1964 SMS set

MORGANHUNTER2

The other day while browsing a locale coin dealer and chit chatting on Kennedies and such, he asked me if I have ever seen any 64SMS coins!

Well not trying to be stupid- because this is not my area of fortitude- I said nay- always thought the SMS sets were 65-67-duh.

The gent pulls out one set for my eyes- grading by our famous house- PCGS the JFK was a 67, the washie- a 67, the Roosie- a 65, the Jeff a 64FS, and the Linc- a 65rd- tells me the set is worth 25K, considering.

So just how many SMS sets were made? And why no publication in the pops or for that matter in a pricing guide?

Anyone?

Russ

The estimates range from a low of 12 to a high of 50. There probably was about 20 or so. They are in the PCGS pop reports.

Russ, NCNE

RW

Well I have learned my "something new for the day." I had no idea there were 64SMS sets.

Cameonut

You were looking at a set that few will ever see.

MORGANHUNTER2

Thanks Russ, but I checked the quarter and it shows a total of 27 graded so maybe the 50 figure is close to correct?

Would the set in any grade be worth 25K? or more?

Russ

<< <i>Thanks Russ, but I checked the quarter and it shows a total of 27 graded so maybe the 50 figure is close to correct? >>



The pop report is wildly innacurate on these. Many crackouts and resubmissions. In fact, one of the Kennedys incorrectly shows up as a POP 1/0 MS68 business strike. The coin was sent to NGC and graded SP69 long ago, but has never been removed from the PCGS pop report.



<< <i>Would the set in any grade be worth 25K? >>



There was a complete set listed on eBay recently at $125K. The set was all higher grades than the dealer showed you and didn't sell. But $25K is not unreasonable for a set, even at the grades your dealer has. They are genuine modern rarities.

Russ, NCNE

dbldie55

There was a complete PCGS graded set, with an extra nickel, at the Portland ANA a couple years ago.

keets

the number of sets is generally accepted to be in the 12-20 range as stated by Russ, they show up with seeming regularity on eBay and TeleTrade as well as dealer showcases. i recall seeing a set in the case of Angel Dee's back at the 2003 ANA in Baltimore. they are an intriguing issue most probably trials for the upcoming SMS striking for 1965-1967 but there history isn't all that well documented. i recall that when they first started to appear most everyone was taken by surprise, almost as though they were a Numismatic Myth. some members had recollections of them going back a number of years and you might be able to search the archives and get some historical background.

what is paradoxical about the sets is that noone wants to hold them for any period of time, they always seem to be left wanting. i for one would be a proud owner if the price-tag weren't so prohibitive. they strike me as an accepted Modern Rarity that dealers outside of the niche can't resist, believing they'll make the big killing on an unsuspecting Modern Sucker. in the end they either go back to the consignor/owner or get sold(i presume) for a slight profit which only serves to push them further from the clutches of "strong hands" that would sit on 'em for a long time.

i think an un-reserved Heritage/Long Beach/Baltimore/ANA/Central States major appearance auction would be nice, helpful in establishing a baseline price for individual coins or a set. i doubt it will happen soon.

coinguy1

Here's an old thread on the topic:Link

And another:Link

Russ

<< <i>i for one would be a proud owner if the price-tag weren't so prohibitive. >>



If I ever won the lotto, a set would be one of the first things I'd buy. And, it would be off the market until I became worm food.

Russ, NCNE

PhillyJoe

These coins really intrigue me.

What baffles me is that I have searched the Philadelphia Mint archives and reviewed the Supervisor's correspondence file and the production records and there is no reference to these pieces. Even if they were just trial or experimental coins, the head of the Phila Mint would have to let his boss in DC, Eva Adams, know how the SMS coin experiment went. This process was going to change how the post '64 coins, for the foreseeable future at the time, were going to look.

Sadly, both Gilroy Roberts and Eva Adams, two people who might know the answer, died in the 1990's. Have never found any info on Michael Sura, Supr of the Phila. Mint at the time.

