That's easy for you to say, Condor, because you don't collect slabbed coins.
When I invested in my coin collection (and 99% of the reason for doing has been for the fun of it.) I figured on numismatic market risk, environmental risk and in the case of my gold coins, bullion risk.
I never figured on a grading service WILLFULLY making my certification slabs obsolete.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Bill, I'm not saying it's a good thing, just that even with all the complaining, a year after such a change went into effect most of the coins at shows will be grading under the new system, the guides will be pricing in the new system, and collectors will be buying these newly graded coins. Sure every time someone wants to sell their old slabs it will boil up again and people will squawk for awhile again. And yes some people will take a big hit because of the expense of having to get their coins regraded, but that is part of the markt risk, just as it would be if for some reason PCGS or NGC decided to close up shop. Your slabs can become obsolete.
Besides the cost of regrading, I think there's a real risk that (for example) all current 65s may not grade the same in a new system, and there won't be a way to rely on the grade guarantee.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>I think there's a real risk that (for example) all current 65s may not grade the same in a new system, >>
All MS-65's won't grade the same on the current system if you send them all in again. (But as you say there is the grade guarantee n that case.) But since all 65's are NOT equal (even if they are 65's) when you send them in for the new system and they grade different that is just them spreading themselves out based on their differring quality and a grading guarantee would not apply anyway as long as the grade was in the 77 - 82 range.
I just got the luncheon invite also, mentioning the 100-point scale discussion, and thought about these poll results, which never varied much from 75% no votes versus about 18% yes votes, about 4 to 1 against a 100-point scale. Maybe there are folks who didn't get to vote yet, and we can see if the opinions change
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
I beleive the reason this discussion was first opened was for one reason. Dr. Sheldon was being discussed here in the forums and how he was a bad individual overall. That is where the idea originated I beleive for the 100 point grading scale. It was just an idea and what better way to get opinions from collectors than on the PCGS forum. I don't think it will be adopted but it was worth discussing. If Dr. Sheldon was such a bad person I don't think it matters that were using his scale.
Let's say it does change for some reason would a 700 scale be better instead? This way a MS 700 would be the same as an MS 70 an MS 69 an MS690 if it was a PQ coin then 695 etc. Maybe that will make a little more sense. Just another idea.
>>>Bill, I'm not trying to pick a fight so please don't read any "tone" in my arguement. However, if you're going to state "you can get different grades each time you submit the same coin" then why bother with the submission in the first place?
now thats the dumbest thing i have ever heard you say
aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh higher grades duh!!!
what he is saying is pcgs purposely under grades coins so you will have to resubmit again and again until it either grades at what he thinks it should or he runs out of money......or he comes to the conclusion his opinion was wrong
either one of the 3...........what he is saying is pcgs is greedy....
what he is saying is pcgs knows by properly grading coins accoding to the present standards that are in place they create wealth..........AND THEY WANT THEIR SHARE!!!!!!!!!!!!....the only way to do it is to make you resubmit again and again....so they purposely undergrade....thats on purpose ...with intent.....COMPRENDE
and dont read any bad tone into my words either but you need to advance your logic.....quickly
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
>>>PCGS contemplating changing the grading scale from 70 points to 100 is more about marketing than an evolutionary step forward for numismatics.
your absolutely out of your mind...........its about greed.....its about wallstreet.........its about MONEY........and money only period.......got it!!!!!!!
LET ME SHOUT FOR ALL OF YOU...ITS ONLY ABOUT THE MONEY
heck they cant even get 1 thru 70 how are they going to get 1 thru 100..........come give me a break
wake up people.ITS ABOUT MONEY!!!!!!!!...IUTS ABOUT A PUBLIC COMPANY QUADRUPLING THEIR FORWARD LOOKING INCOME STREAM..WHILE ROBBING THE HOBBY........THAT RIGHT SIPHONING MONEY RIGHT OUT OF THE HOBBY AND GOING TO THEIR POCKETS!!!!
ITS SIMPLE..................MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MONEY!!!!!!!
by the way...the get it right all the time...then can grade perfectly......and if they did grade perfectly( WHICH THEY CAN ) they would grade themselves right out of ta job!!!!!!!!
THEY ARE A CARTELL...........they control the supply what would happen if every coin got graded right this next quarter........they would
1) be out of a job 2) flood the market with tons of wealth with not enough buyers 3) create an immediate market crash
do you really think at the fun this year with all the auctions sucking 60 million out of the market in a few days...do you really think the seervices would tighten or loosen.....come on i told a 300,000 submitters not to submit....i told dont do it..........he did and got 670,000 worth of downgrades...........you read it right........lost nearly a million at the fun...........how bout that one...that will make you heart pump...and i was right around the corner when he was yelling at them...........actually he was discussing it...really........another 300000 worth of submissions and he got his 670,000 back and 200,000 more to boot...it only took a month
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
PCGS already has the capability to grade at >90% accuracy consistently with 3-4 graders each batting 75%....they just decline to do so.
The market already factors in about 30 MS grades already based on 11 MS points. And others toss "plus" signs on these subgrades as well. Such a system is already in place and it's called the coin market. The graders have the ability to differentiate to 20 or 30 MS grades, but they neither have the time nor the inclination to do so at the present.
