POLL: should PCGS and the other TPG's go to a 100-point grading system?
pharmer
Posts: 8,355 ✭
Since PCGS will be discussing this at the panel discussion mentioned in Fatman's thread, they should know the opinions of forum members. Since the grading system was in place when they came into existence, I do not believe it is their province to change it. They of course can adopt whatever business model they choose. But the question that must be asked is, is it good for numismatics as a whole?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
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Camelot
Take your basic 12 inch ruler. Can you consistenly measure something to 4 decimal places? I didn't think so.
Coin grading is no different. The crackout biz and all the stories we hear about resubmissions (58, 62, 63, no grade, 62, 58, etc.) PROVES that coin grading is imprecise. Does precision increase by expanding the scale? NO! It further DECREASES!
It makes no sense to change the scale to 100 pts, unless you're a TPG and simply want to stimulate resubmissions to generate more income.
<< <i>It should have been based on a 100 point scale to begin with. It could work if the grading increments were held to either 2 1/2 points or five points-i.e.-MS70; MS72.5; MS75 etc. I'm sure that will never happen, tho. The minimum Mint state grade should be MS70-like a pass (MS70=MS) or fail (less than MS70=circulated) on a test. In spite of the confusion and/or abuse, I am in favor of such a scale. >>
Your post has confused me already in just three sentences.
The 70 point scale started to be used on ALL U.S. coins in the mid 1970s. By the time third party grading came on line it was well established.
To me the 100 point scale falls in the same category marketed men classify funerals. It’s an “unwanted good.”
This is a very bad idea, and if PCGS wants to shoot itself in the foot, it can go for it.
When your opinions cost collectors thousands of dollars, don't expect them to pat you on the back.
I wonder what Dr. Sheldon would think.
If this goes through you will not immune. You will either have to spend money or reholdering your collection or get lower prices for it when the time comes to sell.
<< <i>You will either have to spend money or reholdering your collection or get lower prices for it when the time comes to sell. >>
Of course the flip side is that your PQ coins will now grade higher relative to the dogs at the same grade. A premium quality MS65 may translate to an MS91, while the other guys low-end MS65 translates to an MS90 or MS89. Thus one could actually profit from such a conversion if they've put together a high-end collection for the respective grades.
No I find nothing appealing about your upgrade argument. We've got 11 Mint State grades now, and you can get different grades each time you submit the same coin. 20+ MS grades are only going to make the situation worse.
<< <i>We've got 11 Mint State grades now, and you can get different grades each time you submit the same coin. >>
Bill, I'm not trying to pick a fight so please don't read any "tone" in my arguement. However, if you're going to state "you can get different grades each time you submit the same coin" then why bother with the submission in the first place?
<< <i>
<< <i>We've got 11 Mint State grades now, and you can get different grades each time you submit the same coin. >>
Bill, I'm not trying to pick a fight so please don't read any "tone" in my arguement. However, if you're going to state "you can get different grades each time you submit the same coin" then why bother with the submission in the first place? >>
You have got to submit expensive coins for grading because you can't sell them for decent prices if they are raw. That's the way it works today. If an expensive coin is offered raw at a bourse or if it is in an off-brand holder, there is usually something wrong with it. That's what the situation has come to.
If the name of Dr. Sheldon is so offensive to some, simply change the name of the current system to the "Standardized 70 Point System" and leave well enough alone.
Personally, I am able to separate the concept of the system from the man.
Thomas Edison cheated others and was a very repulsive individual, but I'm not offended when I turn on the lights. Sheesh!!
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i><<We've got 11 Mint State grades now, and you can get different grades each time you submit the same coin. >>
Bill, I'm not trying to pick a fight so please don't read any "tone" in my arguement. However, if you're going to state "you can get different grades each time you submit the same coin" then why bother with the submission in the first place? >>
You have got to submit expensive coins for grading because you can't sell them for decent prices if they are raw. That's the way it works today. If an expensive coin is offered raw at a bourse or if it is in an off-brand holder, there is usually something wrong with it. That's what the situation has come to. >>
I'll agree with you in this respect. The market is such that any coin NOT in a respected TPG can't sell for a respectable price. Still, I believe TPG's do show some general consistency or else the market place would never have accepted them.
<< <i>Of course the flip side is that your PQ coins will now grade higher relative to the dogs at the same grade. A premium quality MS65 may translate to an MS91, while the other guys low-end MS65 translates to an MS90 or MS89. Thus one could actually profit from such a conversion if they've put together a high-end collection for the respective grades. >>
Exactly! And since most all of the slabs I hold on to are PQ for the grade, I am all for it!
Edit: And I can not believe the "chicken-little attitude" (the sky is falling!) most have taken on this subject.
The topic was simply thrown out there for discussion. Yet most of the posts have a "..it's just a matter of time b4 the TPG services do us this great disservice." attitude.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
They holder market acceptable cleaned coins. So a cleaned coin gets a 1 out of 10 for original surfaces?
