Is it against the law to be a coin doctor? If it is not then how do you get rid of them?Heck no one that even knows one will mention a name for fear of being sued.By the way I don't know any before anyone even asks.
''Coin collecting is the only hobby where you can spend all your money and still have some left''
I'll give you a name. According to our office manager, we had a jar of Jeweluster that "went missing" right about the time Mark Feld left Pinnacle. Since then, I've been seeing A LOT more untoned type coins on the market. A coincidence? I think not. Clearly, Feld is the guy everyone should be jumping on.
Todd L. Imhof Partner / Executive VP Heritage Auctions
<< <i>I'll give you a name. According to our office manager, we had a jar of Jeweluster that "went missing" right about the time Mark Feld left Pinnacle. Since then, I've been seeing A LOT more untoned type coins on the market. A coincidence? I think not. Clearly, Feld is the guy everyone should be jumping on. >>
Before the Countryside shows was mentioned, I had never heard of the town of Countryside...that's the measure of insignificance.
WTCG, that is a rather pretentious statement. I read it as this: "just because I have not heard of this show, it must not be important". For your information, some of the nation's top dealers were there. Perhaps not the self-proclaimed elite legion of coc-key, pretentious, arrogant dealers who profess to rule the "coin market", but rather real dealers who are more concerned about making a customer happy by filling a vacant hole in their coin album. Perhaps that is why I like the Countryside show; the air is refreshingly free of pretentious "national dealers" who are more plastic dealers than they are coin dealers.
As has been previously stated, it is not illegal to "doctor" coins. It should be illegal to maliciously doctor coins. Fraud statutes, already in place, may, indeed, already make some of these activities illegal.
What is necessary is for the TPG's to get better at detecting maliciously doctored coins; those that are altered to make them appear better than they actually are. No one is whizzing coins any longer. It is a different kind of doctoring that is happening today.
Is dipping doctoring? IMHO, the answer is no. Dipping, in many cases, drastically improves the coins appearance and consequently its value. On occasion, I dip coins. Virtually all of my professional colleagues do. Are we doctors for dipping?? Again, IMHO, no, although there are some that may disagree.
Weimar White, a chemist and advanced numismatist, posits that toned coins are damaged. In general, I do not agree, but I have improved heavily tarnished coins by removing disfiguring tarnish.
Ask Jim Halperin or Steve Ivy about a certain 1795 dollar that Jim purchased from Steve back in the 1970's.
Does NCS doctor maliciously? Again, the answer is no. Did PCGS doctor the SSCA gold coins maliciously? No, they just made them more attractive. Some like the looks of dipped or conserved coins. Some do not. Some like chocolate. Some like vanilla.
Do all collectors like the same look to coins? Absolutely not!!
The real problem lies with the public's perception of the TPG's. Many believe that if it is an accepted holder then it has been blessed. Consequently, the services MUST get better at detection. That is one of the reason that many coins are BB'd. The services do not know if something has been retoned, so they just body bag it. It is much simpler for them and they have no liability.
An educated consumer is the best tool against doctoring. Education comes from experience. It is also helpful to get other opinions.
The bottom line is that there are differing opinions on what has happened to a coin since it was struck.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Suppose someone were to step up to the plate and outright name one or more of these Docs.
Then what????? Whay are your motives here? Hundreds of people know who Karl is referring to. PCGS knows who made the Buffalo Nick-el that DK has referred you to pictured in the PCGS guide book. If they cant stop this activity, what makes you think putting the name(s) here in the forum will have any effect?
Give it up WTCG, your looking really lame.
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
I do believe that this is a valuable thread, not that it names anyone, which would be fruitless, but that it gets people talking about doctoring, in general.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>I do believe that this is a valuable thread... >>
I respectfully disagree, Julian.
This thread is yet another ego puffing, saber rattling, go-no-where type where nothing will be resolved and nothing will be learned. Gradeflation, coin doctoring, crackouts and crossovers, AT, NT, and all other "let's merrily bash the hell outta each other" threads seem to dominate this forum anymore, and I for one am quite bored with it. There's still plenty of very useful information to be found here, but it seems to be increasingly buried beneath petty rivalry and BS.