Joe

MORGANHUNTER2

He had 3 sets all total - and now I wonder if he would be willing to sell.

Looks like i have to go back there on Monday- I really hate going into coin shops, especially when mom won't let me have any of the candy.

MORGANHUNTER2

Well here's a nice awake call for me- I jump out of here to check my email- mostly porno junk, but one in the regular box

From the dealer- the set is up for sale. Owner will take $32,500- firm.

Next stupid question- is the price a good one?

Before I jump to any conclusions on the grades that I mentioned- I will make sure of them all before doing anything stupid. I'm sure of the Kennedy and the Jeff- bein a FS, but my brain is lacking memory as to the grade- Ihate that about old age.

So would this be a good price or a ridiculous price on a 64SMS?

MORGANHUNTER2

This is an update and what the grades are EXACTLY.

Lincoln ms64RB (1 last sold for $2350- 9/05-Heritage).
Jefferson ms67FS ( none sold in 67FS, a 68FS sold for 11.5 5/04-Heritage, a 67 sold for 4,140 9/004).
Roosevelt ms66 (No 66's sold or listed, a 68sold for 9.4 5/03, and a 67 sold for 4,025 1/05).
Washington ms65 (no 65's sold or listed, a 64 sold for 1,035-12/05 Heritage, and a 67 sold for 7,762-04.
Kennedy ms67 (None in 67, 1 69SP(NGC) sold for 9,487 -5/04- Heritage)

They are in a sequential order, if the buyer agrees to the price- this set is sold.

And I feel like a nice guy for mentioning it here.
Overall- If I had this kind of 'change' to toos today- I'd buy it for my self and sit on it for 20 years or so- then put it up for auction with a matching 1965-67 sets- all sequential.

Do you all think this is worth 32,500 as it is in a set?

Gemineye

That is quite a bit for a set that's not even 50 years old yet.Lotta bucks to plunk down..........
Some got it ...some don't...............................

Bochiman

<< <i>This is an update and what the grades are EXACTLY.

Lincoln ms64RB (1 last sold for $2350- 9/05-Heritage).
Jefferson ms67FS ( none sold in 67FS, a 68FS sold for 11.5 5/04-Heritage, a 67 sold for 4,140 9/004).
Roosevelt ms66 (No 66's sold or listed, a 68sold for 9.4 5/03, and a 67 sold for 4,025 1/05).
Washington ms65 (no 65's sold or listed, a 64 sold for 1,035-12/05 Heritage, and a 67 sold for 7,762-04.
Kennedy ms67 (None in 67, 1 69SP(NGC) sold for 9,487 -5/04- Heritage)

They are in a sequential order, if the buyer agrees to the price- this set is sold.

And I feel like a nice guy for mentioning it here.
Overall- If I had this kind of 'change' to toos today- I'd buy it for my self and sit on it for 20 years or so- then put it up for auction with a matching 1965-67 sets- all sequential.

Do you all think this is worth 32,500 as it is in a set? >>




From the prices you posted, no.
From the difficulty in finding it, maybe.
If they have a similar "look" to them, then getting all of them together, possibly "yes"

keets

That is quite a bit for a set that's not even 50 years old yet.

when it comes to rarity, actual rarity and not artificial grade rarity, age is meaningless.

mozeppa

worms wouldn't eat you!

MORGANHUNTER2

<<That is quite a bit for a set that's not even 50 years old yet.Lotta bucks to plunk down..........
Some got it ...some don't.>>
Gemini:

With a census of less than 50 graded by the 2 TPG's at present and it does not seem like there is a match to any set, none showing it in pop reports. The fact that they were not set up as a Special Mint Set in 64, they were allegedly a specimen for what was to be the SMS-65-67. I find that he who has the gonads to want such a rarity- even if its less than 50 years- would pay a fair price for it. From what I have been told on this set- it was submitted in whole as a set- not piece mealed. So that to me lends provenance to the set, thus making it have a XX value.

