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1964 SMS set
MORGANHUNTER2
Posts: 4,473 ✭
The other day while browsing a locale coin dealer and chit chatting on Kennedies and such, he asked me if I have ever seen any 64SMS coins!
Well not trying to be stupid- because this is not my area of fortitude- I said nay- always thought the SMS sets were 65-67-duh.
The gent pulls out one set for my eyes- grading by our famous house- PCGS the JFK was a 67, the washie- a 67, the Roosie- a 65, the Jeff a 64FS, and the Linc- a 65rd- tells me the set is worth 25K, considering.
So just how many SMS sets were made? And why no publication in the pops or for that matter in a pricing guide?
Anyone?
Well not trying to be stupid- because this is not my area of fortitude- I said nay- always thought the SMS sets were 65-67-duh.
The gent pulls out one set for my eyes- grading by our famous house- PCGS the JFK was a 67, the washie- a 67, the Roosie- a 65, the Jeff a 64FS, and the Linc- a 65rd- tells me the set is worth 25K, considering.
So just how many SMS sets were made? And why no publication in the pops or for that matter in a pricing guide?
Anyone?
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Would the set in any grade be worth 25K? or more?
<< <i>Thanks Russ, but I checked the quarter and it shows a total of 27 graded so maybe the 50 figure is close to correct? >>
The pop report is wildly innacurate on these. Many crackouts and resubmissions. In fact, one of the Kennedys incorrectly shows up as a POP 1/0 MS68 business strike. The coin was sent to NGC and graded SP69 long ago, but has never been removed from the PCGS pop report.
<< <i>Would the set in any grade be worth 25K? >>
There was a complete set listed on eBay recently at $125K. The set was all higher grades than the dealer showed you and didn't sell. But $25K is not unreasonable for a set, even at the grades your dealer has. They are genuine modern rarities.
Russ, NCNE
what is paradoxical about the sets is that noone wants to hold them for any period of time, they always seem to be left wanting. i for one would be a proud owner if the price-tag weren't so prohibitive. they strike me as an accepted Modern Rarity that dealers outside of the niche can't resist, believing they'll make the big killing on an unsuspecting Modern Sucker. in the end they either go back to the consignor/owner or get sold(i presume) for a slight profit which only serves to push them further from the clutches of "strong hands" that would sit on 'em for a long time.
i think an un-reserved Heritage/Long Beach/Baltimore/ANA/Central States major appearance auction would be nice, helpful in establishing a baseline price for individual coins or a set. i doubt it will happen soon.
And another:Link
<< <i>i for one would be a proud owner if the price-tag weren't so prohibitive. >>
If I ever won the lotto, a set would be one of the first things I'd buy. And, it would be off the market until I became worm food.
Russ, NCNE
What baffles me is that I have searched the Philadelphia Mint archives and reviewed the Supervisor's correspondence file and the production records and there is no reference to these pieces. Even if they were just trial or experimental coins, the head of the Phila Mint would have to let his boss in DC, Eva Adams, know how the SMS coin experiment went. This process was going to change how the post '64 coins, for the foreseeable future at the time, were going to look.
Sadly, both Gilroy Roberts and Eva Adams, two people who might know the answer, died in the 1990's. Have never found any info on Michael Sura, Supr of the Phila. Mint at the time.
Joe
Looks like i have to go back there on Monday- I really hate going into coin shops, especially when mom won't let me have any of the candy.
From the dealer- the set is up for sale. Owner will take $32,500- firm.
Next stupid question- is the price a good one?
Before I jump to any conclusions on the grades that I mentioned- I will make sure of them all before doing anything stupid. I'm sure of the Kennedy and the Jeff- bein a FS, but my brain is lacking memory as to the grade- Ihate that about old age.
So would this be a good price or a ridiculous price on a 64SMS?
Lincoln ms64RB (1 last sold for $2350- 9/05-Heritage).
Jefferson ms67FS ( none sold in 67FS, a 68FS sold for 11.5 5/04-Heritage, a 67 sold for 4,140 9/004).
Roosevelt ms66 (No 66's sold or listed, a 68sold for 9.4 5/03, and a 67 sold for 4,025 1/05).
Washington ms65 (no 65's sold or listed, a 64 sold for 1,035-12/05 Heritage, and a 67 sold for 7,762-04.
Kennedy ms67 (None in 67, 1 69SP(NGC) sold for 9,487 -5/04- Heritage)
They are in a sequential order, if the buyer agrees to the price- this set is sold.
And I feel like a nice guy for mentioning it here.
Overall- If I had this kind of 'change' to toos today- I'd buy it for my self and sit on it for 20 years or so- then put it up for auction with a matching 1965-67 sets- all sequential.
Do you all think this is worth 32,500 as it is in a set?
Some got it ...some don't...............................
<< <i>This is an update and what the grades are EXACTLY.
Lincoln ms64RB (1 last sold for $2350- 9/05-Heritage).
Jefferson ms67FS ( none sold in 67FS, a 68FS sold for 11.5 5/04-Heritage, a 67 sold for 4,140 9/004).
Roosevelt ms66 (No 66's sold or listed, a 68sold for 9.4 5/03, and a 67 sold for 4,025 1/05).
Washington ms65 (no 65's sold or listed, a 64 sold for 1,035-12/05 Heritage, and a 67 sold for 7,762-04.
Kennedy ms67 (None in 67, 1 69SP(NGC) sold for 9,487 -5/04- Heritage)
They are in a sequential order, if the buyer agrees to the price- this set is sold.
And I feel like a nice guy for mentioning it here.
