Two Buffalo nickels--thoughts?

gyocomgd · September 19, 2006 2:50AM

I have two Buffalo nickels to show, and seek your thoughts on. First, what happened to the date on the 1925-S? Die erosion? It has no wear at all and really is terrific save for that little disaster.

As for this 1928-S, I initially was alarmed by its gleaming appearance. But Lange writes, "The 1928-S nickel has good to excellent luster, though it is rarely of the frostiness associated with most other issues, particularly the P-mint coins. More commonly seen for this date is the bright, liquid appearance associated with polished planchets that have not been fully compressed by the dies..."

Tonedbuff · September 19, 2006 2:59AM

Interesting on the 25S. My best guess would be grease filled die. As to the grade, likely MS63 or 62 worst case. Lots of little bag marks. Nice strike, however, and good eye appeal. The 28 is more interesting yet, and yes, they sometimes appear to be whizzed they glow so much. Mediocre reverse strike (not uncommon at all) and a better than average obv strike, and few hits. I'd say a nice 65, maybe 64. Pic makes it tough to see detail, so I may be missing something, but I can't imaging anything taking it below a 64. Expensive coin either way! Were these ebay wins?

Just one thought on the 28s. It may be useful to take a really close look along the devices just to ensure that there are no signs of polishing or whizzing. Since the coin often had high luster, a coin doc could have flown under the radar on a whiz on that one. Look for any tiny bits of build up near the letters or devices. I doubt it, but it bears looking into.

Leiana · September 19, 2006 3:46AM

I'm not on a very good monitor right now, but they both look very nice!

The 28S is a nice coin, I don't see any evidence of whizzing, but again, poor monitor.

Nice buffs, as always!

I will come back to this thread later and take a stab at grading them.

-Amanda

guitarwes · September 19, 2006 4:16AM

GREAT strike on the 28-S OBV and nice die clash on the 25-S!
filled die/grease strike through on the 25-S date

MS 62 on first, 64/65 on Second. Great coins!! wouldn't mind to own them at all.

Longacre · September 19, 2006 4:29AM

I'm not sure of the answer, but those nickels are great!

Shamika · September 19, 2006 4:46AM

The 25-S looks to be a 62 (assuming it acutally is an S mint). If the date were full, I'd give it a 64. Erosion is very common on this issue and weakness or loss of the first two digits in the date is not uncommon.

Typical 28-S Buffalos do indeed seem to come with proof like surfaces. I'd grade your coin 63/64.

Tell us what PCGS thinks when you submit them.

291fifth · September 19, 2006 4:54AM

The 25-S is a coin that should probably be body-bagged. The softly struck date, regardless of the reason, is a major negative. Putting that coin in a MS62 or 63 slab will hurt the reputation of the grading service that does so.

Just my opinion, which I know many, maybe most, will strongly disagree with.

gyocomgd · September 19, 2006 5:16AM

Ugh. You know what? I typed too fast and had just looked at a 25-S before I posted. It is NOT a 25-S, merely a 25-P. I'm very sorry.

Shamika · September 19, 2006 5:41AM

<< It is NOT a 25-S, merely a 25-P. I'm very sorry. >>

That explains it. I'd still grade it 62.

<< The 25-S is a coin that should probably be body-bagged. The softly struck date, regardless of the reason, is a major negative. Putting that coin in a MS62 or 63 slab will hurt the reputation of the grading service that does so. >>

Sorry, but I can't possibly agree with this opinion. If the coin is authentic, appears original, and can be identified as to date and mint, PCGS has an obligation to slab it. They don't have to grade it MS however.

Also, if this coin were a 25-S, such a poor strike would not be out of the ordinary. 1925-S Buffalos frequently have poor detail in the date and mint mark.

cape · September 19, 2006 6:03AM

wait till tonight youll see a couple of real nice 25s from caitlen. i just went for a ms 65 25s in long beach and they 64-d it again ,maybe caitlen can post an image of my coin for me.

gyocomgd · September 19, 2006 6:30AM

<< wait till tonight youll see a couple of real nice 25s from caitlen. i just went for a ms 65 25s in long beach and they 64-d it again ,maybe caitlen can post an image of my coin for me.

