Buyer beware when dealing w/ Superior Galleries!
Beepy
Posts: 20
Someone tell me who's right on this one!
On July 27, I won an eBay auction in which Superior Galleries of Beverly Hills was listing a 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative silver dollar in PCGS MS70. I like nickels and am a fan of Thomas Jefferson, so I thought I did pretty good on this one. My winning bid was $153.29, which is on the rock bottom end of the FMV spread for this coin.
As you will have gathered from the title of this thread, the transaction didn't go as I had expected. Rather than paraphrase anything, I've cut and pasted below several emails between Superior Galleries and myself, reversing them so they can be read more easily from top to bottom in chronological order (as opposed to the usual bottom-to-top format). Note that the emails presented below are only a portion of the total exchanged between Superior Galleries and myself; listing them all would be way too time-consuming for the reader. The ones listed below accurately reflect the gist of the exchanges, however.
I'd really like this forum's input on this issue, and its members' thoughts on the following questions:
1) Is it O.K for an auction seller, who mistakenly auctions a coin it doesn't even have, to simply walk away from the contract even when the putative buyer takes it upon himself to locate an identical, replacement coin that the seller can purchase in order to honor its contract?
2) Is it O.K. for the seller to lie to the buyer about any aspect of the transaction, under any circumstances?
3) Is it O.K. for the seller to post retaliatory negative feedback about the buyer claiming "Irresponsible use of feedback system" (thus blowing the buyer's 100% positive rating), simply because the buyer posted negative feedback about the seller to warn other potential buyers that the seller breached its contract and lied to the buyer about the transaction in question?
4) What constitutes a "responsible" use of a feedback system in the case of a breached contract?
YOU DECIDE! LET'S HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY!
_____
From: "Susan Fama (x228)" <susanf@sgbh.com>
To: <beepy390@hotmail.com>
Subject: Superior Galleries
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:39:19 -0700
Dear Mr. Petranech,
Thank you for your bid and payment for the 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70 coin ($153.29).
Unfortunately, this coin was listed in error. I apologize for any disappointment or inconvenience. We use a listing program to help us
with our many auctions, and it appears the program was not updated to reflect that the coin was NOT in inventory. This was our mistake, and I'm very sorry. I am taking measures to prevent this from happening again.
I can offer the 1993-P Jefferson Commem. in MS69 which is far less expensive than the coin you chose. I can also continue to look for the
MS70 and alert you when it is available. In the interim, I have refunded your full payment which should post within 48 hours.
Please let me know if there is another coin I can locate for you. I would really like to make amends so that you feel this was a positive
transaction.
Sincerely,
Susan Fama
Customer Service
Superior Galleries, Inc.
9478 W. Olympic Blvd.
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
E-Mail: susanf@sgbh.com
Web: www.sgbh.com
Tel: 310-203-9855 Ext. 228
Fax: 310-203-0496
______
-----Original Message-----
From: beepy390 Beepy390 [mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:39 PM
To: Susan Fama (x228)
Subject: RE: Superior Galleries
Ms. Fama:
I am absolutely stunned by your email.
In response to Superior Galleries' electronically published eBay offer to award the coin pictured in the offer to the highest bidder at auction, I
bid on the coin and won. This sequence of events created a binding contract between Superior Galleries and me. I then honored the terms of that contract by immediately tendering payment of the full purchase price ($153.29) plus shipping and handling ($7.50) as specified in the offer. I also complied with Superior Galleries' instruction to not tender payment via eBay, but instead to do so using Superior Galleries' own checkout procedure. Having tendered payment, I received an electronic receipt from Superior Galleries confirming acceptance of my payment, and another email from Liberty Mutual (buySAFE) indicating that the transaction was bonded. However, I then received no further communication from Superior Galleries or any notification of shipment for more than a week. I therefore called Superior Galleries to check on the status of my order today.
The first Superior Galleries representative with whom I spoke took my name, entered it into a computer, and stated that I had not paid for the coin. When I informed her that I had a printed receipt from Superior Galleries confirming payment in full, I was placed on hold and transferred to a second Superior Galleries representative. This second representative (whom may have been you, though I am not sure) informed me that my payment had been received, apologized for the delay in shipment, and attributed the delay to the fact that the coin had been in transit from San Francisco. Upon speaking with a third person in the background, this second Superior Galleries representative told me that the coin had been shipped to my address today. When I asked what method of shipment was used, this second Superior Galleries representative told me that the coin had shipped via USPS first class mail. I expressed my displeasure upon receiving this information, as I had submitted instructions with my payment which specifically stated that the coin should NOT be shipped so as to arrive
at my address on a weekend. (This "special instructions" feature was available on Superior Galleries' website, and my instructions were memorialized on the electronic receipt I received from Superior Galleries.) I emphasize to you that I ended my phone call to Superior Galleries having been specifically told that the coin had already been shipped to me today.
Now you indicate in your email to me that not only was the coin NOT shipped today, as unambiguously stated by the second Superior Galleries representative with whom I spoke, but in fact no coin was available for sale at all, even at the time of auction. In short, I am now notified that the auction was a sham. Moreover, you inform me that Superior Galleries' intended approaches to this fiasco are to either offer me a significantly less valuable coin or, in the alternative, to refund my money and keep on the lookout for a coin that matches the item I won at auction.
Please be advised that I do not wish to accept a lesser coin, and I do not want my money refunded. I want what I won and paid for, and I will consider anything less to be a breach of my contract with Superior Galleries. There is a coin identical to the item I won at auction for sale on eBay as I write this. I suggest that Superior Galleries purchase that coin, notify me and provide to me proof of its purchase, and ship that coin to me in accordance with my previously presented shipping instructions. Should Superior Galleries honor its deal with me in this fashion, I will consider this matter closed and will even go so far as to post favorable feedback on eBay, notwithstanding the delay and imposition I have suffered in my dealings with Superior Galleries thus far. Or, if you or any other Superior Galleries representative can devise another potential solution, I am willing to consider any other reasonable offer. However, I will not accept Superior Galleries simply washing its hands of its contract with me, with little more than an "oops, sorry" on its behalf, given the shell game played with me on
the phone today. Lying to a customer in order to get him off the phone is completely unacceptable under any circumstances. From my perspective, Superior Galleries has some cleaning up to do, and honoring its deal, even at this late date, is a necessary first step.
The courtesy of a reply is requested.