I for one graded my coins in '87-'88, then did it again in 1997. I have no intention of doing so a 3rd time based on 100 pts. And as Bill said, getting them properly "regraded" often takes more than 1 try. Just a first gen and PQ coins bring different money than current average slabs, so would older style slabs (0-70 pts) in a brave new 100 pt world. We've made the transition a number of times over the past 30 years as market standards changed in 1977, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987-89, etc. Raw coins still sell for serious money between serious grader/buyers. The same will still occur for obsolete slabs if the system changes. We've done this in the past and can do it in the future. No need to run and regrade for a 100 pt system. Why cave in to that hype?
multiple grade system:
60 not ok, ok 61 not ok, ok, PQ 62 low, ave, high end 63, low, ave, PQ, high end 64 low, ave, PQ, high end 65 to 69... etc
>>>PCGS contemplating changing the grading scale from 70 points to 100 is more about marketing than an evolutionary step forward for numismatics.
your absolutely out of your mind...........its about greed.....its about wallstreet.........its about MONEY........and money only period.......got it!!!!!!!
LET ME SHOUT FOR ALL OF YOU...ITS ONLY ABOUT THE MONEY
heck they cant even get 1 thru 70 how are they going to get 1 thru 100..........come give me a break
wake up people.ITS ABOUT MONEY!!!!!!!!...IUTS ABOUT A PUBLIC COMPANY QUADRUPLING THEIR FORWARD LOOKING INCOME STREAM..WHILE ROBBING THE HOBBY........THAT RIGHT SIPHONING MONEY RIGHT OUT OF THE HOBBY AND GOING TO THEIR POCKETS!!!!
ITS SIMPLE..................MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MONEY!!!!!!!
by the way...the get it right all the time...then can grade perfectly......and if they did grade perfectly( WHICH THEY CAN ) they would grade themselves right out of ta job!!!!!!!!
THEY ARE A CARTELL...........they control the supply what would happen if every coin got graded right this next quarter........they would
1) be out of a job 2) flood the market with tons of wealth with not enough buyers 3) create an immediate market crash
do you really think at the fun this year with all the auctions sucking 60 million out of the market in a few days...do you really think the seervices would tighten or loosen.....come on i told a 300,000 submitters not to submit....i told dont do it..........he did and got 670,000 worth of downgrades...........you read it right........lost nearly a million at the fun...........how bout that one...that will make you heart pump...and i was right around the corner when he was yelling at them...........actually he was discussing it...really........another 300000 worth of submissions and he got his 670,000 back and 200,000 more to boot...it only took a month
monsterman >>
I'm really wondering if you are trying to say that it's all about the money? Just trying to be clear.
<< <i>I will not have my coins regraded. If this happens, I may very well leave the hobby. >>
I won't leave the hobby, but I won't have PCGS Grade anymore of my coins and I might not even buy anymore PCGS coins. But, NGC and ANACS, et al, will jump on the bandwagon, so all collectors will suffer What's a collector to do but buy only 70 point graded coins
I will repeat my comment from another thread on this subject:
It is abundantly clear that the subjectivity involved in grading leads to an obvious problem with consistency, using the 70 point scale we have now. Switching to a 100 point scale and thereby requiring or pretending that grading be even more precise would be absurd.
<< <i>I will repeat my comment from another thread on this subject:
It is abundantly clear that the subjectivity involved in grading leads to an obvious problem with consistency, using the 70 point scale we have now. Switching to a 100 point scale and thereby requiring or pretending that grading be even more precise would be absurd. >>
I echo Mark's comment in that broadening the grading scale will not mitigate any grading subjectivity. Contemplating change simply for the sake of change is fool's folly.
<< <i>It is abundantly clear that the subjectivity involved in grading leads to an obvious problem with consistency, using the 70 point scale we have now. Switching to a 100 point scale and thereby requiring or pretending that grading be even more precise would be absurd. >>
<< <i>I will repeat my comment from another thread on this subject:
It is abundantly clear that the subjectivity involved in grading leads to an obvious problem with consistency, using the 70 point scale we have now. Switching to a 100 point scale and thereby requiring or pretending that grading be even more precise would be absurd. >>
I echo Mark's comment in that broadening the grading scale will not mitigate any grading subjectivity. Contemplating change simply for the sake of change is fool's folly. >>
Well said, by you both. Brevity, clarity, and all that.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
I wonder if anybody else feels this is about MONEY $$$$$ ?
I was going to bring up the point that roadrunner made - just as the old "green label" & "rattlers" bring a different price than current slabs, a case could be made that coins holdered in the 70 scale holders would be more accurately graded. I think the vast quantity of coins already certified (in many cases after several submissions) using the 70 scale preempts using a 100 point system. There just isn't any way that collectors will turn in the grades that they are happy with for "regrading" or even reholdering (which would essentially be regrading, using a new scale) - even if it were offered free.
Too much collector backlash - I just can't see this new system flying. It's just much too transparent as a money-grab.
Don't you know that it's worth every treasure on Earth to be young at heart? And as rich as you are, it's much better by far, to be young at heart!
