When a customer offers to sell a coin to a dealer, who should first present a price?

markglicker · October 12, 2005 1:14AM

The first person to state a price is often at a disadvantage. Opinions?

coinguy1 · October 12, 2005 1:15AM

The seller, whether a collector or dealer, should present the asking price to the other party.

flaminio · October 12, 2005 1:15AM

It's kind of like playing a game of Chicken: Who should turn away first?

JBiggs · October 12, 2005 1:16AM

I agree with coinguy. It's your item, you price it.

Longacre · October 12, 2005 1:18AM

I never give a selling price. When the dealer asks "what are you looking to get out of it", I just respond with "whatever we agree to as a fair price." Then I say something about he probably knows better what the market value of the coin is, etc. Then I whip out all of my documentation (just kidding).

Shamika · October 12, 2005 1:19AM

<< It's kind of like playing a game of Chicken: Who should turn away first? >>

Isn't that the truth!

markglicker · October 12, 2005 1:26AM

The seller, whether a collector or dealer should present the asking price to the other party.

Mark, what if the seller is the proverbial widow, and has little knowledge of the coins value?

Julien · October 12, 2005 1:27AM

I would say ask what the offer is knowing what you want to get. What if he/she was prepared to offer more than you thought but you already named the price. Then you lose money without even knowing.

ScarsdaleCoin · October 12, 2005 1:38AM

Coinguy is 100% .....its your coin, how much do you want for it....

jcping · October 12, 2005 1:44AM

Sellers, always.

291fifth · October 12, 2005 1:54AM

The dealer responses to this thread should give you a good indication of why auctions now account for so much in the coin business.

Dealers are the professionals and they should be prepared to make an offer.

Julian · October 12, 2005 1:56AM

I would also prefer that the owner price his own coin, but if they are unable or unwilling, I may make an offer, depending on how much I want it.

At a show, making an offer often puts you at a disadvantage, but fair offers are often accepted.

I do make offers in my store because the people bringing in the coins are often numismatically ignorant. It takes more time and explanations, but I am mostly successful with those offers, as well.

An interesting story involves a woman with a half dozen Morgans. Normally, I tell people on the phone that dollars are worth between $5 and 10, but possibly more depending on the date, etc. The lady comes in and with her coins there is a circ. 93-S. I told her that I would pay $1000 for the group. She leaves, but she returned six months later and sold me the coins.

coinguy1 · October 12, 2005 1:58AM

<< Mark, what if the seller is the proverbial widow, and has little knowledge of the coins value? >>

Mark, believe it or not, I was anticipating that question.

That is a situation which needs to be addressed BEFORE trying to sell the coin(s). Whenever possible, (and it usually is these days, due to the internet, etc.), a seller should have a good idea as to the value of the item BEFORE trying to sell it. If he/she does not, there is a good chance that he/she will be taken advantage of when soliciting an offer anyway.

markglicker · October 12, 2005 2:05AM

Ok Mark, as dealers, at what point does one ethically not take the ask price. Say the coin is worth $1000 at retail, and the seller asks for $100? What is the obligation to offer a fair price, say 60-75% of market?

Regulated · October 12, 2005 2:19AM

I ask knowledgeable sellers to set a price. For the proverbial widow, I usually determine my selling price and offer based upon that number.

coinguy1 · October 12, 2005 2:22AM

<< The dealer responses to this thread should give you a good indication of why auctions now account for so much in the coin business. >>

291fifth, how did you arrive at that conclusion? There has been no noticeable change with respect to dealers' making offers (or not) on coins, during the past several years, which would account for "auctions now account for so much in the coin business". Your cause and effect simply don't relate.

A number of dealers, myself included, are willing to make offers on coins. However, if the seller doesn't have a good idea of the coin's value, chances are, he/she wont be any "better" off that way. The unknowledgeable seller will be just as likely to accept an unfair offer as he/she will be to decline a fair one.

Please see my previous post regarding sellers' learning what they can about value BEFORE trying to sell.

BillJones · October 12, 2005 2:32AM

I much prefer to deal with people who know what they want for their coins. That way we don’t waste each other’s time with back and forth stuff that more often than not results in no transaction.

If I REALLY need a coin, and the seller won’t name a price, I’ll make a strong offer. If I don’t really need it, I’ll either decline to “bid” or make a fair but not really high offer. I don’t like dealing with people who come to show and run around to all the tables to get the highest bid from the dealers. My opinion on that is that I’m OUT. I’ll make a fair offer, and you can sell it now. Otherwise I’m not interested. I don’t like fooling with people who play games.

