How often do you strongly disagree with a grade assigned by PCGS or NGC?

dan1ecu · February 24, 2006 3:27AM

For those of you who consider yourselves experts in one or more series, roughly what percent of coins are mis-graded by one of the top two grading services?

For borderline coins, how often do you think the services are correct in deciding on the grade?

Dan

BECOKA · February 24, 2006 3:46AM

For Indian gold half eagles almost everything I have agreed with for PCGS. At least there were a couple of coins that were borderline and PCGS graded them on the high end of the lower grade so no complaints.

NGC has been all over the place on the Indian Half Eagles. Very Often over graded, sometimes undergraded, and sometimes but not as often accurately graded.

ANACS with what I have seen has been dead on with PCGS in this series.

Now with modern silver eagles no one is consistent. PCGS graded 50 thousand of these last year. There are lots of MS67 and MS68 coins being slabbed as MS69.

The only other series I have experience with is the Indian $10 Eagles and it is pretty much the same as the $5 scenario mentioned above.

Ronyahski · February 24, 2006 3:53AM

I'll interpret "strongly disagree" as a two point difference that has not yet been narrowed by upgrade. Up until a couple months ago, for all the years before that, I own 1 coin from PCGS that I strongly believe is two points undergraded, an 1878 20c in PR65CAM.

In the past two months, I've received three coins back from PCGS grading that are two points undergraded (and broken out of PCGS or NGC holders two points higher). What's up with recent PCGS grading?

DHeath · February 24, 2006 4:08AM

an example.

Julian · February 24, 2006 4:12AM

I disagree frequently (+/- 1pt) and strongly disagree (>1pt) often.

ER · February 24, 2006 4:13AM

Too many times. Can't give you a number, though.

LanLord · February 24, 2006 4:16AM

Apply for a job at PCGS, NCS or where ever, then come back here and bitch!

LincolnsRule · February 24, 2006 4:21AM

Some submissions, like < 10%. Some submissions 100%. It's whoever is doing the grading that day.

Barndog · February 24, 2006 4:26AM

I disagreed with many coins graded by NGC and NCS that were sold by Heritage in the Jules Reiver collection. Some stuff they called XF was clearly not. Some AU to AU-58 coins were XF to AU. Some AU-58 were mint state. Some mint state coins were overgraded by a point to a few points. All my opinion.

tradedollarnut · February 24, 2006 4:57AM

More often than I care to admit when auction lot viewing.

ms71 · February 24, 2006 4:58AM

Most often it's Indian half eagles and quarter eagles. I have seen many MS64s that have deep nasty gouges that, to me, would make them 62s at best.

JJM · February 24, 2006 5:05AM

Im not a expert in many series, but I think I know my way around a Morgan, and I see the hits on the cheeks and fields on PCGS/NGC MS63/64 coins and it makes me go back to some of mine that I have brought raw and graded 62 personally and go hmmmm,...I know theres additional things to take into account.......On a slightly same note, I have come to the conclusion that I have been overgrading and more liberal on VG-XF coins and much harder on MS coins, I just cant take hits and give it a 63.......Im not sure if this is a common grading tendency or not

MikeInFL · February 24, 2006 5:08AM

More often than not...Mike

Fairlaneman · February 24, 2006 5:08AM

If a person has a set standard that they use consistantly it would be very easy to disagree with one or maybe even both services regularly. Why ? Because they both have their own standard that they "try" to grade to and their standard just may not jive with yours.

It all boils down to what your standard is and if you keep your standard consistant.

Ken

ziggy29 · February 24, 2006 5:09AM

They're always way too tight on my coins and way too loose on everyone else's coins.

LincolnsRule · February 24, 2006 5:11AM

<< <i>It all boils down to what your standard is >>

And whether your standard is the pcgs standard of two years ago or the pcgs standard of today. Or the ngc or some others standard...

JJM · February 24, 2006 5:13AM

guess it will always be in a state of flux

FatMan · February 24, 2006 5:17AM

I'm no expert, but I find myself often puzzled by grades on slabs by both PCGS and NGC. For those of you who feel that the grading companies are near always accurate I suggest you go view the auction lots at the major shows. It is quite an education to look at 10 coins of the same date/mintmark at the same time. You will come out feeling very puzzled too.

MrEureka · February 24, 2006 5:24AM

For those of you who consider yourselves experts in one or more series, roughly what percent of coins are mis-graded by one of the top two grading services?

I'd say about 20%, with more than half of those "mistakes" behing within some reasonable degree of tolerance.

As a dealer, I don't mind the "mistakes" in the least, since inconsistent grading by the TPGs creates opportunities for me.

As a collector, I couldn't care less. I buy the coin, not the holder.

Elcontador · February 24, 2006 5:59AM

Depends on the series & what you mean by a strong disagreement. If you mean 2 points, I'd say rarely re Liberty Nickels in 6 holders. Ditto re SLQs.