I vote no. If it is changed to the 100 pt scale-------I'm out of here!!!!! Some changes are good in life,but this is not one of them. Heck,I haven't figured out the 0-70 scale yet--still working on it. I see no advantage to the collector,just the TPG on regrading fees.
should PCGS and the other TPG's go to a 100-point grading system?
i do not know but something is in the works and will present itself as an evoluation in grading within the next 5 years or less weather i want it or not
but no matter what i am still in the hobby
just make sure that if you buy a coin in a holder currently that it is all there and if you crack this coin out of its respective holder it is worth as much or more as if it was still in the holder
if not
then let the buyer beware
and this in and of itself is okie just buy what you like with discretionary finds and buy truly scarce underapprecaited coins coins with historical interest and with eye appeal and you will do okie
I certainly disagree, michael, and hope you are alone in the "it's going to happen to me anyway, so I give up" club.
Based on the response to this poll, it is overwhelmingly opposed, and will only happen if we are silent and adopt your defeatist attitude. I note you also avoid addressing whether it's good for numismatics, or what the motives of pcgs are.
It's clear that it would have to forced upon an unwilling clientele. pcgs may feel this discussion alone will cause venting to occur now, that we will get used to the idea, and be too exhausted, or will adopt your attitude, when the time for a decision comes. We can make sure they are wrong in this surmise.
We can make this poll a strong statement, as it now is, and then we can keep our powder dry, for the battle that is coming. And then we must back up our words and votes here. We'll see if they still try to do it in the face of our opposition.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
If "it" is a 100 point system or a different scheme, will people adopt it in spite of their opposition? Unfortunately, yes.
Sad? Yes.
True? Yes, also.
Collectors surrendered their "rights" if you would when they began to (en mass) adopt TPG's opinion as a means by which to buy/sell coins. There is another thread going about tough to grade coins, right? Take a look at that. How many AU58 coins are in MS62 holders and sell for MS62 money? Boat loads...and they are the same coins that once were in AU58 holders, which sold for a lot less.
Conversely, how many people get coins in MS64 holders that they sell as such (believing the opinion of a TPG), and then these coins go in to MS66 holder, or even MS67? Boat loads...and they are still the same coin.
Perhaps a select few would hold out on principals if a new scheme was put in place, but they too will quickly succumb or will exit the hobby. And I say a select few...only.
We as collectors have allowed the top tier TPG's to become the Borg, and they will assimilate...it is in their nature and it is what they do.
I see this only affecting the registry crowd. If they change the scales, I would sell a coin (in the future): MS67 - 70 pt scale.
...it's still the same coin after all...
I doubt I would regrade any slabs, plp are familiar with the current system.
~g
I listen to your voice like it was music, [ y o u ' r e ] the song I want to know.
I'd give you the world, just because...
Speak to me of loved ones, favorite places and things, loves lost and gained, tears shed for joy and sorrow, of when I see the sparkle in your eye ... and the blackness when the dream dies, of lovers, fools, adventurers and kings while I sip my wine and contemplate the Chi.
Actually, if PCGS does this, this could be a way for NGC to increase its market share. All it would take is a savvy marketing campaign. If NGC kept the 70 point scale and PCGS went to a 100 point scale, if I stayed in the hobby, which would be a big 'if,' I'd be much more inclined to purchase NGC material.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
>>>We can make this poll a strong statement, as it now is, and then we can keep our powder dry, for the battle that is coming
this is just a trail ballon..........not only to see the responses to more importantly to plant a seed....a seed that when its omes up agin in a year or so it wont be new..........
the biggest problem they face is not in selling this garbage to us....the biggest problem is
the services looking at each other and in essence saying...you do and i`ll do it....but you do it first..i`ll be in next week to see if youve drown...no no you do it first...no you do it..no you do it...
not too tuff with 2 companies...but
remember miles standish.............if in fact he has gone to anacs...the situation changes big time......why...simple
i think anacs does a good job.....yes they are a tenth point or a 20th point behind the biggies but that where they want to be...with grade flation most anas coins will upgrade ( all this in theory )
if there is any decension in this 100 point scale between the 2 biggies then anacs could move in and sell market share from both biggies and this whole thing could blow up in their face
so stay tuned....this is big time money
AND AS I SAID
ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY....YOUR MONEY GOING INTO THEIR POCKETS....MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT
PERSONALLY I WOULD LIKE TO SEE 500 MILLION WORTH OF BUYERS ONEY OUT THERE RATHER THAN SEE 500 MILLION GO TO WALL STREET
GREEDY WALL STREET NEEDS TO STAY OUT OF OUR HOBBY
PERIOD
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>All of these posts (and there are a lot of good ones here) confirm what David Hall said last month on the Q&A Forum:
"I don't believe the numismatic community is ready for a 100 point scale"
Thank God!!!
>>
I'm not so sure "Thank God" is appropiate in this situation. Is it "Thank God" because of what David Hall said? Or is it "Thank God" because the numismatic community isn't ready for it? If it happens anyway without the numismatic community being ready then I would change what you said to "God Help Us."
