With all this lasering and doctoring, I'm seriously done with numismatics

KingOfCoins

I'm still fairly new to the hobby, but I just can't see myself putting alot of money into a coin when I don't know if it was repaired by some undetectable method.

At first I thought I would stick to PCGS slabbed coins and save me any trouble, then I read stories of lasering through the slab, and being able to remove the coin from the slab and stick another coin in.

This just ruins the fun for me. And I can't see putting $1,000 or more into 1 coin and 10 years later finding out it was doctored.

Instead I will put my money into gold and silver bullion. I am only 23 and was looking forward to many years of building sets and so forth, but I don't think I'm going to continue.

I'm really disappointed, it's not a choice I like making.....

Leiana

THIS is why coin doctors make me so upset. This exact reason. (Among others.)

People don't feel secure in the hobby anymore.

I wish you luck in your future endeavours.

-Amanda

RYK

There are many ways to enjoy the hobby without dealing with those nefarious coin doctors. If you really wanted to collect coins, you would find a way that suits you.

DUIGUY

Find a reputable dealer ( there are many here ) and build a set with their help .

Bear

Where there is money

involved, there is always

a touch of larceny.

dizzyfoxx

That part of this hobby is really a bummer. ...Although if you stick with reputable dealers and auctions, you will be just fine and you'll be able to comfortably enjoy this great hobby. There are 'clowns' in every hobby, you just need to learn how to best filter them out from your potential dealings.

Topdollarpaid

KingOfCoins FYI

I have seen More Silver Bars that were Drilled and filled

and More Gold Maple Leafs that were Counterfeit

Than I have seen lasered Coins.

Whizzard

<< <i>..... but I don't think I'm going to continue...... >>



You might want to change your username then

lathmach

If you're done, you're done. So long. Been nice to know ya.
There's always going to be people trying to cheat you, no matter what you do in life.
But consider this.
Collecting coins is not an investment, it's a hobby.
If you move on to Golf as a hobby instead of coin collecting, when you get old is the country club going to give you all the money back you've spent there? With interest?
How about bowling? After a lifetime living in the alleys of the world, what'll you have to show for it other than rotator cuff damage in your bowling shoulder? Are you going to be able to sell that beatup old bowling ball for many times what you paid?
I'll offer you some advise.
Pick a coin series that looks neat to you. Bust Half Dimes, Seated Half Dimes, whatever catches your interest.
Then buy what ever books are available for the series. Learn who the people are that specialize in it and get to know them. Then, learn to grade.
Buy the best quality coins within your budget, and try to cherrypick the rare varieties from the dealers and collectors that don't have knowledge of the series.
You'll have an enjoyable hobby, and when you tire of the series you're into, you'll probably realize a nice profit.

Ray

KingOfCoins

I have bought from a few reputable dealers in NY, and from some reputable online dealers, but how do I know they are up to date on all the new technologies of doctoring??

It seems like too much of a hassle to cover every angle.

I was going to bid on an 1880 seated dime on ebay yesterday, PCGS AU55 , and I just lost interest knowing that the slab or the coin might have been altered after it had been graded.

I'll probably run into the same thing with bullion, at least with bars.

Leiana

You know, not to sound caustic or anything, but I truly believe it is the buyer's responsibility to educate himself before making a purchase.

I have been taken in the past. But I have since educated myself and I can now avoid a similar situation.

Now if it was something I was interested in that was TOTALLY out of my league and comfort zone, like proof gold or something, I'm sure I would ask people I trusted for help before making a decision.

-Amanda

JrGMan2004

No offense... but you sound like the type of person that's going to be paranoid about anything and everything you do...

MrHalfDime

"If you're done, you're done. So long. Been nice to know ya.
There's always going to be people trying to cheat you, no matter what you do in life.
But consider this.
Collecting coins is not an investment, it's a hobby.
If you move on to Golf as a hobby instead of coin collecting, when you get old is the country club going to give you all the money back you've spent there? With interest?
How about bowling? After a lifetime living in the alleys of the world, what'll you have to show for it other than rotator cuff damage in your bowling shoulder? Are you going to be able to sell that beatup old bowling ball for many times what you paid?
I'll offer you some advise.
Pick a coin series that looks neat to you. Bust Half Dimes, Seated Half Dimes, whatever catches your interest.
Then buy what ever books are available for the series. Learn who the people are that specialize in it and get to know them. Then, learn to grade.
Buy the best quality coins within your budget, and try to cherrypick the rare varieties from the dealers and collectors that don't have knowledge of the series.
You'll have an enjoyable hobby, and when you tire of the series you're into, you'll probably realize a nice profit."

That's about as eloquently stated as can be, and excellent advice for any collector, whether they are contemplating quitting the hobby or not. Well done, Lathmach!

Russ

Just stick to collecting Pissing Minutemen and you'll be fine.

