<< <i>..you are obligated as the seller to complete the transaction with the highest bidder upon the auction's completion >>
Baseball, if the seller, through an honest mistake, no longer has the item, what are they to do under Ebay's policies? I can't imagine that Ebay would require more of them than their real-life efforts to find a replacement at considerably more $ than the item sold for. >>
Mark, at a base minimum (again JMHO) such a seller should offer to write a check for the full retail cost of a replacement, then add $100. more for the angst and effort of the buyer to find their own replacement.
I see three major problems with Superior's conduct (if, as has been said before, this is an accurate representation of all that transpired):
1) They left retaliatory feedback.
2) Since many people are saying this has happened to them in the past, they clearly have a MAJOR problem with their inventory control, and after the first 100 times the failed to deliver the purchased coin, they should have either fixed the problem or stopped listing coins on eBay until the problem was resolved. It's like the dog biting laws in many states: the first time is free (since you didn't know your dog was vicious), but after he bites someone a second time, he gets put down (since you already know he has a biting problem). Again, if you own a store and there is something dangerous (a fire hazard, or bump in the floor, or leak in the roof that gets the floor wet in places), the first time something bad happens, it's probably no big deal. Once you are aware of the problem, you better close down the store until it's fixed, because if it happens again, you're in serious trouble. I 100% guarantee that if I posted here and said "My name is David, I'm a part time eBay seller, full time student, and work part time at the gas company. I've accidentally mis-listed ten things that I don't actually own, because I have a major inventory control problem, but I'm working on it--and continuing to list auctions in the meantime"--ya'll would bite my head off. But if a major corporation KNOWS they have a problem and CONTINUES putting themselves in the same situation AGAIN AND AGAIN, of course, that's no big deal.
3) It sounds like they put a price tag on customer satisfaction, and on their integrity. Someone actually made the decisions that Superior's business reputation was worth $150, but not $350. If a politician turns down a $1000 bribe and accepts a $3000 bribe, that's villanious and scandalous and immoral. If a business makes a contract with a customer and decides that it's not worth $350 to fulfill that contract, it's A-okay.
I agree with Shamika. I'm not even involved and this made me angry.
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
<< <i>Mark, simply put, any company in any industry should make good in such a situation, IMHO. >>
Tcmitssr, I think they were trying to do that, though obviously, they could not deliver the exact coin that was listed for sale.
<< <i>Mark, at a base minimum (again JMHO) such a seller should offer to write a check for the full retail cost of a replacement, then add $100. more for the angst and effort of the buyer to find their own replacement >>
Now I am also wondering, If he won a lot and he mistakenly over bid by a large sum. Then he realizes it was a bad buy. Then the same exact situation happened. Would he except a replacement coin knowing that he made a mistake and SG can probably get it for a fraction less. Would he still go on with his purchase since it was a legal buy. Or would he forget about the whole thing and take his refund? After all it was a legitimate auction and the deal still has to go through. Also would SG forget about the whole thing as well, knowing that the coin can be found for a lot less than his winning bid?
<< Now I am also wondering, If he won a lot and he mistakenly over bid by a large sum. Then he realizes it was a bad buy. Then the same exact situation happened. Would he except a replacement coin knowing that he made a mistake and SG can probably get it for a fraction less. Would he still go on with his purchase since it was a legal buy. Or would he forget about the whole thing and take his refund? After all it was a legitimate auction and the deal still has to go through. Also would SG forget about the whole thing as well, knowing that the coin can be found for a lot less than his winning bid? >>
I'm wondering how badly a person would get hammered if they said "Yeah, I won this auction because my sniping program malfunctioned and put an extra zero in the price, so I decided not to pay." The bottom line is that when a contract is made (whether verbal, written, or internet), both parties have a responsibility to live up to the contract. Superior doesn't have the right to say "We'll comply with the contract as long as it doesn't cost us too much money."
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
A number of things seem certain from the information presented, but one of them is this: Superior Galleries would have come out ahead getting the guy his coin at whatever price they had to pay. One could expect this thread will lose them plenty of business.
I do not disagree with you. The right thing needed to be done. I am open to hear from both sides. It would be nice to get SG to respond to the forums. Maybe things can still be worked out. I do know sometimes mistakes are made. If one person made a bad call it might not mean the whole firm agrees with that decision. So, it would be nice to hear if all major decision makers at SG would of made the same call. They might hold there position and say they did the right thing. Or they might disagree and admit it was handled incorrectly. But, it would be nice to get there comments.
<< <i>Superior Galleries would have come out ahead getting the guy his coin at whatever price they had to pay. One could expect this thread will lose them plenty of business. >>
If Superior went into the open Market to try and buy a replacement coin at retail for the customer, I would think that they have made the effort to satisfy the customer - I think Beppy may have let his ire get the best of him and raised this to a much higher level of "angst" than he needed to. JMHO - It does not appear that Superior intentionally tried to "screw" him -
I would have no problem having future dealings with Superior - seems to me they acknowledged they made a mistake and made a reasonable effort to correct their mistake. Perhaps, they should have done something different, but that's a judgment call. This is trivial matter, and everyone suggesting "litigation" needs to get this is its proper prospective - I'd rather have a dealer "owe me" than "win" an issue of that is this inconsequential. - But then again, I like to buy nice coins that are hard to find and I would not want to be the LAST collector that ever gets offered the best stuff. Any one ever hear of a Phyrric Victory?
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
WOW. This is Beepys first post and what a whopper, this thing has a life of its own.
Amazing. I agree with the consensus, however, I do agree wit hthe argument that if someone were to bid aon a coin say using a sniper program,accidentally entered the wrong info. Won the auction, do you think Superior would say oh ok, no problems we have technical issues of our own we understand. NOT, they would go after that person with everything they've got. Now I could be wrong, I have not dealt with Superior, this particular problem will make me wary, but, I would not avoid them all togehter.
