A Challenge to Pursue The Real Coin Doctors

WTCG

Recently a forum member made several veiled references to coin doctors who were attending the Countryside, IL coin show. After several attempts to have the original poster reveal the names of the alleged coin doctors were fruitless, readers have no choice but to resort to guessing the identities of the people the poster was referring to.

I am terrible at picking out names from within pointless phrases, so like everybody else I have to guess who the posts were are referring to.

If my guesses are correct, then here is my problem with the original thread. The dealers that were named, under a cloak and dagger, are at best marginal to the numismatic industry. None of those presumably named are vital to this business, as none of them handle or doctor enough volume of coins to make a difference in the industry. In other words, none of the alleged coin doctors are a major factor in numismatics.

Here is my challenge...instead of attacking small volume coin doctors, why not focus attention on the major coin doctors? I mean the ones who doctor the high-priced coins worth at least five to six figures or doctors who destroy large quantities of beautiful, original coins in the name of upgrades. Those coin doctors are the ones who are worth stopping, not the amateurs.

If the original poster resents those alleged coin doctors as much as it seems like that he does here, I challenge him to confront those individuals in person at a future coin show. Complaining about them here solves nothing. Stopping the major coin doctors would be well worth the effort.

Please share your opinions.

relayer

Ummm...



I guess it's...












YOU

JSsson

I like this post

pharmer

And someone surely has an image of just one example of their work? I'd really like to see what all the fuss is about, and not some ebay shake and bake morgan, something that gives credence to the claims of their alleged talents.

-------------------------

dorkkarl

i'll assume this thread applies to me.



<< <i>Complaining about them here solves nothing. >>

what makes you think i'm complaining? where have i stated that? i've merely participated in discussions about coin dr's, but don't believe i've "complained" about them. & i have never, ever, not even once stated or implied that i resent coin dr's (although i thoroughly despise coin-dr-wannabe's).

on the contrary, i am on record as stating that "coin doctor" is not an evil term at all, that there is a perfectly legitimate, valid & necessary place in numismatics for coin doctor services, "legend" be dammed.

furthermore, i personally couldn't give a rat's rearend if there are people out there are stupid enough (or maybe smart enough) to spend big $$$ on doctored coins (ie rainbow jobs, etc). collect what you want to collect - that is my mantra.

stating that certain dr's that show up at countryside are "marginal" is a foolish accusation, when on the contrary, his/their work is outstanding & well represented at major auctions. everyone knows that if you got a early lincoln cent that's ultra-high grade other than a carbon speck here there, give it to XXXX & he'll take care of it. got a p-l morgan that could make dmpl? you call XXXX. countless coins are in high-grade pcgs & ngc holders thanks to XXXX's skills. there really is a "santa claus" in numismatics, if you get my drift....

frankly, it doesn't really matter to me that he helps get such high-grade coins into slabs like that. people want them. & i say, let 'em have what they want.

1 more thing, it just so happens i did name 1 of the handful of largest, most notorious national coin dr's in that "other thread" as well.

K S

dorkkarl

<< <i>i'd really like to see what all the fuss is about, and not some ebay shake and bake morgan, something that gives credence to the claims of their alleged talents. >>

that's easy, pull out your "pcgs official guide to coin grading and counterfeit detection", 1st edition (co) 1997, turn to page c-21. it's right there in full color.

K S

WTCG

dorkkarl,

I haven't seen names named yet.

The dealers you sort of alluded to are marginal players if they're lucky. Their coins may be in auctions, but their volume of coins handled is miniscule compared to some others who are alleged coin doctors.

The "doctors" you see at Countryside...if you feel what they do is wrong, it is your perrogative to confront them. Don't moan about them here. Talk to them directly and tell them how you feel. I'm sure they're waiting for you.

Remember, the Countryside, IL show is an insignificant small local show. The bigger coin doctors don't attend shows on that small of scale.

stman

<< <i>Remember, the Countryside, IL show is an insignificant small local show. The bigger coin doctors don't attend shows on that small of scale. >>



Please share the ones you know of that don't attend this "insignificant" show. Please name the "bigger" coin doctors you speak of.

stman

<< <i>The bigger coin doctors don't attend shows on that small of scale. >>



Still waiting for names.

goose3

The table has been turned.

CarlWohlforth

Thanks stman. DK was lame 3 (or was it more?) years ago when he brought this up without naming names. Nobody has the nads to do anything about what they know. If anybody followed up DK's challenge and actually went to the show and learned who he was taking about and had any info to confirm it they should step forward. If I knew anything I would do something. Maybe. Maybe I just don't have any nads either. Anyway I don't know who is doing any mass doctoring, I was unable to attend that show far away many years ago....

jcping

Stman,

If you don't know who is the number one coin doctor in today's market, you are not in the market.
Go to national shows; you should be able to figure it out.