Russ, NCNE

ccr

<< <i>Just stick to collecting Pissing Minutemen and you'll be fine.

Russ, NCNE >>



I thought that was him!!! KinCoin - King Of Coin or LUCKOFTHEIRISH! .

notwilight

<< <i>No offense... but you sound like the type of person that's going to be paranoid about anything and everything you do... >>



Yep, you believe all the scares you read on the internet and when you hear about a crime clear across the country you keep your kids inside because it is likely to happen on your block next? Sound familiar?

Ever been burned on a lasered coin? Not yet? Probably the next one you buy though.

Good luck,
Jerry

Barry

Until recently, I thought a certain dealer/expert, who has written books on his area of interest, was reputable. Then, there were a number of issues that arose involving some questionable practices (standing behind the coins he sold as well as the coin doctoring issue). Though I've never bought from him, now I know I never will.

So how do you know reputable?

Myqqy

While I understand the concerns presented in the OP, I don't think that a true passion for numismatics would be killed that easily. If coins truly bring happiness to your life, then there are ways to educate and protect yourself as with any endeavor in life...

1921obsession

Where some of us see roadblocks, others see challenges.

rgl1345

<< <i>KingOfCoins FYI

I have seen More Silver Bars that were Drilled and filled

and More Gold Maple Leafs that were Counterfeit

Than I have seen lasered Coins. >>



And if you can not spot a counterfeit Maple leaf gold, you should not be buying them ... jmho

Coxe

Some coins are not worth the time and trouble of coin doctors. Plenty of them are still abundantly satisfying numismatically and even have upside potential. Die states or varieties of early copper and silver dollars (VAMs) are not good doctoring candidates because of the level of inspection involved in their collection but can be very rewarding and are in an intellectually stimulating part of numismatics.

Give up if you like or must. So much for your crown.

lkenefic

...All of this reminds me of a Led Zepplin tune:

..."I can't quit you babe...but I'm going to put you down for a while..."

aknow

<< <i>Until recently, I thought a certain dealer/expert, who has written books on his area of interest, was reputable. Then, there were a number of issues that arose involving some questionable practices (standing behind the coins he sold as well as the coin doctoring issue). Though I've never bought from him, now I know I never will. So how do you know reputable? >>


Here in this post lies the real problem in Numismatics. One dealer/expert knows another is dishonest, yet won't divulge their identity.
So dishonest dealer continues to be dishonest, and 2nd dealer avoids any discomfort for being honest.
Same garbage occurs in every hospital, the code of silence for incompetence and dishonesty between doctors and nurses.
The nurses know who the 'dangerous' doctors are, but are silent for fear of losing their precious positions.
This forum was created, (hopefully) to inform the uninformed. When the jerk who doctor's his coins admitted it here a couple of weeks ago, most
of the dealers and collectors applauded his or her honesty to admit they were totally dishonest. About 10% of you correctly admonished the jerk, and stated so, however no one revealed the crook's name.
If those of you who are dealers and collectors want some respect, start listing names of dishonest dealers/sellers, so those of us who are not quite
as accomplished and knowlegable as you are, can benefit from your honesty, rather than feeling the hobby/profession is only for cheaters and
insiders. Unless of course you don't want them to retaliate and disclose some of your own shortcomings.
This post especially applies to Laura.
Dr. Steve

Fletcher

<< <i>[You might want to change your username then >>



Yes, if you are going to start collecting bullion as you say, your new name should be KingofBull

dragon

<<< If you move on to Golf as a hobby instead of coin collecting, when you get old is the country club going to give you all the money back you've spent there? With interest?
How about bowling? After a lifetime living in the alleys of the world, what'll you have to show for it other than rotator cuff damage in your bowling shoulder? Are you going to be able to sell that beatup old bowling ball for many times what you paid? >>>



Hmmm, what you'll have is a lifetime of enjoying playing golf or bowling. Spending money on a sport or pastime you enjoy is not measured in financial returns. On the other hand, there are also many investors who bought expensive certified coins in 1988-89 who lost their shorts and will likely never see a profit or return of their investment.


In reality, KingofCoins fears and apprehensoins are well founded. The practice of doctoring coins is becoming more widespread every year and I have spotted enough to know it's no longer a trivial issue.

mrearlygold

Lifes so hard

dragon

......in addition, as far as investment returns, I'll bet that even with the recent bull market in coins, that for every collector or investor that's shown a nice profit in the past 20-30 yrs, at least 5-10X that number have lost money.


Unless you're a saavy collector or investor with a good eye and grading skills and a lot of experience and a bit of luck, coins are basically a money making deal for two entities.........dealers and grading services.

