Two Buffaloes for your opinions please.... 1919-s and 1917-D

DMWJR · August 12, 2006 6:28AM

Guess the grades:

The first one is a 1919-s and this is one of my favorite photos. It catches the coin's essence perfectly. The 17-d is a little tricky, but I do disagree with PCGS on the grade.

SilverEagles92 · August 12, 2006 6:37AM

AU53
MS62

MacCrimmon · August 12, 2006 6:40AM

53
58

rec78 · August 12, 2006 6:50AM

45
63

Leiana · August 12, 2006 6:54AM

AU 50

MS 62

-Amanda

BillJones · August 12, 2006 6:56AM

AU-55

MS-64

Bruceswar · August 12, 2006 6:59AM

VF 35
AU 58

jdimmick · August 12, 2006 7:06AM

Au-53 on the 19-s. The strike is really soft, color is intresting

Ms-61 on the 17-d

BillJones · August 12, 2006 7:23AM

<< VF 35
AU 58 >>

Sorry guy. There is WAY too much luster in the fields of the 1919-S to call it a VF-35. The strike is soft, which is not unusual for the date. And there is a chance that the coin could be Mint State if I saw it in person, but the picture says "nice AU" to me.

STONE · August 12, 2006 7:47AM

IMHO the first coin looks no better than a 35.
the second looks 55ish.

I'm sorry, but my soft strike grading sucks.

Cam40 · August 12, 2006 7:50AM

toughies!
wag...62
and 64....

DMWJR · August 12, 2006 7:53AM

Just a quick comment on the strike issue. I'm not a buffalo expert but will say what I think about it in hopes that someone more knowledgable will educate me. I don't think the strike on the 1919-s is as soft as you perceive. There is some serious die erosion on the reverse die which makes it look more mushy than it really is. While the obverse may be a little soft, it is not the softest strike I have seen.

STONE · August 12, 2006 7:55AM

OK, I change my first guess to a 53. It's an interesting 1919-S that's all I've go to say.

coinkat · August 12, 2006 8:14AM

the 1919-s is real tough... I think it may be a 60

the 1917-D is very attractive and worth a strong 63 and has a reasonable shot at 64

DMWJR · August 12, 2006 10:55AM

I bought these coins years ago, and cracked them out to put in my book. The 1919-s was in a PCGS 62 holder. When it came back last week it was body bagged as "questionable color." Frankly, I don't see a think suspicious about the color, do you? In hand, this coin looks totally original. Yes, it has a weak strike and the reverse die was heavily erroded, but I love the coin.

The 17-d came back 62, and this coin in hand is much better than a 62. I just don't see it.

Shamika · August 12, 2006 11:36AM

Doug - We discussed these coins before.

The color on the 1919-S is pretty intense (perhaps too intense), but I've seen Buffalo's with this type of toning slabbed by PCGS. 1919-S is a date in the Buffalo nickel series that commonly has a weak strike. Serverely eroded dies are more the norm than the exception. As I mentioned earlier, I would have graded it MS62. Anyone who thinks this coin can't possibly be MS should take a look in aution archives at some of the 60-63 grades for this date.

Your 17-D has a powerful strike. There might be a bit of wear on the hip, but if not, this coin looks 64 easy. The 62 could very well be a compromise grade between AU and MS. You should resubmit.

tradedollarnut · August 12, 2006 11:41AM

61, 58

Bruceswar · August 12, 2006 12:07PM

<< 

<< VF 35
AU 58 >>

Sorry guy. There is WAY too much luster in the fields of the 1919-S to call it a VF-35. The strike is soft, which is not unusual for the date. And there is a chance that the coin could be Mint State if I saw it in person, but the picture says "nice AU" to me. >>

Thats fine and dandy if it is soft strike. Givin its luster does not mean it could still be circulated. The details are worn pretty flat. Die errosion or Weak Strike this is a coin I would pass on. I love the toning on the piece, but that strike would bother me to no end. The main problem I have with the coin is where is the Horn?

Shamika · August 12, 2006 12:22PM

<< The main problem I have with the coin is where is the Horn? >>

There are many dates in this series with missing horns. I've seen much worse than this particular case.

Leiana · August 12, 2006 12:27PM

Could someone please explain why the 1919S is a 62? There looks to be wear on the high points of the design, to me.

Do coins from corroded dies often have soft lustre?