The problem that no one wants to name any is because the doctors are all very very rich and thus no one wants to get involved into law "trouble."

WTCG

stman,

I was not the one who brought up this subject originally. I asked the questions and I am awaiting responses. The burden is not on me to name the known coin doctors.

I was not the one who accused certain coin dealers of being doctors. It is the responsibility of the accuser to give us names of the people he felt were coin doctors.

Before the Countryside shows was mentioned, I had never heard of the town of Countryside...that's the measure of insignificance.

If you don't know who the biggest coin doctors are in this business, then you are a sideline observer and not as involved as you think are.

stman

<< <i>I was not the one who brought up this subject originally. I asked the questions and I am awaiting responses. >>



You started this thread. You made comments afterward. Still waiting for names.

WTCG

<< <i>

<< <i>I was not the one who brought up this subject originally. I asked the questions and I am awaiting responses. >>



You started this thread. You made comments afterward. Still waiting for names. >>



stman,

I started this thread in reference to an earlier thread. I did not accuse anyone of being a coin doctor.

I have no names to name. I have not accused anyone of being a coin doctor. The author in the other thread accused several individuals of being coin doctors. I have not done that.

mrearlygold

WTCG

<< <i>

The table has been turned. >>



I don't think so. The burden of proof is not on me as I have not accused any particular person of being a coin doctor.

stman

<< <i>If you don't know who the biggest coin doctors are in this business, then you are a sideline observer and not as involved as you think are. >>



Nice edit. I guess you need to attack how big of an observer I am. You opened the on this and now it's how big of an "observer" I am.
Frankly, I prefer to be a side-line observer. Not everybody cares to be "perceived" as a big-shot.

WTCG

<< <i>

<< <i>If you don't know who the biggest coin doctors are in this business, then you are a sideline observer and not as involved as you think are. >>



Nice edit. I guess you need to attack how big of an observer I am. You opened the on this and now it's how big of an "observer" I am.
Frankly, I prefer to be a side-line observer. Not everybody cares to be "perceived" as a big-shot. >>



Perceived? Wishful thinking on your part.

foodude

Wei,

Looks like your thread is being hijacked

Greg

tradedollarnut

Welcome to the forum!

WTCG

<< <i>Wei,

Looks like your thread is being hijacked

Greg >>



Hijacked because some people do not want to face the truth.

goose3

<< <i>

<< <i>

The table has been turned. >>



I don't think so. The burden of proof is not on me as I have not accused any particular person of being a coin doctor. >>




Yes, they got turned on you and clearly you didn't care to be placed in that position which is evidenced by your editing of posts/comments that directly relate to what Stman called you on and what I was laughing about.

WTCG

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

The table has been turned. >>



I don't think so. The burden of proof is not on me as I have not accused any particular person of being a coin doctor. >>




Yes, they got turned on you and clearly you didn't care to be placed in that position which is evidenced by your editing of posts/comments that directly relate to what Stman called you on and what I was laughing about.



>>



And what is that? Remind me.

goose3

my my my....yet another Legend in his own mind.

WTCG

<< <i>my my my....yet another Legend in his own mind. >>



I speak for myself. I am not affiliated with Legend in any respect.

goose3

who said you were?

while you may act like you are above most of us, clearly my comment went above your head.


edited (not to remove anything) but to add that as much fun as this is, I really need to head into town and work on our other house. Have a good evening everyone.

tradedollarnut

Albanese will take care of the problem in due time. If anyone can, it's John.

JSsson

After reading this thread I realized that Wei tried to make a point and the people here took everything out of perspective. My opinion is that Wei has nothing to prove as he did not accuse any single person of being a coin doctor. The other thread that is in question accused a few people of being coin doctors, so I think specific proof is required there.

I believe Wei made a great point in the original post

WTCG

<< <i>who said you were?

while you may act like you are above most of us, clearly my comment went above your head.


edited (not to remove anything) but to add that as much fun as this is, I really need to head into town and work on our other house. Have a good evening everyone. >>



Since when did I act above others? Give me proof.

When you mentioned the term "Legend" I saw it as an unsavory pun.

I wish I can continue with this thread, but I need to catch a plane in a few hours.

JSsson

I don't like reading attacking banter between two or three forum members. I propose that we get back in discussing the original topic that is at hand please.