FatMan

<< <i>I'm really disappointed, it's not a choice I like making..... >>

I understand your disappointment. I am as outraged toward these doctors as you. And I am disappointed in the tone of many posts directed to you here. Our time as collectors would be much better spent directing our outrage at the doctors and those dealers who keep them in business and acting upon it, and not blaming collectors for their inexperience.

gyocomgd

<< <i> If you move on to Golf as a hobby instead of coin collecting, when you get old is the country club going to give you all the money back you've spent there? With interest? How about bowling? After a lifetime living in the alleys of the world, what'll you have to show for it other than rotator cuff damage in your bowling shoulder? Are you going to be able to sell that beatup old bowling ball for many times what you paid?
Ray >>



This is a poor analogy, Ray, though certainly I get your drift. In golf and other recreational hobbies, it is clear that the money expended is irretrievable. If you applied it to numismatics, you'd buy the coin, look at it, then throw it away. When I buy a coin, I am not charged a 15% premium for "pleasure derived," because the seller is deriving pleasure from me, too. It's a zero-sum game.

gyocomgd

<< <i>I'll offer you some advise.
Pick a coin series that looks neat to you. Bust Half Dimes, Seated Half Dimes, whatever catches your interest.
Then buy what ever books are available for the series. Learn who the people are that specialize in it and get to know them. Then, learn to grade.
Buy the best quality coins within your budget, and try to cherrypick the rare varieties from the dealers and collectors that don't have knowledge of the series.
You'll have an enjoyable hobby, and when you tire of the series you're into, you'll probably realize a nice profit.

Ray >>



Now you're talking. That is terrific advice.

Barry

<< <i>

<< <i>Until recently, I thought a certain dealer/expert, who has written books on his area of interest, was reputable. Then, there were a number of issues that arose involving some questionable practices (standing behind the coins he sold as well as the coin doctoring issue). Though I've never bought from him, now I know I never will. So how do you know reputable? >>


Here in this post lies the real problem in Numismatics. One dealer/expert knows another is dishonest, yet won't divulge their identity.
So dishonest dealer continues to be dishonest, and 2nd dealer avoids any discomfort for being honest.
Same garbage occurs in every hospital, the code of silence for incompetence and dishonesty between doctors and nurses.
The nurses know who the 'dangerous' doctors are, but are silent for fear of losing their precious positions.
This forum was created, (hopefully) to inform the uninformed. When the jerk who doctor's his coins admitted it here a couple of weeks ago, most
of the dealers and collectors applauded his or her honesty to admit they were totally dishonest. About 10% of you correctly admonished the jerk, and stated so, however no one revealed the crook's name.
If those of you who are dealers and collectors want some respect, start listing names of dishonest dealers/sellers, so those of us who are not quite
as accomplished and knowlegable as you are, can benefit from your honesty, rather than feeling the hobby/profession is only for cheaters and
insiders. Unless of course you don't want them to retaliate and disclose some of your own shortcomings.
This post especially applies to Laura.
Dr. Steve >>



Steve,
I'm not a dealer, so if you're calling me an expert thank you. Anyone who reads this forum regularly should know exactly who I mean. I'm not trying to cover anything up or give you any kind of snow job here...

TomB

If you don't have enough knowledge of the hobby/industry to adequately protect yourself then you made the right choice. Good bye.

gyocomgd

<< <i>If you don't have enough knowledge of the hobby/industry to adequately protect yourself then you made the right choice. Good bye. >>



Tom, can you detect a lasered coin? I wonder if you'd mind sharing, so we might all "adequately protect ourselves" from getting ripped off.

lkenefic

Absolutely...I've gotten to the point that for the series in which I'm interested, I can spot most doctored coins. I'd be hard pressed to spot a lasered one. I wouldn't have the first clue as to what I'd be loooking at.

L

michael

If you don't have enough knowledge of the hobby/industry to adequately protect yourself then you made the right choice. Good bye.

gyocomgd

<< <i>If you don't have enough knowledge of the hobby/industry to adequately protect yourself then you made the right choice. Good bye. >>



What's for dinner/snacks tonight, Michael?

13PacesEast

I agree. If you aren't smart enough to spot a fake or altered coin you shouldn't be buying coins. Use a reputable dealer person and that could never happen.
Or could it?
Oh but never mind.
Even if they did do it we must forgive them for stealing from people because they are sorry they got caught or you will forever be a an idiot troll.

DaveG

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think the stories you've heard are true?

For example, I've never seen anyone present any actual evidence that they've been able to open and re-seal a slab so that it looks un-tampered with - not even with the new ANACS slabs.

Certainly, some types of coin doctoring are real, but I'll reserve my judgment about "lasering" until someone with some credibility posts about getting taken in by a "lasered" coin (like Laura Sperber did about a puttied coin a few years ago).

MrEureka

I can't see putting $1,000 or more into 1 coin and 10 years later finding out it was doctored.