Yes, there are coin doctros out here, and many are ruining coins. Name them if you want, but you'll never stop them. Too many people benefit financially from their services, so it will be aound forever. This is just a hobby to some, but it's a business to others. Business exists to make profit, coin doctors are profitable, so they'll never go away. Simple as that. Coin posse, Legend, Laura, Dorkkarl, or Albanese, who ever, will never do more than make a dent. Sorry guys.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>As has been previously stated, it is not illegal to "doctor" coins. It should be illegal to maliciously doctor coins. Fraud statutes, already in place, may, indeed, already make some of these activities illegal.
What is necessary is for the TPG's to get better at detecting maliciously doctored coins; those that are altered to make them appear better than they actually are. No one is whizzing coins any longer. It is a different kind of doctoring that is happening today.
Is dipping doctoring? IMHO, the answer is no. Dipping, in many cases, drastically improves the coins appearance and consequently its value. On occasion, I dip coins. Virtually all of my professional colleagues do. Are we doctors for dipping?? Again, IMHO, no, although there are some that may disagree.
Weimar White, a chemist and advanced numismatist, posits that toned coins are damaged. In general, I do not agree, but I have improved heavily tarnished coins by removing disfiguring tarnish.
Ask Jim Halperin or Steve Ivy about a certain 1795 dollar that Jim purchased from Steve back in the 1970's.
Does NCS doctor maliciously? Again, the answer is no. Did PCGS doctor the SSCA gold coins maliciously? No, they just made them more attractive. Some like the looks of dipped or conserved coins. Some do not. Some like chocolate. Some like vanilla.
Do all collectors like the same look to coins? Absolutely not!!
The real problem lies with the public's perception of the TPG's. Many believe that if it is an accepted holder then it has been blessed. Consequently, the services MUST get better at detection. That is one of the reason that many coins are BB'd. The services do not know if something has been retoned, so they just body bag it. It is much simpler for them and they have no liability.
An <STRONG>educated</STRONG> consumer is the best tool against doctoring. Education comes from experience. It is also helpful to get other opinions.
The bottom line is that there are differing opinions on what has happened to a coin since it was struck. >>
And some people may like the looks of an AT coin...some may even like the looks of a coin which has been lasered to remove an inperfection better than they did prior to the doctoring.
Either a coin has been worked on or it hasn't. The problem isn't whether or not a coin is "market acceptable". It is people who distroy the history of a coin in search of that one extra point on a label.
Jim
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
The TPG's could stop feeding the crackout/dip/upgrade weasels by knocking a couple of points off for lack of originality on pre-morgan coins, but nah, those resubmissions are a growth industry and grade inflation extracts more money out of those in the coin hobby to those in the coin industry. Greed is good!
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Elitist? I disagree. I think of myself as one of the friendlier dealers found on any given bourse floor. Meet me and I'll prove that in person.
Instead of complaining about coin doctors here, a more productive method would be confronting them in person the next time you see a possible coin doctor. Talking about them here isn't productive.
I have a flight to catch right now, see you all later.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i><< i'd really like to see what all the fuss is about, and not some ebay shake and bake morgan, something that gives credence to the claims of their alleged talents. >>
that's easy, pull out your "pcgs official guide to coin grading and counterfeit detection", 1st edition (co) 1997, turn to page c-21. it's right there in full color. >>
<< <i>Instead of complaining about coin doctors here, a more productive method would be confronting them in person the next time you see a possible coin doctor. >>
Tell us, WTCG, how many coin doctors have you confronted?
<< <i>I'll give you a name. According to our office manager, we had a jar of Jeweluster that "went missing" right about the time Mark Feld left Pinnacle. Since then, I've been seeing A LOT more untoned type coins on the market. A coincidence? I think not. Clearly, Feld is the guy everyone should be jumping on. >>
The dealers don't/wont identify the coin doctors because, among other reasons:
1) They have heard rumors that various people have doctored coins, but have no first hand knowledge/proof of such. 2) They have heard people bragging about being coin doctors but have never seen them in action. 3) They are coin doctors themselves. 4) They would have to out some of their friends and/or better dealer contacts/customers.