I would have moved on though, not worth the time money or aggravation, even if it is the principle of the matter. Ihave better things to do, like read 7+ pages of a message board thread.
Beepy - You win the first post of the year award! Most people say hello and welcome, this has obviously ruffled many feathers on both sides of the fence. Can't we all just get along?
<< <i>But then again, I like to buy nice coins that are hard to find and I would not want to be the LAST collector that ever gets offered the best stuff. Any one ever hear of a Phyrric Victory? >>
If begging and scraping and putting up with poor customer service from dealers who think they're doing you a favor by taking your money is what it takes to get nice coins, then you can have them. I'll go spend my money some other way.
So far we've had three examples of Superior making a "mistake" when it works in their interest, and not a single one in which it worked against them. That's enough for me to seriously question whether I would ever deal with them.
Coin collecting is supposed to be a hobby, not war. If I feel that way after 20-plus years of collecting, imagine how a newbie would feel after getting the shaft the first time. Then think about how much all those nice coins are going to be worth when there's no new generation of collectors to buy them.
Those that think this is something to move on from.....has it happened to you? It seems to me that it is pretty easy to sit back, not have it happen to you, and say that you would have been ok with how things appear to have transpired from SG.
I have not sat in Beepy's shoes. I am also NOT a dealer (many dealers seem to be siding with SG). I think that there appears to have been more than a few mistakes on SG's part and that, while a bit quick at the draw, the buyer is not in the wrong.
I would also bet a few of our connected board members have already contacted parties at SG and that their continued absence in answering this in the forum is a bit telling (doesn't at least 1 person from SG have a PCGS account or could send a reply to a trusted source to be posted for them?).....
Also, to those that think this doesn't hurt SG in sales.....maybe not for you but it does hurt them. Just the fact that SOME people are turned off from this and avoid them means less bids and smaller sales. SG should be smarter than what seems to have happened.
<< <i>But then again, I like to buy nice coins that are hard to find and I would not want to be the LAST collector that ever gets offered the best stuff. Any one ever hear of a Phyrric Victory? >>
If begging and scraping and putting up with poor customer service from dealers who think they're doing you a favor by taking your money is what it takes to get nice coins, then you can have them. I'll go spend my money some other way. >>
Hmm me too, but there's an old saying about catching more flies with honey than vinager - And dealing in a pleasant and professional manner is a far better way to buy coins and have dealers show you their best stuff. And besides - it's a hobby and we do it for fun. Buying nice coins doesn't entail or require "begging and scraping and putting up with poor customer service", but it does require common sense, keeping things in prospective and knowing that you don't pull out the major artillary every time someone makes a mistake. That's why they put erasers on pencils. JMHO
As far as poor customer service from Superior, it doesn't seem to be the case from what I read here - What it appears is that they made a mistake and tried to correct it - Did they do enough? I can't answer that, nor can any of us here as we have only a partial rendition of the facts (+ wondercoins indication that Superior tried to buy an equivelent coin to substitute for the one that was no longer available - That seems reasonable to me, perhaps not to others, but this is not an instance of the Dealer saying "tough cookies" or "go fly a kite").
Good Will in the coin busines is Reciprocal - While it can be argued that Superior ought to have done more, I'm not sure a customer demanding that a Coin dealer pay double retail to satisfy an immediate demand for gratification, demonstrates a reasonable response or the reciprocal goodwill that is necessary for any long term business realationship - But that's my view of what coin collecting is about and it works for me - Lets me find some very nice coins - and THAT's my long term objective. The short term goal of proving "You're right" and excoriating a dealer who's pi$$ed you off is short sighted, particularly when they try and "fix" the problem
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
<< <i>Good Will in the coin busines is Reciprocal >>
I couldn't agree more. But I suspect most of us would be more convinced that Superior was acting in goodwill if there was an indication they would behave the same way if the "mistake" was on the customer's end.
Go bid on a cheap coin in tomorrow's Teletrade auction -- something less than $50 or so. Then tell them you made a mistake and meant to bid on another coin and see what they say when you refuse to pay. If they're willing to waste time and insist on payment and threaten legal action if you don't pay up over what you and others have described as a trivial amount, then they are hypocrites and not worthy of dealing with IMHO.
By having the SAME coin available for sale in different venues at the same time, software or no software, Superior is NOT being smart. I realize that others do this as well, but it is just opening the door wide open for errors like this. If you are going to sell it on ebay, remove it from other venues when the first bid is placed (unless a reserve, then remove once the reserve is met).
I don't bid on auctions that state "may be unavailable due to prior sale"....that is just setting things up for problems.
Too bad in the haste to turn inventory over more quickly, the problems crop up and don't appear to be remedied (from the other posts I have seen)once seen.
The short term goal of proving "You're right" and excoriating a dealer who's pi$$ed you off is short sighted, particularly when they try and "fix" the problem
I think people should listen to Newmismatist more........ He makes a lot of sense......
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
Breach of contract is a huge issue! Selling coins represents a contractual obligation between buyer and seller. An "excuse me, we are all human and we make mistakes, here's your money back" doesn't cut it with contractual obligations!
IF you enter into a binding obligation to deliver a purchased coin at an agreed upon price, it is the legal responsibility to deliver that coin as agreed! End of conversation!
If this is how Superior Galleries handles disputes, they should be tied and run up the flagpole, or better yet encouraged to open their main office in Anartica! They're sure to get a lot of business there!
Since that is my MS66 Low Leaf Wisconsin error you just won on ebay,... I pick your side .
Sorry about that previous problem.....something worse happened to me. I paid about that same price for a trade dollar (unaware til it arrived and I inspected and weighed it) and even the f.b.i. said they couldn't help me . Oh well, I guess the long arm of the law is cut short when it comes to this crazy little thing called EBAY. I never got my money back and I sure cannot try to pass a fake along to another. So I am stuck with it still .... wanna buy it ? (that was an attempt at humor)... I wouldn't even feel right grinding it up and trying to recycle the metal.
