With all this lasering and doctoring, I'm seriously done with numismatics
KingOfCoins
Posts: 153
I'm still fairly new to the hobby, but I just can't see myself putting alot of money into a coin when I don't know if it was repaired by some undetectable method.
At first I thought I would stick to PCGS slabbed coins and save me any trouble, then I read stories of lasering through the slab, and being able to remove the coin from the slab and stick another coin in.
This just ruins the fun for me. And I can't see putting $1,000 or more into 1 coin and 10 years later finding out it was doctored.
Instead I will put my money into gold and silver bullion. I am only 23 and was looking forward to many years of building sets and so forth, but I don't think I'm going to continue.
I'm really disappointed, it's not a choice I like making.....
At first I thought I would stick to PCGS slabbed coins and save me any trouble, then I read stories of lasering through the slab, and being able to remove the coin from the slab and stick another coin in.
This just ruins the fun for me. And I can't see putting $1,000 or more into 1 coin and 10 years later finding out it was doctored.
Instead I will put my money into gold and silver bullion. I am only 23 and was looking forward to many years of building sets and so forth, but I don't think I'm going to continue.
I'm really disappointed, it's not a choice I like making.....
0
Comments
THIS is why coin doctors make me so upset. This exact reason. (Among others.)
People don't feel secure in the hobby anymore.
I wish you luck in your future endeavours.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
involved, there is always
a touch of larceny.
Camelot
I have seen More Silver Bars that were Drilled and filled
and More Gold Maple Leafs that were Counterfeit
Than I have seen lasered Coins.
Www.killermarbles.com
Www.suncitycoin.com
<< <i>..... but I don't think I'm going to continue...... >>
You might want to change your username then
There's always going to be people trying to cheat you, no matter what you do in life.
But consider this.
Collecting coins is not an investment, it's a hobby.
If you move on to Golf as a hobby instead of coin collecting, when you get old is the country club going to give you all the money back you've spent there? With interest?
How about bowling? After a lifetime living in the alleys of the world, what'll you have to show for it other than rotator cuff damage in your bowling shoulder? Are you going to be able to sell that beatup old bowling ball for many times what you paid?
I'll offer you some advise.
Pick a coin series that looks neat to you. Bust Half Dimes, Seated Half Dimes, whatever catches your interest.
Then buy what ever books are available for the series. Learn who the people are that specialize in it and get to know them. Then, learn to grade.
Buy the best quality coins within your budget, and try to cherrypick the rare varieties from the dealers and collectors that don't have knowledge of the series.
You'll have an enjoyable hobby, and when you tire of the series you're into, you'll probably realize a nice profit.
Ray
It seems like too much of a hassle to cover every angle.
I was going to bid on an 1880 seated dime on ebay yesterday, PCGS AU55 , and I just lost interest knowing that the slab or the coin might have been altered after it had been graded.
I'll probably run into the same thing with bullion, at least with bars.
I have been taken in the past. But I have since educated myself and I can now avoid a similar situation.
Now if it was something I was interested in that was TOTALLY out of my league and comfort zone, like proof gold or something, I'm sure I would ask people I trusted for help before making a decision.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
42/92
There's always going to be people trying to cheat you, no matter what you do in life.
But consider this.
Collecting coins is not an investment, it's a hobby.
If you move on to Golf as a hobby instead of coin collecting, when you get old is the country club going to give you all the money back you've spent there? With interest?
How about bowling? After a lifetime living in the alleys of the world, what'll you have to show for it other than rotator cuff damage in your bowling shoulder? Are you going to be able to sell that beatup old bowling ball for many times what you paid?
I'll offer you some advise.
Pick a coin series that looks neat to you. Bust Half Dimes, Seated Half Dimes, whatever catches your interest.
Then buy what ever books are available for the series. Learn who the people are that specialize in it and get to know them. Then, learn to grade.
Buy the best quality coins within your budget, and try to cherrypick the rare varieties from the dealers and collectors that don't have knowledge of the series.
You'll have an enjoyable hobby, and when you tire of the series you're into, you'll probably realize a nice profit."
That's about as eloquently stated as can be, and excellent advice for any collector, whether they are contemplating quitting the hobby or not. Well done, Lathmach!
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Just stick to collecting Pissing Minutemen and you'll be fine.
Russ, NCNE >>
I thought that was him!!!
<< <i>No offense... but you sound like the type of person that's going to be paranoid about anything and everything you do... >>
Yep, you believe all the scares you read on the internet and when you hear about a crime clear across the country you keep your kids inside because it is likely to happen on your block next? Sound familiar?
Ever been burned on a lasered coin? Not yet? Probably the next one you buy though.
Good luck,
Jerry
So how do you know reputable?
<< <i>KingOfCoins FYI
I have seen More Silver Bars that were Drilled and filled
and More Gold Maple Leafs that were Counterfeit
Than I have seen lasered Coins. >>
And if you can not spot a counterfeit Maple leaf gold, you should not be buying them ... jmho
Give up if you like or must. So much for your crown.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
..."I can't quit you babe...but I'm going to put you down for a while..."