So what does everyone think Mr. Hall is going to say at the luncheon in Orlando? If he's pushing the idea, what's his point going to be? That we're having a coin crunch at the MS65 to MS70 range? That a 100 point scale will sort these coins out to make coin collecting a better hobby in the long run? Is it possible to split the scale both ways for technical and eye appealing coins? Does DH kave something up his sleave to win over all the naysayers and other grading companies? Would this be a way to cripple a few of those nonsense grading companies? I would be interested in such a scale only if each and every grade was spelled out in precise descriptions and pictures........like colors for paint. Otherwise, the guessing game to why something didn't grade what is only going to get more confusing. Obviously, we're going to have more borderline coins then we've ever had before. I would like seeing separate scales for the technical and eye appealing coins just to see where collectors interests fall.
But on the other hand, as I have stated in another thread, revisions could simply be made to the existing scale to sort out the mess. Letters (could be implemented into the grade) that describe the strike, the condition and the eye appeal of a coin and further catagorizing could be accomplished in such a fashion that would satisfy both collectors and the stockholders.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
>>>revisions could simply be made to the existing scale to sort out the mess. Letters (could be implemented into the grade) that describe the strike, the condition and the eye appeal of a coin and further catagorizing could be accomplished in such a fashion that would satisfy both collectors and the stockholders
no to be a dick but there is no mess at all............the services constantly uindergade and this leads to frustration of people....they undergrade for one reason...to make money...they undergrade on purpose to make money because they want to ...they do this because they create so much wealth for a coin when they grade it right ....there are coins out there that would go from 150,000 to 500,000 with one grade...........DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY WANT TO DO THIS FOR A HUNDRED BUCKS!!!!!!!!!!
the present system has a 70 point ceiling in it and the are nearing the end of their gravey train.......so they want to sell it
this is a 500 million dollar deal they are trying to sell.........thats a ton of money....in fact its 16 years of seconds ticking on your watch for the next 16 years...i can see the money now!!!!!!!!!!
and all of it could and should be going into the coin hobby not some wall street thief
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
This whole thing about a 100 point grading system is being taken too seriously by some of you. David Hall is not in favor of it. I do not believe the majority of hobbyists are in favor of it. So what is the problem with discussing the subject and venting our concerns?
PCGS, UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD CHANGE TO A 100 POINT SYSTEM WITHOUT THE COMPLETE SUPPORT OF ALL THE OTHER MAJOR GRADING SERVICES AND A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS.
Bottom line, in this period of time in our collecting history, it just isn't going to happen IMHO. Steve
no to be a dick but there is no mess at all............the services constantly uindergade and this leads to frustration of people....they undergrade for one reason...to make money...they undergrade on purpose to make money because they want to ...they do this because they create so much wealth for a coin when they grade it right ....there are coins out there that would go from 150,000 to 500,000 with one grade...........DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY WANT TO DO THIS FOR A HUNDRED BUCKS!!!!!!!!!!
Either way, they'll still only make $100. The only reason I can think of, along the lines of your thinking, undergrading to safegaurd a coin's value and their guarantee and possibly someone's interest until it's sold to a peon like me! Not too long ago, I speculated a money shift to NGC when PCGS went through some kind of ethics cleansing of it's staff. It may of happened, I have no way of knowing since I'm not in the mainstream of the stronger series.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Don't be so sure of that Steve. If he were strongly against it, there's a good chance it wouldn't even be up for discussion at the luncheon.
<< <i>PCGS, UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD CHANGE TO A 100 POINT SYSTEM WITHOUT THE COMPLETE SUPPORT OF ALL THE OTHER MAJOR GRADING SERVICES AND A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS >>
Which other "major grading services" would you include in that emphatic statement?
I don't think "A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS" would necessarily be required, and certainly not their "COMPLETE SUPPORT". A change could be made if they thought the "right hobbyists" could be counted on for support, or if not that, counted on to follow those who would support the change.
Don't be so sure of that Steve. If he were strongly against it, there's a good chance it wouldn't even be up for discussion at the luncheon.
<< <i>PCGS, UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD CHANGE TO A 100 POINT SYSTEM WITHOUT THE COMPLETE SUPPORT OF ALL THE OTHER MAJOR GRADING SERVICES AND A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS >>
Which other "major grading services" would you include in that emphatic statement?
I don't think "A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS" would necessarily be required, and certainly not their "COMPLETE SUPPORT". A change could be made if they thought the "right hobbyists" could be counted on for support, or if not that, counted on to follow those who would support the change. >>
Whoever they were, they could easily make a small conversion chart that could fit in your bilfold!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I believe you are correct on both points, Mark. Therefore, we cannot be swayed by what he says, but be advised by what he does. And it is incumbent upon those who oppose this to strenuously and continuously express their opinions.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
It's starting to look like the tail wagging the dog, the dog being numismatics, the tail is pcgs. The dog in this case existed long before the tail came along, and the dog can exist without this particular tail, but the tail can't exist without the dog.
Whoever gets credit for coming up with tpg slabbing and grading, be it AH and ACG or someone else, it has been a useful tool of numismatics. But that's what it is, a tool. It's best not to forget that, especially now.
