Battle Creek Morgans...

dizzyfoxx

Your thoughts on them would be appreciated???

Leiana

To me, they are very mysterious because I don't know much about them!

-Amanda

Gator5220

I bought one.

Aegis3

They're Morgans.

Yeah, that's about all of my thoughts on them.

Hadleydog

Perhaps not the quantity but certainly the quality of the Continental Bank Hoard in terms of incredible color (and there are those that believe these bags may have originated out of that group). The Binion hoard had a lot of toners, but nothing approaching the quality of the top BC or CB groups. Other than those 3 groups, there have been no other major releases during the last 30 years or so that I am aware of. I wonder how many more groups like this we will see, history suggests not many. JMHO.

My only BC coin, the batteries were not included.

AnkurJ

Thats some gorgeous toning!

AJ

Louis

A lot of secrecy surrounding that hoard.

Trinketts

So if you dip your coins in battle creek that is what they will look like?

Hadleydog

<< <i>A lot of secrecy surrounding that hoard. >>



Link to ngc article BC

pharmer

My thoughts are as follows, and I've thought a lot about them, and even asked someone to represent me at the first Superior sale, where many of the best sold. He honestly said he also intended to be an active bidder, and declined. So I watched, and was amazed at the prices. Still wish I could see one in hand.

But I do not regret not owning one or more of the mooses. My taste runs to the broad banded rainbows with the entire spectrum elucidated in Rob790's classic thread.

But my conclusion is that I fervently hope, and suspect, that they are NT, because if coin docs are that good, either 1) all is lost, or 2) they deserve what they make. Maybe a bit of both.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

A lot of them have some amazing color but they carry an obsurd premium

WTCG

Some of them, but not many are a few of the most beautifully toned Morgans known today. More are attractively toned, but do necessarily not qualify as true "monsters". The majority of the hoard's coins aren't ugly, but but barely qualify for a premium for their toning.

Hadleydog

<< <i>Some of them, but not many are a few of the most beautifully toned Morgans known today. More are attractively toned, but do necessarily not qualify as true "monsters". The majority of the hoard's coins aren't ugly, but but barely qualify for a premium for their toning. >>



Yep. The top 5% or so were mindblowers. Then the was the majority, many of which were midiocre or hardly toned at all, yet sold with the fever of the nicer pieces. Had the name BC and a star on it, ya know. Ebay stuff now........
Speaking of the star, did that ever lose it's luster with some of the trash that got it with the pedigree. ArtR gets turned down with his amazing toned Peace dollar for one, yet some ms63's with a sliver of blue on the reverse and a scarface obverse got them. Ya, right.

fountainheadgold

Here,s a cool Battle Creek

ANACONDA

It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that the Battle Creek coins were ALL artificially toned. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. They all look the same and there isn't any story that goes with them to my knowledge. We stayed a long ways away from them. They also sold for absurd money. (Hey - calm down! I'm just kidding. They're awesome coins.)

stman

<< <i>It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that the Battle Creek coins were ALL artificially toned. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. They all look the same and there isn't any story that goes with them to my knowledge. We stayed a long ways away from them. They also sold for absurd money. Just my honest opinion. >>



Yes, a "story" IS important.

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that the Battle Creek coins were ALL artificially toned. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. They all look the same and there isn't any story that goes with them to my knowledge. We stayed a long ways away from them. They also sold for absurd money. Just my honest opinion. >>



Although to say I'm shocked to read this coming from ARC would be an understatement, I appreciate your input. I think the originality of the BC coins is completely rock solid. I don't think they all look the same in any way, shape, or form. There are so many different color patterns, schemes, colorations, etc., as one would expect from a vast group of Morgan dollars which were subject to just the right atmospheric conditions. To understand the complexities of toning on a Morgan dollar and their endemic colorations and toning patterns, is to understand that this group of BC Morgans is about as original as apple pie. JMHO.

jamesfsm

"It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that the Battle Creek coins were ALL artificially toned. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. They all look the same and there isn't any story that goes with them to my knowledge. We stayed a long ways away from them. They also sold for absurd money. Just my honest opinion."

ANY THOUGHTS ON WHAT MAY HAVE CAUSED THE TONING??

kryptonitecomics

<< <i>It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that the Battle Creek coins were ALL artificially toned. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. They all look the same and there isn't any story that goes with them to my knowledge. We stayed a long ways away from them. They also sold for absurd money. Just my honest opinion. >>




Your joking right???? Adrain....I love you buddy but I don't know what's crazier......the fact that you feel there is even a remote chance the coins may not be legit....or the fact that you would claim they sold for absurd prices when the same could be said about quite a bit of your current and past inventory???