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
<< <i>Until recently, I thought a certain dealer/expert, who has written books on his area of interest, was reputable. Then, there were a number of issues that arose involving some questionable practices (standing behind the coins he sold as well as the coin doctoring issue). Though I've never bought from him, now I know I never will. So how do you know reputable? >>
Here in this post lies the real problem in Numismatics. One dealer/expert knows another is dishonest, yet won't divulge their identity.
So dishonest dealer continues to be dishonest, and 2nd dealer avoids any discomfort for being honest.
Same garbage occurs in every hospital, the code of silence for incompetence and dishonesty between doctors and nurses.
The nurses know who the 'dangerous' doctors are, but are silent for fear of losing their precious positions.
This forum was created, (hopefully) to inform the uninformed. When the jerk who doctor's his coins admitted it here a couple of weeks ago, most
of the dealers and collectors applauded his or her honesty to admit they were totally dishonest. About 10% of you correctly admonished the jerk, and stated so, however no one revealed the crook's name.
If those of you who are dealers and collectors want some respect, start listing names of dishonest dealers/sellers, so those of us who are not quite
as accomplished and knowlegable as you are, can benefit from your honesty, rather than feeling the hobby/profession is only for cheaters and
insiders. Unless of course you don't want them to retaliate and disclose some of your own shortcomings.
This post especially applies to Laura.
Dr. Steve
Looking for uncirculated Indian Heads and PRS electric guitars
<< <i>[You might want to change your username then
Yes, if you are going to start collecting bullion as you say, your new name should be KingofBull
How about bowling? After a lifetime living in the alleys of the world, what'll you have to show for it other than rotator cuff damage in your bowling shoulder? Are you going to be able to sell that beatup old bowling ball for many times what you paid? >>>
Hmmm, what you'll have is a lifetime of enjoying playing golf or bowling. Spending money on a sport or pastime you enjoy is not measured in financial returns. On the other hand, there are also many investors who bought expensive certified coins in 1988-89 who lost their shorts and will likely never see a profit or return of their investment.
In reality, KingofCoins fears and apprehensoins are well founded. The practice of doctoring coins is becoming more widespread every year and I have spotted enough to know it's no longer a trivial issue.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Unless you're a saavy collector or investor with a good eye and grading skills and a lot of experience and a bit of luck, coins are basically a money making deal for two entities.........dealers and grading services.
<< <i>I'm really disappointed, it's not a choice I like making..... >>
I understand your disappointment. I am as outraged toward these doctors as you. And I am disappointed in the tone of many posts directed to you here. Our time as collectors would be much better spent directing our outrage at the doctors and those dealers who keep them in business and acting upon it, and not blaming collectors for their inexperience.
<< <i> If you move on to Golf as a hobby instead of coin collecting, when you get old is the country club going to give you all the money back you've spent there? With interest? How about bowling? After a lifetime living in the alleys of the world, what'll you have to show for it other than rotator cuff damage in your bowling shoulder? Are you going to be able to sell that beatup old bowling ball for many times what you paid?
Ray >>
This is a poor analogy, Ray, though certainly I get your drift. In golf and other recreational hobbies, it is clear that the money expended is irretrievable. If you applied it to numismatics, you'd buy the coin, look at it, then throw it away. When I buy a coin, I am not charged a 15% premium for "pleasure derived," because the seller is deriving pleasure from me, too. It's a zero-sum game.
<< <i>I'll offer you some advise.
Pick a coin series that looks neat to you. Bust Half Dimes, Seated Half Dimes, whatever catches your interest.
Then buy what ever books are available for the series. Learn who the people are that specialize in it and get to know them. Then, learn to grade.
Buy the best quality coins within your budget, and try to cherrypick the rare varieties from the dealers and collectors that don't have knowledge of the series.
You'll have an enjoyable hobby, and when you tire of the series you're into, you'll probably realize a nice profit.
Ray >>
Now you're talking. That is terrific advice.
<< <i>
<< <i>Until recently, I thought a certain dealer/expert, who has written books on his area of interest, was reputable. Then, there were a number of issues that arose involving some questionable practices (standing behind the coins he sold as well as the coin doctoring issue). Though I've never bought from him, now I know I never will. So how do you know reputable? >>
Here in this post lies the real problem in Numismatics. One dealer/expert knows another is dishonest, yet won't divulge their identity.
So dishonest dealer continues to be dishonest, and 2nd dealer avoids any discomfort for being honest.
Same garbage occurs in every hospital, the code of silence for incompetence and dishonesty between doctors and nurses.
The nurses know who the 'dangerous' doctors are, but are silent for fear of losing their precious positions.
This forum was created, (hopefully) to inform the uninformed. When the jerk who doctor's his coins admitted it here a couple of weeks ago, most
of the dealers and collectors applauded his or her honesty to admit they were totally dishonest. About 10% of you correctly admonished the jerk, and stated so, however no one revealed the crook's name.
If those of you who are dealers and collectors want some respect, start listing names of dishonest dealers/sellers, so those of us who are not quite
as accomplished and knowlegable as you are, can benefit from your honesty, rather than feeling the hobby/profession is only for cheaters and
insiders. Unless of course you don't want them to retaliate and disclose some of your own shortcomings.