I have no doubt that there are many coin doctors out there - I have heard about them from others whose word I have no reason to doubt. I have heard a few people bragging about having done this or that to coins. I have seen coins in the holders of highly respected grading companies which people claim to know have been doctored.
Fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately, I have not seen dealers doctor coins (I don't include dipping in my definition of doctoring). So, despite "knowing" that dealers doctor coins, I wouldn't out anyone without direct/first hand proof/evidence. Admittedly, even then, if I had proof that a friend were doing it, I'd be in a very uncomfortable/difficult position.
<< <i>Instead of complaining about coin doctors here, a more productive method would be confronting them in person the next time you see a possible coin doctor. >>
Tell us, WTCG, how many coin doctors have you confronted?
Russ, NCNE >>
Putting fresh silver "actor's makup" on a Morgan's cheek is not different to these guys than a whore putting on their night cream. Confronting the dealers of the coin doctors, or pimps of the prostitutes might get some good laughs--as long as they don't shoot you. Ask Ex: ANA President Robert Campbell about threats.
<< <i>After reading this thread I realized that Wei tried to make a point and the people here took everything out of perspective. My opinion is that Wei has nothing to prove as he did not accuse any single person of being a coin doctor. The other thread that is in question accused a few people of being coin doctors, so I think specific proof is required there.
I believe Wei made a great point in the original post >>
I agree---and would suggest to Wei that he attach a post like his to the original thread which will provide the necessary context--starting a new one invites misunderstanding. JMHO
<< <i>Before the Countryside shows was mentioned, I had never heard of the town of Countryside...that's the measure of insignificance. WTCG, that is a rather pretentious statement. I read it as this: "just because I have not heard of this show, it must not be important". For your information, some of the nation's top dealers were there. Perhaps not the self-proclaimed elite legion of coc-key, pretentious, arrogant dealers who profess to rule the "coin market", but rather real dealers who are more concerned about making a customer happy by filling a vacant hole in their coin album. Perhaps that is why I like the Countryside show; the air is refreshingly free of pretentious "national dealers" who are more plastic dealers than they are coin dealers. >>
I would concur with Dennis on that. But I don't set up at Countryside because its bourse fee for a one day show is the highest in Illinois. I used to set up at Lemont, but since I moved downstate that doesn't happen anymore. As far as those who doctor coins, sooner or later their activities will gang up on them. But I would stop short of naming those who do such things, as I feel that it could be grounds for a lawsuit, unless, of course, you can prove it without a shadow of doubt!
DORAN COINS - On Facebook, Instagram, X (formerly Twitter), & www.dorancoins.net - UPCOMING SHOWS (tentative dates)- 2/26/2026 - Joliet, IL
Comments
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
According to our office manager, we had a jar of Jeweluster that "went missing" right about the time Mark Feld left Pinnacle. Since then, I've been seeing A LOT more untoned type coins on the market. A coincidence? I think not. Clearly, Feld is the guy everyone should be jumping on.
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
<< <i>I'll give you a name.
According to our office manager, we had a jar of Jeweluster that "went missing" right about the time Mark Feld left Pinnacle. Since then, I've been seeing A LOT more untoned type coins on the market. A coincidence? I think not. Clearly, Feld is the guy everyone should be jumping on. >>
Knew it!
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
And what were you doing with a jar of Jeweluster? Pot, kettle, black...
Before the Countryside shows was mentioned, I had never heard of the town of Countryside...that's the measure of insignificance.
WTCG, that is a rather pretentious statement. I read it as this: "just because I have not heard of this show, it must not be important". For your information, some of the nation's top dealers were there. Perhaps not the self-proclaimed elite legion of coc-key, pretentious, arrogant dealers who profess to rule the "coin market", but rather real dealers who are more concerned about making a customer happy by filling a vacant hole in their coin album. Perhaps that is why I like the Countryside show; the air is refreshingly free of pretentious "national dealers" who are more plastic dealers than they are coin dealers.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
What is necessary is for the TPG's to get better at detecting maliciously doctored coins; those that are altered to make them appear better than they actually are. No one is whizzing coins any longer. It is a different kind of doctoring that is happening today.