Brett C. Petranech, Attorney at Law
Madison, WI
_____
-----Original Message-----
From: beepy390 Beepy390 [mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com
<mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com> ]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 3:15 PM
To: Louis Palafoutas (x251)
Cc: Susan Fama (x228)
Subject: 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70
Mr. Palafoutas:
My name is Brett Petranech. I have been dealing with Susan Fama to date, but hereafter wish to deal with you. I ask that you please speak
with Ms. Fama about the situation that has developed concerning my contract with Superior Galleries (in relation to the above-referenced coin), and about Superior Galleries' failure to honor that contract in a timely and forthright manner. It might behoove you to ascertain which Superior Galleries representative lied to me when telling me that the coin I won at auction had already been shipped to my address, when in fact not only had no coin been shipped, but no coin was available for auction in the first place. You need not share the results of your investigation with me, but if I were in your position, I would be extremely concerned that one of the employees under my supervision had deliberately and blatantly lied to a customer.
More immediately, I asked Ms. Fama to describe to me what steps Superior Galleries intended to take to rectify its breach of contract with me but received no substantive reply. This is surprising, given that immediately upon receiving Ms. Fama's initial email notifying me that my
money had been refunded, and that the coin I won at auction had not been shipped and was not even in inventory, I searched the interent and apprised Ms. Fama of the existence of an identical, PCGS-certified replacement coin then available at auction on eBay. Superior Galleries
made no bid whatsoever on that coin. Taken together with the fact that, after that auction ended, Ms. Fama then inquired whether I might accept an NGC-certified coin in lieu of the item I had contracted to receive from Superior Galleries, I can only conclude that Superior Galleries has no real intention of procuring a PCGS-certified replacement coin for the one it has failed to produce. Telling me that "it's clear" that it will take awhile to find a replacement coin, when I already found one available, is akin to telling me that my situation is not a very high priority for Superior Galleries.
Be advised that I intend to work my way up Superior Galleries' chain of command until I reach someone who recognizes that customer satisfaction is ALWAYS first priority.
Why did Superior Galleries not bid on the replacement coin I located for it? Is Superior Galleries more concerned with its profit margin than with its reputation? Why else would it have foregone the opportunity to procure the replacement coin, except that it did not want to spend too much money attempting to honor its contract with me? Please answer these questions in writing for me. I am very interested in your
responses.
Please also notify me, in detail, what steps Superior Galleries intends to take to remedy its breach of contract with me. I received no
substantive reply from Ms. Fama to this question, so I request a reply from you.
Thank you in advance for your prompt attention to this matter.
Brett C. Petranech, Attorney at Law
Madison, WI
_____
From: "Louis Palafoutas (x251)" <louisp@sgbh.com>
To: "beepy390 Beepy390" <beepy390@hotmail.com>
CC: "Susan Fama (x228)" <susanf@sgbh.com>
Subject: RE: 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:10:20 -0700
Hello Mr. Petranech,
First of all I want to apologize about how your efforts to purchase this coin from Superior has gone so far. There has been a series of events
unique to this situation that have developed along the way. First we have been implementing new sophisticated software that ties into our
inventory data to offer our products on our website and other auction sites like eBay, Overstock and Amazon. The more sophisticated and exotic side of these tools is the ability to automatically list our product on third party sites and most importantly when a unique item sells the
tools recognize the quantity is now zero and stop offering that item. To make the situation more complicated we have a busy retail location and sales people offering our coins. So in effect many times we have a unique item being offered in multiple locations and when the sells we
need to stop offering that item elsewhere immediately. I am happy to report that as we have been working with our developers perfecting these tools we are 99.9% perfect but also we have had a few errors. One is this coin, we sold it when in fact our available quantity was 0, for this I am extremely sorry and on behalf of Superior Galleries I apologize.
Susan Fama is an excellent employee who has always used great judgment in working with our customers. I have seen her developed a great working relationship with every customer she helps. Your situation seems to be the exception to the rule, Susan does not lie. You made her aware of another similar coin and she made an effort to purchase it for you. I told her stop after the price exceeded $300, double the price you paid. You are correct customer service is more important than profit margins but you have to admit there has to be a limit to that rule. I set that limit on this coin at double the selling price. I am confident this displays a sincere effort to deliver this coin.
We will continue to offer the highest level of customer service possible and for Internet customers we will continue to confidently offer this
through Susan Fama. I have watched her work hard to try and satisfy this situation and stress about not finding an acceptable solution for you. I hope you will let us continue looking for this coin for you and please know I will do anything I can to satisfy you on this or any future
transaction. Please don't hesitate to contact me.
Sincerely,
Louis Palafoutas
Director of Internet Operations
Superior Galleries, Inc.
9478 W. Olympic Blvd.
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
E-Mail: louisp@sgbh.com
Web: www.sgbh.com
Tel: 310-203-9855 Ext. 251
Cell: 310-404-3430
Fax: 310-203-0496
_____
-----Original Message-----
From: beepy390 Beepy390 [mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:18 PM
To: Louis Palafoutas (x251)
Cc: Susan Fama (x228)
Subject: RE: 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70
Mr. Palafoutas:
Please provide me with the name, telephone number, and email address of your manager or superior at Superior Galleries. Please also provide me with the name, mailing address, business telephone number, and business email address of the president or highest ranking officer of Superior Galleries.
As concerns your email to me, thank you for your prompt reply. You should be aware, given your position at Superior Galleries, that the law
does not recognize a "too expensive to honor" exception to one's contractual obligations. Hence, your decision to not attempt to fulfill
Superior Galleries' contract with me unless doing so will cost Superior Galleries no more than twice my purchase price for the coin in questoin
is nothing but an open acknowledgment that Superior Galleries has breached its contract with me and does not intend to remedy its breach
except on terms that it deems financially favorable to it. Thank you for clarifying Superior Galleries' position on this point.
My suggested solution to this situation is as follows:
1) Superior Galleries and I both continue to search for a 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70 coin available for sale.
2) If Superior Galleries finds such a coin first, it buys that coin regardless of price and fulfills its contract to me. Given your statements to me below, I doubt that Superior Galleries will actually undertake this effort, as you have made it crystal clear that Superior Galleries only honors contracts when it is financially beneficial to Superior Galleries to do so. Nonetheless, if I receive notice from Superior Galleries that it has purchased the coin owed to me under contract before I locate and purchase a replacement coin, and if Superior Galleries thereafter ships the coin to me in accordance with my previously specified instructions, I will consider the contract between Superior Galleries and me fulfilled and I will agree to post no feedback on eBay regarding this transaction.
3) If I find such a coin first, I will buy it. I will then sue Superior Galleries for the difference between what I paid for the replacement coin and what I agreed to pay Superior Galleries for the coin I won at auction, plus any additional costs and/or expenses I incur as a result of Superior Galleries' breach of contract. Regardless of outcome of the lawsuit (though I have no doubt whatsoever how my claim will fare), I also will post truthful, explicit, negative feedback regarding this transaction on eBay. Such feedback will include the fact that the auction was a sham, that I was deliberately lied to about the transaction by a Superior Galleries representative, and that Superior Galleries refused to honor its contract with me because Superior Galleries felt it was better to screw me over than spend the money necessary to fulfill the contract. Given that lawsuits are public records, I also will post a detailed account of the progress of my lawsuit on any and all coin forum message boards I can find. All accounts I post will be truthful, and thus not very supportive of Superior Galleries' business practices. I leave it to you to determine how these activities will affect Superior Galleries' business reputation.