-Amanda

DMWJR · August 12, 2006 12:29PM

<< 

<< 

<< VF 35
AU 58 >>

Sorry guy. There is WAY too much luster in the fields of the 1919-S to call it a VF-35. The strike is soft, which is not unusual for the date. And there is a chance that the coin could be Mint State if I saw it in person, but the picture says "nice AU" to me. >>

Thats fine and dandy if it is soft strike. Givin its luster does not mean it could still be circulated. The details are worn pretty flat. Die errosion or Weak Strike this is a coin I would pass on. I love the toning on the piece, but that strike would bother me to no end. The main problem I have with the coin is where is the Horn? >>

Show me a 1919-s with a full horn and you've won the lottery!

I think I can get it back in a holder. The graders just need to look at it a little closer. There is no wear on it either, and weak strike won't knock it out of MS grades in this series. The 17-d is a 64. I got robbed on that one.

ziggy29 · August 12, 2006 12:30PM

<< Could someone please explain why the 1919S is a 62? There looks to be wear on the high points of the design, to me. >>

I would guess it's somewhat charitable based on an acknowledgment that the coin is often weakly struck or with eroded dies, and perhaps a bump for the color. But to me, the color is in some ways a negative, because it makes it look more circulated on the high points...

Leiana · August 12, 2006 12:35PM

<< 

<< Could someone please explain why the 1919S is a 62? There looks to be wear on the high points of the design, to me. >>

I would guess it's somewhat charitable based on an acknowledgment that the coin is often weakly struck or with eroded dies, and perhaps a bump for the color. But to me, the color is in some ways a negative, because it makes it look more circulated on the high points... >>

The toning is what makes me think there is wear!

-Amanda

DMWJR · August 12, 2006 12:41PM

Amanda, to grade these early buffaloes from pictures is brutal. That's why you see a lot of guessing going on in this thread. You really have to see it in hand to know for sure.

I don't have and doctoring skills, so I have no idea how someone could put this type of toning on the coin.

ziggy29 · August 12, 2006 12:44PM

<< Amanda, to grade these early buffaloes from pictures is brutal. That's why you see a lot of guessing going on in this thread. You really have to see it in hand to know for sure. >>

I agree. All we have is the image. But the image does make it look like the coin has wear on the high points. All I can think of is that maybe with the coin in hand there are no luster breaks.

Leiana · August 12, 2006 12:45PM

<< Amanda, to grade these early buffaloes from pictures is brutal. That's why you see a lot of guessing going on in this thread. You really have to see it in hand to know for sure.

I don't have and doctoring skills, so I have no idea how someone could put this type of toning on the coin. >>

Yes, these early buffalos are hard.

I have never seen toning like that. It's very interesting.

I'd be worried about the toning if it was blue!

I think the toning is creating a bit of an optical illusion for me tonight.

-Amanda

Shamika · August 12, 2006 12:56PM

<< Do coins from corroded dies often have soft lustre? >>

Yes! Corroded and erroded dies will kill the luster on any coin.

The problem with this 19-S is that the toning appears to be caused by something the coin was resting against. As a result, the toning on the high points looks diferent that that in the fields. This can give the coin the false sense of wear. But to be fair, this can also cover up very slight wear as well.

Leiana · August 12, 2006 12:59PM

<< 

<< Do coins from corroded dies often have soft lustre? >>

Yes! Corroded and erroded dies will kill the luster on any coin.

The problem with this 19-S is that the toning appears to be caused by something the coin was resting against. As a result, the toning on the high points looks diferent that that in the fields. This can give the coin the false sense of wear. But to be fair, this can also cover up very slight wear as well. >>

Thank you, that clarifys things!

-Amanda

ziggy29 · August 12, 2006 1:02PM

<< [Yes! Corroded and erroded dies will kill the luster on any coin. >>

To elaborate more, luster is formed by the "flow lines" that radiate from the center of the coin out to the edge, like thousands and thousands of spokes on a wheel as metal moves during the intense pressure of striking. It is that effect which causes a lustrous coin to "cartwheel" in the light as the light reflects off of the flow lines.

Corroded and eroded dies can impede the orderly radiance of flow lines which create luster on a coin.

Bruceswar · August 12, 2006 2:42PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< VF 35
AU 58 >>

Sorry guy. There is WAY too much luster in the fields of the 1919-S to call it a VF-35. The strike is soft, which is not unusual for the date. And there is a chance that the coin could be Mint State if I saw it in person, but the picture says "nice AU" to me. >>

Thats fine and dandy if it is soft strike. Givin its luster does not mean it could still be circulated. The details are worn pretty flat. Die errosion or Weak Strike this is a coin I would pass on. I love the toning on the piece, but that strike would bother me to no end. The main problem I have with the coin is where is the Horn? >>

Show me a 1919-s with a full horn and you've won the lottery!

