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When a customer offers to sell a coin to a dealer, who should first present a price?
markglicker
Posts: 1,486 ✭
The first person to state a price is often at a disadvantage. Opinions?
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<< <i> It's kind of like playing a game of Chicken: Who should turn away first? >>
Mark, what if the seller is the proverbial widow, and has little knowledge of the coins value?
Dealers are the professionals and they should be prepared to make an offer.
At a show, making an offer often puts you at a disadvantage, but fair offers are often accepted.
I do make offers in my store because the people bringing in the coins are often numismatically ignorant. It takes more time and explanations, but I am mostly successful with those offers, as well.
An interesting story involves a woman with a half dozen Morgans. Normally, I tell people on the phone that dollars are worth between $5 and 10, but possibly more depending on the date, etc. The lady comes in and with her coins there is a circ. 93-S. I told her that I would pay $1000 for the group. She leaves, but she returned six months later and sold me the coins.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>Mark, what if the seller is the proverbial widow, and has little knowledge of the coins value? >>
Mark, believe it or not, I was anticipating that question.
That is a situation which needs to be addressed BEFORE trying to sell the coin(s). Whenever possible, (and it usually is these days, due to the internet, etc.), a seller should have a good idea as to the value of the item BEFORE trying to sell it. If he/she does not, there is a good chance that he/she will be taken advantage of when soliciting an offer anyway.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
<< <i>The dealer responses to this thread should give you a good indication of why auctions now account for so much in the coin business. >>
291fifth, how did you arrive at that conclusion? There has been no noticeable change with respect to dealers' making offers (or not) on coins, during the past several years, which would account for "auctions now account for so much in the coin business". Your cause and effect simply don't relate.
A number of dealers, myself included, are willing to make offers on coins. However, if the seller doesn't have a good idea of the coin's value, chances are, he/she wont be any "better" off that way. The unknowledgeable seller will be just as likely to accept an unfair offer as he/she will be to decline a fair one.
Please see my previous post regarding sellers' learning what they can about value BEFORE trying to sell.
If I REALLY need a coin, and the seller won’t name a price, I’ll make a strong offer. If I don’t really need it, I’ll either decline to “bid” or make a fair but not really high offer. I don’t like dealing with people who come to show and run around to all the tables to get the highest bid from the dealers. My opinion on that is that I’m OUT. I’ll make a fair offer, and you can sell it now. Otherwise I’m not interested. I don’t like fooling with people who play games.
The person that is presenting the coin for sale. When dealers sell they name their price first. Collectors should reciprocate that protocol when they want to sell.
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It can be frustrating when some folks who are offering a coin for sale say: "Well, I don't really know what it's worth. I just want to get a fair price. You're the dealer, you tell me what it's worth." So we come up with an offer, to which they then start spouting off years worth of auction records, previous bid prices, retail price guide prices, etc.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Numismatics is a luxury. No one has to buy coins. As I dealer, I try to buy all the coins that have value that are offered to me, but as for making a market, I do not agree with you.
If I had retail people wanting to buy more than I had, that would be one thing, but the fact of the matter is that I purchase more than I sell and just wait until someone needs to fill an order and needs quantity of a particular item.
I try to give people a place to sell their coins that they do not want anymore. Then I try to sell them. I can't lay them off. There is no exchange for most of the coins that come in over the counter, or from the general public, for that matter.
I try to be fair with the public and appreciate any and all business that they are willing to do.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>I believe that the real dealers have an obligation to make a market in rare coins >>
Dealers have no obligation, whatsoever, to make a market in a given coin or any coin. Ditto for jewelers with jewelry, etc. However, it can behoove them to do so, and those who do, often acquire good reputations as a result.
<< <i>Ok Mark, as dealers, at what point does one ethically not take the ask price. Say the coin is worth $1000 at retail, and the seller asks for $100? What is the obligation to offer a fair price, say 60-75% of market? >>
In the scenario as stated, I would probably do one of two things: 1) Buy the coin, but make the check out for approximately $825 or 2) Buy the coin for $100, but send an additional $725 in the mail later.
I mentioned option #2 as a possibility, because some sellers get nervous, think you're trying to take advantage of them and walk away with the coin if/when you let them know it's worth more than they previously thought.