ANACONDA

Ok, maybe their legit.

ANACONDA

"Your joking right???? Adrain....I love you buddy but I don't know what's crazier......the fact that you feel there is even a remote chance the coins may not be legit....or the fact that you would claim they sold for absurd prices when the same could be said about quite a bit of your current and past inventory??? "

Most really cool coins are expensive, besides, my coins are not as expensive as they used to be now that I have Brandon.

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>"Your joking right???? Adrain....I love you buddy but I don't know what's crazier......the fact that you feel there is even a remote chance the coins may not be legit....or the fact that you would claim they sold for absurd prices when the same could be said about quite a bit of your current and past inventory??? "

Most really cool coins are expensive, besides, my coins are not as expensive as they used to be now that I have Brandon. >>



Here's a Toned Morgan that has an enormous premium on it, which I happen to think is not at all unrealistic. Using this amazing coin as an example, is one of many cases in point that if a collector wants to own an amazingly toned Morgan in any MS grade, they better be prepared to shell out some Franklins. I think the Battle Creek Morgans, the prettier ones, should and do command MONSTER premiums. JMHO.

dragon

I have examined quite a few of the nicer Battle Creek dollars but was never inclined to purchase one. I saw things on a few of them that just didn't sit right with me, after over 20 yrs. of looking at toned dollars including a great number of the superbly toned pieces from the famous Continental Bank Hoard nearly immediatly after discovery.

prenum

I examined all of them. In my opinion they were all absolutely AT. No way are these colors natural.

As the market corrects the buyers of these coins will feel a lot of pain.

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>I examined all of them. In my opinion they were all absolutely AT. No way are these colors natural.

As the market corrects the buyers of these coins will feel a lot of pain. >>

kryptonitecomics

What ever you can sell a coin for is aparently what it was worth to someone so I have no problem with you selling coins for moon money.....seems like the best business strategy I can think of.........I was simply equating some of the moon money coins you sell to the battle creeks and a steep premium comparison could be made.

I believe quite a bit of the story is known about the Battle creek collection, but it's still not crystal clear at this point and speculation is rampent. I think the original owner of the coins is just looking for a little more privacy than most......perhaps the coins were left to him by a relative and he does not want to come clean becuase of Inheritance taxes etc???? I mean it really could be something that simple.....or he moved into an old hose and found them behind a wall when he was remodling and didn't want to let the previous owners in on it etc? Sure these guesses could be completely off base but the secrecy behind it could have more to do with a potential financial loss via sharing profits then some mad scientist doing some home cooking in a lab

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>What ever you can sell a coin for is aparently what it was worth to someone so I have no problem with you selling coins for moon money.....seems like the best business strategy I can think of.........I was simply equating some of the moon money coins you sell to the battle creeks and a steep premium comparison could be made.

I believe quite a bit of the story is known about the Battle creek collection, but it's still not crystal clear at this point and speculation is rampent. I think the original owner of the coins is just looking for a little more privacy than most......perhaps the coins were left to him by a relative and he does not want to come clean becuase of Inheritance taxes etc???? I mean it really could be something that simple.....or he moved into an old hose and found them behind a wall when he was remodling and didn't want to let the previous owners in on it etc? Sure these guesses could be completely off base but the secrecy behind it could have more to do with a potential financial loss via sharing profits then some mad scientist doing some home cooking in a lab >>



Great points. Anticipation and speculation can sure dig deep.

stman

Dizzy, why is it that you constantly start this type of thread, and when folks give opinions you ask for...... you seem to mock and laugh at them.
In fact, I've seen you start a few on this same subject. I might add, you have mocked opinions of some very experienced collectors. I know the dealers love ya though. BTW, I'm not commenting on the subject, but laughing at Don Willis and his opinion is laughing at a whole lot of experience in the industry. JMWO

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>Dizzy, why is it that you constantly start this type of thread, and when folks give opinions you ask for...... you seem to mock and laugh at them.
In fact, I've seen you start a few on this same subject. I might add, you have mocked opinions of some very experienced collectors. I know the dealers love ya though. BTW, I'm not commenting on the subject, but laughing at Don Willis and his opinion is laughing at a whole lot of experience in the industry. JMWO >>



In an honest and completely unintentional way, I guess my thoughts and opinions come across as arrogant and rude. No offense meant to anyone who voices their opinions. But if it's not the same as mine, WATCH OUT!!!

stman

Well Dizzy, you did say once, I had a way of humbling you. Heh

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>Well Dizzy, you did say once, I had a way of humbling you. Heh >>

Hadleydog

I am interested in those who voiced an opinion that they 'saw something' not quite right or felt they were all no question at to explain what they saw or why they called at. I'd love to hear thier reasoning. Dragon, prenum, whatcha see?

prenum

The colors didn't look natural. Shades were way too bright and superfical. Natural toning will put color on coins but it goes on with a depth and dimension that just wasn't present. Time ages color - all the color on those coins looked brand new.

