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The IRS sez you owe money- lots of it...do you
MORGANHUNTER2
Posts: 4,473 ✭
Tell them that you collect coins as a future investment to sell say in 10 years?
Do you tell them anything about what you collect?
this is a hypothetical issue.
Lets say for another giggle- you have not filed tax returns for - 15 yrs, but they finally found you, and you decide its time to fix the situation, but don't want to give up what you have been building into a nice little nest egg of coins.
Do you just pretend like they do not exist and not tell the IRS, and make a deal to pay back an adjusted sum of $$?
Or do you sell your collection wiithout there knowledge and still make an offer to settle for less than what you owe- and you make a decent profit from the sale of your collection.
What would you do?
and why?
Do you tell them anything about what you collect?
this is a hypothetical issue.
Lets say for another giggle- you have not filed tax returns for - 15 yrs, but they finally found you, and you decide its time to fix the situation, but don't want to give up what you have been building into a nice little nest egg of coins.
Do you just pretend like they do not exist and not tell the IRS, and make a deal to pay back an adjusted sum of $$?
Or do you sell your collection wiithout there knowledge and still make an offer to settle for less than what you owe- and you make a decent profit from the sale of your collection.
What would you do?
and why?
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Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
EBAY Items
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZrlamir
It's illegal to hide/withhold your current assets from the IRS. But...
If you had given all of those coins to your son, daughter, etc., with a value of less than $10,000 per year, then you don't really own them, now do you?
PCGS, ANACS, & NGC Certified Coins on My Website.
Sounds like dirty laundry doesn't it!
Joe
And let us say for the sake of it not happening to one of our friends here that the pooch finds out you have this massive collection- and now they want their money in full, do you tell the pooch to go pee on a tree?
Or book a flight to Belize with your holdings already ahead of you- for your future on a nice sandy beach..
Canada is tooo danm cold to live life.
This is getting to be fun- brain cells are kicking good today, must be the meds I'm on..
You bought a lot of coins with money instead of paying taxes. The IRS wants the money, so do you sell the coins and pay or pretend you don't have them and settle.
In order to settle the IRS will want an "assets statement". If you chose not to list your coins then you have "collected' a few "felonies". If the IRS can prove you have them, show that you bought them or prove later that you sold them, then you can find yourself in a cell with Richard Hatch and his "Bubba buddies" for a couple of years as well as confiscation of a lot of the future wages, assets etc. that your earn as an ex-con.
Now if 2-5 years in federal lockup doesn't bother you, then your choice would be different than mine. Then again, if you chose not to pay your taxes to begin with then you must be used to taking bigger risks in life than I would anyway.
And they got him on taxes
Paul
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Offers-in-compromise are almost never accepted these days. They haven't been in quite a while now. There is a formula for where it applies, but you have to owe something in the neighborbood of 10 times your gross yearly income plus your net worth. Saying you have no income won't work either.
Certain assets are not required by law to be reported. A very good tax attorney can help there.
I have a bit of knowledge in this area, due to someone close to me and a similar situation.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
no Perry- I'm not sure its hypothetical- I had a brainfart an hour ago and decided to think of something amusing to post.
And deadhorse is correct- no OIC's are being offered- it is a installment deal that can be had.
As for jail time- that won't happen unless you intentionally defraud the IRS or the Gov't- like Hatch did.
And as for Big Al- when he was busted for income tax evasion it was on the bootlegged booze- he purpotedly had 'no' income, they could not get the Valentines Day massacre to stick to him.
oh- I pay my fair share of taxes begrudgingly- and would love to see the day when the IRS is abolished, and a fair representation of a tax is presented to the PEOPLE, but as long as we fight stupid battles across the water, and keep the welfare rolls a runnin- I'll be long under the earth without seein the sun shine.
So it tis not I who may have this dilemma in life, but it may be someone we know - so help that person hide as much as you can- from the Idiots Runnin Society!
now that is sad to read- I for one would help any friend that belongs to the soon to be famous
Society Hating Indecent Taxation- yes folks it does spell out an prolific word that we as all able bodied Americans would like to see one day- a proper tax for a proper cause.
And I would help anyone hide something that the government has no right to take away - I do not owe the government anything, nor do I ask them for anything.
I file each year in a timely manner and pay what's owed, or get back what I overpayed.