>>

Do you mean "25s" or "25-s's?"

obversity · September 19, 2006 7:10AM

<< nice die clash on the 25-S! >>

Could someone point this out to me? I can't see evidence of a die clash.

Nice looking coins.

Shamika · September 19, 2006 7:22AM

<< Could someone point this out to me? I can't see evidence of a die clash. >>

Ditto! There does not appear to be any clash on either coin.

koynekwest · September 19, 2006 8:04AM

My guess on the 1925 would be a grease filled die compounded by inherent weakness in the master hub. The first two digits on all the 1925 Buffs from all three Mints are often weak, which probably due to a problem on the master hub. The first two digits of the date were present on the master hub from the beginning in 1913 and they had begun have begun to wear by the 1920's. This master hub was re-worked in 1926. There HAS been a die clash on the 1925 as evidenced by the die damage at the very top of the neck, but the clash was polished out of this particular die. Note the difference in the curvature of the neck where it joins the jaw. These, in extreme cases are known as "Broken Neck" varieties.

On the 1928-S this seems to be a characteristic of many of the "S" Mint coins for certain dates (1913 both varieties; 1914; 1915; 1916; 1927; 1928) that sometimes will show semi-prooflike lustre. Why this is so I haven't a clue.

gyocomgd · September 19, 2006 8:45AM

Lange attributes the luster to polished dies.

koynekwest · September 19, 2006 9:35AM

Dies would be polished to remove a die clash or, very rarely, to remove light rust. I see absolutely no evidence of die clashing or the subsequent die polish to remove it on the '28-S. However, the atypical lustre has to be caused by some kind of die or planchet preparation-no doubt about that.

Leiana · September 19, 2006 10:03AM

Okay, on a proper monitor.

The 25 I would call 62, it's a bit baggy.

The 28S I would say is a 65. It's really very clean, and has great lustre.

-Amanda

gyocomgd · September 19, 2006 12:03PM

<< 
The 28S I would say is a 65. It's really very clean, and has great lustre.

-Amanda >>

Lol, if you're right and it's a $4,000 coin, lunch is on me.

Leiana · September 19, 2006 12:07PM

<< 

<< 
The 28S I would say is a 65. It's really very clean, and has great lustre.

-Amanda >>

Lol, if you're right and it's a $4,000 coin, lunch is on me. >>

$4,000!!

I would hope I was right, but then I have not been at this for very long.

-Amanda

yellowjacket · September 19, 2006 1:42PM

Koynekwest has been doing his research. I was about to respond to this thread when I read his thoughts. He is right on target about 25s having a weak first two digits, possibly from the master die. Ususally you see this on branch mint issues from that year. This example has more of a problem than most. Die errosion, filled die...as has been suggested, has added to the problem.

And for 28-Ss, they are often found with proof-like fields. I have a 14-S with the same strike.

1925...62

1928-S...64

rec78 · September 19, 2006 2:38PM

Very nice coins !! Are you sure that the 1925 is not a 1925-S?....I think you best look closer !! Here a blowup of the 1925 reverse MM area...Appears to be an "S" there?? Maybe??

Shamika · September 19, 2006 2:47PM

rec78,

He admitted to being in error. It's actually a 25-P.

rec78 · September 19, 2006 3:00PM

Well i see what appears to be an "S" there. This issue has a lot of problems and sometimes very weak mint marks.

Hoot · September 19, 2006 4:15PM

An interesting pair of coins, each in their own right. The 25 has a fantastic reverse strike. Far above average. The obverse obviously suffers from a typically weak strike along with a grease filled date. The chatter in the central portion of the Indian's hair is typical of an incomplete strike on a typically rough planchet surface. Many 25 buffs show clash marks like yours, but few with such well-defined "chin whiskers" (with the attending disruption of the reverse motto).

The 28-S is quite typical for a well struck piece from strongly fatigued dies. The strong fatigue is shown in the extraordinary flow shown well in the tip of the long feather, the Indian's neck and lower braid, and on the reverse in the bison's hair (particularly the head), along the rim, and in the overall mushiness of the letters and other devices. It's an odd thing to see a strong strike that shows little detail, but there is no evidence of "raw planchet" surfaces on this coin. Kind of remarkable.

The 25 strikes me as an MS62 and the 28 an MS63/64. Nice and interesting coins.

Hoot

Two Buffalo nickels--thoughts?

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