UPDATED: Another Guy came in the shop today ...

VTCoins · August 4, 2006 7:00AM

... with a bunch of coins he bought off ebay. They were circulated and horribly cleaned and had grades of MS65 to 67.

One coin listed as $170,000 in MS65 in his Red Book, and he bought it for $800. He was planning on making a killing. He seemed a bit slow (45 years old ... lives with his parents ... said he was on Social Security), and said that he has spent all of his savings on coins on ebay.

I felt bad being the bearer of bad news, but the guy was getting royally screwed by ebay sellers. This poor guy didn't know any better.

He is waiting for his 1876-CC and 1878-CC Trade Dollars to come from China this week. I told him I would help him get his money back from PayPal.

Quite sad.

MadMarty · August 4, 2006 7:05AM

Sounds like people who bought Franklin Mint stuff in the 70s as an investment!

jayboxx · August 4, 2006 7:08AM

He seemed a bit slow (45 years old ... lives with his parents ... said he was on Social Security)

Sounds like people who bought Franklin Mint stuff in the 70s as an investment!

You are mean MadMarty!

VTCoins · August 4, 2006 7:08AM

Sounds like people who bought Franklin Mint stuff in the 70s as an investment!

Yep. This guy said he didn't have a job, and thought that he could buy these coins on eBay and make some money. He also had some NNC graded coins that were way off.

Leiana · August 4, 2006 7:10AM

That's very sad.

-Amanda

relayer · August 4, 2006 7:11AM

I made my first killing on eBay the same way.

I had been away from collecting since when the TPG's first started up and I couldn't remember which TPG was the right one.

I did have an ACG slab, so I bought 5 ACG slabs from Centsles. I paid about $600 for $4,500 worth of coins.

So when I received them I went to cash in my new found wealth at the local coin shop. He offered me $80 for the lot.
Remembering how bad the local shops used to low-ball me, I took them across town to the other shop - and he offered me $75

Both said "Don't buy that crap"

Fortunately I was able to return them to Centsles for a refund.

VTCoins · August 4, 2006 7:14AM

Fortunately I was able to return them to Centsles for a refund.

This guy is stuck with about $5,000 of crap. I could tell that this was a lot of money to the guy.

He said he doesn't want to collect coins anymore. I told him to buy only PCGS and NGC coins and offered to look at any future purchases from ebay for him to make sure he is getting a good deal. Hopefully he listened to me.

robertpr · August 4, 2006 7:17AM

<< Fortunately I was able to return them to Centsles for a refund.

This guy is stuck with about $5,000 of crap. I could tell that this was a lot of money to the guy.

He said he doesn't want to collect coins anymore. I told him to buy only PCGS and NGC coins and offered to look at any future purchases from ebay for him to make sure he is getting a good deal. Hopefully he listened to me. >>

Instead of encouraging him, you should have told him not buying coins would be a good idea. They're not an investment, and if he's spending what is to him a lot of money on them, it would be in his best interest to NOT buy coins.

DUIGUY · August 4, 2006 7:18AM

On the up side ( if any ) He will learn from this experience as many have myself included .

Good job on helping him get his money back !!

airplanenut · August 4, 2006 7:20AM

Sad story, but let's be honest--he doesn't have much money, doesn't know what he was doing, and thought he'd get rich quick... that's a recipe for disaster.

VTCoins · August 4, 2006 7:31AM

Instead of encouraging him, you should have told him not buying coins would be a good idea. They're not an investment, and if he's spending what is to him a lot of money on them, it would be in his best interest to NOT buy coins.

You may be right. I guess I wanted him to have a good experience with coins, and didn't want to discourage him.

Sad story, but let's be honest--he doesn't have much money, doesn't know what he was doing, and thought he'd get rich quick... that's a recipe for disaster.

I agree. But the guy seemed a bit slow and I think he was trying to help his family that was taking care of him. Real sad.

Russ · August 4, 2006 7:40AM

Is his name Barney?

Russ, NCNE

Flyfishguy · August 4, 2006 7:48AM

We had an eldery guy call us once (about a year ago) and tell me he bought $220,000 worth of coins mostly graded MS65-68 and wanted to sell them. At one point in the conversation he mentioned a "Telephone coin broker". I ask if he bought them through a telemarketer, he replied, "No, he's a coin broker, but he calls on the phone".

Make a long story short, most of his stuff was NTC coins WAY over graded. When he brought it in, it was worth about $20,000, not the $230,000 that he paid. He had sat on this stuff for about two years, and as you might guess, the "Broker" and company were nowhere to be found.

Wes Chormicle
www.allgoodcoin.com
St George, UT

arlea1957 · August 4, 2006 8:19AM

I was going to comment (jokingly) that this thread is useless without phone numbers....but the reality is that many of these people are buying with the best of intentions (if it's too good to be true...) and there are certainly enough not so nice people to take advantage of them.