<<From the prices you posted, no.
From the difficulty in finding it, maybe.
If they have a similar "look" to them, then getting all of them together, possibly "yes">>

Bochi:
OK a given on the price for a moment, difficulty in locating a set graded as it stands- that is provenance- that lends a X% to value.- Hell folks are paying silly money on a 95W SAE proof- raw as well as cert'd!
How can you go with a 'look'? Each coin is representative of itself- not all are made from same material, machine settings and pressure of each coin I'm sure was considered before an actual long run, but that is what a Specimen is about - a runnin test of the coin(s).

I can't locate an auction that has sold a complete set as I have stated- it is just piece meal.

<<worms wouldn't eat you!>>
Yes they would- I have enough fiber for them to live longer than me.

LeeG

<< <i>Do you all think this is worth 32,500 as it is in a set? >>


I feel you only live once. If I had the change, I'd buy it. I'd hold the set for many years to come though. wish you well in whatever you decide

rmoss

Dang, now I got to get rid of my 65 through 67 SMS sets. I thought I was putting together a simple little set to occupy me inbetween major purchases. And now I find out there is a rarity year set I can't afford. There is no justice.

D

I'd buy it if I had the money. Simple logic says that the rare coins of today are the rare coins of tomorrow. You'll profit eventually.

-Daniel

MORGANHUNTER2

See update in my other thread on brokering the Special set- amusing but informative.

Gemineye

<< <i>Dang, now I got to get rid of my 65 through 67 SMS sets. I thought I was putting together a simple little set to occupy me inbetween major purchases. And now I find out there is a rarity year set I can't afford. There is no justice. >>



.......Send them to ME.........................................

DHeath

I'm quite interested in these sets, but have not been able to satisfy myself concerning their nature. I followed the chain of ownership back to Mr.Merkin's estate, and own the auction catalog from his estate sale, but that's where the trail ends. I have spoken with the buyer who purchased the sets at that auction, and who holdered most of the coins. The number of sets sold was quite small, and I have not heard of ANY from any other source, nor seen any account of their existence that predates that sale. The mint records have yet to surface explaining their existence, and may never due to the actions of Stella Hackel-Simms. It is a fascinating story. I hope Joe finds the answer.

MORGANHUNTER2

Thank you DH(not david) that is more fuel to this fire.

I'm amazed at the info and the lack of the mint producing any info- are they embarrassed as to what happened, somewhat like the 33 St. Gaudens?

Now I wonder how many blunders the mint actually has hidden.

MORGANHUNTER2

.

Bochiman

<< <i>See update in my other thread on brokering the Special set- amusing but informative. >>



Looks like that thread went "bye-bye"

DickyBetz

<< <i>

<< <i>See update in my other thread on brokering the Special set- amusing but informative. >>



Looks like that thread went "bye-bye" >>



What happened? We need an update on what happened.

Hoot

Here's what I wrote in the last thread:

I have one of these nickels. It's identical, insofar as I can tell, to what I would deem the "early" SMS pieces of 1965. I have no proof of this except my own eyes, but what is evident is that a number of 1965 SMS nickels were struck with very similar surface characteristics to the 1964 SMS piece that I have. As 1965 wore on, the process of producing the SMS coins improved and the finishes on the coins became more brilliant. By the end of the year (I will suggest), the process for production of SMS pieces had improved to the point that late 1965 SMS production pieces resemble more the 1966 SMS pieces, and not those of 1964.

I have a 1965 SMS nickel that resembles my 1964 SMS very closely. I believe that if a person wished to work diligently and long on this puzzle, the pieces could be put in place over time.

And a note to the old post: I don't believe that the Philadelphia records will have anything on these pieces. I believe that the San Bruno archives would be the most logical place to look.