I don't mess with the IRS and the IRS hasn't messed with me.
Ray
If you used Visa/MC/Amex, then you have a paper trail of your spending a mile long.
Every web site you visited, the works.
<< <i>I think I'll pass on helping someone hide all they can after not having filed for 15 years.
now that is sad to read- I for one would help any friend that belongs to the soon to be famous >>
Why is that sad? I'm all for helping friends out. I'd go broke myself doing it. But someone who can't conform to the society they and I live in by NOT EVEN filing certainly does not deserve help hiding ALL they can now that they've been caught. To be clear, when I refer to "hiding" I'm talking about illegally hiding. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that this person may lean towards the illegal.
<< <i>Society Hating Indecent Taxation- yes folks it does spell out an prolific word that we as all able bodied Americans would like to see one day- a proper tax for a proper cause.
And I would help anyone hide something that the government has no right to take away - I do not owe the government anything, nor do I ask them for anything. >>
Wow I don't know where to start with that. You may disagree as to where all your tax dollars go but you certainly owe a bit here and there. Are you saying you don't want anything that is funded by tax dollars nor do you use it?
<< <i>Nobody goes to jail for failure to file. That's not he way the law is written. >>
Thats not the point. Coins are not an income they are an asset. Before the IRS will "Settle" they will want an asset statement and then you can choose to list them or not. When you sign the statement, you better not be hiding assets.
<< <i>The less the IRS knows, the better you are.........Rick >>
That and --Se habla Espanol y Inglese?
They are well on their way to being famous.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>Hire a tax attorney to file an offer-in-compromise.
It's illegal to hide/withhold your current assets from the IRS. But...
If you had given all of those coins to your son, daughter, etc., with a value of less than $10,000 per year, then you don't really own them, now do you?
+1 This is exactly what I do.
I wonder if uncle sam takes food stamps for payment
Failure to file a return can land you in jail - see 26 USC § 7203 ("Willful failure to file return, supply information, or pay tax")
The statute of limitations never starts running until you actually file a return. However, once you file, the statute of limitations is either three or six years, depending on the amount of money involved.
It's not too late to file returns for previous years. It's possible you don't owe the government money for those years (for example, because your employer's withholding was greater than what you owed). If it turns out that you didn't owe the gov't money, it's unlikely they would make a case out of it. However, if you owe them money for some or all of those past years, you'll need to pay them back.
Fleeing the country is a bad idea - ever heard of extradition treaties?
I won't even comment on the notion of hiding assets from the government as part of the settlement process.
TorinoCobra71
Find a good tax lawyer, get a payment settlement then sell off enough of your coins to pay off Uncle Sam and file taxes every year from now on, whether or not you owe anything.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
Sounds pretty bogus to me. You may not have to report here and now, but it sure is income
To respond to a few thoughts that preambled here.
Everything you own could be considered an ASSET- the clothes on your back to the 5 cans of green beans in your pantry- it is an asset. Are you required to give the IRS a full breakdown of your assets? the answer is NO- if they want to know how many beans are in each can they can come over and count them.
I have a collection of books that I have purchased from many avenues of life- is the IRS gonna force me to sell my books? NO. Do they consider them an asset- NO. I also have a collection of salt and pepper shakers that date back a few years- is that an asset- NO. Am I required to list them in the inventory? NO.
the IRS wants to know if you own valuable art, land, boats, motorcycles, extra cars, expensive jewelry- something that can be sold like in a garage sale for a 'fair' dollar value.
Ah just so some of you understand- if you sell it on ebay- it is not necessarily a asset item- unless the item can be described as a tangible item.
How do I know all this - well smoe of the books I have actually go into what and what not the IRS has folly to.
I would help out a fellow man who feels as if his government was imposing an unjust tax upon him for some thing he does not owe to the government.
Is it illegal to not pay taxes? No, the question still remains- why must you pay a tax- who consigned to it?
One question was asked if I used anything that was funded by tax dollars- I truly don't know how to answer that- I'm still trying to figure out what I have used that tax dollars gave me a right to use freely.
I can't sleep in the white House, hel( I can't even go in and ask for a ham sandwich from the cook!
I can't ask the army to come over and get my neighbors to stop playing their thump music at 3:00 a.m. , they tell me to use the local cop(its his brats playin the music).