I haven't seen nearly as many of them, but I'd say disturbingly often - a good 25% or more - MS 65 & MS 66 Seated & Trade $s (though since many I see are on the bourse floor, they are probably the ugliest for the grade). Add Barber Halves in 5 & 6 to the list.

In terms of a 1 point difference, I'd say a MAJORITY of the Barber Halves I've seen in 5 & 6. Figure 10% of Liberty Nickels in 6 holders & ditto re Standers in same grade.

From what I've seen, grading of Draped Bust material is all over the planet.

coinlieutenant · February 24, 2006 6:06AM

Not very often...~5%?

J

Edited to add...that is 5% that I think could be higher...it is much higher for those I think are overgraded.

braddick · February 24, 2006 6:15AM

PCGS and NGC grade heads and shoulders better than I do. On their worse day they're better graders than I am on my best day. And for that I easily forgive what I may believe are mistakes, as goodness knows, there would be multiples of those errors should I (or, even you??) grade professionally in their place.

AU58WALKERS · February 24, 2006 6:31AM

I don't consider my self as a "expert", but every time i pull my au58 walkers out of the safe
i disagree with the grades on the ones minted in the '40s.
Most of them look better than alot of ms65s i have looked at.

Strange thing is all of them minted prior to the 1940's that i own look to be high end au58s.
Guess they were just super tough on the late date walkers back in the eary days of tpg grading.

Ronyahski · February 24, 2006 6:33AM

<< <i>I disagree frequently (+/- 1pt) and strongly disagree (>1pt) often. >>

How can you often times be more than one point off from the TPGs?

OKbustchaser · February 24, 2006 7:07AM

Usually...mostly because I STILL say that if it has visible wear (irregardless of how it got there) IT CAN'T BE MS!!! I also still maintain that if it has rub in the fields then it can't be an AU--ie, wear on the high points of the coin.

mozin · February 24, 2006 11:21AM

PCGS is probably overgrading about 70% of the Bust Series AU coins by 2-5 points.

I think NGC overgrades AU Busties about 95% of the time. The problem with NGC is that their AU grades on Busties are only correct plus or minus 5-8 points. Buying an out of hand Bustie graded by NGC is a real gamble.

morgannut2 · February 24, 2006 2:25PM

For Morgans at Auction Lot Viewing--probably 75% are overgraded or problem coins. Probably 90% of NGC coins are at risk of downgrade of crossed to PCGS. In my submissions about 10% I diagree-- 3% too high, 7% too low. Except for prooflike Morgans--where they're totally inconsistant.

roadrunner · February 24, 2006 2:45PM

In mint state seated MS65 and up, I'd say the majority of what I see is in a higher holder than deserved. NGC far outranks PCGS in this area. I see very few NGC coins that I agree with. I suppose the ones that were decent left the market almost immediately...either to be tried again, or to be crossed to PCGS. I pay the most attention to no motto material, and esp seated halves and quarters. There is very little in holders that I concur with. Again, I'm sure anything decent for the grade is shipped out almost immediately to dealer's customers. What shows up at auctions tends to be the dregs, so it is no surprise that 3/4 or more of it is not very pleasing. Fresh collections (far and few between) are a welcome relief.

roadrunner

michael · February 27, 2006 1:26PM

well when i was in balty last dec and i viewed the auction lots i think all of their gross mistakes ngc and pcgs where in the auctions

i nearly passed out with what i saw shocking to say the least

airplanenut · February 27, 2006 1:36PM

I disagree sometimes, but far more with gold than any other. I really don't like MS60-62 where the lustre in front of Liberty is fully broken ($2.5-$10). I think they should all be AU...

LincolnCentMan · February 27, 2006 2:05PM

On PCGS I disagree on about 10% of the coins.... 5% too high, and 5% too low. On NGC I disagree about 2% that the grades are too low, about 10% that the grades are too high.

I frequently crack and resubmit coins where the bump in price matters. Generally, about half upgrade.

David

garsmith · February 27, 2006 2:13PM

<<How often do you strongly disagree with a grade assigned by PCGS or NGC?>>

every time they are wrong!

bestclser1 · February 27, 2006 3:49PM

<< <i><<How often do you strongly disagree with a grade assigned by PCGS or NGC?>>

every time they are wrong! >>

Me too!

jdimmick · February 27, 2006 6:32PM

I am much in agreement with the group. Most of the coins I buy raw especially from fresh sources come back pretty close to what I expected, and in some cases a point better lately. However, a majority of the coins I see on the bourse floors and in auction lot viewing I sit in amazement and wonder how they came up with the assigned grade. Sometimes thats why they are in the auction, or hanging around on the bourse show after show??

How often do you strongly disagree with a grade assigned by PCGS or NGC?

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