What is the difference between a 1 for original surfaces and a body bag?
Sounds way shady if ya ask me. It also sounds like someone wants to make a system for thier personal use.
PURPLE!
<< <i>And I can not believe the "chicken-little attitude" (the sky is falling!) most have taken on this subject. >>
I'll admit, I'm also surprised at the emotion this subject has evoked in many forum members.
Perhaps I'm not taking it seriously enough.
Or perhaps I don't believe it will actually happen.
Whitman publishes the Red Book -- regarded by most as a staple of numismatics -- and a host of other numismatic literature. Whitman also owns Anacs. How can Whitman disrupt the current grading paradigm (and TPG market dominance, which Anacs currently doesn't have) thereby gaining a competitive advantage for Anacs? Simple -- Whitman changes the grading standard to a 100 point scale and Anacs adopts it. Whitman uses their publishing business to make the 100 point scale a reality, and positions Anacs as the "new" leader in a "new" era of numismatics. Mark my word, people will begin to adopt it, and if the other TPG's don't, they will simply begin to loose marketshare.
So, why is PCGS all of a suddent contemplating a 100 point grading scale? Simple -- in order not to get left standing at the plate watching a curve ball sneak in to the strike box, for strike 3, they are trying to get ahead of a slow curve so they can smack it out of the ballpark. In direct terms, PCGS has no choice but to think about a 100 point grade scale, and instead of reacting (which would probably be too late) they are looking to preempt!
<< <i>Perhaps I'm not taking it seriously enough. >>
No you are not. When I had my raw collection slabbed, it cost me as much as $125.00 per coin plus shipping to have it done. The reason was that once coins have a value beyond a certain amount you have to pay that to get work done. The desire for a quick turnover has nothing to do with it.
I went though the usual. I had coins that were graded correctly. I got some gifts. I got some undergrades. And I got some body bags, both deserved and undeserved.
Now after going though that and spending several thousand dollars to get my collection slabbed, we now have this threat that will make all of my slabs obsolete. I'll have to spend thousands of dollars to hold the value of my collection. The guarantee that the slabs would help to maintain the values of the my collection because the grades were certified to be correct will be null and void. PLUS all the coins that I have purchased in slabs will be obsolete. I’ll have to have them regraded too.
Can you understand why I am not happy with this? Most of my better coins are high grade circulated early pieces. There will be no “Mint State windfalls" for me. It will be mostly a downside all the way.
<< <i>Or perhaps I don't believe it will actually happen. >>
There is an excellent chance that it is going to happen. David Hall would not be pushing it at his little dinners that he has with collectors if this were not a real threat. He wants to stuff this down our throats so that he can increase his profits. It's just that simple. And despite the fact that 75% of the respondents to the current poll oppose this, he'll probably do it anyway. And if he does do it, he will show a total lack of respect for many of the people who have made his business a success through the years. And he will have also broken trust with the collectors who depended upon the integrity of his product.
I believe such a proposed change is merely a marketing tool, as the powers that be apparently think that virtually all of the classic coins worth grading have already been slabbed.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
I wonder how collectors and dealers felt about the idea of TPG's before NGC and PCGS came around?
TorinoCobra71
I think this is really much a-do about nothing. PCGS will talk about it-that's it! It's like when the Lutherans(sp?) and Catholics started a dialogue 15-20 years ago. There will be some warm fuzzy talk and they will agree to disagree on most things and then break for lunch.
Relax and have a
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Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
If they can maintain their batting average (world class graders agree 75% of the time) and split 10 MS grades into 20 at the same time, there would be a powerful argument to differentiate themselves in the market. I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any way they could grade that consistently across 20 MS grades. They're good but they ain't that good.
Is this just hype to confuse people and a way to get more money through re-slabing fees
<< <i>Using the 70 point system there are already holes throughout ie. there are MS53, MS55 and MS58 graded coins but no MS54, MS65 or MS57 graded coins why do they need to go to a 100 point sytem when they are already skipping numbers in the 70 point system
>>
The problem is that they don't care about hardly any of the first 59 grades.
To me, decimal grading makes more sense if they want to go and expand the scale. It gives them an infinite scale between 60 and 70 to differentiate in without screwing anything else up.
The first is psychological. They might be able to persuade people into thinking they can grade MS coins to 20 or 30 distinct levels by using MS78, MS82, etc. It would be a tougher sell if they tried to use 64.66 and 65.25. People would tend to think the latter is ridiculous. No one can grade to a fraction.
The other problem is that there would be no pressing need to get your coins re-holdered. An MS65 would still be at least an MS65. It might be an MS65.25 or an MS65.66 but at worst it will still be MS65. It is the same scale. Not true if your MS65 now needs to be reholdered to an MS82 or MS83 on a whole new scale.
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Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
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Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."