What has the government given to you that has been funded by tax dollars- welfare? i don't qualify- I hate to say it this way- but I'm a white male with a college degree capable of making a living without the assistance of the federal government.
I have yet to recieve a check from my government for just being an American- considering the federal deficit is in the Trillion of dollars, they, the government tell me I have to help bring this down by paying taxes for services renedered(?) What service has the government given to me? I still ask.
I have yet to see good representation from any elected official that has actually LISTENED to what I want to see my country do to make us prosper- instead they have the congressman that reps our area on a indictment for money laundering- hehe. we see today more corrupt political officials getting the axe handed to them- but yet- I am supposed to pay for these bozos retirement and they don't put penny one into a system that is supposed to eventually be there when I retire- OH that is what the government is giving to me- Social Security. I'd be curious to know if what I have paid into SS for the last 30 years will actually be able to support me when I do 'retire' from my regular day job.
sadly I have yet to use anything the government sez they provide for me, and I pay for my medical insurance, and pay for my food, just about like everyone else here, I work many hours for a company and they in turn give me money- somewhat like a 'barter' system. But they take out a federal tax, a social security and medicare amount equivalent to a % of what I - EARN. i guess anything I make above this figure is income.
what draws the line on income and starvation?
OK- flame me if you think I'm unAmerican- but really I'm not. What I am is a human being that is doing what our ancestors did to the English a 'few' years ago.
PCGS, ANACS, & NGC Certified Coins on My Website.
<< <i>Bravo MORGANHUNTER2!!! That was awesome. >>
Yeah awesome....but it don't mean sh!t. If you want to fudge with the IRS then good luck. Guess what... they always win. The only time you win is if you spend more on lawyers than you owe.
If you think that you can categorize 100K in rare coin as "beans in a can" good luck. Try leaving it off an assets statement and say "It was too small to mention." Maybe you can't see the benefit of you tax money, who cares, they don't, pay em. Maybe you think that income tax is unjust, maybe your right, who cares, they don't , pay em. You can't fight em. you can't ignore them, you can't hide form them, you can't BK them and good luck if you think you can fool them. They are the last ones you want to owe money to.
<< <i>Is there a line in the Constitution of our fine country that states We the People must pay a tax in order to live in the United States? >>
Many laws have been created in this country that were not in the constitution.
<< <i>
Is it illegal to not pay taxes? No, the question still remains- why must you pay a tax- who consigned to it? >>
Yes it is illegal, otherwise this thread probably would not have been created in the first place. Do you really think not paying taxes is legal?
<< <i>
What has the government given to you that has been funded by tax dollars- welfare? i don't qualify- I hate to say it this way- but I'm a white male with a college degree capable of making a living without the assistance of the federal government. >>
<< <i>
I can't ask the army to come over and get my neighbors to stop playing their thump music at 3:00 a.m. , they tell me to use the local cop(its his brats playin the music). >>
Whether it's the army or local police... they are still paid by our taxes one way or the other. So if you come home tomorrow and your house has been broken into and robbed and every material item you own has been taken away from you... are you NOT going to call the police... or will you solve the case yourself? >>
IMO, This country would fall apart and quickly lose it's world power and influence without taxes. Just pay em and live happily in America. Otherwise... move somewhere else. It's pretty simple really.
I went to a private catholic high school- no federal support, parents paid the way.. As for college- paid out of my pocket and a trust that my granparents set up for the grand kids- via a bank account- non interest bearing account I might add. It was 4K for each of us, the balance was paid by me in cold hard working cash...
<<Awesome?!? Sorry but some of this is just getting ridiculous.>>
why is it ridiculous? A question was asked and answered- opinions are just that a response- whether it be under reality or hypothetical- it is still an opinion- rational maybe not- but still.
<<Whether it's the army or local police... they are still paid by our taxes one way or the other. So if you come home tomorrow and your house has been broken into and robbed and every material item you own has been taken away from you... are you NOT going to call the police... or will you solve the case yourself? >>
I believe that only a portion of federal money goes to local law enforcement- of which my state tax pays for and my fed tax covers- but I don't ask them to come to my house to have dinner- nor are they invited. To have them come out to solve a break in? give me a break- they can't stop gang violence in this country - how do you think they are going to solve a break in?