I don't purchase too many things from Hong Kong now...., unless it says MADE IN CHINA and I get it at WalMart. I can relate to the frustration, but as many said before me ..... let it go. Superior is good and will make it right for you. (and if they do not, well... I keep reminding myself, there are TWO SIDES 2 A COIN)
To all those in this thread that defended the auction company, or pointed out how this was an 'honest mistake' and how they 'tried' to remedy the situation:
Perhaps one day you will bid in one of their sales and win that one very special coin you've been looking for, or that pop. 3 coin for your registry set, or that killer toned Morgan you've been dying to get............... and after the auction ends and you've won the lot and sent in payment, they will tell you the coin is not available and here's your money back.
We'll see then if you're as understanding and forgiving and say "oh well, it WAS an honest mistake"
Superior's at fault, yes. But as an experienced eBay seller with 2900+ FBs (not in coins), I would consider you a problem buyer, with somewhat unrealistic expectations of service (or at least much higher than the average). IMO, had you acted reasonably in the beginning, and acknowledged that honest mistakes happen, nobody would be talking about negs or lawsuits. Now I don't support lying or deceit in business but again, it should not have gotten this far. Three points come to mind. . .
1. Sellers make honest mistakes - multiple and accidental listings are easy to do for high volume sellers. Done it myself and experienced complete understanding from buyers.
2. With the seller immediately sending a refund with an explanation, this whole thing should have been satisfactory. Send apology, explanation and full refund. Human. Over.
3. Apparently, you forced upon them terms and condition that they, for whatever reason, would not agree to. I think this approach immediately put them on the defensive.
Additionally, as with others on this board, I thought that including 'attorney at law' in your sig was a bit over-the-top, as was statements like this, ". . .notwithstanding the delay and imposition I have suffered in my dealings with Superior Galleries thus far". Do these tactics expedite or impede the situation?
Dragon, I think those people were simply stating that honest business operators are human and will always make honest mistakes, not matter how carefully they run their business. I understand disappointment, but some situations cannot be reconciled to both parties satisfactions and expectations.
Let's say I sold a rare cigar box from 1955 6 months ago on eBay. The auction was created in my eBay listing tool software. Today, I generated a 50 listings for some rare auto literature and uploaded them to eBay. Throughout the 1 to 2 hours it took for me to do this, somewhere along the way I accidently loaded the cigar box auction into my uploading queue. It uploaded as well and I didn't catch it. I checked my listings later that day and discovered that I had just sold a cigar box that I actually just sold 6 months ago. The auction had a buy it now. Now, I have to email the buyer with this explanation, refund their money (covering any incidental fees such as money order fees) and hope that the buyer is a reasonable individual that understands that mistakes happen. In my experience they all have been.
What outcome should be expected from this situation? I don't see another alternative, short of having an exact copy on hand, in the exact same condition. Should the buyer expect me to search eBay and other marketplaces for an equal or better example, regardless of cost and time?
Well this has to be a first, a thread in which I agree with both Russ and wondercoin. It is a miracle.
Let me remind the folks here that there are memebers here who sell coins on Ebay and at the same time haul them off to shows to sell and do end up selling them at a show and canceling their ebay listing regardless of whether there are bids or not.
I don't so business with Superior for my own reasons, but this is the proverbial mountain out of a molehill. As one of the old coots here, anytime I get any sort of correspondence with attorney at law attached or threatened to be sued I get a smile on my face and think to myself bring it on.
<< <i>somewhere along the way I accidently loaded the cigar box auction into my uploading queue. It uploaded as well and I didn't catch it. I checked my listings later that day and discovered that I had just sold a cigar box that I actually just sold 6 months ago. The >>
That's normal human error, no sweat. Pay the buyer a few dollars extra for the inconvenience and move on. Consider, this:
From the posts made here, it's obvious that due to inventory control issues, Superior *frequently* sells items on eBay that it doesn't have. They KNOW that they have an inventory control problem, but instead of suspending their eBay operations until the software is fixed, they continue to use the flawed software to do business on eBay. That is WRONG.
Consider these situations:
1) You go to the bank to withdraw money from your account and the teller says "I'm sorry sir, today we ran out of money because our computer system hasn't been computing the proper reserve amounts to have on hand. If you'll come back tomorrow we'll have your money. Yeah, our computer has done this several times before, but we're working on it."
2) Your electricity gets disconnected and you call the electric company to see why. They inform you that they are having problems with their computers and they have been accidentally disconnecting people's electricity in error. They get it turned back on for you, and next month the same thing happens.
3) You order 100 tons of plaster for your business and the supplier says they are sorry, but a computer error caused them not to have the correct amount of plaster on hand. They've been experiencing these errors for awhile, hopefully the computers will be fixed soon. He assures you the Vice President is working on the problem to the best of his ability.
4) Your electric bill is automatically drafted from your account. Their computers accidentally draft $1000 instead of $100, causing several checks you wrote to bounce (most banks clear the highest amount first). They apologize when you call in; this is the third time their computer has drafted incorrect amounts from customers' accounts and they are working on it. It's an honest mistake, they pay the NSF fees, all is well. Then it happens again next month. Should they not suspend bank draft until the problem is resolved???
In ANY of these three situations, that business would be sued so fast it'd make your head spin. But since coin collecting is a hobby, apparently that exempts large businesses within our field from the standards of common sense that the rest of the world employs. If you know you have a problem, suspend related business activities until the problem is fixed!!!!
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
This is a great thread; because it shows the different between Dealers and Collectors and the whole coin market with respect to selling coins. A majority of Dealers on this thread seem to believe Superior Galleries did all it can do, it “was a mistake” “SG return the funds” and accept the best line a “software problem” etc and that should be the end of it.
