Options
Overheard at Superior Lot Viewing: "Do you think this is worth lasering?"
RKKay
Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭
RKKay
Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭
Comments
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
Yeah, but was it AT?!?!
<< <i>
<< <i>
Yeah, but was it AT?!?! >>
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
3 "DAMMIT BOYS"
4 "YOU SUCKS"
Numerous POTD (But NONE officially recognized)
Seated Halves are my specialty !
Seated Half set by date/mm COMPLETE !
Seated Half set by WB# - 289 down / 31 to go !!!!!
(1) "Smoebody smack him" from CornCobWipe !
IN MEMORY OF THE CUOF
I remember hearing, probably on this forum, that a coin can be tooled with a laser and it is usually undetectable.
A curious topic for sure!
I always thought lasers might someday be used to scan and grade coins objectively. As usual, the eeeevil* uses of lasers on coins will probably happen before the good ones.
*Meant to be said with emphasis, Dr. Evil style.
collections: Maryland related coins & exonumia, 7070 Type set, and Video Arcade Tokens.
The Low Budget Y2K Registry Set
<< <i>Is it possible that you misheard? Perhaps: "Which do you prefer, Fort Worth or La Serena?" >>
No that you mention it...
<< <i>Proof gold, I take it ???? >>
I assume, but I didn't look at the coin (He didn't ask me my opinion.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
Number Two: Ahem, that has already happened.
Dr. Evil: <<expletive deleted>>
That's a scary thought.
Now I don't which is worse. A laser counterfeit or an authentic that's been lasered. They're both "fakes", aren't they?
<< <i>Now I don't which is worse. A laser counterfeit or an authentic that's been lasered. They're both "fakes", aren't they? >>
One is faked, the other is ruined!
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>If undetectable laser created counterfeits hit the market the value of all rare coins will drop like a rock. >>
I don't know how much longer I can consider this hobby to be fun. There is no way to combat this type of stuff. No laws are being broken, just coins are being broken.
Jerry
<< <i> No laws are being broken, just coins are being broken.Jerry >>
I believe, that while perhaps no criminal laws are being broken, civil law wrongs are being committed. See below:
"Definition of Fraud
All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.
Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979"
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Now I r afraid..
So which CU Forum member said it?
<< <i>Dere's dat 'F' word again!
That is so yesterday. The bad term today is Open Forum.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>
<< <i> No laws are being broken, just coins are being broken.Jerry >>
I believe, that while perhaps no criminal laws are being broken, civil law wrongs are being committed. See below:
"Definition of Fraud
All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.
Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979" >>
Counselor Feld-- we need to get you a newer edition of Black's. 1979??
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
it`s a question of " when " ...............
".....No laws are being broken, just coins are being broken."
".....I believe, that while perhaps no criminal laws are being broken, civil law wrongs are being committed....."
Without the words 'COPY', isn't this counterfeit?
Jonathan
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I believe, that while perhaps no criminal laws are being broken, civil law wrongs are being committed. See below:
"Definition of Fraud
All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.
Mark - I think we can agree that dipping isn't fraud. I think we can also agree that using baking soda or MS 70 on a coin is not fraud. So, in the context of the definition above, what makes lasering coins so different that it constitutes fraud?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Wei - Care to bring us up to date?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Is it possible that you misheard? Perhaps: "Which do you prefer, Fort Worth or La Serena?" >>
Hoot
Dipping is / should be getting gunk off of the surfaces of a coin. It's a lot like removing dog**** from your shoe.
OTOH, an improperly dipped coin eats away at a coin's surfaces, ruins the flow lines and isn't fraud, because anyone who knows anything about coins can spot such a coin.
I don't know about baking soda. But based on what I know about how MS 70 can artificially change a PF copper's surfaces, I think that doing such to a PF copper and not disclosing it -- since not everyone knows about this -- at the minimum shows the intent to deceive, and possibly defraud a potential buyer if such tampering with the surfaces of said coin is not disclosed to a potential buyer.
If you think this is not fraud, I suggest you purchase a very expensive E & O policy and make sure that the premiums get paid.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>
Counselor Feld-- we need to get you a newer edition of Black's. 1979??
That's the same year I took Bus Law as a junior in college. I wonder if I still got mine laying around somewhere.
<< <i>"Definition of Fraud
All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.
Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979" >>
how does "fraud" apply to the improvement of appearance of a coin? does this mean that a single woman who wears makeup to enhance appearance before a date is committing FRAUD?
K S
<< <i>If undetectable laser created counterfeits hit the market the value of all rare coins will drop like a rock. >>
True. But the same could be said for toners and "undetectable" artificial toning.
The bottom line is that the bigger the money gets, the more dangerous it's becoming. Maybe I need to just accept that I should stick to $10 coins, ones for which the payoff isn't enough for the fakers, shakers and bakers to bother with.
That's a scary thought.
sweet
not me with all my crusty crunchy original and/or slightly rough around the edges pre 1915 coins that are still quite monster eye appealling and no worse for wear
..wear as in coins with wear coin grading and lazering will take away the wear
oh my
my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my
roadrunner
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>"Definition of Fraud
All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.
Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979" >>
how does "fraud" apply to the improvement of appearance of a coin? does this mean that a single woman who wears makeup to enhance appearance before a date is committing FRAUD?
K S >>
Karl, under the definition I quoted above, I would think if that "improvement" were made "to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth" it might qualify.
Your "single woman who wears makeup to enhance appearance" might qualify too, though it could depend upon what particular "advantage" she sought. For example, if she advertised herself as completely "original" and without makeup, won a beauty contest and it was later discovered she had worn makeup....you bet that she could forfeit her (fraudulently obtained) crown.
<< <i> For example, if she advertised herself as completely "original" and without makeup, won a beauty contest and it was later discovered she had worn makeup....you bet that she could forfeit her (fraudulently obtained) crown.
Back in the 1970s, I think that actually happened with the Miss America contest -- but it was a different type of "enhancement".
it's all about profit.
and if you do get caught... just say i'm sorry.
all will be forgiven and forgotten.
remember....
profit profit profit.
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
<< <i>Karl, under the definition I quoted above, I would think if that "improvement" were made "to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth" it might qualify.
Your "single woman who wears makeup to enhance appearance" might qualify too, though it could depend upon what particular "advantage" she sought. For example, if she advertised herself as completely "original" and without makeup, won a beauty contest and it was later discovered she had worn makeup....you bet that she could forfeit her (fraudulently obtained) crown. >>
so, it sounds like your saying there are "degrees" of fraud, therefore some fraud is acceptable & some is not.
sorry, but that sounds like a very slippery slope to me.
i think a better tact is to admit that "improving" coins IS NOT a fraudulent activity.
now, whether an improved coin is advertised as such is a different matter altogether.
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>Karl, under the definition I quoted above, I would think if that "improvement" were made "to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth" it might qualify.
Your "single woman who wears makeup to enhance appearance" might qualify too, though it could depend upon what particular "advantage" she sought. For example, if she advertised herself as completely "original" and without makeup, won a beauty contest and it was later discovered she had worn makeup....you bet that she could forfeit her (fraudulently obtained) crown. >>
so, it sounds like your saying there are "degrees" of fraud, therefore some fraud is acceptable & some is not.
sorry, but that sounds like a very slippery slope to me.
i think a better tact is to admit that "improving" coins IS NOT a fraudulent activity.
now, whether an improved coin is advertised as such is a different matter altogether.
K S >>
Karl, while I'm not sure if/where I actually said there are degrees of fraud, in the real world, there are. I found something for both first and second degree fraud, and it looked like the determining factor was the amount of $ involved.
For the record, I choose not to go along with your <<i think a better tact is to admit that "improving" coins IS NOT a fraudulent activity.>> To me, and possibly under the law, it would depend upon the reasons for the "improving" AND the subsequent representations made (or perhaps silence) by the one who did it.
<< <i>I choose not to go along with your <<i think a better tact is to admit that "improving" coins IS NOT a fraudulent activity.>> To me, and possibly under the law, it would depend upon the reasons for the "improving" AND the subsequent representations made (or perhaps silence) by the one who did it. >>
i understand that "fraud" is a legal term, & that for something to qualify as fraud, it MUST break a law. i am not aware of any law that excludes someone from cleaning, polishing, lasering, or doing whatever to a coin so long as it is not defaced. in fact, if i'm not mistaken, it is actually not even illegal to alter a date, say from 1944-d to 1914-d. now, it is illegal to SELL a 1944-d as a 1914-d, but i'm not aware of any laws disallowing such activity, & if it ain't against the law, it ain't fraud.