<<If you think that you can categorize 100K in rare coin as "beans in a can" good luck. Try leaving it off an assets statement and say "It was too small to mention." Maybe you can't see the benefit of you tax money, who cares, they don't, pay em. Maybe you think that income tax is unjust, maybe your right, who cares, they don't , pay em. You can't fight em. you can't ignore them, you can't hide form them, you can't BK them and good luck if you think you can fool them. They are the last ones you want to owe money to.>>
Coin- apparently you are missing some points here- and this started out to be just a hypothetical issue, but as a few said- the collecting of coins with a value under 10K is not reportable as long as they have been given as gifts over a period of time. If most of us READ just what the IRS code is all about- then you would have known some of the questions that were posed here today.
Work the mind for what you have- when in doubt- look it up! never assume you can't fight them- it is your legal right to fight for what you feel is just, not give in to an unjust system.
What it boils down to- We as Americans are apathetic- we allow our government to get away with what they are doing today and what they have done for the last 100 years- have we progressed - no- if anything we are in a form of rule just like that of England back in the good ol days. And we allow it- why- because we are in a state of denial.
so much for some fighting Americans- I guess those that have balls fight, those that don't do as the government tells them to do.
Also, if you drive on any state highways or interstates, you need to ante up for your share of those infrastructure programs put in place by the government.
If you fly on an airplane, the skyways are made safe by the FAA - they pour tons of money into systems that make air traffic control a reality, be sure and ante up for this also.
Ever had to get any surgery done? Chances are that the research funds that made that surgery a reality for you came from federal grants (funded by tax money of course).
Do you like the computer you are typing on? The major development and push for smaller chips and circuitry was instigated by NASA, which, by the way, is funded by tax dollars. NASA had to find a way to make things smaller and smaller to get them into orbit.
I could go on but I think you get the picture. You actually benefit a lot more from federal tax dollars than you realize.
My Auctions
<<Also, if you drive on any state highways or interstates, you need to ante up for your share of those infrastructure programs put in place by the government.>> I buy fuel for my truck- so now I pay a tax twice!?
<<If you fly on an airplane, the skyways are made safe by the FAA - they pour tons of money into systems that make air traffic control a reality, be sure and ante up for this also.>> Actually its the airlines that have funded the largest portion for the FAA- feds only control it- besides the skyways are not safe- I revert to 9/11 as case in point.
<<Ever had to get any surgery done? Chances are that the research funds that made that surgery a reality for you came from federal grants (funded by tax money of course).>> I don't have a rare disease that needs to be fixed- and I have medical insurance that covers me for any surgery I may need not elect to have- gov't does not fund a medical program(ie- free med) as in many foriegn countries.
<<Do you like the computer you are typing on? The major development and push for smaller chips and circuitry was instigated by NASA, which, by the way, is funded by tax dollars. NASA had to find a way to make things smaller and smaller to get them into orbit.>> An agency started by Kennedy because the Russians beat us to outer spaceso a magnificent waste of tax dollars to watch people get killed when taking off or landing- I like giving my hard earned dollar for that!
<<I could go on but I think you get the picture. You actually benefit a lot more from federal tax dollars than you realize.>>
I probably would benefit from what my federal tax dollar is supposed to be doing FOR me- but as a whole- I nor you have a say in what or how our government can spend this money- maybe we need more research grants on how many times a rabbit mates in a year, or how much pot can be grown in a acre plot in Indiana, or how many coffee shops can be opened on a grant for 50K- and not have to pay it back.
You can get a LOAN from the gov't to start a biz, have it fail and file BK only to never pay the fed loan off, you can get a gov't grant to do research at a million only to have no findings, and never pay it back. Or, we can allow our gov't to send thousands of troops and spend billions of your tax dollar looking for WMD's and terrorists that may be linked to Osama (and why can't we find Osama?) but we can't feed or clothe the homeless or the destitute- this is what I want to pay taxes for- war and hypocrisy in the house.
why not ask your Congressional rep and Senate rep- why they don't pay into Social Security, but yet when they leave office they get a pension? After serving a 2 or 4 yr term.
You and I must work until we are 65 to collect ours!
And I am the bad guy- cuz you think I want to hide assets from the gov't, when in fact I pay more in tax than many of you- because I'm middle class, white and educated- not the top 20% of America, nor the lower 20%- I'm middle income American- we get stuck for all the bullchit that goes.