DNADave · October 12, 2005 2:37AM

As a buyer, I offer my best price, Then I strongly reccomend that the seller ask around and get other offers. They can then decide if my offer is acceptable or not. As a seller, I see nothing wrong with shopping for the best price at a show.

WTCG · October 12, 2005 3:27AM

Who should make the first offer?

The person that is presenting the coin for sale. When dealers sell they name their price first. Collectors should reciprocate that protocol when they want to sell.

Numismanic · October 12, 2005 3:49AM

I usually tell the dealer how much I have into the coin and then ask them if they can bail me out.

nencoin · October 12, 2005 4:52AM

We almost always ask what price the person has in mind for the coin. It certainly makes the process much easier for both parties.

It can be frustrating when some folks who are offering a coin for sale say: "Well, I don't really know what it's worth. I just want to get a fair price. You're the dealer, you tell me what it's worth." So we come up with an offer, to which they then start spouting off years worth of auction records, previous bid prices, retail price guide prices, etc.

markglicker · October 12, 2005 5:15AM

I am surprised by the dealer responses to this question. I believe that the real dealers have an obligation to make a market in rare coins. That does not mean that they are not entiled to make a fair and reasonable spread/profit on the bid-ask. Certainly, if a coin lot is not of interest, or is financially over their head, they should express that, and perhaps suggest another dealer.

mrearlygold · October 12, 2005 5:22AM

You need to ask a price for your coin (s ). Otherwise I would just ignore you.

Julian · October 12, 2005 5:27AM

Mark--

Numismatics is a luxury. No one has to buy coins. As I dealer, I try to buy all the coins that have value that are offered to me, but as for making a market, I do not agree with you.

If I had retail people wanting to buy more than I had, that would be one thing, but the fact of the matter is that I purchase more than I sell and just wait until someone needs to fill an order and needs quantity of a particular item.

I try to give people a place to sell their coins that they do not want anymore. Then I try to sell them. I can't lay them off. There is no exchange for most of the coins that come in over the counter, or from the general public, for that matter.

I try to be fair with the public and appreciate any and all business that they are willing to do.

coinguy1 · October 12, 2005 5:34AM

<< I believe that the real dealers have an obligation to make a market in rare coins >>

Dealers have no obligation, whatsoever, to make a market in a given coin or any coin. Ditto for jewelers with jewelry, etc. However, it can behoove them to do so, and those who do, often acquire good reputations as a result.

<< Ok Mark, as dealers, at what point does one ethically not take the ask price. Say the coin is worth $1000 at retail, and the seller asks for $100? What is the obligation to offer a fair price, say 60-75% of market? >>

In the scenario as stated, I would probably do one of two things: 1) Buy the coin, but make the check out for approximately $825 or 2) Buy the coin for $100, but send an additional $725 in the mail later.

I mentioned option #2 as a possibility, because some sellers get nervous, think you're trying to take advantage of them and walk away with the coin if/when you let them know it's worth more than they previously thought.

Different people have very different opinions concerning what % of retail is considered a fair amount to offer. Opinions also differ greatly regarding whether it would be ethical to buy the coin for $100 in the example you gave above.

DCAM · October 12, 2005 5:40AM

<< If I REALLY need a coin, and the seller won’t name a price, I’ll make a strong offer. >>

Bill, is this because the uneducated seller may refuse a "fair" offer and you have a policy of not raising your offer? BTW I wonder what percentage of dealers will up the offer a bit the second time?

mercurydimeguy · October 12, 2005 5:41AM

<>

Well, someone should do that (not necessarily an obligation, in that sense of the word), but in any event it's not the dealers.

Here's a disruptive thought to ponder: organizations that control supply, create demand and proliferate market data, are the consequential marketmakers.

Edited to add: I submit to you, and I wholeheartedly expect most to disagree, that today the market makers are (in no specific order):

-CDN
-TPG's
-Mega Auction Houses

Coin dealers are "retailers" even though they often trade amongst each other.

BillJones · October 12, 2005 5:46AM

Most of the stuff that gets offered to me at shows are "widgets." Generally these include common date Morgan dollars, modern commemorative coins and Proof sets, coins in "third world" (usually overgraded) slabsm, and lower grade and overgraded raw coins. Most of this stuff is worth no more than 10 to 30 percent in back of Gray Sheet "bid" because "bid" is the most that collectors will pay for it. When dealers buy it the most they will pay is "bid" if they have a want list (instant sale) for it. Usually they will pay 10% in back of bid or less.

And no, I will not raise my offer for such material because I don't need "dead stock" that takes months sell with no real upside.

If someone offers me a desirable coin, I'll pay a better price. But "widgets" don't bring great money.

markglicker · October 12, 2005 5:56AM

Dealers have no obligation, whatsoever, to make a market in a given coin or any coin. Ditto for jewelers with jewelry, etc. However, it can behoove them to do so, and those who do, often acquire good reputations as a result.