Why buy $1000 coins now? Start collecting and learning from the bottom up, with cheaper coins. Buy the $1000 coins later, after you know how to protect yourself.

TwoSides2aCoin

I've never known the U.S. Mint to sell or distribute counterfeit and doctored coins, so your worries are over.
While I can empathize with those who become discouraged in numismatics due to Killers and Murderers, Liars and THIEVES in this field...., running away does no good.
Just because someone died of an overdose of drugs on your street, do you move ?
While I can appreciate your concerns, a king of anything would not surrender his kingdom, would he ?

food for thought, my friend



Joe

jhar

I agree with Mr. Eureka I think he hit the nail on the head.

Frankcoins

I think "lasered" coins are an urban myth. Since coinage metals are excellent heat conductors, the whole coin would get ruined before anything could be "engraved." Lasers can trim sheet metals, up to about 3 mm, and they are popular because the trim is nice and smooth, because the ends are melted smooth!

Barry

Not all lasers remove material or cut by generating heat. For example, the excimer laser used for Lasik removes corneal tissue by breaking molecular bonds.

Fountainhead

Uhh, I wonder if I could be responsible for this "urban myth". I was at a coin auction a few years back and explained my theory that lasers could be applied constructively to enhance coins. I imagine that very few people would have access to the right sort of equipment and if you knew what to look for you could detect it under the right kind of microscope.

I don't know that anybody actually put my theories to the test or came up with the idea separately or even if we're talking about the same thing. However, I don't think it could be done through a slab.

Coxe

Urban myth or not, this is another argument for premiums on older holders.

hiyosilver

I used to work with AMADA punch press and lasers.

To do any kind of altering to a coin, it would be impossible to do it with the coin in a slab. The heat needed to alter the coin would literally melt the slab. At least with the type of industrial/commercial lasers I worked with.

Manuel

gsaguy

KingOfCoins,

I can't fault you for reaching the decision that you reached, that's for sure. But all I can say from my own personal experience is that if you take the time to first learn what you're doing, and then focus (not try to spread yourself too thinly), I believe anyone do well in this hobby.

When I first got serious about collecting back in the mid 80's, I decided to focus on GSA dollars and toned Morgans. And you can bet there were plenty of doctors back then too. Anyway, I'm amazed today when I do offer a few pieces out of my collection what they bring on the open market.

It's been a fun and rewarding hobby for me, and I bet if I tote them all up, it'll be a very profitable hobby for me too. I compare coins to other hobbies and it's not even close.

For example, I figure my deer meat costs me only $388/pound.

Coxe

That is the point I am making on old holders. They might be optically accommodating for some lasers and even if they were (though unlikely) for one that could alter a coin inside, the generated heat from the process could not be dissipated without affecting the plastic.

I suppose FBL Franklins and FS Jeffersons are a possible (ab)use of this technology. Cutting and/or heating is different from old flows from high pressure minting and should be, in the end, detectable. I would be more concerned with the evolution of passable counterfeit die production in time with technogical advances. There is where fine scale imaging and precision lasers could present us with problems. Reminting off of original common date coins (though probably detectable with xray diffraction) or suitably prepared planchets could very well escape even expert detection. Really watch the Chinese to go in that direction. This is another reason to seriously know a very rare coin's condition census and the characteristics and provenances of the member pieces. A new one, when it comes to light, should be suspect and subjected to the most rigorous scrutiny.

GAT

Goodbye, when were you ever into numismatics?

ccr

<< <i>KingOfCoins,

I can't fault you for reaching the decision that you reached, that's for sure. But all I can say from my own personal experience is that if you take the time to first learn what you're doing, and then focus (not try to spread yourself too thinly), I believe anyone do well in this hobby.

When I first got serious about collecting back in the mid 80's, I decided to focus on GSA dollars and toned Morgans. And you can bet there were plenty of doctors back then too. Anyway, I'm amazed today when I do offer a few pieces out of my collection what they bring on the open market.

It's been a fun and rewarding hobby for me, and I bet if I tote them all up, it'll be a very profitable hobby for me too. I compare coins to other hobbies and it's not even close.

For example, I figure my deer meat costs me only $388/pound. >>



I like what I`m reading here.

Collectables are risky especially for the new or uninitiated. My main focus are Peace, 1878 - 1882 " S " mint Morgans, and proof Ikes. Why? Because I love them! Am I an expert? Not even close! But, with time, I have developed a keener eye for what I want out of them I would like to think and a somewhat better understanding of what to avoid. At this point, I love my Peace, early " S " mint Morgans, and Proof Ikes to give up on them.

Frankcoins

<< <i>I've never known the U.S. Mint to sell or distribute counterfeit and doctored coins, so your worries are over. >>



How about the mint set coins polished by being tumbled with corn cobs?

Or the Sac dollars burnished after striking?

Or Matte proofs made by sandblasting or pickling in acid?