and it a great video of a talk he gave a few years ago at an ANA show. (pre BC) You can call him at his store and order it VHS or DVD formats ($15 & $25 I believe). Call his is shop "All About Coins" in Salt Lake City 801-467-8636
It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real, but can be coverd up with Blue Ribbon if you don't like the toning)
You all should order it. >>
Thanks for the info Rick. That's a great recommendation and any solid education on the subject is great for everyone.
Before you posted this, I was wondering what his take would be on these. This is what he had to say on toned Morgans in a thread recently, actually from a recent CDN:
<< <i>I was asked to give a brief synopsis of what has been happening with the market of toned coins since my last article, "Rainbow Toned Dollars, The Experiment," in the May 2003 CDN Monthly Supplement. In my opinion, certain rainbow toned Morgan Dollars have really gone up, but it's only a slim part of the market. Just the real upper crust, maybe two or three percent of the best rainbow toning on the obverse of Morgan Dollars have really made a dramatic increase and the rest have either held their own or have declined a little in value. There are only a few really nice, multiple, broad-banded neon electric colors on truly exceptional natural rainbow Morgan Dollars. I mean the real heart stoppers that would stop anyone (except Weimar White) in their tracks and say, Wow..., that's nice! Is it for sale...? How much is it? It's these spectacular type of colors! Maybe I can verbalize it better for you (I sure wish the editor could print color pictures) by explaining what type of colors need to be present on rainbow toned Morgan Dollars to be considered among the upper crust. >>
<< <i>Wide strips of deep Columbian emerald green that blends into neon florescent pink that transgress into .9999 fine Maple Leaf Gold. These colors should make up approximately 75 percent of the surface of the obverse on Miss Liberty's devices and in her fields. The other part of her surface should have small (a few millimeters wide) strips of color (working backwards) form cyan (blue), magenta, yellow and white, (in other words no color). If the coin is Prooflike, even better because it will make the colors jump off the coin and hypnotize you into believing you could leap into a sea of rainbow colors. My eyes go cross-eyed sometimes as I'm mesmerized into its depths of its translucent beauty. Very few coins are true wonder coins that catalogers call "cover coins" to be put on the front or back covers of their auction catalogs to lure really big bucks from those insane color collectors like me, and others reading this article. Prices for those coins have really gone up. (see chart) >>
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real >>
So he got it wrong.
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<< <i>It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real >>
So he got it wrong. >>
Flying Eagle - you sound extremely confident in at least some of your posts. Please tell us a bit about yourself and how you know the things you do?
<< <i>Flying Eagle - you sound extremely confident in at least some of your posts. Please tell us a bit about yourself and how you know the things you do? >>
He can start with his name - Derek.
Russ, NCNE
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<< <i>It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real >>
So he got it wrong. >>
Flying Eagle - you sound extremely confident in at least some of your posts. Please tell us a bit about yourself and how you know the things you do? >>
Knowledge instills confidence. I have been in the business for a long time.
<< <i> That's a great recommendation and any solid education on the subject is great for everyone. >>
Just curious, Dizzy, have you seen the video or one of Bob's live presentations (seeing as how you've so quickly become one of the world's top authorities on toned silver)?
z
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<< <i> That's a great recommendation and any solid education on the subject is great for everyone. >>
Just curious, Dizzy, have you seen the video or one of Bob's live presentations (seeing as how you've so quickly become one of the world's top authorities on toned silver)?
z >>
No I have not. But even a top authority like me always has room to acquire more numismatic toning wisdom.
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<< <i>It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real >>
So he got it wrong. >>
Flying Eagle - you sound extremely confident in at least some of your posts. Please tell us a bit about yourself and how you know the things you do? >>
Knowledge instills confidence. I have been in the business for a long time. >>
Knowledge which instills (genuine and appropriate) confidence often allows people not to talk as if they know things they might not know.
<< <i> I have been in the business for a long time. >>
Long time = exact amount of time "Derek" has been in the business...........
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<< <i>It's mostly about silver tioning, he says one sentence about Blue Toned Indians (he says they're real >>
So he got it wrong. >>
Flying Eagle - you sound extremely confident in at least some of your posts. Please tell us a bit about yourself and how you know the things you do? >>
Knowledge instills confidence. I have been in the business for a long time. >>
Knowledge which instills (genuine and appropriate) confidence often allows people not to talk as if they know things they might not know. >>
So are you saying that I was incorrect in pointing out that Bob Campbell was wrong about blue toned Indians cents being legitimate? Are you not the person who earlier this year brought it to the message boards attention that these are not legitimate? I am confused. Are you trying to provoke an argument? If you feel I was incorrect in anything that I wrote please provide a response stating why. If you wish I will ask Bob if his opinion has changed on them.