But collectors see; a coin being sold on E-Bay. The coin won. The money sent & received. And no coin being delivered at E-Bay’s contracted winning bid. And then being told well here’s your money back; or you can accept this lesser coin. NO! then go away because we are a big player in the coin market. And guess what were going to neg you on E-Bay. ( I do believe when you are selling items on E-Bay, E-Bay requires that you do have the item for sell; E-Bay even mentions this on the last page prior to posting your item for sell.
With regards to Superior Galleries how do we know this was and “honest mistake” or just standard operating procedure? Coin didn’t sell at SG invoice price for that coin so coin is not delivered?
In the end “Beepy” you are correct and should receive the coin you won at bid and at the same cost, grade it was auction at. Collectors should expect nothing less from Dealers.
In ANY of these three situations, that business would be sued so fast it'd make your head spin.
In your examples, there are real damages. In the Beepy situation, there are no real damages--other than that he did not get a rip on the coin he was seeking. Now, if his blood pressure was elevated so high while writing those scathing letters to Superior that he had an intraprenchymal hemorrhage (bleeding in the brain caused by high blood pressure), then you have damages!
This is a great thread; because it shows the different between Dealers and Collectors and the whole coin market with respect to selling coins.
I disagree. I am a collector, and while I agree that Superior was wrong, I learned in pre-school that "two "wrongs" don't make a "right" ".
I have a hunch that if the selling price was at or over retail that SG would not have had any "computer probllems".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>With regards to Superior Galleries how do we know this was and “honest mistake” or just standard operating procedure? Coin didn’t sell at SG invoice price for that coin so coin is not delivered? >>
Here is some very good evidence to show it was an honest mistake - they apparently sold (AND DELIVERED) THE coin in question to someone else for only $52.50: see this thread
<< <i>To all those in this thread that defended the auction company, or pointed out how this was an 'honest mistake' and how they 'tried' to remedy the situation:
Perhaps one day you will bid in one of their sales and win that one very special coin you've been looking for, or that pop. 3 coin for your registry set, or that killer toned Morgan you've been dying to get............... and after the auction ends and you've won the lot and sent in payment, they will tell you the coin is not available and here's your money back.
We'll see then if you're as understanding and forgiving and say "oh well, it WAS an honest mistake" >>
Dragon, see my earlier post in this thread on that very subject - it happened to me with another auction company. To make matters worse, I had the added problem of a disappointed client for whom I had bid. But, I knew it was an honest mistake and that the auction company did what they could about it. Accordingly, I did NOT give them a hard time.
Edited to add:
<< <i>I have a hunch that if the selling price was at or over retail that SG would not have had any "computer probllems". >>
Perryhall, please read this if you haven't already done so:
<< <i>With regards to Superior Galleries how do we know this was and “honest mistake” or just standard operating procedure? Coin didn’t sell at SG invoice price for that coin so coin is not delivered? >>
Here is some very good evidence to show it was an honest mistake - they apparently sold (AND DELIVERED) THE coin in question to someone else for only $52.50: see this thread
PS. This is not about right or wrong to me, this was a mistake. No one was "harmed" and as a laywer I would like to think that you know that.
Of course I may be writing to the wrong crowd because heaven knows that very few members on this board have ever made an "honest" mistake before.
I am one of the old-timers and I can tell you the way people think today that they are "entitiled" to something because someone else made a mistake is disgusting.
<< <i>The record longest first post, a lawyer, eBay, a major auction company, emails signed "Attorney at Law". Yep, this guy definitely has what it takes to keep a post at the top for a long time. This will make 250 easy. >>
200, top of the page and still going strong. I may have underestimated the value of the "major auction company" to the equation.
Awhile ago, I was watching and participating in an E-Bay Superior auction and Franklin Halves were currently up for bid. A stunning 1960-D PCGS MS65FBL was up for bid and the price had gone to $500.; half of the martket value at the time. This coin would be a "rip" at that price so I decided to 'pull the trigger" at the next highest bid. Unfortunately, my bid did not register until $1,100.; a computer glitch. I won the auction and immediately contacted Superior letting them know I was in no postion to complete the transaction and informing them of the malfunctioning mouse clicking. They were most professional and courteous by not holding my feet to the fire and making me fufill my contractual obligation to buy the coin at martket value. Just my 2 cents.
Sometimes mistakes happen and 'feet should not be held to the fire". It's only coin collecting; not a matter of life and death or National Security.
Claus, are you actually expecting us to believe that those big, bad, plotting, rip-off artists let a buyer out of HIS "contractual obligation" when HE made an honest mistake?
They didn't make you pay? They didn't sue you? I'm not believing you.
To anyone who doesn't understand where the current "Superior" fits into the coin market (and where their principals have staked claims) for the past 20 years (as TIA, TAGZ, etc.), is clearly the newbie. I stand by my statement.
That's nice. I wasn't talking about the past 20 years, or the Superior model. Try reading my original post again.
<< <i>In your examples, there are real damages. In the Beepy situation, there are no real damages--other than that he did not get a rip on the coin he was seeking. >>
He didn't get the coin that he wanted. Whether he wanted it because it's a rip or he wanted it because he needs it for a set, we'll never know.
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
E-Bay has no policy regarding these situations other than the above text link. But E-Bay does state "When a seller lists an item on eBay, and a buyer bids for and wins that item, the seller and buyer have entered into a contract. Both members are expected to honor that contract. In accordance with that contract, the seller may not:"
<< <i>Sometimes mistakes happen and 'feet should not be held to the fire". >>
HOW MANY TIMES MUST SUPERIOR MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE BEFORE SOMEONE HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE?
We have read many times in this thread where a similar situation happened--coin was bought on eBay and Superior said "Sorry, we don't have it anymore."
