Is what this Ebay seller is doing, "ok"? Most definitely not...

coinguy1 · October 10, 2005 1:25AM

I will just post the link to the listing, for now and comment later....

LINK

Nap · October 10, 2005 1:34AM

Fraud? No.

Misleading? Sure.

The seller isn't claiming that it's certified, so the Coin World holder is no worse than a 2x2 flip with a grade on it. However, with a description that says "judge for yourself" and all sales final, the seller is not giving the buyer much to go with. Low-res pic, no reverse picture, no evidence of the so-called prooflike surface. Private auction also suspicious.

ziggy29 · October 10, 2005 1:39AM

IMO, it's misrepresentation. I don't think it's an "ok" thing to do ethically. And I think the use of private auction indicates to me that they probably know EXACTLY what they are doing.

JadeRareCoin · October 10, 2005 1:39AM

No, it is not "ok". He is blantantly deceptive. Fortunately, it looks like nobody is falling for his scam this time around. He says the coin lists at $3750, but with 22 hours to go, it is only at $10. He states that the coin lots of luster, but in the title he calls it a DMPL. Does that make any sense? Unfortunately, some newbie will eventually fall for this scam. The newbie will think that he ripped a $3750 coin by only paying $500 for a "slabbed" coin. In reality, it will only be a $15 coin. The seller should be naru'ed.

ziggy29 · October 10, 2005 1:40AM

<< He states that the coin lots of luster, but in the title he calls it a DMPL. Does that make any sense? >>

Nice catch, Dennis. That one totally went over my head!

BlindedByEgo · October 10, 2005 1:48AM

Just more Ebay crap

Nice call on the DMPL

Gator5220 · October 10, 2005 1:52AM

This is deceptive BS, pure and simple. If he was not intending to deceive, then why put a grade on it with a value?

NumisOxide · October 10, 2005 1:54AM

<< Fraud? No.

Misleading? Sure.

The seller isn't claiming that it's certified, so the Coin World holder is no worse than a 2x2 flip with a grade on it. However, with a description that says "judge for yourself" and all sales final, the seller is not giving the buyer much to go with. Low-res pic, no reverse picture, no evidence of the so-called prooflike surface. Private auction also suspicious. >>

I agree, it's very misleading. If a new collector comes along and thinks that the coin is certified by a reputable company he's going to lose his short because the seller is stating that the coin is $3750. It's a good thing that the auction is almost over and it's not at a large sum of money.

JustGotRipped · October 10, 2005 1:58AM

Personally I don't see anything wrong with this auction. No mention of the coin being certified, grade seems like an opinion to me. I don't even see anything misleading, no mention of any reputable TPG services, no price guides referenced. JMHO

ss350camaro · October 10, 2005 2:02AM

<< Is what this Ebay seller is doing, "ok"? >>

No (and yes)

No because he's obviously trying to take advantage of unknowledgable buyers by being deceptive. (poor picture, grade opinion with a "list" price, ...etc...)

(yes) because a lot of responsability falls to the prospective buyer to investigate the claims made by the seller. ask for better pictures...etc...

Steve27 · October 10, 2005 2:03AM

"Is what this Ebay seller is doing, "ok"?"

No, but I don't see how to stop sellers from putting anything they want on a Coin World slab and passing it off as a "professionally" graded coin.

Gator5220 · October 10, 2005 2:05AM

<< Personally I don't see anything wrong with this auction. No mention of the coin being certified, grade seems like an opinion to me. I don't even see anything misleading, no mention of any reputable TPG services, no price guides referenced. JMHO >>

I'm a new collector, and had I seen this coin back in February, I would have thought it was a good deal. This listing is designed to take advantage of somebody.

JustGotRipped · October 10, 2005 2:05AM

I dont see where this seller is representing this coin as "professionally graded". it's in a holder and he assigns a grade. I don't see the connection.