Different people have very different opinions concerning what % of retail is considered a fair amount to offer. Opinions also differ greatly regarding whether it would be ethical to buy the coin for $100 in the example you gave above.
<< <i>If I REALLY need a coin, and the seller won’t name a price, I’ll make a strong offer. >>
Bill, is this because the uneducated seller may refuse a "fair" offer and you have a policy of not raising your offer? BTW I wonder what percentage of dealers will up the offer a bit the second time?
Well, someone should do that (not necessarily an obligation, in that sense of the word), but in any event it's not the dealers.
Here's a disruptive thought to ponder: organizations that control supply, create demand and proliferate market data, are the consequential marketmakers.
Edited to add: I submit to you, and I wholeheartedly expect most to disagree, that today the market makers are (in no specific order):
-CDN
-TPG's
-Mega Auction Houses
Coin dealers are "retailers" even though they often trade amongst each other.
And no, I will not raise my offer for such material because I don't need "dead stock" that takes months sell with no real upside.
If someone offers me a desirable coin, I'll pay a better price. But "widgets" don't bring great money.
From a legal standpoint, there is of course no obligation, but I believe that when one advertises themselves as a dealer, he should be prepared to make a reasonable offer on a single, or group of coins. Again, one may not be able to absorb a particular collection, it is then appropriate, if possible, to refer the seller to another dealer, who can. Certainly, a commission for this service, would be in order.
As for having offer on everything, that's not realistic. All of us have specialties, and we don't pay or buy coins that are not part of our usual markets unless the price is very, very very cheap, and we know who is buying such material.
The coin market IS NOT like the New York Stock Exchange. It's not that well organized. In fact it's not organized at all.
Guess I am not. I have always paid a fee, to one who has refered a seller to me.
<< <i>When a customer offers to sell a coin to a dealer, who should first present a price? >>
The seller should always present the price. If they refuse to, then I will make an offer. If, I have an interest in what they are selling. Many times, like Bill, I have absolutely no interest in the coins offered and will not even quote them a price. I then direct them to a dealer who handles the kind of material they're selling.
Personally I don't like to make an offer because I don't want to offend some collectors. It's never fun to offer to little (in the collectors mind) for a coin and have them find out they have buried themselves in it. A coin that has serious issues of one kind or another. The collector then thinks that you are trying to rip him/her off.
If your established with a dealer and it's a graded coin from PCGS, NGC, or ANACS I have him give me a ball park figure by phone and he's allowed to look at the coin. That tells me if it's a waste of time driving into his store. A lot of dealers don't want a large stock pile of coins they already have so many times they'll tell you they aren't interested and it keeps you from getting pissed off and storming out. Smart move on the dealer part to be upfront on his needs IMO.
If they don't have demand for a series and he can't flip them fast most dealer have little if any stock.
<< <i>I always think it's much easier for the collector to be given the first offer by a dealer. The dealers usually know much more about the coins than the collectors do, so by making the first move it gives the collectors an even advantage. >>
Agree, that's why they have a gray sheet for a guide. Smart sellers will ask to see it or bone up on it before entering the deal since many of us have had these coins for decades and online and redbook sources aren't all that accurate.
Mark, what if the seller is the proverbial widow, and has little knowledge of the coins value?
then you got to go out and find out do some research pay someone to value your collection
then when you figure out a price you are comfortable with then you go out and offer them to sellers priced
It of course would be advantageous to the uninformed, to discover the fair value of their holdings before selling. The reality is though, many don't, and are entitled to a fair offer from the dealer.
on second thought.. dont ask your local coin dealer.. they will never admit they are borderline criminals..but they make their living waiting for fish to walk in their shops and then quickly wholesale it away.. its my estimation that many currently very successful dealers started their careers in coin shops ripping off the public and stealing their coins for next to nothing.. they will deny it but they know the truth
get serious..
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
When both parties are smiling, it's usually a good deal with potential for a long lasting relationship.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
and Mark, were you allowed a counter offer ? Seems you could have still turned about 5 grand by countering at $170. And someone would have said YOU RIPPED HER OFF< THEY ARE WORTH 200.... yours is a perfect example of why I would ask what they expect or desire.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5