From a legal standpoint, there is of course no obligation, but I believe that when one advertises themselves as a dealer, he should be prepared to make a reasonable offer on a single, or group of coins. Again, one may not be able to absorb a particular collection, it is then appropriate, if possible, to refer the seller to another dealer, who can. Certainly, a commission for this service, would be in order.

BillJones · October 12, 2005 6:05AM

Sorry mark, you are not living in the real dealer world. I've never gotten a commission for leading a buyer or seller to another dealer. I know that it happens, but not to me.

As for having offer on everything, that's not realistic. All of us have specialties, and we don't pay or buy coins that are not part of our usual markets unless the price is very, very very cheap, and we know who is buying such material.

The coin market IS NOT like the New York Stock Exchange. It's not that well organized. In fact it's not organized at all.

markglicker · October 12, 2005 6:07AM

Sorry mark, you are not living in the real dealer world. I've never gotten a commission for leading a buyer or seller to another dealer

Guess I am not. I have always paid a fee, to one who has refered a seller to me.

elwood · October 12, 2005 6:52AM

<< When a customer offers to sell a coin to a dealer, who should first present a price? >>

The seller should always present the price. If they refuse to, then I will make an offer. If, I have an interest in what they are selling. Many times, like Bill, I have absolutely no interest in the coins offered and will not even quote them a price. I then direct them to a dealer who handles the kind of material they're selling.

Personally I don't like to make an offer because I don't want to offend some collectors. It's never fun to offer to little (in the collectors mind) for a coin and have them find out they have buried themselves in it. A coin that has serious issues of one kind or another. The collector then thinks that you are trying to rip him/her off.

markglicker · October 12, 2005 7:02AM

Ellwood, you do bring up a good point. A buyer may have paid $1000 for a $100 coin. The dealer then looks like a bad guy. Unfortunately, that is a tough part of the business.

ttown · October 12, 2005 7:02AM

This is like buying a new car. I'd rather have the dealer offer first and see if he's anywhere near my price. You name the price he counters at a much lower price waiting for your counter. He names his price and you counter and if it's not near what you want the deals off with not much time wasted.

If your established with a dealer and it's a graded coin from PCGS, NGC, or ANACS I have him give me a ball park figure by phone and he's allowed to look at the coin. That tells me if it's a waste of time driving into his store. A lot of dealers don't want a large stock pile of coins they already have so many times they'll tell you they aren't interested and it keeps you from getting pissed off and storming out. Smart move on the dealer part to be upfront on his needs IMO.

ttown · October 12, 2005 7:20AM

Another idea that I’ve used on coins at a brick and mortar shop that they may go for is the consignment route. I had some extra 64 FBL graded Franklins that he doesn’t want to put his money into stocking but had case space for them. I take them in we agree on how to price them and the money he’ll receive if he sells them. It balances his stores stock and it’s no skin off his teeth if he doesn’t sell them.

If they don't have demand for a series and he can't flip them fast most dealer have little if any stock.

Cladiator · October 12, 2005 7:26AM

Always the seller should say the asking price first.

veryfine · October 12, 2005 7:36AM

What's wrong with a seller asking a buyer, "would you be interested in my coin, and if so, what would you pay for it?

JSsson · October 12, 2005 8:21AM

I always think it's much easier for the collector to be given the first offer by a dealer. The dealers usually know much more about the coins than the collectors do, so by making the first move it gives the collectors an even advantage.

ttown · October 12, 2005 8:33AM

<< I always think it's much easier for the collector to be given the first offer by a dealer. The dealers usually know much more about the coins than the collectors do, so by making the first move it gives the collectors an even advantage. >>

Agree, that's why they have a gray sheet for a guide. Smart sellers will ask to see it or bone up on it before entering the deal since many of us have had these coins for decades and online and redbook sources aren't all that accurate.

Touchdown · October 12, 2005 12:00PM

The buyer should make an offer first. If it is a dealer even more so. They should know more about the current value of a coin than someone who doesn't deal full time. If a buyer or even a dealer doesn't give you an offer you probably don't need to deal with them. An honest dealer will always pay a fair value for your coin. If you bought a coin for $1 and it sold 5 times at auction this year for over $1000. you would still come out on top if someone offered $100. But the point is to get an honest price for it. The dealers and buyers have more resources today than ever to give you a price so there is no excuse not to make an offer. Auctions, greysheet etc. Plus if you notice any numismatic magazine has dealers advertising to ship off your coins to them for the highest offers.

michael · October 12, 2005 1:08PM

IF YOU SELL YOUR COINS YOU NEED TO PRICE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark, what if the seller is the proverbial widow, and has little knowledge of the coins value?

then you got to go out and find out do some research pay someone to value your collection

then when you figure out a price you are comfortable with then you go out and offer them to sellers priced

markglicker · October 12, 2005 1:29PM

Michael. Is it too much to expect that an uninformed seller, can walk into a coin shop and receive a legitimate offer on their coins? We trust business people everyday with their knowledge. Do you not hope that your auto mechanic, Doctor or home repair contractor will give you a fair shake. Do you take your car in for 6 estimates for a brake job, or do you trust that you will not get hosed. Can we not hold the professional coin dealer, to the same standards.