Whether the tail or tool analogy fits best, I believe that it's numismatics as a whole that must be considered to be most important in this discussion. The tps's will benefit. Will our hobby?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Don't be so sure of that Steve. If he were strongly against it, there's a good chance it wouldn't even be up for discussion at the luncheon.
<< <i>PCGS, UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD CHANGE TO A 100 POINT SYSTEM WITHOUT THE COMPLETE SUPPORT OF ALL THE OTHER MAJOR GRADING SERVICES AND A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS >>
Which other "major grading services" would you include in that emphatic statement? PCGS, NGC, ANACS.
I don't think "A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS" would necessarily be required, and certainly not their "COMPLETE SUPPORT". A change could be made if they thought the "right hobbyists" could be counted on for support, or if not that, counted on to follow those who would support the change. >>
Making "a change" is NOT something that can or will happen overnight. We have lived with the 70 point system now for at least thirty years. I think it goes back to the 1970's and the ANA grading system. Of course, the concept for 70 point system goes back to the 1940's, but whatever, the hobby has too much money invested in the current system to change it because ONE grading company thinks it will make lots of new money from regrading coins. Let's see where things stand in a year or two. JMHO. Steve
...."the services constantly uindergade and this leads to frustration of people....they undergrade for one reason...to make money...they undergrade on purpose to make money because they want to ...they do this because they create so much wealth for a coin when they grade it right."
I took the time to read all the responses to this thread. Some are very well written, some are very pasionate in their view, some more along the conformist line. I am against a change in the scale, like most I see no benifit to the hobby. The one way the TPG's could help the hobby is to impliment a computer grading system. The technology, hardware and software, is certainly avalible to scan a coins surface and assign a grade solely on its technical merits. A grader could then assign an eye-appeal designation and bang your done. Of course this system would take most of the subjectivity out of TPG grading which would lead to fewer resubmissions, thereby reducing the bottom line. A very bad thing for the TPG's anyway.
Comments
When I invested in my coin collection (and 99% of the reason for doing has been for the fun of it.) I figured on numismatic market risk, environmental risk and in the case of my gold coins, bullion risk.
I never figured on a grading service WILLFULLY making my certification slabs obsolete.
Blinky an da boss
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>I think there's a real risk that (for example) all current 65s may not grade the same in a new system, >>
All MS-65's won't grade the same on the current system if you send them all in again. (But as you say there is the grade guarantee n that case.) But since all 65's are NOT equal (even if they are 65's) when you send them in for the new system and they grade different that is just them spreading themselves out based on their differring quality and a grading guarantee would not apply anyway as long as the grade was in the 77 - 82 range.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Let's say it does change for some reason would a 700 scale be better instead? This way a MS 700 would be the same as an MS 70 an MS 69 an MS690 if it was a PQ coin then 695 etc. Maybe that will make a little more sense. Just another idea.
>>>Bill, I'm not trying to pick a fight so please don't read any "tone" in my arguement. However, if you're going to state "you can get different grades each time you submit the same coin" then why bother with the submission in the first place?
now thats the dumbest thing i have ever heard you say
aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh higher grades duh!!!
what he is saying is pcgs purposely under grades coins so you will have to resubmit again and again until it either grades at what he thinks it should or he runs out of money......or he comes to the conclusion his opinion was wrong
either one of the 3...........what he is saying is pcgs is greedy....
what he is saying is pcgs knows by properly grading coins accoding to the present standards that are in place they create wealth..........AND THEY WANT THEIR SHARE!!!!!!!!!!!!....the only way to do it is to make you resubmit again and again....so they purposely undergrade....thats on purpose ...with intent.....COMPRENDE
and dont read any bad tone into my words either but you need to advance your logic.....quickly
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
>>>PCGS contemplating changing the grading scale from 70 points to 100 is more about marketing than an evolutionary step forward for numismatics.
your absolutely out of your mind...........its about greed.....its about wallstreet.........its about MONEY........and money only period.......got it!!!!!!!
LET ME SHOUT FOR ALL OF YOU...ITS ONLY ABOUT THE MONEY
heck they cant even get 1 thru 70 how are they going to get 1 thru 100..........come give me a break
wake up people.ITS ABOUT MONEY!!!!!!!!...IUTS ABOUT A PUBLIC COMPANY QUADRUPLING THEIR FORWARD LOOKING INCOME STREAM..WHILE ROBBING THE HOBBY........THAT RIGHT SIPHONING MONEY RIGHT OUT OF THE HOBBY AND GOING TO THEIR POCKETS!!!!
ITS SIMPLE..................MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MONEY!!!!!!!
by the way...the get it right all the time...then can grade perfectly......and if they did grade perfectly( WHICH THEY CAN ) they would grade themselves right out of ta job!!!!!!!!