I have been exceedingly fair and patient, Mr. Palafoutas, but upon reading your email to me my patience ran out. This email provides Superior Galleries one last chance to make matters right with me. I ask again: What does Superior Galleries intend to do to remedy its breach of contract with me in a prompt manner? Perhaps a discussion with Superior Galleries' legal counsel might be in order before you reply.
The courtesy of a reply is requested. From you. Based on your email, I see now that Ms. Fama was acting under your supervision. However, if it was her that I spoke with on the phone when I called to check on the status of my purchase, then she was the Superior Galleries representative who lied to me. If she told you she did not, then she lied to you too.
Brett C. Petranech, Attorney at Law
Madison, WI
_____
From: "Louis Palafoutas (x251)" <louisp@sgbh.com>
To: "beepy390 Beepy390" <beepy390@hotmail.com>
CC: "Susan Fama (x228)" <susanf@sgbh.com>,"Paul Song (x224)" <paulsong@sgbh.com>
Subject: RE: 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:26:43 -0700
Paul Inho Song
Vice President of Auctions
paulsong@sgbh.com
Same address and phone number
Sincerely,
Louis Palafoutas
Director of Internet Operations
Superior Galleries, Inc.
_____
From: "Susan Fama (x228)" <susanf@sgbh.com>
To: "beepy390 Beepy390" <beepy390@hotmail.com>
Subject: Superior Galleries
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:09:35 -0700
Dear Mr. Petranech,
Just a quick note to tell you that I continue to look for a replacement coin. I'm sorry, but this process takes time.
Your order is being treated with urgency, concern and respect. I want to assure you that every avenue is being explored and I'll keep you
updated.
In the future, I'd would appreciate it if you would discontinue referring to me as a liar. It is upsetting, unkind, and simply not true.
Susan Fama
Customer Service
Superior Galleries, Inc.
_____
-----Original Message-----
From: beepy390 Beepy390 [mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:04 PM
To: Susan Fama (x228)
Cc: Paul Song (x224); Louis Palafoutas (x251)
Subject: RE: Superior Galleries
Ms. Fama:
A replacement coin remains available for purchase from the eBay seller known as "acar*." This seller informed me yesterday that the reserve price for the coin is $500. Subtracting my purchase price of $153.29 from that amount means that Superior Galleries can fulfill its contract with me for $346.71, not including S/H/I. We have now established the price of Superior Galleries' reputation in this matter.
As for your feelings, imagine the OUTRAGE I felt upon learning that I had been duped by the second Superior Galleries representative with whom I spoke on August 5, 2005. You'll recall that I sent you an email on that date describing my conversations with various Superior Galleries representatives as follows:
". . . The first Superior Galleries representative with whom I spoke took my name, entered it into a computer, and stated that I had not paid
for the coin. When I informed her that I had a printed receipt from Superior Galleries confirming payment in full, I was placed on hold and
transferred to a second Superior Galleries representative. This second representative (whom may have been you, though I am not sure) informed me that my payment had been received, apologized for the delay in shipment, and attributed the delay to the fact that the coin had been in transit from San Francisco. Upon speaking with a third person in the background, this second Superior Galleries representative told me that the coin had been shipped to my address today. When I asked what method of shipment was used, this second Superior Galleries representative told me that the coin had shipped via USPS first class mail. I expressed my displeasure upon receiving this information, as I had submitted instructions with my payment which specifically stated that the coin should NOT be shipped so as to arrive at my address on a weekend. (This "special instructions" feature was available on Superior Galleries' website, and my instructions were memorialized on the electronic receipt I received from Superior Galleries.) I emphasize to you that I ended my phone call to Superior Galleries having been specifically told that the coin had already been shipped to me today. . . ."
To date, I still do not know the identity of the second Superior Galleries representative with whom I spoke on August 5. I therefore
have been careful not to directly attribute her statements to you, and a review of my prior emails will reveal this care. However, you have not stated that you were NOT the second representative with whom I spoke on that date, nor has Mr. Palafoutas; in fact, the tacit consensus seems to be that it was you who spoke with me on that date.
If you were that person, then do you deny telling me that the reason the coin had not shipped immediately after auction was because it was in transit from San Francisco? Do you deny telling me, after speaking with an unidentified third person (a male) in the background, that the coin had been shipped (past tense) to my address on that day? Do you deny that I asked, TWICE, what method of shipment had been used (past tense), and you replied, TWICE, that it was (past tense) first class mail? Do you deny that I expressed displeasure at the fact that my shipping instructions had been ignored, that you stated you were sorry about that, and that I replied, "So am I"? If you were the second representative with whom I spoke and you deny these exchanges, then what DO you contend was stated between us on that date? I'd be interested to hear what the unnamed third person present in the background on that date recalls about our conversation as well.
The truth may be unsettling, and it may even be unkind, but by definition it cannot be "not true." What incentive would I have to make up a story about my conversation with that second Superior Galleries representative, when such a story has no bearing on Superior Galleries'
breach of contract? The answer is "none." What was said to me by that second representative, however, goes a long way toward explaining my extreme anger over the manner in which Superior Galleries has handled this matter from the beginning.
Mr. Song has not replied to my email to him, and Mr. Palafoutas implies that this matter will continue to be addressed through you. I therefore inform you that, unless I receive notice no later than noon (CST) on Monday, August 22, 2005 that Superior Galleries has procured a replacement for the coin I am due under contract, either from "acar*" or from some other source, I will buy the coin offered by "acar*" and I will sue Superior Galleries for the difference between my purchase price and my winning auction bid, plus all costs and expenses I incur as a result of Superior Galleries' breach of contract.
I don't know what more needs to be said.
Brett C. Petranech, Attorney at Law
Madison, WI
_____
From: "Louis Palafoutas (x251)" <louisp@sgbh.com>
To: "beepy390 Beepy390" <beepy390@hotmail.com>,"Susan Fama (x228)" <susanf@sgbh.com>
CC: "Paul Song (x224)" <paulsong@sgbh.com>
Subject: RE: Superior Galleries
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:21:45 -0700
Hello Brett,
That coin is not an option. We will continue or efforts to fulfill this order. Thank you for the information. Feel free to contact me anytime.
Sincerely,
Louis Palafoutas
Director of Internet Operations
Superior Galleries, Inc.
_____
-----Original Message-----
From: beepy390 Beepy390 [mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:31 PM
To: Louis Palafoutas (x251)
Cc: Paul Song (x224); Susan Fama (x228)
Subject: RE: Superior Galleries
Mr. Palafoutas:
Thank you for your prompt reply. Regardless of which "option" Superior Galleries decides to avail itself, it has until noon CST on Monday to
deliver notice of procurement. Failing that, suit will be filed on Tuesday, August 23.