JSsson

<< <i>

<< <i>Remember, the Countryside, IL show is an insignificant small local show. The bigger coin doctors don't attend shows on that small of scale. >>



Please share the ones you know of that don't attend this "insignificant" show. Please name the "bigger" coin doctors you speak of. >>



Wei did not say anybody in particular was a coin doctor so he does not have any names to name. It seems to me that when people don't have a decent rebuttal they have to resort to personal attacks. That is more apparent here than ever before.

Sharing the same "home turf" as Wei, I can concede that I have never heard of the city of Countryside. If the coin show was an important show then everybody would of heard of Countryside already.

BAJJERFAN

Why in the hell does anyone here expect someone to out a coin doctor esp a BEEG one when they won't even out a dealer who told a leetle white lie? DUH!!

foodude

Like many threads in this forum, I wonder how we started with the first post and progressed so OT several posts later. The gist of Wei's first post seem realatively clear. I thought he was only asking a question, be it a question I doubt will be answered here, not claiming to know the answer to the question he was asking....



This forum somnetimes reminds me that: yesterday today will be tomorrow, and tomorrow yesterday will be today (I can't remember who wrote that, I think I heard it somewhere)

WTCG

<< <i>come on Wei show some nads. Name just 1. Come on big shot just 1.


I CHALLENGE YOU TO NAME THEM. >>



Please refer to one of my previous responses. That'll answer your question.

Like I said before, I did not accuse anybody in particular for being a coin doctor. The author of another thread did accuse somebody of being a coin doctor. I have no names to name because I have not accused anybody of being a coin doctor.

Why don't you name someone?

BAJJERFAN

<<"Here is my challenge...instead of attacking small volume coin doctors, why not focus attention on the major coin doctors? I mean the ones who doctor the high-priced coins worth at least five to six figures or doctors who destroy large quantities of beautiful, original coins in the name of upgrades. Those coin doctors are the ones who are worth stopping, not the amateurs.">>

No one is gonna out the big boys here on a public forum. You need to have a system whereby names can be given in confidence AND then show that something is being done, not just pay lip service.

BAJJERFAN

instead of kickin ass and takin names you need to take names and then kick ass

WTCG

<< <i>I wont name one because I dont know any. I dont go to the major shows. I can tell you

this however if I made my living doing coin coin shows and was a major player you can bet

your a$$ I would be in the trenches get rid of those pigs. I would not be on some coin forum making

silly challenges when I dont have the nads to answer that same challenge. >>




If you do not know anything about this subject, then stay out of this discussion.

Somebody else initiated this discussion in a previous thread, and the burden of proof is on them. I have no obligation to provide responses to questions that are not relevant to this matter.

WTCG

<< <i><<"Here is my challenge...instead of attacking small volume coin doctors, why not focus attention on the major coin doctors? I mean the ones who doctor the high-priced coins worth at least five to six figures or doctors who destroy large quantities of beautiful, original coins in the name of upgrades. Those coin doctors are the ones who are worth stopping, not the amateurs.">>

No one is gonna out the big boys here on a public forum. You need to have a system whereby names can be given in confidence AND then show that something is being done, not just pay lip service. >>



I actually agree with BAJJERFAN on this one.

stman

<< <i>If you do not know anything about this subject, then stay out of this discussion. >>



Getting bossy eh?

WTCG

<< <i>Come on big shot try and run me off. Your all talk and obviously no action. Put up or SHUT UP. >>



What's the next coin show you are planning to be attending?

Oh so tough behind a computer monitor...

WTCG

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Come on big shot try and run me off. Your all talk and obviously no action. Put up or SHUT UP. >>



What's the next coin show you are planning to be attending?

Oh so tough behind a computer monitor... >>




why you gonna kick my butt?

why do you edit everything? >>



I make edits to check my grammar and spelling. Bad grammar and incorrect spelling annoy me.

PM sent.

stman

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Come on big shot try and run me off. Your all talk and obviously no action. Put up or SHUT UP. >>



What's the next coin show you are planning to be attending?

Oh so tough behind a computer monitor... >>




why you gonna kick my butt?

why do you edit everything? >>



Amazing!!!

JSsson

<< <i>Come on big shot try and run me off. Your all talk and obviously no action. Put up or SHUT UP. >>



That is extremely immature

Wei asked you what show you will be attending and you automatically assume the question is asked in malice?

Myqqy

What a nice thread! I don't think there's quite enough attitude in this one........

If you don't know who the biggest coin doctors are in this business, then you are a sideline observer and not as involved as you think are.
I have no names to name.