THEY ARE A CARTELL...........they control the supply what would happen if every coin got graded right this next quarter........they would
1) be out of a job
2) flood the market with tons of wealth with not enough buyers
3) create an immediate market crash
do you really think at the fun this year with all the auctions sucking 60 million out of the market in a few days...do you really think the seervices would tighten or loosen.....come on i told a 300,000 submitters not to submit....i told dont do it..........he did and got 670,000 worth of downgrades...........you read it right........lost nearly a million at the fun...........how bout that one...that will make you heart pump...and i was right around the corner when he was yelling at them...........actually he was discussing it...really........another 300000 worth of submissions and he got his 670,000 back and 200,000 more to boot...it only took a month
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
The market already factors in about 30 MS grades already based on 11 MS points. And others toss "plus" signs on these subgrades as well. Such a system is already in place and it's called the coin market. The graders have the ability to differentiate to 20 or 30 MS grades, but they neither have the time nor the inclination to do so at the present.
I for one graded my coins in '87-'88, then did it again in 1997. I have no intention of doing so a 3rd time based on 100 pts. And as Bill said, getting them properly "regraded" often takes more than 1 try. Just a first gen and PQ coins bring different money than current average slabs, so would older style slabs (0-70 pts) in a brave new 100 pt world. We've made the transition a number of times over the past 30 years as market standards changed in 1977, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987-89, etc. Raw coins still sell for serious money between serious grader/buyers. The same will still occur for obsolete slabs if the system changes. We've done this in the past and can do it in the future. No need to run and regrade for a 100 pt system. Why cave in to that hype?
multiple grade system:
60 not ok, ok
61 not ok, ok, PQ
62 low, ave, high end
63, low, ave, PQ, high end
64 low, ave, PQ, high end
65 to 69... etc
roadrunner
<< <i>merdime
>>>PCGS contemplating changing the grading scale from 70 points to 100 is more about marketing than an evolutionary step forward for numismatics.
your absolutely out of your mind...........its about greed.....its about wallstreet.........its about MONEY........and money only period.......got it!!!!!!!
LET ME SHOUT FOR ALL OF YOU...ITS ONLY ABOUT THE MONEY
heck they cant even get 1 thru 70 how are they going to get 1 thru 100..........come give me a break
wake up people.ITS ABOUT MONEY!!!!!!!!...IUTS ABOUT A PUBLIC COMPANY QUADRUPLING THEIR FORWARD LOOKING INCOME STREAM..WHILE ROBBING THE HOBBY........THAT RIGHT SIPHONING MONEY RIGHT OUT OF THE HOBBY AND GOING TO THEIR POCKETS!!!!
ITS SIMPLE..................MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MONEY!!!!!!!
by the way...the get it right all the time...then can grade perfectly......and if they did grade perfectly( WHICH THEY CAN ) they would grade themselves right out of ta job!!!!!!!!
THEY ARE A CARTELL...........they control the supply what would happen if every coin got graded right this next quarter........they would
1) be out of a job
2) flood the market with tons of wealth with not enough buyers
3) create an immediate market crash
do you really think at the fun this year with all the auctions sucking 60 million out of the market in a few days...do you really think the seervices would tighten or loosen.....come on i told a 300,000 submitters not to submit....i told dont do it..........he did and got 670,000 worth of downgrades...........you read it right........lost nearly a million at the fun...........how bout that one...that will make you heart pump...and i was right around the corner when he was yelling at them...........actually he was discussing it...really........another 300000 worth of submissions and he got his 670,000 back and 200,000 more to boot...it only took a month
monsterman >>
I'm really wondering if you are trying to say that it's all about the money? Just trying to be clear.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I will not have my coins regraded. If this happens, I may very well leave the hobby. >>
I won't leave the hobby, but I won't have PCGS Grade anymore of my coins and I might not even buy anymore PCGS coins. But, NGC and ANACS, et al, will jump on the bandwagon, so all collectors will suffer
NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE.
NIX NIX NIX NIX NIX.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
It is abundantly clear that the subjectivity involved in grading leads to an obvious problem with consistency, using the 70 point scale we have now. Switching to a 100 point scale and thereby requiring or pretending that grading be even more precise would be absurd.
<< <i>I will repeat my comment from another thread on this subject:
It is abundantly clear that the subjectivity involved in grading leads to an obvious problem with consistency, using the 70 point scale we have now. Switching to a 100 point scale and thereby requiring or pretending that grading be even more precise would be absurd. >>
I echo Mark's comment in that broadening the grading scale will not mitigate any grading subjectivity. Contemplating change simply for the sake of change is fool's folly.
<< <i>It is abundantly clear that the subjectivity involved in grading leads to an obvious problem with consistency, using the 70 point scale we have now. Switching to a 100 point scale and thereby requiring or pretending that grading be even more precise would be absurd. >>
Bingo!
<< <i>
<< <i>I will repeat my comment from another thread on this subject:
It is abundantly clear that the subjectivity involved in grading leads to an obvious problem with consistency, using the 70 point scale we have now. Switching to a 100 point scale and thereby requiring or pretending that grading be even more precise would be absurd. >>
I echo Mark's comment in that broadening the grading scale will not mitigate any grading subjectivity. Contemplating change simply for the sake of change is fool's folly. >>
Well said, by you both. Brevity, clarity, and all that.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
I wonder if anybody else feels this is about MONEY $$$$$ ?
