Dealer lying to me!

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 11:21AM

I sold a coin to a very well known dealer in June. He paid over bid because it had a nice pedigree on it. I noticed it was still sitting in his inventory as of right now. I offered him a fair price to buy it from him, however, he does not know that I was the one who had sold it to him, knowing how much he paid for the coin. He replied back lying about the price to me. What do you think of this?

Nick

Russ · September 8, 2005 11:25AM

<< What do you think of this? >>

I'm shocked that a dealer would lie.

Russ, NCNE

MadMarty · September 8, 2005 11:25AM

so, your point is? Most dealers will not tell the truth about what they paid for a coin...

lonelyp · September 8, 2005 11:26AM

Just wondering,

Is he asking a fair markup? Or coinvault type huge markup?

pz

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 11:30AM

I sold him the coin at a show, thus him not knowing my email. he was asking coin vault type of markup. still, if hes had this coin in his inventory for over 4 months, don't you think he wouldn't be so worried about a little loss, especially being such a bid dealer.

ER · September 8, 2005 11:32AM

<< I sold a coin to a very well known dealer in June. He paid over bid because it had a nice pedigree on it. I noticed it was still sitting in his inventory as of right now. I offered him a fair price to buy it from him, however, he does not know that I was the one who had sold it to him, knowing how much he paid for the coin. He replied back lieing about the price to me. What do you think of this?

Nick >>

I don't know how this could be a lie, the way you tell it.

FatMan · September 8, 2005 11:37AM

Now this is a real newsflash.....a dealer who tells you he has more in the coin than he really has in it. That's a first.

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 11:38AM

maybe you will understand in mathematic terms

I sold him the coin for x amount of dollars.

I offered to buy it from him as a dealer-dealer transaction for x-y dollars, which was a fair price

He countered saying he purchased the coin for x+4y at Baltimore, which is untrue.

Understand?

RKKay · September 8, 2005 11:41AM

<< I sold a coin to a very well known dealer in June. He paid over bid because it had a nice pedigree on it. I noticed it was still sitting in his inventory as of right now. I offered him a fair price to buy it from him, however, he does not know that I was the one who had sold it to him, knowing how much he paid for the coin. He replied back lieing about the price to me. What do you think of this?

Nick >>

It's very offensive; however, sadly enough, it is not uncommon in the business.

jdimmick · September 8, 2005 11:42AM

It doesnt matter what he paid for it. He made you an offer, (apparently fair) you accepted. What he decides to sell or list it for is his business. If you wanted to buy it back, then you probably shouldnt have sold it in the first place. If you did becuase of unforseen reasons and now have the means to repurchase it, then youll have to step up to the plate an buy it at his price. However, instead of asking for a price as a complete different buyer/stranger, you should have contacted him and discussed that you would like to have the opportunity to buy it back and what is the best he could do. As far as the lying part, yes its a bad thing thing, but not uncommon as most people especially dealers do not like to divuldge thier true purchase price, and I dont blame them.

jim

fivecents · September 8, 2005 11:43AM

<< however, he does not know that I was the one who had sold it to him, knowing how much he paid for the coin >>

You lied first, so you shouldn't be throwing stones. imo

Russ · September 8, 2005 11:45AM

chabot510,

Was your offer more or less than what you sold it to him for?

Russ, NCNE

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 11:45AM

Oh I have no regrets of selling the coin. I just figured that he was having a hard time selling it because he is buried in the coin. I offered him a price that was fair so he would still get a reasonable price for the coin. Just surprising why he won't realize that he is buried in the coin.

RKKay · September 8, 2005 11:45AM

<< 

<< however, he does not know that I was the one who had sold it to him, knowing how much he paid for the coin >>

You lied first, so you shouldn't be throwing stones. imo >>

Does his hiding his identity absolve the dealer from his wrong?

Russ · September 8, 2005 11:47AM

<< I offered him a price that was fair so he would still get a reasonable price for the coin. Just surprising why he won't realize that he is buried in the coin. >>

So, you buried him in the coin and now you're trying to hose him again by buying it back cheap. I get it now.

Russ, NCNE

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 11:47AM

<< 

<< however, he does not know that I was the one who had sold it to him, knowing how much he paid for the coin >>

You lied first, so you shouldn't be throwing stones. imo >>

how is his lack of knowledge considered lieing to him?

RYK · September 8, 2005 11:48AM

Dealer lieing to me!

What next? Please do not tell me there is no Santa Claus.

Tonelover · September 8, 2005 11:49AM

Kind of reminds me of a small dealer around here that I see at the Westford, MA show. He had a Nevada shaped Capitol Plastic style holder displaying all the CC Morgans and he wanted them in Good and was just missing the 85-CC. My boss had just bought one while on a fishing trip in Canada of all places and I relayed this info to the dealer who called me the next day to buy it.