Brett C. Petranech, Attorney at Law
Madison, WI
_____ END OF EMAILS _____ END OF EMAILS _____ END OF EMAILS _____
Now for the kicker!
- Having received no further communication from Superior Galleries regarding their efforts to find another coin, I posted eBay feedback concerning the transaction on August 22 as follows:
"Ripoff! No coin! SG lied about it to me, won't provide replacement coin I found."
- That same day, Superior Galleries posted a reply as follows:
"Coin listed in error customer fully refunded, no ripoff, no lies"
- The next day, August 23, Superior Galleries posted the following feedback about me in relation to the transaction:
"Irresponsible use of feedback system, customer received a complete refund"
Not including the above, from April 2004 to present, I have received 43 positive feedbacks and zero negative feedbacks on eBay, all relating to purchases. The vast majority of my purchases are coins. Superior Galleries' negative feedback on me dropped my feedback score from 100% to 96.8%.
While I admit to being forceful in my communications with Superior Galleries, I also have been truthful and accurate from day one. While I am willing to accept mistake and inadvertance as excuses for failing to honor a deal, those excuses go out the window when accompanied by lies in any form. When I called to check on the status of my transaction, I was told TWICE that my order had gone out that day. Of course, it had not. When I located a replacement coin, I was told "too expensive," in so many words. When I posted truthful feedback, I was retaliated against.
I open the floor. Who is right on this one?
Brett ("Beepy") Petranech
Edited to add:
Upon reviewing all of Superior Galleries' eBay feedback, I found that it has a practice of posting negative feedback for those who post either negative OR EVEN NEUTRAL feedback about Superior Galleries, EVEN WHEN THE REASON FOR THE NEGATIVE OR NEUTRAL FEEDBACK WAS CAUSED BY SUPERIOR GALLERIES' AUCTIONING COINS NOT IN INVENTORY. Truth cannot be allowed to stand alone, I guess.
On July 27, I won an eBay auction in which Superior Galleries of Beverly Hills was listing a 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative silver dollar in PCGS MS70. I like nickels and am a fan of Thomas Jefferson, so I thought I did pretty good on this one. My winning bid was $153.29, which is on the rock bottom end of the FMV spread for this coin.
As you will have gathered from the title of this thread, the transaction didn't go as I had expected. Rather than paraphrase anything, I've cut and pasted below several emails between Superior Galleries and myself, reversing them so they can be read more easily from top to bottom in chronological order (as opposed to the usual bottom-to-top format). Note that the emails presented below are only a portion of the total exchanged between Superior Galleries and myself; listing them all would be way too time-consuming for the reader. The ones listed below accurately reflect the gist of the exchanges, however.
I'd really like this forum's input on this issue, and its members' thoughts on the following questions:
1) Is it O.K for an auction seller, who mistakenly auctions a coin it doesn't even have, to simply walk away from the contract even when the putative buyer takes it upon himself to locate an identical, replacement coin that the seller can purchase in order to honor its contract?
2) Is it O.K. for the seller to lie to the buyer about any aspect of the transaction, under any circumstances?
3) Is it O.K. for the seller to post retaliatory negative feedback about the buyer claiming "Irresponsible use of feedback system" (thus blowing the buyer's 100% positive rating), simply because the buyer posted negative feedback about the seller to warn other potential buyers that the seller breached its contract and lied to the buyer about the transaction in question?
4) What constitutes a "responsible" use of a feedback system in the case of a breached contract?
YOU DECIDE! LET'S HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY!
_____
From: "Susan Fama (x228)" <susanf@sgbh.com>
To: <beepy390@hotmail.com>
Subject: Superior Galleries
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:39:19 -0700
Dear Mr. Petranech,
Thank you for your bid and payment for the 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70 coin ($153.29).
Unfortunately, this coin was listed in error. I apologize for any disappointment or inconvenience. We use a listing program to help us
with our many auctions, and it appears the program was not updated to reflect that the coin was NOT in inventory. This was our mistake, and I'm very sorry. I am taking measures to prevent this from happening again.
I can offer the 1993-P Jefferson Commem. in MS69 which is far less expensive than the coin you chose. I can also continue to look for the
MS70 and alert you when it is available. In the interim, I have refunded your full payment which should post within 48 hours.
Please let me know if there is another coin I can locate for you. I would really like to make amends so that you feel this was a positive
transaction.
Sincerely,
Susan Fama
Customer Service
Superior Galleries, Inc.
9478 W. Olympic Blvd.
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
E-Mail: susanf@sgbh.com
Web: www.sgbh.com
Tel: 310-203-9855 Ext. 228
Fax: 310-203-0496
______
-----Original Message-----
From: beepy390 Beepy390 [mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:39 PM
To: Susan Fama (x228)
Subject: RE: Superior Galleries
Ms. Fama:
I am absolutely stunned by your email.
In response to Superior Galleries' electronically published eBay offer to award the coin pictured in the offer to the highest bidder at auction, I
bid on the coin and won. This sequence of events created a binding contract between Superior Galleries and me. I then honored the terms of that contract by immediately tendering payment of the full purchase price ($153.29) plus shipping and handling ($7.50) as specified in the offer. I also complied with Superior Galleries' instruction to not tender payment via eBay, but instead to do so using Superior Galleries' own checkout procedure. Having tendered payment, I received an electronic receipt from Superior Galleries confirming acceptance of my payment, and another email from Liberty Mutual (buySAFE) indicating that the transaction was bonded. However, I then received no further communication from Superior Galleries or any notification of shipment for more than a week. I therefore called Superior Galleries to check on the status of my order today.
The first Superior Galleries representative with whom I spoke took my name, entered it into a computer, and stated that I had not paid for the coin. When I informed her that I had a printed receipt from Superior Galleries confirming payment in full, I was placed on hold and transferred to a second Superior Galleries representative. This second representative (whom may have been you, though I am not sure) informed me that my payment had been received, apologized for the delay in shipment, and attributed the delay to the fact that the coin had been in transit from San Francisco. Upon speaking with a third person in the background, this second Superior Galleries representative told me that the coin had been shipped to my address today. When I asked what method of shipment was used, this second Superior Galleries representative told me that the coin had shipped via USPS first class mail. I expressed my displeasure upon receiving this information, as I had submitted instructions with my payment which specifically stated that the coin should NOT be shipped so as to arrive
at my address on a weekend. (This "special instructions" feature was available on Superior Galleries' website, and my instructions were memorialized on the electronic receipt I received from Superior Galleries.) I emphasize to you that I ended my phone call to Superior Galleries having been specifically told that the coin had already been shipped to me today.