It of course would be advantageous to the uninformed, to discover the fair value of their holdings before selling. The reality is though, many don't, and are entitled to a fair offer from the dealer.

Touchdown · October 12, 2005 1:35PM

I have seen many dealers have collectors come back time after time back to them. Because they know they can trust the dealer who makes you an offer. If the dealer or collector can't make an offer then don't bother with them. I know and have seen many dealers make offers first and don't mind doing so. If they don't make offers first then let them go buy the coins themselve's from other dealers who will put a price first.

markglicker · October 12, 2005 1:38PM

I was recently offered a lot of nearly 200, 1882-CC - 1884-CC GSA Morgans. I made a sight unseen offer of $150 each. The seller refused, saying she had a high offer of $165. It was painless.

classiccoin · October 12, 2005 1:42PM

keep in mind that many dealers make a living preying on unsophisticated sellers..even on the bourse floor.. but just ask any coin shop owner.. i've seen them rip coins from the unsuspecting public so badly they should be in jail.. just another day in the coin biz..

on second thought.. dont ask your local coin dealer.. they will never admit they are borderline criminals..but they make their living waiting for fish to walk in their shops and then quickly wholesale it away.. its my estimation that many currently very successful dealers started their careers in coin shops ripping off the public and stealing their coins for next to nothing.. they will deny it but they know the truth

classiccoin · October 12, 2005 1:45PM

"Can we not hold the professional coin dealer, to the same standards."

get serious..

PerryHall · October 12, 2005 1:48PM

The dealers that want the collector seller to name his price is hoping the seller will grossly underprice his coin. In my opinion, these dealers are nothing more than predators.

Touchdown · October 12, 2005 1:48PM

Dealers try to get the highest prices for there coins. Why can't a collector get an offer first and have the opportunity to take it or pass on it. You can see a dealer is selling coins on Ebay everyday for example. Why? Because they want to get the most out of there coins. There is nothing wrong with that. So, a collector can try to get the highest for there coin also by getting an offer first. And having the opportunity to take it or leave it.

TwoSides2aCoin · October 12, 2005 1:52PM

This is a question that has no right answer. If a seller is not knowledgeable and goes to a dealer, a dealer is not obligated to "appraise" a coin for a customer, so the customer should say what they expect out of a coin or collection. Many times, people want the red book price for a coin and have no clue that there is a grey sheet or dealer to dealer price. These prices are so much different than the retail end that the poor widow, who's son said " mom, the book says it's worth a million dollars" has no real clue of the market or the quirks that go along with the market. A lot of times, people are very disgruntled when leaving the dealer because they just don't understand the market. I say if one is in the SELL mode, then sell. There needs to be a profit for the person paying out the cold hard cash on such transactions and part of the benefits of being a dealer is to be able to acquire a good coin at a fair price without "stealing" it from the customer.

When both parties are smiling, it's usually a good deal with potential for a long lasting relationship.

TwoSides2aCoin · October 12, 2005 2:05PM

was recently offered a lot of nearly 200, 1882-CC - 1884-CC GSA Morgans. I made a sight unseen offer of $150 each. The seller refused, saying she had a high offer of $165. It was painless........

and Mark, were you allowed a counter offer ? Seems you could have still turned about 5 grand by countering at $170. And someone would have said YOU RIPPED HER OFF< THEY ARE WORTH 200.... yours is a perfect example of why I would ask what they expect or desire.

Touchdown · October 12, 2005 2:07PM

I agree with you 2sides2acoin. Although, many dealers do the same thing at shows. They put a label on the back of their coins with no price showing in the front. They first look at the potential buyer and then give you a price. A different more knowledgeable looking buyer might come and ask for the price of the same coin and the price will be different from 5 minutes ago. The dealers are the ones offering coins at the show. So, they should put a price first but they don't do it. So, why should someone offering a coin expect less. After all, the person offering the coin has a valid reason to so so just like the dealers do for their coins.

When a customer offers to sell a coin to a dealer, who should first present a price?

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