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
Well guys, Beepy has succeeded. He has accomplished his goal. He knew Superior was wrong but he also knew that he would never take his time to actually sue them [over a 153 bucks]----even though he was a lawyer. He also knew that, if he posted his story, most collectors would race to his defense. The result would be that Superior would receive thousands of dollars worth of "bad" publicity. Notice how he has let the story run without further comment. The thread feeds upon itself. So, I repeat my earlier comments that he "thinks" exactly like he has been trained to think. His mind set requires him to "WIN" at all costs. This fellow has no desire to acquire the "art" of compromise. He wanted his pound of flesh from Superior and is smiling all the way to the bank. Bob [supertooth]
<< <i>Well guys, Beepy has succeeded. He has accomplished his goal. He knew Superior was wrong but he also knew that he would never take his time to actually sue them [over a 153 bucks]----even though he was a lawyer. He also knew that, if he posted his story, most collectors would race to his defense. The result would be that Superior would receive thousands of dollars worth of "bad" publicity. Notice how he has let the story run without further comment. The thread feeds upon itself. So, I repeat my earlier comments that he "thinks" exactly like he has been trained to think. His mind set requires him to "WIN" at all costs. This fellow has no desire to acquire the "art" of compromise. He wanted his pound of flesh from Superior and is smiling all the way to the bank. Bob [supertooth] >>
Another way to look at it is that the OP has already maligned Superior enough that they no longer have much of an incentive to go the extra mile to make it right for him. Many businesses will work with you to make something right *because* they don't want dirty laundry aired in public or shared with others, but the cat's already out of the bag now and the worst case has pretty much already happened from SG's point of view.
Beepy has burned the bridge, and im my opinion he burned it prematurely.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>..you are obligated as the seller to complete the transaction with the highest bidder upon the auction's completion >>
Baseball, if the seller, through an honest mistake, no longer has the item, what are they to do under Ebay's policies? I can't imagine that Ebay would require more of them than their real-life efforts to find a replacement at considerably more $ than the item sold for. >>
Mark, at a base minimum (again JMHO) such a seller should offer to write a check for the full retail cost of a replacement, then add $100. more for the angst and effort of the buyer to find their own replacement.
1) They left retaliatory feedback.
2) Since many people are saying this has happened to them in the past, they clearly have a MAJOR problem with their inventory control, and after the first 100 times the failed to deliver the purchased coin, they should have either fixed the problem or stopped listing coins on eBay until the problem was resolved. It's like the dog biting laws in many states: the first time is free (since you didn't know your dog was vicious), but after he bites someone a second time, he gets put down (since you already know he has a biting problem). Again, if you own a store and there is something dangerous (a fire hazard, or bump in the floor, or leak in the roof that gets the floor wet in places), the first time something bad happens, it's probably no big deal. Once you are aware of the problem, you better close down the store until it's fixed, because if it happens again, you're in serious trouble. I 100% guarantee that if I posted here and said "My name is David, I'm a part time eBay seller, full time student, and work part time at the gas company. I've accidentally mis-listed ten things that I don't actually own, because I have a major inventory control problem, but I'm working on it--and continuing to list auctions in the meantime"--ya'll would bite my head off. But if a major corporation KNOWS they have a problem and CONTINUES putting themselves in the same situation AGAIN AND AGAIN, of course, that's no big deal.
3) It sounds like they put a price tag on customer satisfaction, and on their integrity. Someone actually made the decisions that Superior's business reputation was worth $150, but not $350. If a politician turns down a $1000 bribe and accepts a $3000 bribe, that's villanious and scandalous and immoral. If a business makes a contract with a customer and decides that it's not worth $350 to fulfill that contract, it's A-okay.
I agree with Shamika. I'm not even involved and this made me angry.
<< <i>Mark, simply put, any company in any industry should make good in such a situation, IMHO. >>
Tcmitssr, I think they were trying to do that, though obviously, they could not deliver the exact coin that was listed for sale.
<< <i>Mark, at a base minimum (again JMHO) such a seller should offer to write a check for the full retail cost of a replacement, then add $100. more for the angst and effort of the buyer to find their own replacement >>
I'm perfectly fine with that as a remedy.
Now I am also wondering, If he won a lot and he mistakenly over bid by a large sum. Then he realizes it was a bad buy. Then the same exact situation happened. Would he except a replacement coin knowing that he made a mistake and SG can probably get it for a fraction less. Would he still go on with his purchase since it was a legal buy. Or would he forget about the whole thing and take his refund? After all it was a legitimate auction and the deal still has to go through. Also would SG forget about the whole thing as well, knowing that the coin can be found for a lot less than his winning bid?
>>
I'm wondering how badly a person would get hammered if they said "Yeah, I won this auction because my sniping program malfunctioned and put an extra zero in the price, so I decided not to pay." The bottom line is that when a contract is made (whether verbal, written, or internet), both parties have a responsibility to live up to the contract. Superior doesn't have the right to say "We'll comply with the contract as long as it doesn't cost us too much money."
<< <i>Superior Galleries would have come out ahead getting the guy his coin at whatever price they had to pay. One could expect this thread will lose them plenty of business. >>
If Superior went into the open Market to try and buy a replacement coin at retail for the customer, I would think that they have made the effort to satisfy the customer - I think Beppy may have let his ire get the best of him and raised this to a much higher level of "angst" than he needed to. JMHO - It does not appear that Superior intentionally tried to "screw" him -
I would have no problem having future dealings with Superior - seems to me they acknowledged they made a mistake and made a reasonable effort to correct their mistake. Perhaps, they should have done something different, but that's a judgment call. This is trivial matter, and everyone suggesting "litigation" needs to get this is its proper prospective - I'd rather have a dealer "owe me" than "win" an issue of that is this inconsequential. - But then again, I like to buy nice coins that are hard to find and I would not want to be the LAST collector that ever gets offered the best stuff. Any one ever hear of a Phyrric Victory?