Now you indicate in your email to me that not only was the coin NOT shipped today, as unambiguously stated by the second Superior Galleries representative with whom I spoke, but in fact no coin was available for sale at all, even at the time of auction. In short, I am now notified that the auction was a sham. Moreover, you inform me that Superior Galleries' intended approaches to this fiasco are to either offer me a significantly less valuable coin or, in the alternative, to refund my money and keep on the lookout for a coin that matches the item I won at auction.
Please be advised that I do not wish to accept a lesser coin, and I do not want my money refunded. I want what I won and paid for, and I will consider anything less to be a breach of my contract with Superior Galleries. There is a coin identical to the item I won at auction for sale on eBay as I write this. I suggest that Superior Galleries purchase that coin, notify me and provide to me proof of its purchase, and ship that coin to me in accordance with my previously presented shipping instructions. Should Superior Galleries honor its deal with me in this fashion, I will consider this matter closed and will even go so far as to post favorable feedback on eBay, notwithstanding the delay and imposition I have suffered in my dealings with Superior Galleries thus far. Or, if you or any other Superior Galleries representative can devise another potential solution, I am willing to consider any other reasonable offer. However, I will not accept Superior Galleries simply washing its hands of its contract with me, with little more than an "oops, sorry" on its behalf, given the shell game played with me on
the phone today. Lying to a customer in order to get him off the phone is completely unacceptable under any circumstances. From my perspective, Superior Galleries has some cleaning up to do, and honoring its deal, even at this late date, is a necessary first step.
The courtesy of a reply is requested.
Brett C. Petranech, Attorney at Law
Madison, WI
_____
-----Original Message-----
From: beepy390 Beepy390 [mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com
<mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com> ]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 3:15 PM
To: Louis Palafoutas (x251)
Cc: Susan Fama (x228)
Subject: 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70
Mr. Palafoutas:
My name is Brett Petranech. I have been dealing with Susan Fama to date, but hereafter wish to deal with you. I ask that you please speak
with Ms. Fama about the situation that has developed concerning my contract with Superior Galleries (in relation to the above-referenced coin), and about Superior Galleries' failure to honor that contract in a timely and forthright manner. It might behoove you to ascertain which Superior Galleries representative lied to me when telling me that the coin I won at auction had already been shipped to my address, when in fact not only had no coin been shipped, but no coin was available for auction in the first place. You need not share the results of your investigation with me, but if I were in your position, I would be extremely concerned that one of the employees under my supervision had deliberately and blatantly lied to a customer.
More immediately, I asked Ms. Fama to describe to me what steps Superior Galleries intended to take to rectify its breach of contract with me but received no substantive reply. This is surprising, given that immediately upon receiving Ms. Fama's initial email notifying me that my
money had been refunded, and that the coin I won at auction had not been shipped and was not even in inventory, I searched the interent and apprised Ms. Fama of the existence of an identical, PCGS-certified replacement coin then available at auction on eBay. Superior Galleries
made no bid whatsoever on that coin. Taken together with the fact that, after that auction ended, Ms. Fama then inquired whether I might accept an NGC-certified coin in lieu of the item I had contracted to receive from Superior Galleries, I can only conclude that Superior Galleries has no real intention of procuring a PCGS-certified replacement coin for the one it has failed to produce. Telling me that "it's clear" that it will take awhile to find a replacement coin, when I already found one available, is akin to telling me that my situation is not a very high priority for Superior Galleries.
Be advised that I intend to work my way up Superior Galleries' chain of command until I reach someone who recognizes that customer satisfaction is ALWAYS first priority.
Why did Superior Galleries not bid on the replacement coin I located for it? Is Superior Galleries more concerned with its profit margin than with its reputation? Why else would it have foregone the opportunity to procure the replacement coin, except that it did not want to spend too much money attempting to honor its contract with me? Please answer these questions in writing for me. I am very interested in your
responses.
Please also notify me, in detail, what steps Superior Galleries intends to take to remedy its breach of contract with me. I received no
substantive reply from Ms. Fama to this question, so I request a reply from you.
Thank you in advance for your prompt attention to this matter.
Brett C. Petranech, Attorney at Law
Madison, WI
_____
From: "Louis Palafoutas (x251)" <louisp@sgbh.com>
To: "beepy390 Beepy390" <beepy390@hotmail.com>
CC: "Susan Fama (x228)" <susanf@sgbh.com>
Subject: RE: 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:10:20 -0700
Hello Mr. Petranech,
First of all I want to apologize about how your efforts to purchase this coin from Superior has gone so far. There has been a series of events
unique to this situation that have developed along the way. First we have been implementing new sophisticated software that ties into our
inventory data to offer our products on our website and other auction sites like eBay, Overstock and Amazon. The more sophisticated and exotic side of these tools is the ability to automatically list our product on third party sites and most importantly when a unique item sells the
tools recognize the quantity is now zero and stop offering that item. To make the situation more complicated we have a busy retail location and sales people offering our coins. So in effect many times we have a unique item being offered in multiple locations and when the sells we
need to stop offering that item elsewhere immediately. I am happy to report that as we have been working with our developers perfecting these tools we are 99.9% perfect but also we have had a few errors. One is this coin, we sold it when in fact our available quantity was 0, for this I am extremely sorry and on behalf of Superior Galleries I apologize.
Susan Fama is an excellent employee who has always used great judgment in working with our customers. I have seen her developed a great working relationship with every customer she helps. Your situation seems to be the exception to the rule, Susan does not lie. You made her aware of another similar coin and she made an effort to purchase it for you. I told her stop after the price exceeded $300, double the price you paid. You are correct customer service is more important than profit margins but you have to admit there has to be a limit to that rule. I set that limit on this coin at double the selling price. I am confident this displays a sincere effort to deliver this coin.
We will continue to offer the highest level of customer service possible and for Internet customers we will continue to confidently offer this
through Susan Fama. I have watched her work hard to try and satisfy this situation and stress about not finding an acceptable solution for you. I hope you will let us continue looking for this coin for you and please know I will do anything I can to satisfy you on this or any future
transaction. Please don't hesitate to contact me.
Sincerely,
Louis Palafoutas
Director of Internet Operations
Superior Galleries, Inc.
9478 W. Olympic Blvd.
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
E-Mail: louisp@sgbh.com
Web: www.sgbh.com
Tel: 310-203-9855 Ext. 251
Cell: 310-404-3430
Fax: 310-203-0496
_____
-----Original Message-----
From: beepy390 Beepy390 [mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:18 PM
To: Louis Palafoutas (x251)
Cc: Susan Fama (x228)
Subject: RE: 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70
Mr. Palafoutas:
Please provide me with the name, telephone number, and email address of your manager or superior at Superior Galleries. Please also provide me with the name, mailing address, business telephone number, and business email address of the president or highest ranking officer of Superior Galleries.