About two months later he has the display in his case and I comment "nice 85-CC, those are hard to find in that grade" whereupon he says, "yeah, I got it while on a fishing trip in Canada".

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 11:49AM

i never buried him in the coin. he offered the price. he did it himself.

fivecents · September 8, 2005 11:50AM

<< Does his hiding his identity absolve the dealer from his wrong? >>

If you expect truth from someone, you damn well better be truthful yourself...it's a no brainer.

RKKay · September 8, 2005 11:50AM

<< 

<< I offered him a price that was fair so he would still get a reasonable price for the coin. Just surprising why he won't realize that he is buried in the coin. >>

So, you buried him in the coin and now you're trying to hose him again by buying it back cheap. I get it now.

Russ, NCNE >>

While I feel the dealer was wrong, I agree with Russ that it is wrong to hide the fact that you were the seller to give him a loss.

RKKay · September 8, 2005 11:52AM

<< 

<< Does his hiding his identity absolve the dealer from his wrong? >>

If you expect truth from someone, you damn well better be truthful yourself...it's a no brainer. >>

So, if I tell the truth, as most people know I do, should I expect the next guy to tell me the truth? In other words, is it a quid pro quo?

Edited to add: and I don't think that, because someone lies to me, it necessarily means I have free reign to lie. Morals are morals, irrespective of the other guy's lack thereof.

RYK · September 8, 2005 11:53AM

how is his lack of knowledge considered lieing to him?

While you did not lie to him, you did deceive him. There is enough dishonesty to go around. If I were a dealer and some random, unknown buyer made an offer on a coin that I thought was too low, I could see that in the course of negotiating it would not be unreasonable to overstate what I have in the coin. Finally, the correct spelling is "lying".

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 11:54AM

If it were any other dealer, they would have offered him even less than I had offered him. When I was selling the coin, i had most offers below bid. he offered the price that he buried himself in. how is this my fault??? i feel as if the forum members are accusing me of being a dirt bag when I have done nothing wrong in my own view.

fivecents · September 8, 2005 11:55AM

<< While I feel the dealer was wrong, I agree with Russ that it is wrong to hide the fact that you were the seller to give him a loss. >>

RKay...that was me and not Russ who said that.

RKKay · September 8, 2005 11:56AM

<< 

<< While I feel the dealer was wrong, I agree with Russ that it is wrong to hide the fact that you were the seller to give him a loss. >>

RKay...that was me and not Russ who said that. >>

Oops. Duly noted. I agree with that part of your sentiment.

Russ · September 8, 2005 11:59AM

<< i feel as if the forum members are accusing me of being a dirt bag when I have done nothing wrong in my own view. >>

I'm not accusing you of being a dirtbag, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for one dealer whining about the practices of another dealer. You're either very new or very naive.

Russ, NCNE

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 12:00PM

so should i tell him that I sold him the coin? I think that he should realize that the coin is a sunk cost to him. he dosen't necessarily have to sell it to me at the price I asked, but I think that he should be somewhat honest with the price he paid for the coin, trying to recoup his costs as much as possible.

fivecents · September 8, 2005 12:06PM

The dealer shouldn't have lied either. Did you ask him how much he paid for the coin or did he bring it up on his own?

BAJJERFAN · September 8, 2005 12:06PM

You lied first, so you shouldn't be throwing stones. imo ??

Really? How so?? PLEASE explain!!

Newmismatist · September 8, 2005 12:07PM

<< Dealer lieing to me!

What next? Please do not tell me there is no Santa Claus. >>

Robert - I've been meaning to tell you that, and also that there is no Easter Bunny!

As for the thread itself, it would not be uncommon for a dealer to factor in his show overhead costs to his acquisition price on what ever he purchased a t a show: Example Table $1000, Airfare $400, Meals $200, Cabs $75, Hotel $$350 - Show overhead $2,025 - Bought 20 coins at for $5000 - total cost for those 20 coins is $7000+ or put another way - there being no Santa Clause and no Easter Bunny to pay for those expenses, they have to be factored in some where as part of the cost of ther acquired inventory bought at show (Particularly true if not much got sold at that show). I'm somewhat amazed that collectors think that a dealer has no expenses involved in acquiring his inventory.

From the sound of the thread, it looks like the offer was less than the dealer's cost - maybe he should make it up in volumn?

RYK · September 8, 2005 12:08PM

I just don't have a lot of sympathy for one dealer whining about the practices of another dealer.

Good point. This forum is for collectors to whine about dealers, not for dealers to whine about dealers.

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 12:09PM

I never lied to the guy. I offered him a price for his coin. He then lied with the price he said he paid for the coin.