Is dipping doctoring? IMHO, the answer is no. Dipping, in many cases, drastically improves the coins appearance and consequently its value. On occasion, I dip coins. Virtually all of my professional colleagues do. Are we doctors for dipping?? Again, IMHO, no, although there are some that may disagree.
Weimar White, a chemist and advanced numismatist, posits that toned coins are damaged. In general, I do not agree, but I have improved heavily tarnished coins by removing disfiguring tarnish.
Ask Jim Halperin or Steve Ivy about a certain 1795 dollar that Jim purchased from Steve back in the 1970's.
Does NCS doctor maliciously? Again, the answer is no. Did PCGS doctor the SSCA gold coins maliciously? No, they just made them more attractive. Some like the looks of dipped or conserved coins. Some do not. Some like chocolate. Some like vanilla.
Do all collectors like the same look to coins? Absolutely not!!
The real problem lies with the public's perception of the TPG's. Many believe that if it is an accepted holder then it has been blessed. Consequently, the services MUST get better at detection. That is one of the reason that many coins are BB'd. The services do not know if something has been retoned, so they just body bag it. It is much simpler for them and they have no liability.
An educated consumer is the best tool against doctoring. Education comes from experience. It is also helpful to get other opinions.
The bottom line is that there are differing opinions on what has happened to a coin since it was struck.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Suppose someone were to step up to the plate and outright name one or more of these Docs.
Then what????? Whay are your motives here? Hundreds of people know who Karl is referring to. PCGS knows who made the Buffalo Nick-el
If they cant stop this activity, what makes you think putting the name(s) here in the forum will have any effect?
Give it up WTCG, your looking really lame.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
And, after that last bill ($1200!?!?! What, am I financing your whole collection here, doc?) he sent me, I'll name names.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>I do believe that this is a valuable thread... >>
I respectfully disagree, Julian.
This thread is yet another ego puffing, saber rattling, go-no-where type where nothing will be resolved and nothing will be learned. Gradeflation, coin doctoring, crackouts and crossovers, AT, NT, and all other "let's merrily bash the hell outta each other" threads seem to dominate this forum anymore, and I for one am quite bored with it. There's still plenty of very useful information to be found here, but it seems to be increasingly buried beneath petty rivalry and BS.
Yes, there are coin doctros out here, and many are ruining coins. Name them if you want, but you'll never stop them. Too many people benefit financially from their services, so it will be aound forever. This is just a hobby to some, but it's a business to others. Business exists to make profit, coin doctors are profitable, so they'll never go away. Simple as that. Coin posse, Legend, Laura, Dorkkarl, or Albanese, who ever, will never do more than make a dent. Sorry guys.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>As has been previously stated, it is not illegal to "doctor" coins. It should be illegal to maliciously doctor coins. Fraud statutes, already in place, may, indeed, already make some of these activities illegal.
What is necessary is for the TPG's to get better at detecting maliciously doctored coins; those that are altered to make them appear better than they actually are. No one is whizzing coins any longer. It is a different kind of doctoring that is happening today.
Is dipping doctoring? IMHO, the answer is no. Dipping, in many cases, drastically improves the coins appearance and consequently its value. On occasion, I dip coins. Virtually all of my professional colleagues do. Are we doctors for dipping?? Again, IMHO, no, although there are some that may disagree.
Weimar White, a chemist and advanced numismatist, posits that toned coins are damaged. In general, I do not agree, but I have improved heavily tarnished coins by removing disfiguring tarnish.
Ask Jim Halperin or Steve Ivy about a certain 1795 dollar that Jim purchased from Steve back in the 1970's.
Does NCS doctor maliciously? Again, the answer is no. Did PCGS doctor the SSCA gold coins maliciously? No, they just made them more attractive. Some like the looks of dipped or conserved coins. Some do not. Some like chocolate. Some like vanilla.
Do all collectors like the same look to coins? Absolutely not!!
The real problem lies with the public's perception of the TPG's. Many believe that if it is an accepted holder then it has been blessed. Consequently, the services MUST get better at detection. That is one of the reason that many coins are BB'd. The services do not know if something has been retoned, so they just body bag it. It is much simpler for them and they have no liability.
An <STRONG>educated</STRONG> consumer is the best tool against doctoring. Education comes from experience. It is also helpful to get other opinions.