As concerns your email to me, thank you for your prompt reply. You should be aware, given your position at Superior Galleries, that the law
does not recognize a "too expensive to honor" exception to one's contractual obligations. Hence, your decision to not attempt to fulfill
Superior Galleries' contract with me unless doing so will cost Superior Galleries no more than twice my purchase price for the coin in questoin
is nothing but an open acknowledgment that Superior Galleries has breached its contract with me and does not intend to remedy its breach
except on terms that it deems financially favorable to it. Thank you for clarifying Superior Galleries' position on this point.
My suggested solution to this situation is as follows:
1) Superior Galleries and I both continue to search for a 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70 coin available for sale.
2) If Superior Galleries finds such a coin first, it buys that coin regardless of price and fulfills its contract to me. Given your statements to me below, I doubt that Superior Galleries will actually undertake this effort, as you have made it crystal clear that Superior Galleries only honors contracts when it is financially beneficial to Superior Galleries to do so. Nonetheless, if I receive notice from Superior Galleries that it has purchased the coin owed to me under contract before I locate and purchase a replacement coin, and if Superior Galleries thereafter ships the coin to me in accordance with my previously specified instructions, I will consider the contract between Superior Galleries and me fulfilled and I will agree to post no feedback on eBay regarding this transaction.
3) If I find such a coin first, I will buy it. I will then sue Superior Galleries for the difference between what I paid for the replacement coin and what I agreed to pay Superior Galleries for the coin I won at auction, plus any additional costs and/or expenses I incur as a result of Superior Galleries' breach of contract. Regardless of outcome of the lawsuit (though I have no doubt whatsoever how my claim will fare), I also will post truthful, explicit, negative feedback regarding this transaction on eBay. Such feedback will include the fact that the auction was a sham, that I was deliberately lied to about the transaction by a Superior Galleries representative, and that Superior Galleries refused to honor its contract with me because Superior Galleries felt it was better to screw me over than spend the money necessary to fulfill the contract. Given that lawsuits are public records, I also will post a detailed account of the progress of my lawsuit on any and all coin forum message boards I can find. All accounts I post will be truthful, and thus not very supportive of Superior Galleries' business practices. I leave it to you to determine how these activities will affect Superior Galleries' business reputation.
I have been exceedingly fair and patient, Mr. Palafoutas, but upon reading your email to me my patience ran out. This email provides Superior Galleries one last chance to make matters right with me. I ask again: What does Superior Galleries intend to do to remedy its breach of contract with me in a prompt manner? Perhaps a discussion with Superior Galleries' legal counsel might be in order before you reply.
The courtesy of a reply is requested. From you. Based on your email, I see now that Ms. Fama was acting under your supervision. However, if it was her that I spoke with on the phone when I called to check on the status of my purchase, then she was the Superior Galleries representative who lied to me. If she told you she did not, then she lied to you too.
Brett C. Petranech, Attorney at Law
Madison, WI
_____
From: "Louis Palafoutas (x251)" <louisp@sgbh.com>
To: "beepy390 Beepy390" <beepy390@hotmail.com>
CC: "Susan Fama (x228)" <susanf@sgbh.com>,"Paul Song (x224)" <paulsong@sgbh.com>
Subject: RE: 1993-P Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS70
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:26:43 -0700
Paul Inho Song
Vice President of Auctions
paulsong@sgbh.com
Same address and phone number
Sincerely,
Louis Palafoutas
Director of Internet Operations
Superior Galleries, Inc.
_____
From: "Susan Fama (x228)" <susanf@sgbh.com>
To: "beepy390 Beepy390" <beepy390@hotmail.com>
Subject: Superior Galleries
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:09:35 -0700
Dear Mr. Petranech,
Just a quick note to tell you that I continue to look for a replacement coin. I'm sorry, but this process takes time.
Your order is being treated with urgency, concern and respect. I want to assure you that every avenue is being explored and I'll keep you
updated.
In the future, I'd would appreciate it if you would discontinue referring to me as a liar. It is upsetting, unkind, and simply not true.
Susan Fama
Customer Service
Superior Galleries, Inc.
_____
-----Original Message-----
From: beepy390 Beepy390 [mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:04 PM
To: Susan Fama (x228)
Cc: Paul Song (x224); Louis Palafoutas (x251)
Subject: RE: Superior Galleries
Ms. Fama:
A replacement coin remains available for purchase from the eBay seller known as "acar*." This seller informed me yesterday that the reserve price for the coin is $500. Subtracting my purchase price of $153.29 from that amount means that Superior Galleries can fulfill its contract with me for $346.71, not including S/H/I. We have now established the price of Superior Galleries' reputation in this matter.
As for your feelings, imagine the OUTRAGE I felt upon learning that I had been duped by the second Superior Galleries representative with whom I spoke on August 5, 2005. You'll recall that I sent you an email on that date describing my conversations with various Superior Galleries representatives as follows:
". . . The first Superior Galleries representative with whom I spoke took my name, entered it into a computer, and stated that I had not paid
for the coin. When I informed her that I had a printed receipt from Superior Galleries confirming payment in full, I was placed on hold and
transferred to a second Superior Galleries representative. This second representative (whom may have been you, though I am not sure) informed me that my payment had been received, apologized for the delay in shipment, and attributed the delay to the fact that the coin had been in transit from San Francisco. Upon speaking with a third person in the background, this second Superior Galleries representative told me that the coin had been shipped to my address today. When I asked what method of shipment was used, this second Superior Galleries representative told me that the coin had shipped via USPS first class mail. I expressed my displeasure upon receiving this information, as I had submitted instructions with my payment which specifically stated that the coin should NOT be shipped so as to arrive at my address on a weekend. (This "special instructions" feature was available on Superior Galleries' website, and my instructions were memorialized on the electronic receipt I received from Superior Galleries.) I emphasize to you that I ended my phone call to Superior Galleries having been specifically told that the coin had already been shipped to me today. . . ."
To date, I still do not know the identity of the second Superior Galleries representative with whom I spoke on August 5. I therefore
have been careful not to directly attribute her statements to you, and a review of my prior emails will reveal this care. However, you have not stated that you were NOT the second representative with whom I spoke on that date, nor has Mr. Palafoutas; in fact, the tacit consensus seems to be that it was you who spoke with me on that date.
If you were that person, then do you deny telling me that the reason the coin had not shipped immediately after auction was because it was in transit from San Francisco? Do you deny telling me, after speaking with an unidentified third person (a male) in the background, that the coin had been shipped (past tense) to my address on that day? Do you deny that I asked, TWICE, what method of shipment had been used (past tense), and you replied, TWICE, that it was (past tense) first class mail? Do you deny that I expressed displeasure at the fact that my shipping instructions had been ignored, that you stated you were sorry about that, and that I replied, "So am I"? If you were the second representative with whom I spoke and you deny these exchanges, then what DO you contend was stated between us on that date? I'd be interested to hear what the unnamed third person present in the background on that date recalls about our conversation as well.