RYK · September 8, 2005 12:12PM

What next? Please do not tell me there is no Santa Claus. >>

Robert - I've been meaning to tell you that, and also that there is no Easter Bunny!

Ron, you have just about ruined my night. It's a good thing I still believe in the Coin Fairy™.

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 12:13PM

the coin fairy is fictional too. It has been many nights since i have woken up with a nice coin under my pillow.

Newmismatist · September 8, 2005 12:14PM

<< What next? Please do not tell me there is no Santa Claus. >>

Robert - I've been meaning to tell you that, and also that there is no Easter Bunny!

Ron, you have just about ruined my night. It's a good thing I still believe in the Coin Fairy™.

>>

Could you send him my way please - I'm in need of a Coin "Fix"

BAJJERFAN · September 8, 2005 12:14PM

<< While you did not lie to him, you did deceive him. >>

How is making an offer on a coin being deceitful?

7summits · September 8, 2005 12:15PM

tmot99 · September 8, 2005 12:16PM

Nick, although you didn't lie, you weren't upfront with the dealer. That really shouldn't make a difference in this whole conversation. But this is the art of negotiations. You come in low, he comes in high. Isn't your offer of x-y the same sense of a lie? You know what the market value is but you are offering something less?

Depending on the coin, 4 months might not be that long. My local dealer has had some stuff in inventory a lot longer than that. They wait for just the right person to come along and offer the right amount of money. If he has other inventory that can be turned over and keep the lights on, then he can sit on it for the right buyer. Why should he take a loss? It would be nice for you if he did, and it was a good try to get the coin back while making a few bucks, but don't come to the forum expecting a lot of excitement when that doesn't happen. I don't know too many dealers taking losses on coins.

RYK · September 8, 2005 12:16PM

By not being forthright about one's identity. Sin of omission, not comission.

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 12:16PM

<< 

<< While you did not lie to him, you did deceive him. >>

How is making an offer on a coin being deceitful? >>

thanks.

fivecents · September 8, 2005 12:19PM

<< By not being forthright about one's identity. Sin of omission, not comission. >>

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 12:20PM

<< Nick, although you didn't lie, you weren't upfront with the dealer. That really shouldn't make a difference in this whole conversation. But this is the art of negotiations. You come in low, he comes in high. Isn't your offer of x-y the same sense of a lie? You know what the market value is but you are offering something less?

Depending on the coin, 4 months might not be that long. My local dealer has had some stuff in inventory a lot longer than that. They wait for just the right person to come along and offer the right amount of money. If he has other inventory that can be turned over and keep the lights on, then he can sit on it for the right buyer. Why should he take a loss? It would be nice for you if he did, and it was a good try to get the coin back while making a few bucks, but don't come to the forum expecting a lot of excitement when that doesn't happen. I don't know too many dealers taking losses on coins. >>

i see what you are saying. however, i feel what i offered him was above fmv for the coin. in general though, should a dealer discount a coin that they know they are burried in and accept the sunk cost?

ER · September 8, 2005 12:20PM

<< maybe you will understand in mathematic terms

I sold him the coin for x amount of dollars.

I offered to buy it from him as a dealer-dealer transaction for x-y dollars, which was a fair price

He countered saying he purchased the coin for x+4y at Baltimore, which is untrue.

Understand? >>

I'm gonna ask again. Based on your original post, and the thread title, how is it that he lied to you?

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 12:22PM

boy this thread got going quickly

ER · September 8, 2005 12:23PM

<< boy this thread got going quickly >>

We all like controversy.

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 12:23PM

he lied about the price that he paid for the coin significantly. he even lied about the venue at which he bought it at (which isn't a big deal to me)

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 12:24PM

<< 

<< boy this thread got going quickly >>

We all like controversy.

>>

RYK · September 8, 2005 12:24PM

in general though, should a dealer discount a coin that they know they are burried in and accept the sunk cost?

It probably depends a lot on the coin, the clientele, the experience, and the cash/debt position of the dealer. There is probably no right/wrong answer. You don't make money by taking losses, that's for sure.

500Bay · September 8, 2005 12:25PM

Why not just out the dealer and tell us who he/she is?

If the dealer volunteered that he/she bought the coin for a number that you know is false (which is way it sounds to me), he/she showed what type of charachter he/she has.

It may happen all the time - but that does not make it right.

chabot510 · September 8, 2005 12:27PM

i know that one should not be willing to accept a loss, but this person is a national dealer and i think that they should realize that it will be almost impossible to get their asking price or even the price that they paid for it back.

it just sort of made me a little angry that a featured PCGS dealer lies about little costs, by roughly $300 on a fairly common coin.

Dealer lying to me!

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