Gator5220 · October 10, 2005 2:06AM

<< I dont see where this seller is representing this coin as "professionally graded". it's in a holder and he assigns a grade. I don't see the connection. >>

Then why list a grade and a value?

JustGotRipped · October 10, 2005 2:15AM

Perhaps the seller thinks that is what the coin is worth. At some point, buyers need to take some responsibility. Had he mentioned PCGS or NGC or some other grading service, I would cry foul. But I dont see it here. I realize this goes against the grain, but it's what I think

mercurydimeguy · October 10, 2005 2:19AM

<< 

<< I dont see where this seller is representing this coin as "professionally graded". it's in a holder and he assigns a grade. I don't see the connection. >>

Then why list a grade and a value? >>

Why list a grade??

There is a difference between ideology and reality. Theoretically, one can post a coin with no grade -- no nothing. What purpose does that serve? Many a PCGS MS65 coins look like XF's from pictures, and other way around. So a seller has every right to state a grade that he/she believes the coin to be in. Whether you agree or not is up to you. The seller doesn't claim the coin is graded by a third party grading service....

...having said that, I can see how a newbie will fall for this coin. But, I doubt to the tune of several hundred $$'s. I know we all try to educate the newbies about purchasing coins, but in reality (rather than theory) it appears as though everyone has to make a mistake/two to really learn...because those very same newbies think that we're the scammers (and not the questionable sellers) by trying to talk them out of buying a coin "they found" and after we talk them out of it, we'd buy it instead. Some really think like that....

BlindedByEgo · October 10, 2005 2:21AM

Why grade it? Just put up some good scans and let the buyers flock!

Silly, OF COURSE it's misrepresentation.

Caveat emptor.

JustGotRipped · October 10, 2005 2:22AM

After further review the call on the filed has been reversed. A look at many of his other listings reveal that he references PCGS values. The call on the field has been reversed. With more evidence now in, He is a scumbag.

coinguy1 · October 10, 2005 2:29AM

For anyone who thinks that buyers wont fall for or be hurt by such listings, here are a couple of previous sales for which the seller received positive feedbacK:

$427This date bids at approximately $135 in AU and $13 in XF in the CDN.

$1525As mentioned above, this date lists at $135 in AU.

mercurydimeguy · October 10, 2005 2:33AM

Mark,

How do you know the buyer didn't know they weren't graded as stated, and in fact how do you know the buyers were legit at all? Could be shills building up the seller's feedback, so the seller can then refer to his/her feedback and further promulgate his/her selling reputation.

EDITED: ...and oh, do you think what this seller is doing is better or worst (or the same) as selling the same coin in a PCI or Segs slab with the same grade on it?

Nocerino18 · October 10, 2005 2:37AM

<< In reality, it will only be a $15 coin. >>

It is def a $20 coin, cmon now.

Nocerino18 · October 10, 2005 2:40AM

I really liked the 1896-O MS64. Amazing hairlines LOL

30AnvZ28 · October 10, 2005 2:49AM

ill put a bid of $15 on it.

coinguy1 · October 10, 2005 3:09AM

<< How do you know the buyer didn't know they weren't graded as stated, and in fact how do you know the buyers were legit at all? Could be shills building up the seller's feedback, so the seller can then refer to his/her feedback and further promulgate his/her selling reputation. >>

Michael, in reply to your questions:

1) I don't "know" that the buyers thought the coins were "graded as stated". Either way, the prices realized indicate they likely thought the coins were of higher grade than they in fact are. And, they either got screwed or screwed themselves, however you wish to put it.

2) Sure, the buyers might have been shills. That isn't much of a defencse for the seller, though.

<< ...and oh, do you think what this seller is doing is better or worst (or the same) as selling the same coin in a PCI or Segs slab with the same grade on it? >>

Perhaps he isn't doing any worse, in some cases, at least. That still doesn't make it "ok" in my book.

mercurydimeguy · October 10, 2005 3:27AM

<< 

<< How do you know the buyer didn't know they weren't graded as stated, and in fact how do you know the buyers were legit at all? Could be shills building up the seller's feedback, so the seller can then refer to his/her feedback and further promulgate his/her selling reputation. >>

Michael, in reply to your questions:

1) I don't "know" that the buyers thought the coins were "graded as stated". Either way, the prices realized indicate they likely thought the coins were of higher grade than they in fact are. And, they either got screwed or screwed themselves, however you wish to put it.