The truth may be unsettling, and it may even be unkind, but by definition it cannot be "not true." What incentive would I have to make up a story about my conversation with that second Superior Galleries representative, when such a story has no bearing on Superior Galleries'
breach of contract? The answer is "none." What was said to me by that second representative, however, goes a long way toward explaining my extreme anger over the manner in which Superior Galleries has handled this matter from the beginning.
Mr. Song has not replied to my email to him, and Mr. Palafoutas implies that this matter will continue to be addressed through you. I therefore inform you that, unless I receive notice no later than noon (CST) on Monday, August 22, 2005 that Superior Galleries has procured a replacement for the coin I am due under contract, either from "acar*" or from some other source, I will buy the coin offered by "acar*" and I will sue Superior Galleries for the difference between my purchase price and my winning auction bid, plus all costs and expenses I incur as a result of Superior Galleries' breach of contract.
I don't know what more needs to be said.
Brett C. Petranech, Attorney at Law
Madison, WI
_____
From: "Louis Palafoutas (x251)" <louisp@sgbh.com>
To: "beepy390 Beepy390" <beepy390@hotmail.com>,"Susan Fama (x228)" <susanf@sgbh.com>
CC: "Paul Song (x224)" <paulsong@sgbh.com>
Subject: RE: Superior Galleries
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:21:45 -0700
Hello Brett,
That coin is not an option. We will continue or efforts to fulfill this order. Thank you for the information. Feel free to contact me anytime.
Sincerely,
Louis Palafoutas
Director of Internet Operations
Superior Galleries, Inc.
_____
-----Original Message-----
From: beepy390 Beepy390 [mailto:beepy390@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:31 PM
To: Louis Palafoutas (x251)
Cc: Paul Song (x224); Susan Fama (x228)
Subject: RE: Superior Galleries
Mr. Palafoutas:
Thank you for your prompt reply. Regardless of which "option" Superior Galleries decides to avail itself, it has until noon CST on Monday to
deliver notice of procurement. Failing that, suit will be filed on Tuesday, August 23.
Brett C. Petranech, Attorney at Law
Madison, WI
_____ END OF EMAILS _____ END OF EMAILS _____ END OF EMAILS _____
Now for the kicker!
- Having received no further communication from Superior Galleries regarding their efforts to find another coin, I posted eBay feedback concerning the transaction on August 22 as follows:
"Ripoff! No coin! SG lied about it to me, won't provide replacement coin I found."
- That same day, Superior Galleries posted a reply as follows:
"Coin listed in error customer fully refunded, no ripoff, no lies"
- The next day, August 23, Superior Galleries posted the following feedback about me in relation to the transaction:
"Irresponsible use of feedback system, customer received a complete refund"
Not including the above, from April 2004 to present, I have received 43 positive feedbacks and zero negative feedbacks on eBay, all relating to purchases. The vast majority of my purchases are coins. Superior Galleries' negative feedback on me dropped my feedback score from 100% to 96.8%.
While I admit to being forceful in my communications with Superior Galleries, I also have been truthful and accurate from day one. While I am willing to accept mistake and inadvertance as excuses for failing to honor a deal, those excuses go out the window when accompanied by lies in any form. When I called to check on the status of my transaction, I was told TWICE that my order had gone out that day. Of course, it had not. When I located a replacement coin, I was told "too expensive," in so many words. When I posted truthful feedback, I was retaliated against.
I open the floor. Who is right on this one?
Brett ("Beepy") Petranech
Edited to add:
Upon reviewing all of Superior Galleries' eBay feedback, I found that it has a practice of posting negative feedback for those who post either negative OR EVEN NEUTRAL feedback about Superior Galleries, EVEN WHEN THE REASON FOR THE NEGATIVE OR NEUTRAL FEEDBACK WAS CAUSED BY SUPERIOR GALLERIES' AUCTIONING COINS NOT IN INVENTORY. Truth cannot be allowed to stand alone, I guess.
0
Comments
This is an easy one. Superior should have simply purchased a replacement coin and mailed it to you. If they had to pay $500....well.....that's just tough luck. What baffles me is that they spent over $500 in lost time/effort to find excuses not to compensate you for their error. Not to mention what something like this would cost them in reputation damage. It is a case of "bending over dollars to pick up pennies". I think that the upper management at Superior would have immediately rectified this situation by doing as I stated above.
I could go on, but I think my point is clear.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Whew!
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I got the retaliatory negative yet did no wrong. It wasn't Superior, but an e-bay seller. Bottom line, no, it's not right, and you may even have some legal grounds. But, is it worth the hassle?
Live and learn, and avoid doing future business with them.
So I say hold their feet to the fire, they aren't grandpa johnyy selling of one of his coins for a hearing aid. They are a well established arge dealer, as an entity knowes even better than most the legal ramifications they can apply and would, so they should reap what they have sown. Having said that, part of me sais, lighten up move on your not out of pocket. But, I would want to know when that coins was sold, how much it was sold for. There emails are insulting, I beleive you about the lying.
Thanks for the warning, I will be careful if, anbd thats a big if I deal wit hthem,. plenty of others out there happy to take my money.
Dealers have it happen from time to time. They make mistakes. That's a lot of emails back and forth for a $150 dollar coin. I'd say be more
patient in the future. You bet that Superior would have found a replacement for you eventually. And in return you would have established
an inside relationship with some of the people there for future purchases. Dealers have very long memories and won't forget this transaction.
As it is, you blew a business opportunity. You can probably make some amends by withdrawing your feedback through Square Trade
and writing a sincere letter of apology to Superior. If you're going to be collecting for years, you'll need Superior more than they
need you. Just think of all the great coins in their future inventory you can grab....possibly cheaply by kissing some butt.
Whether you take my advice or not - Welcome to the boards.
Free Trial
It sounds to me like it's a case of the "right hand" not knowing what the "left hand" is doing. That being said, you know what they say about being human... To error is human, to forgive is out of the question.
Welcome to you anyway.
<< <i>Just great, another bleepin' lawyer around here.
More like a wannabe
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I know there is such a thing as principle, but since they refunded your money, skip it and go on. On the other hand if it had bin a $15K or even a $1500.00 transaction, I could see your point. Since its only $153.00, show some mercy, mistakes happen.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
They say they did not have the coin and made a mistake. They refunded the money. You tried to muscle and intimidate them. They were courteous but did not bend. Negative feedbacks were exchanged. Could they have handled it better? You bet. Could you have handled it better? You bet.
Superior is a reputable operation, but like anyone, they make mistakes.
It's not like they took your money and ran. I can understand your frustration, but I highly doubt that you've been scammed or that Superior intentionally created this situation. I'd advise a little patience in this situation.
Personally, I think they should have purchased an equivalent coin and be done with it, much as Dennis mentioned above. They're screwing the pooch there, I agree.