I think I can get it back in a holder. The graders just need to look at it a little closer. There is no wear on it either, and weak strike won't knock it out of MS grades in this series. The 17-d is a 64. I got robbed on that one. >>

I don't have to see a full horn, but any horn would be good.

Hoot · August 12, 2006 4:17PM

I'd call them an AU55 and an AU58, respectively, but the 19-D is a very tricky coin and should be seen in person to adequately grade.

Hoot

gyocomgd · August 12, 2006 9:35PM

The 19-D cleary shows wear from where I sit. The area high on the Buffalo's foreleg shows a strong break from the rest of the coin. The flatness high on the hip is too broadly plateaued to come from poor striking alone. The obverse shows an overall flatness on the high points from rim to rim that suggests it having been circulated.

The 17-D is very difficult. MS62 sounds reasonable; my guess is that one grader saw AU58, the other two saw rub but opted for MS62, and the majority ruled. The flatness on the hip again is wide enough to arouse suspicion, and I'll bet they all gave the coin an extra turn or two and took strongly into account the fact it is a 17-D. The hip is the only area where rub is blatantly obvious, the mushiness on the Buffalo's head and elsewhere makes it tough to discern. The remaining surfaces and looks very uniform. This seems the sort of coin that might be as tough to reconcile in hand as in looking at the photos.

It's very beautiful, and I understand and sympathize with your feeling that it deserves better than a 62. And on a magical day, it could pull higher than that.

BillJones · August 12, 2006 11:40PM

<< Show me a 1919-s with a full horn and you've won the lottery! >>

I guess I've won the lottery! I sold a 1919-S with a full years ago. It was a PCGS MS-64 and back then I got $4,000.00 for it.

Here's a picture of it. I took this picture before I had my photographic skills were as good as they are today.

<< Could someone please explain why the 1919S is a 62? There looks to be wear on the high points of the design, to me. >>

Many coins that get MS-61 and 62 grades are "super sliders" (high end AUs). You might call this "market grading." It's not really that evil because many collectors feel that a really pretty AU-58 example of a very scarce coin is just as desirable and valuable as an ugly MS-60 piece.

roadrunner · August 13, 2006 12:41AM

I would have picked MS61 and MS64. I don't see them lower than
AU58 and MS63. A 62 and 64 grade seem very legitimate imo.

roadrunner

Hoot · August 13, 2006 4:50AM

Bill - That's on hell of a '19-S you show!!! Ever try to find out if that coin now resides in a 65 holder? Amazing strike for that issue.

Hoot

BillJones · August 13, 2006 5:02AM

It went to a person who has one of the better PCGS registry sets. I don’t know her name on the PCGS site, but I’m guessing it’s still in the PCGS MS-64 holder.

Believe it or not I’ve also handled and NGC coin of the same date and grade, which was almost as nice.

Hoot · August 13, 2006 5:10AM

Thanks for the update, Bill. I would bet on a reasonably good day, that coin could get into a 65 holder, not that it necessarily matters to the current owner. I don't think I've ever seen as nice of a 19-S as the one you show. I'm sure the NGC piece is also nice, as you describe - great coins in and out of nearly all holders.

Hoot

LincolnCentMan · August 13, 2006 5:16AM

Show me a 1919-s with a full horn and you've won the lottery!

Woo hoo! I win! Paypal the funds to: lincolncent@hot.rr.com

Link

Link

I graded the 19-S VF35 also. It may be better by wear, but it's definatly one I'd pass on at any higher grade. I'd probably pass on it at VF given that I prefer untoned buffs.

David

koynekwest · August 13, 2006 5:22AM

Die erosion is as big of a problem-if not a bigger one-for Mint marked Buffs from 1919 thru 1925 as is the strike. The end result is the same, tho-a severe lack of detail.

Cam40 · August 13, 2006 6:53AM

woohoooo i nailed the `19 s.....i knew it was a about a 62 given it has virtually no signs of true circulating wear.
weak strikes are tough to differenciate bewteen wear and what and how it was minted.
the `17 d needs to be reviewed again imo.

gyocomgd · August 13, 2006 7:39AM

Corroded. But I'll get a better one with my 1/3 of the lottery winnings.

Shamika · August 13, 2006 9:27AM

<< Show me a 1919-s with a full horn and you've won the lottery!

Woo hoo! I win! Paypal the funds to: lincolncent@hot.rr.com >>

LincolnCentMan - First of all, we're talking lower mint state grades. MS64 and 65 don't count since you'd need to win the lottery just to afford these. Second of all, your second, fourth, and possible third example don't even have a "full horn". In fact, even your best example doesn't have what's known as a "full rounded horn".

Two Buffaloes for your opinions please.... 1919-s and 1917-D

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