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Amazing. I agree with the consensus, however, I do agree wit hthe argument that if someone were to bid aon a coin say using a sniper program,accidentally entered the wrong info. Won the auction, do you think Superior would say oh ok, no problems we have technical issues of our own we understand. NOT, they would go after that person with everything they've got. Now I could be wrong, I have not dealt with Superior, this particular problem will make me wary, but, I would not avoid them all togehter.
I would have moved on though, not worth the time money or aggravation, even if it is the principle of the matter. Ihave better things to do, like read 7+ pages of a message board thread.
Beepy - You win the first post of the year award! Most people say hello and welcome, this has obviously ruffled many feathers on both sides of the fence. Can't we all just get along?
<< <i>But then again, I like to buy nice coins that are hard to find and I would not want to be the LAST collector that ever gets offered the best stuff. Any one ever hear of a Phyrric Victory? >>
If begging and scraping and putting up with poor customer service from dealers who think they're doing you a favor by taking your money is what it takes to get nice coins, then you can have them. I'll go spend my money some other way.
So far we've had three examples of Superior making a "mistake" when it works in their interest, and not a single one in which it worked against them. That's enough for me to seriously question whether I would ever deal with them.
Coin collecting is supposed to be a hobby, not war. If I feel that way after 20-plus years of collecting, imagine how a newbie would feel after getting the shaft the first time. Then think about how much all those nice coins are going to be worth when there's no new generation of collectors to buy them.
It seems to me that it is pretty easy to sit back, not have it happen to you, and say that you would have been ok with how things appear to have transpired from SG.
I have not sat in Beepy's shoes. I am also NOT a dealer (many dealers seem to be siding with SG). I think that there appears to have been more than a few mistakes on SG's part and that, while a bit quick at the draw, the buyer is not in the wrong.
I would also bet a few of our connected board members have already contacted parties at SG and that their continued absence in answering this in the forum is a bit telling (doesn't at least 1 person from SG have a PCGS account or could send a reply to a trusted source to be posted for them?).....
Also, to those that think this doesn't hurt SG in sales.....maybe not for you but it does hurt them. Just the fact that SOME people are turned off from this and avoid them means less bids and smaller sales. SG should be smarter than what seems to have happened.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>But then again, I like to buy nice coins that are hard to find and I would not want to be the LAST collector that ever gets offered the best stuff. Any one ever hear of a Phyrric Victory? >>
If begging and scraping and putting up with poor customer service from dealers who think they're doing you a favor by taking your money is what it takes to get nice coins, then you can have them. I'll go spend my money some other way. >>
Hmm me too, but there's an old saying about catching more flies with honey than vinager - And dealing in a pleasant and professional manner is a far better way to buy coins and have dealers show you their best stuff. And besides - it's a hobby and we do it for fun. Buying nice coins doesn't entail or require "begging and scraping and putting up with poor customer service", but it does require common sense, keeping things in prospective and knowing that you don't pull out the major artillary every time someone makes a mistake. That's why they put erasers on pencils. JMHO
As far as poor customer service from Superior, it doesn't seem to be the case from what I read here - What it appears is that they made a mistake and tried to correct it - Did they do enough? I can't answer that, nor can any of us here as we have only a partial rendition of the facts (+ wondercoins indication that Superior tried to buy an equivelent coin to substitute for the one that was no longer available - That seems reasonable to me, perhaps not to others, but this is not an instance of the Dealer saying "tough cookies" or "go fly a kite").
Good Will in the coin busines is Reciprocal - While it can be argued that Superior ought to have done more, I'm not sure a customer demanding that a Coin dealer pay double retail to satisfy an immediate demand for gratification, demonstrates a reasonable response or the reciprocal goodwill that is necessary for any long term business realationship - But that's my view of what coin collecting is about and it works for me - Lets me find some very nice coins - and THAT's my long term objective. The short term goal of proving "You're right" and excoriating a dealer who's pi$$ed you off is short sighted, particularly when they try and "fix" the problem
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>Good Will in the coin busines is Reciprocal >>
I couldn't agree more. But I suspect most of us would be more convinced that Superior was acting in goodwill if there was an indication they would behave the same way if the "mistake" was on the customer's end.
Go bid on a cheap coin in tomorrow's Teletrade auction -- something less than $50 or so. Then tell them you made a mistake and meant to bid on another coin and see what they say when you refuse to pay. If they're willing to waste time and insist on payment and threaten legal action if you don't pay up over what you and others have described as a trivial amount, then they are hypocrites and not worthy of dealing with IMHO.
Maybe you'll be hearing from Mr. Dance.
Jim
I realize that others do this as well, but it is just opening the door wide open for errors like this.
If you are going to sell it on ebay, remove it from other venues when the first bid is placed (unless a reserve, then remove once the reserve is met).
I don't bid on auctions that state "may be unavailable due to prior sale"....that is just setting things up for problems.
Too bad in the haste to turn inventory over more quickly, the problems crop up and don't appear to be remedied (from the other posts I have seen)once seen.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I think people should listen to Newmismatist more........ He makes a lot of sense......
Brett, BRAVO!! BRAVO!!
Breach of contract is a huge issue! Selling coins represents a contractual obligation between buyer and seller. An "excuse me, we are all human and we make mistakes, here's your money back" doesn't cut it with contractual obligations!
IF you enter into a binding obligation to deliver a purchased coin at an agreed upon price, it is the legal responsibility to deliver that coin as agreed! End of conversation!
If this is how Superior Galleries handles disputes, they should be tied and run up the flagpole, or better yet encouraged to open their main office in Anartica! They're sure to get a lot of business there!
Since that is my MS66 Low Leaf Wisconsin error you just won on ebay,... I pick your side
Sorry about that previous problem.....something worse happened to me. I paid about that same price for a trade dollar (unaware til it arrived and I inspected and weighed it) and even the f.b.i. said they couldn't help me . Oh well, I guess the long arm of the law is cut short when it comes to this crazy little thing called EBAY. I never got my money back and I sure cannot try to pass a fake along to another. So I am stuck with it still .... wanna buy it ? (that was an attempt at humor)... I wouldn't even feel right grinding it up and trying to recycle the metal.