This post especially applies to Laura.
Dr. Steve >>
Steve,
I'm not a dealer, so if you're calling me an expert thank you. Anyone who reads this forum regularly should know exactly who I mean. I'm not trying to cover anything up or give you any kind of snow job here...
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>If you don't have enough knowledge of the hobby/industry to adequately protect yourself then you made the right choice. Good bye. >>
Tom, can you detect a lasered coin? I wonder if you'd mind sharing, so we might all "adequately protect ourselves" from getting ripped off.
L
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
<< <i>If you don't have enough knowledge of the hobby/industry to adequately protect yourself then you made the right choice. Good bye. >>
What's for dinner/snacks tonight, Michael?
Or could it?
Oh but never mind.
Even if they did do it we must forgive them for stealing from people because they are sorry they got caught or you will forever be a an idiot troll.
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
For example, I've never seen anyone present any actual evidence that they've been able to open and re-seal a slab so that it looks un-tampered with - not even with the new ANACS slabs.
Certainly, some types of coin doctoring are real, but I'll reserve my judgment about "lasering" until someone with some credibility posts about getting taken in by a "lasered" coin (like Laura Sperber did about a puttied coin a few years ago).
Check out the Southern Gold Society
Why buy $1000 coins now? Start collecting and learning from the bottom up, with cheaper coins. Buy the $1000 coins later, after you know how to protect yourself.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
While I can empathize with those who become discouraged in numismatics due to Killers and Murderers, Liars and THIEVES in this field...., running away does no good.
Just because someone died of an overdose of drugs on your street, do you move ?
While I can appreciate your concerns, a king of anything would not surrender his kingdom, would he ?
food for thought, my friend
Joe
I don't know that anybody actually put my theories to the test or came up with the idea separately or even if we're talking about the same thing. However, I don't think it could be done through a slab.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
I used to work with AMADA punch press and lasers.
To do any kind of altering to a coin, it would be impossible to do it with the coin in a slab. The heat needed to alter the coin would literally melt the slab. At least with the type of industrial/commercial lasers I worked with.
Manuel
SM1 calls me a troublemaker....
--------------------------------------------
Sunday August 19, 2007 9:17AM
A mentor awarded " YOU SUCK!!"
I can't fault you for reaching the decision that you reached, that's for sure. But all I can say from my own personal experience is that if you take the time to first learn what you're doing, and then focus (not try to spread yourself too thinly), I believe anyone do well in this hobby.
When I first got serious about collecting back in the mid 80's, I decided to focus on GSA dollars and toned Morgans. And you can bet there were plenty of doctors back then too. Anyway, I'm amazed today when I do offer a few pieces out of my collection what they bring on the open market.
It's been a fun and rewarding hobby for me, and I bet if I tote them all up, it'll be a very profitable hobby for me too. I compare coins to other hobbies and it's not even close.
For example, I figure my deer meat costs me only $388/pound.
I suppose FBL Franklins and FS Jeffersons are a possible (ab)use of this technology. Cutting and/or heating is different from old flows from high pressure minting and should be, in the end, detectable. I would be more concerned with the evolution of passable counterfeit die production in time with technogical advances. There is where fine scale imaging and precision lasers could present us with problems. Reminting off of original common date coins (though probably detectable with xray diffraction) or suitably prepared planchets could very well escape even expert detection. Really watch the Chinese to go in that direction. This is another reason to seriously know a very rare coin's condition census and the characteristics and provenances of the member pieces. A new one, when it comes to light, should be suspect and subjected to the most rigorous scrutiny.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>KingOfCoins,
I can't fault you for reaching the decision that you reached, that's for sure. But all I can say from my own personal experience is that if you take the time to first learn what you're doing, and then focus (not try to spread yourself too thinly), I believe anyone do well in this hobby.
When I first got serious about collecting back in the mid 80's, I decided to focus on GSA dollars and toned Morgans. And you can bet there were plenty of doctors back then too. Anyway, I'm amazed today when I do offer a few pieces out of my collection what they bring on the open market.
It's been a fun and rewarding hobby for me, and I bet if I tote them all up, it'll be a very profitable hobby for me too. I compare coins to other hobbies and it's not even close.
For example, I figure my deer meat costs me only $388/pound.
I like what I`m reading here.
Collectables are risky especially for the new or uninitiated. My main focus are Peace, 1878 - 1882 " S " mint Morgans, and proof Ikes. Why? Because I love them! Am I an expert? Not even close! But, with time, I have developed a keener eye for what I want out of them I would like to think and a somewhat better understanding of what to avoid. At this point, I love my Peace, early " S " mint Morgans, and Proof Ikes to give up on them.
<< <i>I've never known the U.S. Mint to sell or distribute counterfeit and doctored coins, so your worries are over. >>
How about the mint set coins polished by being tumbled with corn cobs?
Or the Sac dollars burnished after striking?
Or Matte proofs made by sandblasting or pickling in acid?