2) Sure, the buyers might have been shills. That isn't much of a defencse for the seller, though.

<< ...and oh, do you think what this seller is doing is better or worst (or the same) as selling the same coin in a PCI or Segs slab with the same grade on it? >>

Perhaps he isn't doing any worse, in some cases, at least. That still doesn't make it "ok" in my book. >>

Mark, don't mistake my observations as defensive of the seller

No, no, no....

I'm simply trying to elevate what you're eluding to in to a different stratasphere of intelect. If every TPG graded the same, then there would be some strong contrast for TPG or no TPG. But because they don't, and you can buy a PCI Merc, for instance

, in a MS66FB holder only to get it and see that it's no better than a 62 with no bands. So, if the seller is selling a non-TPG coin that he/she says is 66FB and it's really a 62........bbbbbaaadddd seller. If a seller is selling a PCI 66FB (and it's still really a 62)........bbbbbaaaadddd seller or bbbbaaaaaddddd PCI? Which is it? Or is it both? And what if the seller is selling a PCGS MS67FB, but it's really a MS65FB.........bbbbbaaadddd seller or bbbbbaaaadddd PCGS......or bad buyer, it's PCGS, of course the coin is "acceptable" for the grade! Should every TPG be outlawed and only PCGS be allowed to exist? Should selling of "opinions" on raw coins be outlawed? Is the opinion of one better than an opinion of another....is the opinion of one paid source better than an opinion of another?

People go on record as saying that grading is just a matter of opinion, and in essence if you're buying sight unseen you're not buying a coin but someone elses opinion of that coin (be it unslabbed and the opinion is of the seller, or slabbed and the opinion being of the TPG). That's really what it is...just an opinion...and the quality of the coin is really predicated on the quality of the source who is rendering the opinion.

People vote with their wallets, and as long as people have $$ to spend and choose not to educate themselves on how to best spend it, trying to thwart activity which we believe is "less than above board" is simply futile.

coinguy1 · October 10, 2005 3:31AM

Michael, I'm sorry to say....

you make some excellent points.

Edited to add: That said, I still prefer to do what I can, even knowing that it's extremely little in the grand scheme of things.

JBiggs · October 10, 2005 4:15AM

It's a bunch of BS. The seller is buying the coins, treating them, putting them in look-alike holders and reselling them with elusive descriptions for unexpecting bidders. He is doing it all on the same account, for crying out loud. Only recently has he started to keep the bidder ID's private and the auction # private. What scum.

"When buying on eBay, be wary of seller's who have private feedback, private bid lists, excessive shipping costs and deceitful pictures. Private feedback and private bid lists can be used to hide schill bids by the seller. Private bid lists can also be used in deceitful auctions that mislead the buyer. By having a the bid lists private, other members are not able to contact the bidders to alert them of the fraudulent item. Deceitful pictures can be used to hide flaws with the item. ALWAYS factor in the cost of shipping in what you are willing to spend on the item."

MikeInFL · October 10, 2005 4:17AM

No it is not OK. Misrepresentation never is...Mike

Fairlaneman · October 10, 2005 4:21AM

Whats any different with this auction, or the selling of a coin, that has not been going on in this Hobby forever ? The internet just gives a chance for a seller to show his wares to many more people thats the only difference. I suppose you would never see this in a coin shop or at a coin show. Ha Ha !!

I do not condone what the seller is doing but since everyone is concerned about "Newbie Protection" I guess it is a responsibility for each and everyone of us to educate these new people. Further more when anyone notices something like this you should jump all over the seller and question his/her ethical intentions. Just how many people do the previous mentioned ? Not many I bet.