Hadleydog

<< <i>The colors didn't look natural. Shades were way too bright and superfical. Natural toning will put color on coins but it goes on with a depth and dimension that just wasn't present. Time ages color - all the color on those coins looked brand new. >>



I have a couple of coins that came from the continental bank hoard, and the colors are very similar to my BC coin. You saying that hoard was at'd as well? Most of the BC group was fairly plain, and could not be distinguished from many other coins out there. Them too? We have talked at length about these coins on the TCCS boards, and have never once seen any reason to even cast a shadow of doubt as to thier originality. What would any of us know, though....... Looked at your website, no Morgans?

D

Seems most/many BC Morgan dollars suffer from extreme image tweaking.

-Daniel

bestclser1

<< <i>Seems most/many BC Morgan dollars suffer from extreme image tweaking.

-Daniel >>

See the best ones in hand and repeat that with a straight face.I am sure you naysayers are more experienced in toned Morgans than Coingame 2000 and Larry Sheppard,the 2 who bought MOST of the true monsters.

D

<< <i>

<< <i>Seems most/many BC Morgan dollars suffer from extreme image tweaking.

-Daniel >>

See the best ones in hand and repeat that with a straight face.I am sure you naysayers are more experienced in toned Morgans than Coingame 2000 and Larry Sheppard,the 2 who bought MOST of the true monsters. >>



I don't need to see a coin in hand to know that it has a manipulated image. I have no doubts many of the coins are appealing; I never said there weren't attractive BC Morgans.

The fact is, I could look at them all day long and say with a straight face that I've seen a ton of doctored BC Morgan images.

-Daniel

coingame2000

<< <i>It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that the Battle Creek coins were ALL artificially toned. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. They all look the same and there isn't any story that goes with them to my knowledge. We stayed a long ways away from them. They also sold for absurd money. Just my honest opinion. >>



Adrian: Have you been smokin' something funny tonight ??? The Battle Creek dollars to which you refer are obviously NOT artificially toned -- rather the spectacular colors are a natural by-product of long-term storage in canvas mint bags. Moreover, they don't ALL look the same as you suggest. There were a myriad of toning patterns and color combinations represented in this group, not to mention the fact that the colors themselves range from semi-boring and nondescript through wildly sublime neon fluorescence. As the single largest buyer (dollarwise) of the Battle Creek coins I was grateful to have been presented with the opportunity to acquire a quantity of mint bag fresh toned dollars of this magnitude. These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career). Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!

Mikey

PS If you are interested in actually seeing the diversity of color and toning patterns represented among the BC coins please check out my image gallery at the following link: BATTLE CREEK IMAGE GALLERY. After looking at them please let me know if you can honestly say the ALL look the same to you.

Newmismatist

<< <i>It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that the Battle Creek coins were ALL artificially toned. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. They all look the same and there isn't any story that goes with them to my knowledge. We stayed a long ways away from them. They also sold for absurd money. Just my honest opinion. >>



Adrian

You need to stick to somethin that you know something about - say toned Peace Dollars

As for the BC coins here's the background:

I spoke with the Dealer who bought the 9 unopened bags. They were purchased by bidding on the sealed bags (he couldn't open them and look at the coins to check the quality) along with several other dealers. The bags were original Federal Reserve Mint bags with crimped LEAD SEALS Several of the Lead seals had dates going back to the 1920s. The sealed bags were cut open and put in tubes and sent to NGC for grading. The name "Battle Creek Collection" was selected by the dealer who bought the coins. He indicated that they were not purchased from a collector, but from an estate. He surmised that they might have been from the release of the CB hoard, but thought that they were more likely purchased by the original owner (now deceased) directly from the Federal Reserve banks in the 60's during the great silver release by the US Treasury. There is no doubt that they sat unopened and were essentially kept as hoard since that time. Based on some of the information that I received from him, I think I know who the original owner was and that owner was indeed from the Battle Creek area in Michigan.

The above is consistent with the similar information regarding the famous Continental Bank hoard of silvere dollars that were released in the early 80s. If AT is defined as bag toned coins that sat in a sealed canvas bag for 80 years, I'm a buyer of ANY of that kind of "AT".