I don't purchase too many things from Hong Kong now...., unless it says MADE IN CHINA and I get it at WalMart.
I can relate to the frustration, but as many said before me ..... let it go. Superior is good and will make it right for you.
(and if they do not, well... I keep reminding myself, there are TWO SIDES 2 A COIN)
Joe
Perhaps one day you will bid in one of their sales and win that one very special coin you've been looking for, or that pop. 3 coin for your registry set, or that killer toned Morgan you've been dying to get............... and after the auction ends and you've won the lot and sent in payment, they will tell you the coin is not available and here's your money back.
We'll see then if you're as understanding and forgiving and say "oh well, it WAS an honest mistake"
Superior's at fault, yes. But as an experienced eBay seller with 2900+ FBs (not in coins), I would consider you a problem buyer, with somewhat unrealistic expectations of service (or at least much higher than the average). IMO, had you acted reasonably in the beginning, and acknowledged that honest mistakes happen, nobody would be talking about negs or lawsuits. Now I don't support lying or deceit in business but again, it should not have gotten this far. Three points come to mind. . .
1. Sellers make honest mistakes - multiple and accidental listings are easy to do for high volume sellers. Done it myself and experienced complete understanding from buyers.
2. With the seller immediately sending a refund with an explanation, this whole thing should have been satisfactory. Send apology, explanation and full refund. Human. Over.
3. Apparently, you forced upon them terms and condition that they, for whatever reason, would not agree to. I think this approach immediately put them on the defensive.
Additionally, as with others on this board, I thought that including 'attorney at law' in your sig was a bit over-the-top, as was statements like this, ". . .notwithstanding the delay and imposition I have suffered in my dealings with Superior Galleries thus far". Do these tactics expedite or impede the situation?
185 posts - what a waste of 30 minutes reading...........................
I'm backing the little guy on this one !!!
<< <i>185 posts - what a waste of 30 minutes reading...........................
I'm backing the little guy on this one !!! >>
So, you're backing Superior?
Let's say I sold a rare cigar box from 1955 6 months ago on eBay. The auction was created in my eBay listing tool software. Today, I generated a 50 listings for some rare auto literature and uploaded them to eBay. Throughout the 1 to 2 hours it took for me to do this, somewhere along the way I accidently loaded the cigar box auction into my uploading queue. It uploaded as well and I didn't catch it. I checked my listings later that day and discovered that I had just sold a cigar box that I actually just sold 6 months ago. The auction had a buy it now. Now, I have to email the buyer with this explanation, refund their money (covering any incidental fees such as money order fees) and hope that the buyer is a reasonable individual that understands that mistakes happen. In my experience they all have been.
What outcome should be expected from this situation? I don't see another alternative, short of having an exact copy on hand, in the exact same condition. Should the buyer expect me to search eBay and other marketplaces for an equal or better example, regardless of cost and time?
Let me remind the folks here that there are memebers here who sell coins on Ebay and at the same time haul them off to shows to sell and do end up selling them at a show and canceling their ebay listing regardless of whether there are bids or not.
I don't so business with Superior for my own reasons, but this is the proverbial mountain out of a molehill. As one of the old coots here, anytime I get any sort of correspondence with attorney at law attached or threatened to be sued I get a smile on my face and think to myself bring it on.
<< <i>somewhere along the way I accidently loaded the cigar box auction into my uploading queue. It uploaded as well and I didn't catch it. I checked my listings later that day and discovered that I had just sold a cigar box that I actually just sold 6 months ago. The >>
That's normal human error, no sweat. Pay the buyer a few dollars extra for the inconvenience and move on. Consider, this:
From the posts made here, it's obvious that due to inventory control issues, Superior *frequently* sells items on eBay that it doesn't have. They KNOW that they have an inventory control problem, but instead of suspending their eBay operations until the software is fixed, they continue to use the flawed software to do business on eBay. That is WRONG.
Consider these situations:
1) You go to the bank to withdraw money from your account and the teller says "I'm sorry sir, today we ran out of money because our computer system hasn't been computing the proper reserve amounts to have on hand. If you'll come back tomorrow we'll have your money. Yeah, our computer has done this several times before, but we're working on it."
2) Your electricity gets disconnected and you call the electric company to see why. They inform you that they are having problems with their computers and they have been accidentally disconnecting people's electricity in error. They get it turned back on for you, and next month the same thing happens.
3) You order 100 tons of plaster for your business and the supplier says they are sorry, but a computer error caused them not to have the correct amount of plaster on hand. They've been experiencing these errors for awhile, hopefully the computers will be fixed soon. He assures you the Vice President is working on the problem to the best of his ability.
4) Your electric bill is automatically drafted from your account. Their computers accidentally draft $1000 instead of $100, causing several checks you wrote to bounce (most banks clear the highest amount first). They apologize when you call in; this is the third time their computer has drafted incorrect amounts from customers' accounts and they are working on it. It's an honest mistake, they pay the NSF fees, all is well. Then it happens again next month. Should they not suspend bank draft until the problem is resolved???
In ANY of these three situations, that business would be sued so fast it'd make your head spin. But since coin collecting is a hobby, apparently that exempts large businesses within our field from the standards of common sense that the rest of the world employs. If you know you have a problem, suspend related business activities until the problem is fixed!!!!
But collectors see; a coin being sold on E-Bay. The coin won. The money sent & received. And no coin being delivered at E-Bay’s contracted winning bid. And then being told well here’s your money back; or you can accept this lesser coin. NO! then go away because we are a big player in the coin market. And guess what were going to neg you on E-Bay. ( I do believe when you are selling items on E-Bay, E-Bay requires that you do have the item for sell; E-Bay even mentions this on the last page prior to posting your item for sell.