BlindedByEgo · August 4, 2006 8:21AM

A fool and his money...

No to be too overly harsh, but when I read about people who are "kind of slow", but not so slow as to not be greedy... I get to thinking that they must be too dang smart for their own good.

Some of the most difficult people I have ever worked with are those who aren't very bright, but hold their own intelligence in high regard. They usually come off as too danged smart to learn something new.

I've never been able to save people from themselves.

PonyExpress8 · August 4, 2006 8:30AM

Tim, it sounds like you are doing the best you can for the guy and giving him some good advice. Too bad he hadn't met you before he started in buying on e-bay. Like any other collectible or investment you have to have knowledge, and if you don't you better have a trusted advisor guide you from the beginning while you work to gain some knowledge.

The disease of our society of a quick buck continues to grow more rampant all the time. Likely a result of the faster pace we all seem to live under, along with modern culture and media encouraging the pleasure of the very moment. Long-term thinking, much less actions to support long-term thinking are becoming pretty rare in our society.

E-bay has a purpose and technology makes it easier to bring together buyers and sellers from all over the world than ever before. But this story is sure a stark reminder of the dark side of that advancement.

ricko · August 4, 2006 8:50AM

Tim,
Thanks for helping him as best you could.... I feel sorry for people like this. You do operate to high standards and I have enjoyed dealing with you. I have also recommended your shop to others. Cheers, RickO

VTCoins · August 5, 2006 1:27AM

Thanks for helping him as best you could.... I feel sorry for people like this. You do operate to high standards and I have enjoyed dealing with you. I have also recommended your shop to others. Cheers, RickO

Thanks Rick. I'm a full time coin dealer, and I have to make a living, but I'm not going to compromise my principals for the big score. Definitely not worth it in the long run. I hope I got through to this guy to quit buying crap until he gets a bit more knowledgeable.

dizzyfoxx · August 5, 2006 1:29AM

That sucks!

lathmach · August 5, 2006 1:31AM

Another thing you could have done, was have him come onto the forum here.
He'd get a lot of good advise.

Ray

notwilight · August 5, 2006 1:37AM

This is sad but lets not blame e-bay or the internet. There are good sellers and bad seller on ebay just like in terrestrial life. This guy has probably been taken advantage of before. I'm an e-bay nut and I get a lot of good deals there especially on machine tools and motorcycle parts, but I tell my friends that e-bay isn't for everyone and they need to know how to buy and sell just like "real life".

I remember when I was young looking at the inflated prices in the red book thinking there was money to be made.

--Jerry

VTCoins · August 5, 2006 1:43AM

Another thing you could have done, was have him come onto the forum here.

Good idea. I'll have to edit this thread to take out that I described him as "slow".

This is sad but lets not blame e-bay or the internet.

I am definitely not blaming ebay or the internet. This guy could have bought these coins over the phone, on TV, at a flea market, in a shop or at a coin show just as easily.

majorbigtime · August 5, 2006 2:25AM

Caveat emptor at it's worst!

Such Ebay sellers should be sanctioned or banned IMO.

Doogy · August 5, 2006 2:57AM

<< Sounds like people who bought Franklin Mint stuff in the 70s as an investment! >>

I buy the 70's proof gold issues made by the Franklin Mint for small islands countries. I usually find them a bit under melt, which for .900 fine gold is a bit of an investment; as long as gold doesn't plummet. you're right though, for the fools that bought these in the 70s brand new from the "mint", these were no bargain.

Dennis88 · August 5, 2006 6:06AM

Give him a red book so he can study real coins. Maybe he then will be able to do something with it.....

Sad story

Dennis

GoldenEyeNumismatics · August 5, 2006 6:19AM

too bad...

Bryan1315 · August 5, 2006 6:35AM

<< Give him a red book so he can study real coins. Maybe he then will be able to do something with it..... >>

Didn't read this part "One coin listed as $170,000 in MS65 in his Red Book, and he bought it for $800" so I am guessing he has a Red Book

Elcontador · August 5, 2006 6:43AM

There is nothing you can do to help people like that. If they weren't cheated buying bad coins, they'd get equally cheated buying something else.

PS: The most difficult people I've had to deal with have been accomplished professionals who have done very well in one area and assumed because they were so skilled in their area of expertise, that it would automatically flow into any other area of their choosing.

At minimum, they lose thousands of dollars. At the worst, not only do they lose the thousands of dollars, but they have legal problems as well.

Coinosaurus · August 5, 2006 6:46AM

<< 

No to be too overly harsh, but when I read about people who are "kind of slow", but not so slow as to not be greedy... I get to thinking that they must be too dang smart for their own good.

>>

It's true, it is at least partly their own fault. That doesn't mean you can't be sympathetic nonetheless.