Usually instead of jumping all over the seller of stuff like this the members here will split about 50/50 with their jumping mode. 50% against the seller and 50% calling the buyer a idiot. A couple of recent examples come to mind.

Ken

Gator5220 · October 10, 2005 4:24AM

<< Whats any different with this auction, or the selling of a coin, that has not been going on in this Hobby forever ? The internet just gives a chance for a seller to show his wares to many more people thats the only difference. I suppose you would never see this in a coin shop or at a coin show. Ha Ha !!

I do not condone what the seller is doing but since everyone is concerned about "Newbie Protection" I guess it is a responsibility for each and everyone of us to educate these new people. Further more when anyone notices something like this you should jump all over the seller and question his/her ethical intentions. Just how many people do the previous mentioned ? Not many I bet.

Usually instead of jumping all over the seller of stuff like this the members here will split about 50/50 with their jumping mode. 50% against the seller and 50% calling the buyer a idiot. A couple of recent examples come to mind.

Ken >>

One of the first things I was told when I joined here was to buy the book before you buy the coin. That was great advice. I did exactly that, and it saved me a lot of money with my first few purchases.

JBiggs · October 10, 2005 4:27AM

Multiple accounts? All are similar in name and listed in PA.

bigmarv45
bigmarv54
bigmar25
bigmar5

RonManola2005 · October 10, 2005 4:39AM

He is a fradulent dealer so in my opinion, no.
RonManola2005

mercurydimeguy · October 10, 2005 4:44AM

<< He is a fradulent dealer so in my opinion, no.
RonManola2005 >>

Fraud is knowingly, or willingly conspiriing to sell counterfeit material. Selling a genuine coin (if his coins are indeed genuine) in a 3rd party slab is no different than selling a piece of jewelry with a 14k stamp on it...you are merely selliing someone else's opinion. Selling a raw coin at a grade you believe it to be is no different than selling an uncertified, raw diamond. A buyer should take that in to account.

The problem is that certification woes are not only part of coins, but other businesses as well...such as the diamond industry, for instance. There are also different gemologists / certification firms and even their opinions differ.

RonManola2005 · October 10, 2005 4:49AM

Is there a way to report these auctions or seller?
RonManola2005

MikeInFL · October 10, 2005 4:55AM

<< Whats any different with this auction, or the selling of a coin, that has not been going on in this Hobby forever ? >>

Just because it's been going on foverever doesn't make it right...Mike

relayer · October 10, 2005 5:02AM

Yes

1) He's got the PCGS Price Guide price listed in the title
2) He's got private auction set so nobody can warn the unsuspecting bidder
3) He's got a 1 day auction so eBay won't have time to shut him down.

Looks like he's done everything OK

Ohiocoinguy · October 10, 2005 5:05AM

This dealer is a scumbag. He tricks newbies by using using a certified looking slab. Then throws out a large possible worth for the coin. This dealer is even worse than the guys who sell supposed unsearched hoards of coins. Ebay should ban these clowns.

markglicker · October 10, 2005 5:10AM

Maybe he is using the new 100 pt. scale.

mercurydimeguy · October 10, 2005 5:14AM

<< Maybe he is using the new 100 pt. scale. >>

coinguy1 · October 10, 2005 5:15AM

Here is a link for reporting him, though I have already done so and Ebay has done nothing:

Link for reporting

If the accounts (one of which is no longer active) listed by JBiggs are all for the same person, perhaps Ebay will have a problem with that.

<< Whats any different with this auction, or the selling of a coin, that has not been going on in this Hobby forever ? >>

Ken, to me, one difference is that the seller's cloaking the listing by selling in a do-it-yourself slab with a do-it-yourself grade. As incredible and/or sad as it is to believe, many buyers will not realize the slab and grading label are such until it's too late.

kiyote · October 10, 2005 5:21AM

I've seen worse.. (Heck, I've DONE worse) but I think in the eyes of the law, it's not illegal. In the eyes of Ebay, it's very questionable, but should be allowed.