With regards to Superior Galleries how do we know this was and “honest mistake” or just standard operating procedure? Coin didn’t sell at SG invoice price for that coin so coin is not delivered?
In the end “Beepy” you are correct and should receive the coin you won at bid and at the same cost, grade it was auction at. Collectors should expect nothing less from Dealers.
In your examples, there are real damages. In the Beepy situation, there are no real damages--other than that he did not get a rip on the coin he was seeking. Now, if his blood pressure was elevated so high while writing those scathing letters to Superior that he had an intraprenchymal hemorrhage (bleeding in the brain caused by high blood pressure), then you have damages!
This is a great thread; because it shows the different between Dealers and Collectors and the whole coin market with respect to selling coins.
I disagree. I am a collector, and while I agree that Superior was wrong, I learned in pre-school that "two "wrongs" don't make a "right" ".
You do not get back all the time that was spent playing the "victim" though I do understand that some people are not happy unless they are miserable.
Joe.
RYK,
That's the problem; I can't find were "Beepy" went wrong.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>With regards to Superior Galleries how do we know this was and “honest mistake” or just standard operating procedure? Coin didn’t sell at SG invoice price for that coin so coin is not delivered? >>
Here is some very good evidence to show it was an honest mistake - they apparently sold (AND DELIVERED) THE coin in question to someone else for only $52.50: see this thread
<< <i>To all those in this thread that defended the auction company, or pointed out how this was an 'honest mistake' and how they 'tried' to remedy the situation:
Perhaps one day you will bid in one of their sales and win that one very special coin you've been looking for, or that pop. 3 coin for your registry set, or that killer toned Morgan you've been dying to get............... and after the auction ends and you've won the lot and sent in payment, they will tell you the coin is not available and here's your money back.
We'll see then if you're as understanding and forgiving and say "oh well, it WAS an honest mistake" >>
Dragon, see my earlier post in this thread on that very subject - it happened to me with another auction company. To make matters worse, I had the added problem of a disappointed client for whom I had bid. But, I knew it was an honest mistake and that the auction company did what they could about it. Accordingly, I did NOT give them a hard time.
Edited to add:
<< <i>I have a hunch that if the selling price was at or over retail that SG would not have had any "computer probllems". >>
Perryhall, please read this if you haven't already done so:
<< <i>With regards to Superior Galleries how do we know this was and “honest mistake” or just standard operating procedure? Coin didn’t sell at SG invoice price for that coin so coin is not delivered? >>
Here is some very good evidence to show it was an honest mistake - they apparently sold (AND DELIVERED) THE coin in question to someone else for only $52.50: see this thread
Of course I may be writing to the wrong crowd because heaven knows that very few members on this board have ever made an "honest" mistake before.
I am one of the old-timers and I can tell you the way people think today that they are "entitiled" to something because someone else made a mistake is disgusting.
Joe.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The record longest first post, a lawyer, eBay, a major auction company, emails signed "Attorney at Law". Yep, this guy definitely has what it takes to keep a post at the top for a long time. This will make 250 easy.
200, top of the page and still going strong. I may have underestimated the value of the "major auction company" to the equation.
Awhile ago, I was watching and participating in an E-Bay Superior auction and Franklin Halves were currently up for bid. A stunning 1960-D PCGS MS65FBL was up for bid and the price had gone to $500.; half of the martket value at the time. This coin would be a "rip" at that price so I decided to 'pull the trigger" at the next highest bid. Unfortunately, my bid did not register until $1,100.; a computer glitch. I won the auction and immediately contacted Superior letting them know I was in no postion to complete the transaction and informing them of the malfunctioning mouse clicking. They were most professional and courteous by not holding my feet to the fire and making me fufill my contractual obligation to buy the coin at martket value. Just my 2 cents.
Sometimes mistakes happen and 'feet should not be held to the fire". It's only coin collecting; not a matter of life and death or National Security.
They didn't make you pay? They didn't sue you? I'm not believing you.
That's nice. I wasn't talking about the past 20 years, or the Superior model. Try reading my original post again.
Free Trial
<< <i>In your examples, there are real damages. In the Beepy situation, there are no real damages--other than that he did not get a rip on the coin he was seeking. >>
He didn't get the coin that he wanted. Whether he wanted it because it's a rip or he wanted it because he needs it for a set, we'll never know.
E-Bay has no policy regarding these situations other than the above text link. But E-Bay does state "When a seller lists an item on eBay, and a buyer bids for and wins that item, the seller and buyer have entered into a contract. Both members are expected to honor that contract. In accordance with that contract, the seller may not:"
<< <i>Sometimes mistakes happen and 'feet should not be held to the fire". >>
HOW MANY TIMES MUST SUPERIOR MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE BEFORE SOMEONE HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE?
We have read many times in this thread where a similar situation happened--coin was bought on eBay and Superior said "Sorry, we don't have it anymore."
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>Well guys, Beepy has succeeded. He has accomplished his goal. He knew Superior was wrong but he also knew that he would never take his time to actually sue them [over a 153 bucks]----even though he was a lawyer. He also knew that, if he posted his story, most collectors would race to his defense. The result would be that Superior would receive thousands of dollars worth of "bad" publicity. Notice how he has let the story run without further comment. The thread feeds upon itself. So, I repeat my earlier comments that he "thinks" exactly like he has been trained to think. His mind set requires him to "WIN" at all costs. This fellow has no desire to acquire the "art" of compromise. He wanted his pound of flesh from Superior and is smiling all the way to the bank. Bob [supertooth] >>
Another way to look at it is that the OP has already maligned Superior enough that they no longer have much of an incentive to go the extra mile to make it right for him. Many businesses will work with you to make something right *because* they don't want dirty laundry aired in public or shared with others, but the cat's already out of the bag now and the worst case has pretty much already happened from SG's point of view.
Beepy has burned the bridge, and im my opinion he burned it prematurely.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com