Overall- If I had this kind of 'change' to toos today- I'd buy it for my self and sit on it for 20 years or so- then put it up for auction with a matching 1965-67 sets- all sequential.
Do you all think this is worth 32,500 as it is in a set? >>
From the prices you posted, no.
From the difficulty in finding it, maybe.
If they have a similar "look" to them, then getting all of them together, possibly "yes"
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
when it comes to rarity, actual rarity and not artificial grade rarity, age is meaningless.
Some got it ...some don't.>>
Gemini:
With a census of less than 50 graded by the 2 TPG's at present and it does not seem like there is a match to any set, none showing it in pop reports. The fact that they were not set up as a Special Mint Set in 64, they were allegedly a specimen for what was to be the SMS-65-67. I find that he who has the gonads to want such a rarity- even if its less than 50 years- would pay a fair price for it. From what I have been told on this set- it was submitted in whole as a set- not piece mealed. So that to me lends provenance to the set, thus making it have a XX value.
<<From the prices you posted, no.
From the difficulty in finding it, maybe.
If they have a similar "look" to them, then getting all of them together, possibly "yes">>
Bochi:
OK a given on the price for a moment, difficulty in locating a set graded as it stands- that is provenance- that lends a X% to value.- Hell folks are paying silly money on a 95W SAE proof- raw as well as cert'd!
How can you go with a 'look'? Each coin is representative of itself- not all are made from same material, machine settings and pressure of each coin I'm sure was considered before an actual long run, but that is what a Specimen is about - a runnin test of the coin(s).
I can't locate an auction that has sold a complete set as I have stated- it is just piece meal.
<<worms wouldn't eat you!>>
Yes they would- I have enough fiber for them to live longer than me.
<< <i>Do you all think this is worth 32,500 as it is in a set? >>
I feel you only live once. If I had the change, I'd buy it. I'd hold the set for many years to come though. wish you well in whatever you decide
Oscar Wilde
Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.
Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>Dang, now I got to get rid of my 65 through 67 SMS sets. I thought I was putting together a simple little set to occupy me inbetween major purchases. And now I find out there is a rarity year set I can't afford. There is no justice. >>
.......Send them to ME.........................................
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I'm amazed at the info and the lack of the mint producing any info- are they embarrassed as to what happened, somewhat like the 33 St. Gaudens?
Now I wonder how many blunders the mint actually has hidden.
<< <i>See update in my other thread on brokering the Special set- amusing but informative. >>
Looks like that thread went "bye-bye"
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>See update in my other thread on brokering the Special set- amusing but informative. >>
Looks like that thread went "bye-bye" >>
What happened? We need an update on what happened.
I have one of these nickels. It's identical, insofar as I can tell, to what I would deem the "early" SMS pieces of 1965. I have no proof of this except my own eyes, but what is evident is that a number of 1965 SMS nickels were struck with very similar surface characteristics to the 1964 SMS piece that I have. As 1965 wore on, the process of producing the SMS coins improved and the finishes on the coins became more brilliant. By the end of the year (I will suggest), the process for production of SMS pieces had improved to the point that late 1965 SMS production pieces resemble more the 1966 SMS pieces, and not those of 1964.
I have a 1965 SMS nickel that resembles my 1964 SMS very closely. I believe that if a person wished to work diligently and long on this puzzle, the pieces could be put in place over time.
And a note to the old post: I don't believe that the Philadelphia records will have anything on these pieces. I believe that the San Bruno archives would be the most logical place to look.
One other note: I think the FS designation for these coins makes no more or less sense than doing it for all of the SMS Jeffs. And whether an FS 1964 SMS piece is fully struck or not would only be determined by examination of the population. It's rather silly IMO. The piece I have is an enchanting coin. Grades MS67 (PCGS).
Hoot
<< <i>worms wouldn't eat you! >>
judging from his icon, I think they already started
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
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I am really tempted to pick one of these sets up and hold out for my grandbaby now.
What do you think it could be worth in 20 years?
Chance favors the prepared mind.
I'm curious to know where these graded ones originally are found.
Are they found in a uncirculated mint set, or are they found in a proof set, or in a special mint set that is dated 1964?
<< <i>I have a dime for sale.and a quarter. >>
we've got a BST board for this, why put it in the coin forum?
Also, was each denomination struck from a single die pair?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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There's a big difference between a dozen struck and a dozen known. For all we know, the Mint could have melted many thousands of sets.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> Not sure but with only on the order of a dozen or so sets struck, it is unlikely different die pairings came into play.
There's a big difference between a dozen struck and a dozen known. For all we know, the Mint could have melted many thousands of sets. >>
True, except the prevailng story is that these few were struck as experimental trials in 1965 rather than some large group of unreleased '64 sets. Not sure if any documented story is out there. I have heard more speculation than anything else.
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MS67 for the Kennedy and the Washington make $25,000 alone.
<< <i>I believe these were presentation sets that may have originally included peace dollars. >>
Where have you heard that?
The 1964 Peace dollars were struck in 1964 and were an entirely different issue. Why would they strike 1964 SMS presentation sets in 1965 (when the 1964 SMS sets were struck) when there were 1964 proof sets. At the time those SMS sets weren't like some special finish release form this Mint like they are today. They were a consolation prize for a few years when they weren't going to bother with proof sets anymore. Far from anything really special worth presenting ... except perhaps as examples to the other mints if the detail was to be shifted form one mint to another.
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and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>I believe these were presentation sets that may have originally included peace dollars. >>
Now there's a thought that had never occured to me.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
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