Education, education, education.

FatMan · October 10, 2005 5:32AM

Is this OK? Not in my eyes. It is unethical to present an item at a certain grade, and not deliver a coin anywhere close. Is it legal? Sure. As so many have said grading is an opinion. It is not black and white and who is to say that is not what the seller believes it to be. Maybe he bought it holdered that way and really believes it.

In my opinion, the only way to really protect buyers on ebay would be to provide a disclaimer (facts) page that the bidder would have to check mark just like a TOS agreement to move forward to the final submit bid page. The Disclaimer would caution / educate the bidder about the subjectivity of grading, differences in acceptance of TPG holdered coins, and anything else relevant to purchasing coins on eBay. It should provide links to the ANA and other educational websites. This could be provided to eBay by the PNG, the ANA, or even the new Coin Posse. I suspect ebay would resist, but if all concerned were to focus the same energies we use picking out each individual scammer to pressuring ebay it just might get accomplished.

Myqqy · October 10, 2005 5:42AM

I've seen worse.. (Heck, I've DONE worse)

Care to elaborate on that??

Barry · October 10, 2005 5:45AM

It is OK?
No, but as long as there are suckers, there will be con artists.

Bochiman · October 10, 2005 6:31AM

<< Yes

1) He's got the PCGS Price Guide price listed in the title
2) He's got private auction set so nobody can warn the unsuspecting bidder
3) He's got a 1 day auction so eBay won't have time to shut him down.

Looks like he's done everything OK >>

Relayer gets best SPOTD I think

Sarcastic POTD

Fairlaneman · October 10, 2005 7:15AM

<< 

<< Whats any different with this auction, or the selling of a coin, that has not been going on in this Hobby forever ? >>

Just because it's been going on foverever doesn't make it right...Mike >>

I Did Not say it was right.

Its just a fact that what this guy is doing is the same thing you can see almost anywhere within this hobby/business. The next paragraph states what I think about this type of selling.

Again, I do not condone his auction and the selling of the coin in any way. Please do not twist the words to suit your fancy.

Ken

Fairlaneman · October 10, 2005 7:24AM

<< Here is a link for reporting him, though I have already done so and Ebay has done nothing:

Link for reporting

If the accounts (one of which is no longer active) listed by JBiggs are all for the same person, perhaps Ebay will have a problem with that.

<< Whats any different with this auction, or the selling of a coin, that has not been going on in this Hobby forever ? >>

Ken, to me, one difference is that the seller's cloaking the listing by selling in a do-it-yourself slab with a do-it-yourself grade. As incredible and/or sad as it is to believe, many buyers will not realize the slab and grading label are such until it's too late. >>

Whoa !!!! I missed the grade on the slab when I looked at the auction. This makes it a whole different Ball Game and is very deceiving for a New Collector. Still its just the guys opinion but the opinion could very easily sucker in a newer collector.

I still do not know how we, as collectors, can educate newer collectors to be very aware of "Sucker Bait" like this auction. This forum helps but in the day to day watching of coins on Ebay there are a whole bunch of folks paying way too much money for coins with pessimistic grades attached to them.

Ken

IrishMike · October 10, 2005 7:31AM

Yes its a fraudulent transaction.

JustGotRipped · October 10, 2005 7:51AM

You can't cheat an honest (and informed) man.

mercurydimeguy · October 10, 2005 7:59AM

Check ou this feedback left:

ILikeDimes · October 10, 2005 8:04AM

Scumbag......YES....................

Newbies?........bakemanhere ( 705) ........Member since: Dec-05-01
.......................jackies1225 ( 143) ...........Member since: Feb-06-03............Not hardly!

Is what this Ebay seller is doing, "ok"? Most definitely not...

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Is what this Ebay seller is doing, &quot;ok&quot;? Most definitely not...

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Is what this Ebay seller is doing, "ok"? Most definitely not...