BlindedByEgo · August 8, 2006 7:32AM

<< 

<< 

No to be too overly harsh, but when I read about people who are "kind of slow", but not so slow as to not be greedy... I get to thinking that they must be too dang smart for their own good.

>>

It's true, it is at least partly their own fault. That doesn't mean you can't be sympathetic nonetheless. >>

Good point - and I probably sounded harsher than I felt. I hate to see anyone taken, but... It's not like he walked into a coin shop and some unscrupulous dealer took advantage of him - he was smart enough to get on a computer and sign up for Ebay, etc...

Every time I think of the word "sympathy", I remember my dad telling me that if I wanted it, to look it up in the dictionary, right between sh-t and syphillis.

ILikeMercs · August 8, 2006 8:19AM

<< Another thing you could have done, was have him come onto the forum here.

Good idea. I'll have to edit this thread to take out that I described him as "slow".

This is sad but lets not blame e-bay or the internet.

I am definitely not blaming ebay or the internet. This guy could have bought these coins over the phone, on TV, at a flea market, in a shop or at a coin show just as easily. >>

but not so "slow" as to think it was possible to make money on coins and do a bit of research with his red book. Yeah, I'd change the slow designation too. To opportunistic but uninformed.

drwstr123 · August 8, 2006 8:24AM

<< A fool and his money...

No to be too overly harsh, but when I read about people who are "kind of slow", but not so slow as to not be greedy... I get to thinking that they must be too dang smart for their own good.

Some of the most difficult people I have ever worked with are those who aren't very bright, but hold their own intelligence in high regard. They usually come off as too danged smart to learn something new.

I've never been able to save people from themselves. >>

Tim, First of all, my respect to you.

As a child, I was told, every time one enters a new field, there is a tution to be paid. That tuition can take many forms and applies to those who are slow, fast, and half-fast. That's our money in the form of Social Security he's pizzen away. I wonder if FDR had gambling in mind as a use for it when he created SS?

pontiacinf · August 8, 2006 9:07AM

<< I felt bad being the bearer of bad news, but the guy was getting royally screwed by ebay sellers. This poor guy didn't know any better. >>

the main reason why I wouldnt want to be a dealer in todays market. I always wonderd how dealers felt when a problem like this presents itself. Lets face it, there are alot of people that have been taken, and most are not "physically or mentally challenged" (better terms than "slow, lives with his parents")

Its a good thing that most people here on these boards expose the scumbags that prey on the uneducated, problem is for every one you take down, seems like 100 popup.

and then theres coin vault

VTCoins · August 9, 2006 3:49AM

I always wonderd how dealers felt when a problem like this presents itself.

This comes up quite often when I am buying jewelry. The markup in some cases is staggering in the jewelry world. Quite often, people will buy a diamond ring for $5,000 and hope to sell it to me for $2,500. Usually the ring is worth less than $1,000.

Lets face it, there are alot of people that have been taken, and most are not "physically or mentally challenged" (better terms than "slow, lives with his parents")

I really think this guy was "mentally challenged". If he was some slick dude trying to make a killing, I would have no sympathy for him.

messydesk · August 9, 2006 4:25AM

<< I really think this guy was "mentally challenged". If he was some slick dude trying to make a killing, I would have no sympathy for him. >>

Did he really want to collect coins in the first place, or just make some money? It doesn't sound like he was interested in collecting. It also sounds like he should have a conservator for his disposable income if your assessment is correct.

TheNumish · August 9, 2006 4:38AM

People do some crazy things for the quick buck. Was talking to a lady that owns a gift shop that sold Beanie Babies. She said when they were hot there would be people lined up when she opened her store to buy the new issues. Thought they were going to put their kids through college with Beanie Baby profits.

VTCoins · August 9, 2006 4:48AM

Did he really want to collect coins in the first place, or just make some money? It doesn't sound like he was interested in collecting. It also sounds like he should have a conservator for his disposable income if your assessment is correct.

I think he was trying to make money. His father came in with him, so hopefully he will stop him from buying on ebay.

VTCoins · August 31, 2006 6:36AM

Well ... I don't feel sorry for the guy now. He may have been dumb enough to buy counterfeit trade dollars from China off eBay ... but he was smart enough to swindle a local dealer into buying them!

This dealer brought the coins in to ask my opinion. I told him that they were fake, and the guy who sold them to him knew that they were fake. He was a bit upset to say the least!

I'll know not to do the seller any favors in the future. I offered to teach him about coins and I told him I would help him get his money back from PayPal for the fake coins.

A bit disheartening.

morgannut2 · August 31, 2006 6:49AM

Sounds like he has a major disability if he's medically recognised by Social Security to be on disability. Are his parents aware of his computer habits?