The first comment gives the appearance that you know who the biggest coin doctors are, since you are not a "sideline observer". But then you plead ignorance of specifics......

WTCG

Okay, I'll try to be civil in this reply.

If you know what to look for, you can go to any major coin convention such as Long Beach or Baltimore and look in and compare all of the display cases with coins for sale. Judging by the type, grade and look of the coins in each dealers' cases, you can get a good idea who the biggest doctoring offenders are.

The biggest offenders often have the same matching "look" for all their coins, whether it be color pattern, proof coin haziness, coins with a thumbed look, etc.

relayer

I'm going to score this one

WTCG: 1
Manofcoins: -1
stman: 0

Sorry guys, nice try. But keep it up and I'm sure you'll do great against State at the finals next month.

<<


<< <i>
<< Come on big shot try and run me off. Your all talk and obviously no action. Put up or SHUT UP. >>



What's the next coin show you are planning to be attending?

Oh so tough behind a computer monitor... >>




why you gonna kick my butt? >>

---

<< <i>
If you know what to look for, you can go to any major coin convention such as Long Beach or Baltimore and look in and compare all of the display cases with coins for sale. Judging by the type, grade and look of the coins in each dealers' cases, you can get a good idea who the biggest doctoring offenders are.

The biggest offenders often have the same matching "look" for all their coins, whether it be color pattern, proof coin haziness, coins with a thumbed look, etc.
>>

relayer

PLEASE HOLD ALL TICKETS
PLEASE HOLD ALL TICKETS

stman has entered a claim of foul and the stewards are reviewing the tape...


PLEASE HOLD ALL TICKETS
PLEASE HOLD ALL TICKETS




Ladies and Gentlemen, the stewards have upheld stman's claim of foul and he has been awarded a point.

The results are now official

WTCG: 1
stman: 1
Manofcoins: -1

Coinhusker1

<< <i>
or doctors who destroy large quantities of beautiful, original coins in the name of upgrades. Those coin doctors are the ones who are worth stopping, not the amateurs.

>>



Well, many would include NCS under this definition.

dorkkarl

<< <i>Before the Countryside shows was mentioned, I had never heard of the town of Countryside...that's the measure of insignificance. >>

naturally, if YOU have never heard of something, it must be insignificant, huh? jeeeezzz



<< <i>If the coin show was an important show then everybody would of heard of Countryside already. >>

more ridiculous, twisted reasoning in the same vein as above.

it would be like saying, "since nobody ever heard of your mama, she must not be important".



<< <i>I was not the one who brought up this subject originally >>

nor was i. actually, i see that you just joined last month, so apparently you have no clue of the context of my original thread from 3 years ago. i DID NOT initiate the discussions at that time about coin dr's. my thread was in response to a mutlitude of other threads at the time, when doctoring was a hot topic. please don't accuse me of initiating discussions when you are clueless of the facts.



<< <i>Somebody else initiated this discussion in a previous thread, and the burden of proof is on them. >>

that "somebody else" was not me, it was a multitude of forum members from 3 years ago who initiated the discussion of naming coin doctors. again, i understand that you were not here 3 years ago, so your unaware of the other threads going on at the time, but again, i WAS NOT the 1 who initiated discussions about naming coin dr's.



<< <i>If you know what to look for, you can go to any major coin convention such as Long Beach or Baltimore and look in and compare all of the display cases with coins for sale. Judging by the type, grade and look of the coins in each dealers' cases, you can get a good idea who the biggest doctoring offenders are. >>

naturally, coin dr's are so stupid that they doctor a buttload of coins, then set up at shows to sell same coins themselves. they would never think of selling the coins to dealers or auction houses, & having THEM sell the coins. just like, colombian druglords make illegal drugs, then walk the streets of our cities to sell them. druglords would never think of having somebody else sell the drugs for them.



<< <i>Albanese will take care of the problem in due time. If anyone can, it's John. >>

tradedollarnut, what "problem"? are you saying coin dr's are a "problem"? all of them? or just some of the time? please clarify.

ER

<< <i>

<< <i>Before the Countryside shows was mentioned, I had never heard of the town of Countryside...that's the measure of insignificance. >>

naturally, if YOU have never heard of something, it must be insignificant, huh? jeeeezzz



<< <i>If the coin show was an important show then everybody would of heard of Countryside already. >>

more ridiculous, twisted reasoning in the same vein as above.

it would be like saying, "since nobody ever heard of your mama, she must not be important".
............. >>

100% DK.

What do you call this? Ignorance? Arrogance? Elitist?