This is just a fact, not fiction- been discussed many times in many places, and yet we do nothing- apathy- look it up, it is what we are.
Great you put fuel in your truck... I'm sure you want roads to drive it on.
Are you seriously claiming that flying is unsafe because of 9/11. Give me an F'in break! Flying is one of the safest things we can do nowadays.
Thats great that your parents had money to pay for private catholic high school for you. Did you also go to a private elementary and middle school? If so, be happy that
your parents had a free education to get a job that paid well enough to put you through private school!
<< <i>give me a break- they can't stop gang violence in this country - how do you think they are going to solve a break in? >>
Oh you are right.. what was I thinking. I'm sure that when this happens you wont go running to your phone (if it's not stolen). You will just sit there and think, oh well... they wouldn't solve it anyway. Whatever man...
As for NASA being a waste of money... hahahaha I don't think you can even begin to realize how many of the everyday items people use were invented by NASA. Do you ever use a microwave or will you just say "I can cook my food over a fire that I made from logs I chopped down and grew myself". Almost everything comes from the government either directly or indirectly these days.
This has now gotten to the point of utter denial on your part. I don't like paying taxes out of my pocket anymore than you or anyone else for that matter, but if you can't see the benefits of a government tax program... then I would completely agree that you would live a happier life in a third world country.
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Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
The best advice is to file the returns because you might not even owe any money.
A client ignored a notice of intent to levy and today, they froze over 20K of her business bank account re taxes she does not owe. I immediately filed an appeal / protest, but I have to wait up to 60 days for them to process it.
If you want to play games with them, you will be looking at C.I.D. (criminal investigation division) and will do time. Ask that clown Schiff who is in the big house for telling everyone that payment of income taxes is 'voluntary.' He got what he deserved.
I don't bother with offers in compromise; they rarely do them now. The last one I did took 2 1/2 years to settle a "plain vanilla" situation; they are too labor intensive on my end to make them worthwhile for me to do.
You will be better off seeing a certified public accountant about this. Attorneys are paid to generate documents, not tax returns. 98% of them know nothing about income taxes, and those that do you can't afford to hire in the first place.
Get someone through a referral from a source you trust. You'll be asked for an up-front retainer and to sign an engagement letter. Review the terms of everything and make sure you agree before signing it. Don't even think about trying to ask for abatement of penalties or interest under these circumstances.
You will probably be offered an installment agreement, where they do a direct debit out of your bank account. See to it that none of the monthly payments are NSF, or they can void the agreement and attach everything you own.
And no, I don't do this sort of work anymore. It's too aggravating and time consuming. Good luck. You are about to get an expensive education.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<<As for NASA being a waste of money... hahahaha I don't think you can even begin to realize how many of the everyday items people use were invented by NASA. Do you ever use a microwave or will you just say "I can cook my food over a fire that I made from logs I chopped down and grew myself">.<< Almost everything comes from the government either directly or indirectly these days.>> This analogy is ludicrous!
Joefro- NASA invented TANG- not the microwave oven. Besides this- name 5 items you use everyday that NASA invented. - I don't use jet propulsion in my car, I'd get a speeding ticket.
I went to a catholic grade school as well- in my day there was no middle school, and kindegarten was not in our area.
As for the thief- well I have insurance- yep I would call the cops to come out do a report, and send the info to my carrier- you may want to look at the statistics of just how many cases are 'solved' by the police yearly in this particular area of crime. You'll find the stats on the computer that NASA did not invent also.
Gosh Longacre- do you give a refund if your calcs are off and the IRS hits a person with heavy penalties?
Elcontador:
The BEST advice and analogy I have seen thus far from any person using his brain cells.
all I did was invoke a thought of what people say every year at this time- why am I being taxed so much- when the guy down the road is paying nothing!?
THIS WAS ALL A HYPOTHETICAL IDEA/QUESTION.
All I have to say- we live in apathy- we are afraid to fight those that create laws to protect themselves- they are not helping you- and that is the sad part- we won't stand up for ourselves and demand what is right. No matter how many new laws are written to the Constitution- they have in many instances hurt our society, not furthered it along.
It was about a collection of coins and telling the IRS.
Do you report your collections each and every year on your 1040? It is an asset that you hold ya know!
Maybe this should be a new thread- do you reprt your collections.......