As for those who think the BC coins are AT, please sell me any that you have - I'm a buyer - double ask for any that look like the best of the Battle Creek toners.

ANACONDA

You guys are right. They're original. I just thought I'd stir the pot a little. It's a lot easier keeping a straight face when you're behind a monitor. Someone needed to call them AT, it's a forum tradition.

You need to stick to somethin that you know something about - say toned Peace Dollars

Nuthin' but net on that one.

dizzyfoxx

I must sat that by creating this thread, it has sparked my interest even more to the monumental importance and romantic history of this most prized collection. As of right now, I only have one BC Morgan in my collection but I will certainly be on the hunt for more. In my opinion, if any collectors new or advanced are looking for a beautifully toned Morgan dollar, there's no better pedigree of provenance or more beautiful choices to choose from than the Battle Creeks. As far as the one that I have now, I think Lloyd (bestclser1) will agree that it's one of the more special examples of the BC coins. It's one of those that you just never get tired of admiring.

poorguy

These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).

And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?


Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!

So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base?

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>These exquisite coins are among the most strikingly beautiful toned dollars I have encountered during my THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST (one who has specialized in exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage throughout his career).

And that doesn't strike you as a bit strange?


Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!!

So, anyone who disagrees with you is off base? >>



Why would this strike anyone as strange??? There are incredible 'FINDS' from time to time in every hobby, and this is no different. There's nothing strange about it and when you look at other non-BC coins with amazing toning and MOON MONEY asking prices, it's really not any different than the Battle Creeks. If anything, I think a collector is MUCH better off buying a Battle Creek pedigreed Morgan than a non-BC, because the all-important provenance and romantic history will be there for now and for future generations.
I think there may be some resentment from many who did not take advantage of the situation and acquire some of these more monstrous coins when they first came up on the auction block.

dragon

<<< Adrian my friend, your off base here. BTW, that's not just my opinion -- it's a FACT!!! >>>



I'm a little confused, what here is a fact?

poorguy

I think there may be some resentment from many who did not take advantage of the situation and acquire some of these more monstrous coins when they first came up on the auction block.

I can easily say that I haven't lost a bit of sleep over not pursuing these coins. I still can't believe that an 1886 Morgan in NGC MS66 took over $12,000. I wonder if it will ever fetch that much again if put back up on the auction block.

pharmer

<< <i>You guys are right. They're original. I just thought I'd stir the pot a little. It's a lot easier keeping a straight face when you're behind a monitor. Someone needed to call them AT, it's a forum tradition.

You need to stick to somethin that you know something about - say toned Peace Dollars

Nuthin' but net on that one. >>




Your first opinion sounded genuine. This sounds tongue-in-cheek. Whatever. As I said, I hope they are NT, but it's impossible to know for a fact.

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>I think there may be some resentment from many who did not take advantage of the situation and acquire some of these more monstrous coins when they first came up on the auction block.

I can easily say that I haven't lost a bit of sleep over not pursuing these coins. I still can't believe that an 1886 Morgan in NGC MS66 took over $12,000. I wonder if it will ever fetch that much again if put back up on the auction block. >>



12k for an 1886 in MS66 for me would classify as the definition of 'MOON MONEY'.
Would it fetch that or more in a future auction?, I'd say without a doubt. Especially as time goes on and the importance of known provenance and the romantic history regarding these coins become more and more substantial to the new generations of collectors.

jamesfsm

What on Earth is the "known provenance and the romantic history" regarding the BC coins? It's not the Eliasberg collection is it??

Sunnywood

I think this thread would be well-served by some images !! Here are two of my Battle Creek Morgans:

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>What on Earth is the "known provenance and the romantic history" regarding the BC coins? It's not the Eliasberg collection is it?? >>



Read up on some of the threads, posts, etc. and you'll at least gather that there is provenance to the collection. In coins, any provenance is worth its' weight in gold. 80%-90% of Morgans have absolutely zero known provenance. I don't think this is a bad thing by any means, but a collection like the Battle Creeks at least have a degree of historical significance.
As far as the romantic history is concerned, one must have an interest and be passionate about a given collection to possess the feelings of the romantic history involved. Whether it be a little history or a ton of history, knowing anything about where a coin came from is special to me.

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>I think this thread would be well-served by some images !! Here are two of my Battle Creek Morgans:



>>



Yea, those are certainly questionable...

Absolutely gorgeous coins Sunnywood. I think most who appreciate beautifully toned Morgan dollars would to own those.