The bottom line is that there are differing opinions on what has happened to a coin since it was struck. >>
And some people may like the looks of an AT coin...some may even
Either a coin has been worked on or it hasn't. The problem isn't whether or not a coin is "market acceptable". It is people who distroy the history of a coin in search of that one extra point on a label.
Jim
Instead of complaining about coin doctors here, a more productive method would be confronting them in person the next time you see a possible coin doctor. Talking about them here isn't productive.
I have a flight to catch right now, see you all later.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>I like this post
Agreed!!!
<< <i><< i'd really like to see what all the fuss is about, and not some ebay shake and bake morgan, something that gives credence to the claims of their alleged talents. >>
that's easy, pull out your "pcgs official guide to coin grading and counterfeit detection", 1st edition (co) 1997, turn to page c-21. it's right there in full color. >>
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Instead of complaining about coin doctors here, a more productive method would be confronting them in person the next time you see a possible coin doctor. >>
Tell us, WTCG, how many coin doctors have you confronted?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I'll give you a name.
According to our office manager, we had a jar of Jeweluster that "went missing" right about the time Mark Feld left Pinnacle. Since then, I've been seeing A LOT more untoned type coins on the market. A coincidence? I think not. Clearly, Feld is the guy everyone should be jumping on. >>
lol
The dealers don't/wont identify the coin doctors because, among other reasons:
1) They have heard rumors that various people have doctored coins, but have no first hand knowledge/proof of such.
2) They have heard people bragging about being coin doctors but have never seen them in action.
3) They are coin doctors themselves.
4) They would have to out some of their friends and/or better dealer contacts/customers.
I have no doubt that there are many coin doctors out there - I have heard about them from others whose word I have no reason to doubt. I have heard a few people bragging about having done this or that to coins. I have seen coins in the holders of highly respected grading companies which people claim to know have been doctored.
Fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately, I have not seen dealers doctor coins (I don't include dipping in my definition of doctoring). So, despite "knowing" that dealers doctor coins, I wouldn't out anyone without direct/first hand proof/evidence. Admittedly, even then, if I had proof that a friend were doing it, I'd be in a very uncomfortable/difficult position.
<< <i>
<< <i>Instead of complaining about coin doctors here, a more productive method would be confronting them in person the next time you see a possible coin doctor. >>
Tell us, WTCG, how many coin doctors have you confronted?
Russ, NCNE >>
Putting fresh silver "actor's makup" on a Morgan's cheek is not different to these guys than a whore putting on their night cream. Confronting the dealers of the coin doctors, or pimps of the prostitutes might get some good laughs--as long as they don't shoot you. Ask Ex: ANA President Robert Campbell about threats.
<< <i>After reading this thread I realized that Wei tried to make a point and the people here took everything out of perspective. My opinion is that Wei has nothing to prove as he did not accuse any single person of being a coin doctor. The other thread that is in question accused a few people of being coin doctors, so I think specific proof is required there.
I believe Wei made a great point in the original post >>
I agree---and would suggest to Wei that he attach a post like his to the original thread which will provide the necessary context--starting a new one invites misunderstanding. JMHO
<< <i>Before the Countryside shows was mentioned, I had never heard of the town of Countryside...that's the measure of insignificance. WTCG, that is a rather pretentious statement. I read it as this: "just because I have not heard of this show, it must not be important". For your information, some of the nation's top dealers were there. Perhaps not the self-proclaimed elite legion of coc-key, pretentious, arrogant dealers who profess to rule the "coin market", but rather real dealers who are more concerned about making a customer happy by filling a vacant hole in their coin album. Perhaps that is why I like the Countryside show; the air is refreshingly free of pretentious "national dealers" who are more plastic dealers than they are coin dealers. >>
I would concur with Dennis on that. But I don't set up at Countryside because its bourse fee for a one day show is the highest in Illinois. I used to set up at Lemont, but since I moved downstate that doesn't happen anymore. As far as those who doctor coins, sooner or later their activities will gang up on them. But I would stop short of naming those who do such things, as I feel that it could be grounds for a lawsuit, unless, of course, you can prove it without a shadow of doubt!