BlindedByEgo · August 31, 2006 6:58AM

<< Well ... I don't feel sorry for the guy now. He may have been dumb enough to buy counterfeit trade dollars from China off eBay ... but he was smart enough to swindle a local dealer into buying them!

This dealer brought the coins in to ask my opinion. I told him that they were fake, and the guy who sold them to him knew that they were fake. He was a bit upset to say the least!

I'll know not to do the seller any favors in the future. I offered to teach him about coins and I told him I would help him get his money back from PayPal for the fake coins.

A bit disheartening. >>

No good deed goes unpunished. Sorry to hear this.

OTOH, if the local competition buys fake trade dollars, it looks like your competition will be thinning out pretty quick.

Oldnewbie · August 31, 2006 7:04AM

Even worse, he might have thought YOU were the crook, and went to another dealer for a second opinion. Now he might be bad mouthing you around town thinking he was right.

BigE2 · August 31, 2006 11:00AM

<< Well ... I don't feel sorry for the guy now. He may have been dumb enough to buy counterfeit trade dollars from China off eBay ... but he was smart enough to swindle a local dealer into buying them!

This dealer brought the coins in to ask my opinion. I told him that they were fake, and the guy who sold them to him knew that they were fake. He was a bit upset to say the least!

I'll know not to do the seller any favors in the future. I offered to teach him about coins and I told him I would help him get his money back from PayPal for the fake coins.

A bit disheartening. >>

Don't be disheartened by that guy. Be disheartened by the other dealer buying the fake trade dollars!

StrikeOutXXX · August 31, 2006 11:04AM

<< Don't be disheartened by that guy. Be disheartened by the other dealer buying the fake trade dollars! >>

I hope this guy doesn't try to recoup his losses by selling them out of his shop or on eBay (Not accusing, just hoping). Did you and he discuss methods to dispose of or mark for training only purposes?

messydesk · August 31, 2006 11:22AM

I would offer to testify in court on behalf of the other dealer. Now it sounds like a farther/son con job. Whaddaya bet they're both looking for more Red trade dollars.

BigE2 · August 31, 2006 11:23AM

<< Sounds like people who bought Franklin Mint stuff in the 70s as an investment! >>

Huh. Weird "deja vu" moment for me there. About a month ago, I was asked to make an offer on a large collection of Franklin Mint ingots. This guy's parents were on FM's subscription plan and bought everything!
My offer was based on the metal content.
After being called several choice names, I tossed them the yellow pages and told them to shop it around.

This past Monday, he called me up. Seems he went to every local shop (and not so local) with the same results. One pawn shop told him they were "silver-plated".

Then he decided to do what so many have done upon getting such bad news. He tried selling on Ebay. Sold 1 set out of the 33 he had.

They were really upset when I told them the beautiful packaging would be tossed out and the bars melted.

Derek2100 · August 31, 2006 1:34PM

You never know whats going to walk in the shop. The worst is people who have some grossly overinflated idea of what their coins are worth.

CarlWohlforth · August 31, 2006 1:48PM

Thanks for the update. I'm really surprised to hear another shop bought those fake $s as real!!!

Man you should have seen the guy's face light up when I told him I like old coins. The guy was some hawker selling fake dollars to tourists in the Philippines when I was there last Christmas. These were very bad fakes. They were medallic reverses and very crude. He had both Trade and Seated Dollars. He was mystified when I said I liked them very much and would happily offer $3 US for one each. He started on a story, he would take a loss and let me have two for $30 and I started laughing. He wanted me to stop laughing so he could try his story on someone else, but I just couldn't stop laughing.

It is hard to stomach a loss. The temptation is huge to pass your loss on to another dummy. It is really turning out that the coin collecting hobby/biz is a place to weed out the honorable folks from those who have more flexible morals.

VTCoins · September 1, 2006 12:34AM

No good deed goes unpunished. Sorry to hear this.

Yup.

Even worse, he might have thought YOU were the crook, and went to another dealer for a second opinion. Now he might be bad mouthing you around town thinking he was right.

Hopefully that is not the case. I hadn't thought of that.

I hope this guy doesn't try to recoup his losses by selling them out of his shop or on eBay (Not accusing, just hoping). Did you and he discuss methods to dispose of or mark for training only purposes?

I hope so too. I haven't actually talked with the competitor. A dealer friend brought the coins down for my opinion, I recognised them immediately, and got the whole story.

About a month ago, I was asked to make an offer on a large collection of Franklin Mint ingots. This guy's parents were on FM's subscription plan and bought everything! My offer was based on the metal content. After being called several choice names, I tossed them the yellow pages and told them to shop it around.

Had a customer call me a "fargin' thief" because I offered him $40 for a bent, hollow 14K cross that I was going to scrap for $47. He said his wife paid $400 for the cross.

UPDATED: Another Guy came in the shop today ...

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