I was going to bring up the point that roadrunner made - just as the old "green label" & "rattlers" bring a different price than current slabs, a case could be made that coins holdered in the 70 scale holders would be more accurately graded. I think the vast quantity of coins already certified (in many cases after several submissions) using the 70 scale preempts using a 100 point system. There just isn't any way that collectors will turn in the grades that they are happy with for "regrading" or even reholdering (which would essentially be regrading, using a new scale) - even if it were offered free.
Too much collector backlash - I just can't see this new system flying. It's just much too transparent as a money-grab.
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!
WS
Some changes are good in life,but this is not one of them. Heck,I haven't figured out the 0-70 scale yet--still working on it. I see no advantage to the collector,just the TPG on regrading fees.
Who came up with idea anyway?????????
My grandchildren. The heirs to my collection! (Just not to soon I hope)
<< <i>Why change a good working system? >>
Money for the grading company or companies involved.
Or to protect market share.....which in essence is the same thing.
i do not know but something is in the works and will present itself as an evoluation in grading within the next 5 years or less weather i want it or not
but no matter what i am still in the hobby
just make sure that if you buy a coin in a holder currently that it is all there and if you crack this coin out of its respective holder it is worth as much or more as if it was still in the holder
if not
then let the buyer beware
and this in and of itself is okie just buy what you like with discretionary finds and buy truly scarce underapprecaited coins coins with historical interest and with eye appeal and you will do okie
Based on the response to this poll, it is overwhelmingly opposed, and will only happen if we are silent and adopt your defeatist attitude. I note you also avoid addressing whether it's good for numismatics, or what the motives of pcgs are.
It's clear that it would have to forced upon an unwilling clientele. pcgs may feel this discussion alone will cause venting to occur now, that we will get used to the idea, and be too exhausted, or will adopt your attitude, when the time for a decision comes. We can make sure they are wrong in this surmise.
We can make this poll a strong statement, as it now is, and then we can keep our powder dry, for the battle that is coming. And then we must back up our words and votes here. We'll see if they still try to do it in the face of our opposition.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
If "it" is a 100 point system or a different scheme, will people adopt it in spite of their opposition? Unfortunately, yes.
Sad? Yes.
True? Yes, also.
Collectors surrendered their "rights" if you would when they began to (en mass) adopt TPG's opinion as a means by which to buy/sell coins. There is another thread going about tough to grade coins, right? Take a look at that. How many AU58 coins are in MS62 holders and sell for MS62 money? Boat loads...and they are the same coins that once were in AU58 holders, which sold for a lot less.
Conversely, how many people get coins in MS64 holders that they sell as such (believing the opinion of a TPG), and then these coins go in to MS66 holder, or even MS67? Boat loads...and they are still the same coin.
Perhaps a select few would hold out on principals if a new scheme was put in place, but they too will quickly succumb or will exit the hobby. And I say a select few...only.
We as collectors have allowed the top tier TPG's to become the Borg, and they will assimilate...it is in their nature and it is what they do.
And resistance is futile
...it's still the same coin after all...
I doubt I would regrade any slabs, plp are familiar with the current system.
~g
I'd give you the world, just because...
Speak to me of loved ones, favorite places and things, loves lost and gained, tears shed for joy and sorrow, of when I see the sparkle in your eye ...
and the blackness when the dream dies, of lovers, fools, adventurers and kings while I sip my wine and contemplate the Chi.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
>>>We can make this poll a strong statement, as it now is, and then we can keep our powder dry, for the battle that is coming
this is just a trail ballon..........not only to see the responses to more importantly to plant a seed....a seed that when its omes up agin in a year or so it wont be new..........
the biggest problem they face is not in selling this garbage to us....the biggest problem is
the services looking at each other and in essence saying...you do and i`ll do it....but you do it first..i`ll be in next week to see if youve drown...no no you do it first...no you do it..no you do it...
not too tuff with 2 companies...but
remember miles standish.............if in fact he has gone to anacs...the situation changes big time......why...simple
i think anacs does a good job.....yes they are a tenth point or a 20th point behind the biggies but that where they want to be...with grade flation most anas coins will upgrade ( all this in theory )
if there is any decension in this 100 point scale between the 2 biggies then anacs could move in and sell market share from both biggies and this whole thing could blow up in their face
so stay tuned....this is big time money
AND AS I SAID
ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY....YOUR MONEY GOING INTO THEIR POCKETS....MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT
PERSONALLY I WOULD LIKE TO SEE 500 MILLION WORTH OF BUYERS ONEY OUT THERE RATHER THAN SEE 500 MILLION GO TO WALL STREET
GREEDY WALL STREET NEEDS TO STAY OUT OF OUR HOBBY
PERIOD
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
"I don't believe the numismatic community is ready for a 100 point scale"
Thank God!!!
<< <i>All of these posts (and there are a lot of good ones here) confirm what David Hall said last month on the Q&A Forum:
"I don't believe the numismatic community is ready for a 100 point scale"
Thank God!!!
I'm not so sure "Thank God" is appropiate in this situation. Is it "Thank God" because of what David Hall said? Or is it "Thank God" because the numismatic community isn't ready for it? If it happens anyway without the numismatic community being ready then I would change what you said to "God Help Us."