K S
<< <i>Dr. Evil: Back in the 90's, I developed a gold coin tooling machine which was in essence a sophisticated heat beam which we called a 'laser.' Using these 'lasers' we'd remove areas of unattractive toning that the numismatists called a 'blemish'.
Number Two: Ahem, that has already happened.
Dr. Evil: <<expletive deleted>> >>
So when in your development of the laser did you decide to attach them to sharks?
<< <i>
<< <i>I choose not to go along with your <<i think a better tact is to admit that "improving" coins IS NOT a fraudulent activity.>> To me, and possibly under the law, it would depend upon the reasons for the "improving" AND the subsequent representations made (or perhaps silence) by the one who did it. >>
i understand that "fraud" is a legal term, & that for something to qualify as fraud, it MUST break a law. i am not aware of any law that excludes someone from cleaning, polishing, lasering, or doing whatever to a coin so long as it is not defaced. in fact, if i'm not mistaken, it is actually not even illegal to alter a date, say from 1944-d to 1914-d. now, it is illegal to SELL a 1944-d as a 1914-d, but i'm not aware of any laws disallowing such activity, & if it ain't against the law, it ain't fraud.
K S >>
Karl, see the legal definition of fraud I had first cited. Depending upon the specific circumstances, it sure looks to me as if the activities you mentioned could easily be construed to be fraudulent, whether or not they have been specifically noted in fraud statutes.
<< <i>All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated. >>
how, in a legal sense, does removing a scratch from a coin either make a false suggestion or suppress the truth? how would that differ from waxing a used car & selling it w/out disclosing the wax job?
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated. >>
how, in a legal sense, does removing a scratch from a coin either make a false suggestion or suppress the truth? how would that differ from waxing a used car & selling it w/out disclosing the wax job?
K S >>
Karl, I'm beginning to think we're going to have to disagree here, but I will try again. If you wax a used car and pass it off as new, I believe that would be fraud. If you wax a used car and don't pass it off as new, that would not be fraud. That's why I had stated (and please note the AND part) "To me, and possibly under the law, it would depend upon the reasons for the "improving" AND the subsequent representations made (or perhaps silence) by the one who did it."
Correct.
It is not the act that is fraudulent, it is your actions after the act that may be fraud.
Joe.
<< <i> No laws are being broken, just coins are being broken.Jerry >>
Hmmm. I think there could be a quibble about whether laws are being broken when people deliberately alter coins to make them appear to be worth more, or outright forge coins:
18 USC § 331. Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
18 USC § 332. Debasement of coins; alteration of official scales, or embezzlement of metals
If any of the gold or silver coins struck or coined at any of the mints of the United States shall be debased, or made worse as to the proportion of fine gold or fine silver therein contained, or shall be of less weight or value than the same ought to be, pursuant to law, or if any of the scales or weights used at any of the mints or assay offices of the United States shall be defaced, altered, increased, or diminished through the fault or connivance of any officer or person employed at the said mints or assay offices, with a fraudulent intent; or if any such officer or person shall embezzle any of the metals at any time committed to his charge for the purpose of being coined, or any of the coins struck or coined at the said mints, or any medals, coins, or other moneys of said mints or assay offices at any time committed to his charge, or of which he may have assumed the charge, every such officer or person who commits any of the said offenses shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
18 USC § 485. Coins or bars
Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.
18 USC § 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title [1] or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
18 USC § 471. Obligations or securities of United States
Whoever, with intent to defraud, falsely makes, forges, counterfeits, or alters any obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.
18 USC § 472. Uttering counterfeit obligations or securities
Whoever, with intent to defraud, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or with like intent brings into the United States or keeps in possession or conceals any falsely made, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.
--
Here's one they could use to go after those Chinese gangsters marketing fake US Silver coins on ebay:
18 USC § 470. Counterfeit acts committed outside the United States
A person who, outside the United States, engages in the act of—
(1) making, dealing, or possessing any counterfeit obligation or other security of the United States; or
(2) making, dealing, or possessing any plate, stone, analog, digital, or electronic image, or other thing, or any part thereof, used to counterfeit such obligation or security,
if such act would constitute a violation of section 471, 473, or 474 if committed within the United States, shall be punished as is provided for the like offense within the United States.