One other note: I think the FS designation for these coins makes no more or less sense than doing it for all of the SMS Jeffs. And whether an FS 1964 SMS piece is fully struck or not would only be determined by examination of the population. It's rather silly IMO. The piece I have is an enchanting coin. Grades MS67 (PCGS).

Hoot

pontiacinf

<< <i>worms wouldn't eat you! >>



judging from his icon, I think they already started

DHeath

Cool post and coin Hoot. Thanks.

Coxe

Nice! really like the 1964 SMS set. I am assembling one too. Still need the nickel and the half. They are tough to locate. Valuing them is difficult because most collectors don't even realize they exist and sales records are sparse. I am not sure that I have ever seen a comlpete set anywhere. In fact, I am certain I have not seen two or more at one time except in my own partial set, assembled one by one. $25K for that particular set might be high. I'd try to talk the seller down where he/she makes a decent profit, as should be the case for assembling the set, but not at an outrageous level. In the future, 25K for it might seem like a bargain though. Should clad coinage continue to pick up momentum, collectors will undoubtedly become more knowledgeable about these rarities and the demand and pricing should shape up nicely. One would expect there to be a lot more collectors, given the knowledge of the 1964 SMS existance, than available coins to satisfy them, even at the higher valuation level.

MORGANHUNTER2

Just bring back an ol memory.

I am really tempted to pick one of these sets up and hold out for my grandbaby now.

What do you think it could be worth in 20 years?

airedale

Back to the old question, how do you really tell a SMS from a business strike. I think it is concluded that in 1965 through 1967 really great business strike coins are defaulted to SMS coins causing the business strike in higher grades to be more valuable. But in 1964? Do they come with some sort of paperwork?

keez

I'm curious to know where these graded ones originally are found.
Are they found in a uncirculated mint set, or are they found in a proof set, or in a special mint set that is dated 1964?

RBinTex

Can I buy 2 at 25k each?!?!?!?!?

08822

I have a dime for sale.and a quarter.

Doogy

<< <i>I have a dime for sale.and a quarter. >>




we've got a BST board for this, why put it in the coin forum?

08822

seemed like it fit the topic.

MrEureka

Does anyone know if these coins were struck from SMS-only dies?

Also, was each denomination struck from a single die pair?

KUCH

SMS means Special Mint Set, Right?

Coxe

Not sure but with only on the order of a dozen or so sets struck, it is unlikely different die pairings came into play.

MrEureka

Not sure but with only on the order of a dozen or so sets struck, it is unlikely different die pairings came into play.

There's a big difference between a dozen struck and a dozen known. For all we know, the Mint could have melted many thousands of sets.

Coxe

<< <i> Not sure but with only on the order of a dozen or so sets struck, it is unlikely different die pairings came into play.

There's a big difference between a dozen struck and a dozen known. For all we know, the Mint could have melted many thousands of sets. >>



True, except the prevailng story is that these few were struck as experimental trials in 1965 rather than some large group of unreleased '64 sets. Not sure if any documented story is out there. I have heard more speculation than anything else.

oldcameoproofsguy

$25,000 is a steal! Buy it!

MS67 for the Kennedy and the Washington make $25,000 alone.

08822

I believe these were presentation sets that may have originally included peace dollars.

Coxe

<< <i>I believe these were presentation sets that may have originally included peace dollars. >>



Where have you heard that?

The 1964 Peace dollars were struck in 1964 and were an entirely different issue. Why would they strike 1964 SMS presentation sets in 1965 (when the 1964 SMS sets were struck) when there were 1964 proof sets. At the time those SMS sets weren't like some special finish release form this Mint like they are today. They were a consolation prize for a few years when they weren't going to bother with proof sets anymore. Far from anything really special worth presenting ... except perhaps as examples to the other mints if the detail was to be shifted form one mint to another.

Moose1913

Good looking set.

DHeath

Nice quarter Mr. Lipka.

leothelyon

<< <i>I believe these were presentation sets that may have originally included peace dollars. >>



Now there's a thought that had never occured to me.


Leo