Jerry
I would like seeing separate scales for the technical and eye appealing coins just to see where collectors interests fall.
But on the other hand, as I have stated in another thread, revisions could simply be made to the existing scale to sort out the mess. Letters (could be implemented into the grade) that describe the strike, the condition and the eye appeal of a coin and further catagorizing could be accomplished in such a fashion that would satisfy both collectors and the stockholders.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
>>>revisions could simply be made to the existing scale to sort out the mess. Letters (could be implemented into the grade) that describe the strike, the condition and the eye appeal of a coin and further catagorizing could be accomplished in such a fashion that would satisfy both collectors and the stockholders
no to be a dick but there is no mess at all............the services constantly uindergade and this leads to frustration of people....they undergrade for one reason...to make money...they undergrade on purpose to make money because they want to ...they do this because they create so much wealth for a coin when they grade it right ....there are coins out there that would go from 150,000 to 500,000 with one grade...........DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY WANT TO DO THIS FOR A HUNDRED BUCKS!!!!!!!!!!
the present system has a 70 point ceiling in it and the are nearing the end of their gravey train.......so they want to sell it
this is a 500 million dollar deal they are trying to sell.........thats a ton of money....in fact its 16 years of seconds ticking on your watch for the next 16 years...i can see the money now!!!!!!!!!!
and all of it could and should be going into the coin hobby not some wall street thief
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
PCGS, UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD CHANGE TO A 100 POINT SYSTEM WITHOUT THE COMPLETE SUPPORT OF ALL THE OTHER MAJOR GRADING SERVICES AND A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS.
Bottom line, in this period of time in our collecting history, it just isn't going to happen IMHO. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Either way, they'll still only make $100. The only reason I can think of, along the lines of your thinking, undergrading to safegaurd a coin's value and their guarantee and possibly someone's interest until it's sold to a peon like me!
Not too long ago, I speculated a money shift to NGC when PCGS went through some kind of ethics cleansing of it's staff. It may of happened, I have no way of knowing since I'm not in the mainstream of the stronger series.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>David Hall is not in favor of it. >>
Don't be so sure of that Steve. If he were strongly against it, there's a good chance it wouldn't even be up for discussion at the luncheon.
<< <i>PCGS, UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD CHANGE TO A 100 POINT SYSTEM WITHOUT THE COMPLETE SUPPORT OF ALL THE OTHER MAJOR GRADING SERVICES AND A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS >>
Which other "major grading services" would you include in that emphatic statement?
I don't think "A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS" would necessarily be required, and certainly not their "COMPLETE SUPPORT". A change could be made if they thought the "right hobbyists" could be counted on for support, or if not that, counted on to follow those who would support the change.
<< <i>
<< <i>David Hall is not in favor of it. >>
Don't be so sure of that Steve. If he were strongly against it, there's a good chance it wouldn't even be up for discussion at the luncheon.
<< <i>PCGS, UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD CHANGE TO A 100 POINT SYSTEM WITHOUT THE COMPLETE SUPPORT OF ALL THE OTHER MAJOR GRADING SERVICES AND A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS >>
Which other "major grading services" would you include in that emphatic statement?
I don't think "A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS" would necessarily be required, and certainly not their "COMPLETE SUPPORT". A change could be made if they thought the "right hobbyists" could be counted on for support, or if not that, counted on to follow those who would support the change. >>
Whoever they were, they could easily make a small conversion chart that could fit in your bilfold!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>...And it is incumbent upon those who oppose this to strenuously and continuously express their opinions. >>
I agree, Bill. Now, if we can just get that guy "monsterman" to speak his mind once or twice
Whoever gets credit for coming up with tpg slabbing and grading, be it AH and ACG or someone else, it has been a useful tool of numismatics. But that's what it is, a tool. It's best not to forget that, especially now.
Whether the tail or tool analogy fits best, I believe that it's numismatics as a whole that must be considered to be most important in this discussion. The tps's will benefit. Will our hobby?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>
<< <i>David Hall is not in favor of it. >>
Don't be so sure of that Steve. If he were strongly against it, there's a good chance it wouldn't even be up for discussion at the luncheon.
<< <i>PCGS, UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD CHANGE TO A 100 POINT SYSTEM WITHOUT THE COMPLETE SUPPORT OF ALL THE OTHER MAJOR GRADING SERVICES AND A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS >>
Which other "major grading services" would you include in that emphatic statement? PCGS, NGC, ANACS.
I don't think "A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF HOBBYISTS" would necessarily be required, and certainly not their "COMPLETE SUPPORT". A change could be made if they thought the "right hobbyists" could be counted on for support, or if not that, counted on to follow those who would support the change. >>
Making "a change" is NOT something that can or will happen overnight. We have lived with the 70 point system now for at least thirty years. I think it goes back to the 1970's and the ANA grading system. Of course, the concept for 70 point system goes back to the 1940's, but whatever, the hobby has too much money invested in the current system to change it because ONE grading company thinks it will make lots of new money from regrading coins. Let's see where things stand in a year or two. JMHO. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
BINGO
<< <i> ...they do this because they create so much wealth for a coin when they grade it right." >>
Or, when they over-grade it.
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.