By the way -- based on what I see below, your implying that Ms. Fama a liar was uncalled for. Do you really think that's the best way to get what you want?
I read the whole thing............................very well written
<< <i>Don't let go........................It's the principle, period.
I read the whole thing............................very well written
I agree to some degree. But his implying that the customer service rep was a liar was way over the line and not justified by the facts.
Superior messed up, but I see no reason to flame Susan Fama over it. He owes her a personal apology if no one else at Superior.
But then again, I don't give much creedance to a few negs.
Just think of all the great coins in their future inventory you can grab....possibly cheaply by kissing some butt.
Surely you must be kidding. What coins could Superior possibly carry in inventory that you can't get elsewhere and for the same or less money? Great coins? Give me a break! You think you can really "grab" great deals from Superior's inventory? It's a big pond out there and those guys are just one company. Let's move on folks, or the wrath of TAGZ will appear.
roadrunner
<< <i>Beepy, you ask "who is right on this one", and there is no doubt that you are. It seems really difficult to order anything over the internet lately though
He's right with respect to his beef with Superior as a business. They goofed, they goofed badly, and they should make it right.
Too bad he feels the need to abuse CSRs who had nothing to do with the error in the process.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
No, I'm not kidding. Roadrunner, you're not a newbie...stop acting like one.
Free Trial
<< <i>Now, if this was a K-Rand, I'd say they would be obligated to deliver another K-Rand. But collectible coins, even slabbed moderns, are not commodities. I repeat, coins are not commodities. You are not obligated to accept a similar coin and they are not obligated to deliver a comparable coin. Being a lawyer, I'm sure you can explain that better than I can. For the benefit of our audience, how about giving it a shot? >>
Well said, Andy. Having been a former software tech support guy who took a huge amount of abuse from customers because of mistakes made by sales or development -- nothing of my own doing -- I'm a bit sensitive to the shooting-the-messenger aspect of this situation.
Personally, I don't think $300 is worth the hit to their reputation, but that's Paul Song's call, apparently. Be that as it may, once someone starts abusing lower-level staffers who aren't decision-makers, they forfeit the moral high ground. It was clearly an honest mistake, and while I think the OP has a reasonable expectation that Superior will make *reasonable* efforts to make it right, I'm wondering if his expectations aren't too high.
How much would life suck if no one ever cut us any slack for honest mistakes we made? Do we really want to live in a society where people will cut us ZERO slack fof honest mistakes we make? I don't.
If in fact the female emplyee did make a mistake then it was an un-intentional lie (non-truth), if they did so to cver their behinds than it was bold faced lie.
I did read through his emails, he did inquire if it was Suan that he spoke with in his cross-examination email. From reading what was posted I di not see him directly call her a liar. Anyhow they are asking him to suck it up and move on, then they should get over the whole you called me aliar and I'm offended and suck it up as well.
<< <i>Although nothing will happen to Superior as they pay ebay big bucks, you may look at the ebay seller non-performance help. >>
You may want to look at the feedback policies as well
I wouldn't worry too much about one negative feedback - it's an imperfect system, and should only have an adverse effect if you plan on selling, and there are ways around that. If it were me, once I had received a refund and left feedback, I would have forgotten about it - life is too short. After all, it's just modern crap
"Exactly."
While it's true that certified coins are each unique and, in the eyes of the law, not properly considered commodities, the fact is that in most instances one PCGS MS70 will appear identical to another. Perfect equals perfect, after all. When assessing damages in failing to honor a perfect coin transaction, the dollar amount attributed to damage, if any, will be the cost of a substantially comparable coin if one is available.
In the case of toned coins, all such rules are off. Toned coins, like parcels of real estate, are truly unique and thus specific performance on the contract would be a legitimate legal demand in a lawsuit. Attempts to void the sale to the intervening purchaser could be pursued with reasonable chance of success.
As for this deal, I probably would have let the whole thing go but for one thing: My conversation with the second SG rep on August 5. I do not know to this date if it was Ms. Fama, and if my emails are read carefully, I repeatedly state as much. Whoever it was, that rep responded to my simple request to check on the status of my "order" (as SG terms eBay sales) by explaining that the delay in shipment was attributable to my coin being in transit from another location. How could this statement be true if no coin was in inventory? This second rep then told me that my coin had shipped out that day. How could this statement be true if no coin was in inventory? When I asked what method of shipment had been used, I was told USPS first-class. This surprised me, given my shipping instructions, so I asked whether the rep was sure it had gone USPS first-class. The rep said, "Yes, first-class," in reply to my second inquiry. While ziggy thinks these responses were innocent mistakes, I disagree. These responses caused me to hang up the phone that day happy that my coin was finally en route to me. Now imagine how I felt when I got Ms. Fama's email that night. EVERYTHING I'd been told on the phone earlier that day was B.S.!
Thanks for all the replies.
1. Superior may not have intentionally lied to you. Yes, they bungled this order very badly. However, it appears the biggest mistake they made was telling you the order was shipped (which they honestly may have thought was the case) without checking the facts. Superior clearly has some administrative problems.
2. Superior was trying to work with you, and was not ignoring you. I would have given them some more time (say 2 or 3 more weeks) to find you a replacement coin. This is not a life or death situation. After the additional 2 or 3 weeks, if it was clear they were dragging their feet, then proceed with escalating the situation.
3. Why did you find it necessary in your correspodence to trumpet that you are an attorney? While you might think that strengthens your position, more likely it gives the impression you are a troublemaker. Communication handled in a polite, businesslike manner, which you did for the most part, should be sufficent.
4. You should not have left any feedback until the matter was completely resolved. Since you are suing (or threatening to sue) Superior, the matter was not resolved.
If I were you, I would give Superior some more time to find you a replacement coin, and then agree to mutually remove the feedback once Superior delivers the coin to you. That, to me, would be preferable to litigation. I would have the patience to give Superior another 3-4 weeks to resolve this ---- I would NOT have patience to engage Superior in litigation.
Good luck, and welcome to the boards.
<< <i>As for this deal, I probably would have let the whole thing go but for one thing: My conversation with the second SG rep on August 5. I do not know to this date if it was Ms. Fama, and if my emails are read carefully, I repeatedly state as much. >>
As a lawyer, I'd think you'd be careful to get the name of everyone you talk to.
Look, morally you're in the right. They sold you a coin they didn't have. And it's stupid, IMO, that a multi-million dollar operation can't eat $300-400 and give you an equally desirable coin. That's a business failing on the higher levels of management.
But many reasonable, average people would interpret your correspondence as an attack on Ms. Fama's integrity, which, IMO, the facts don't support beyond a reasonable doubt. Yes, I know you didn't specifically call HER a liar, but I think the "reasonable person" standard would make people think you did. And you heard Paul Song say why Ms. Fama couldn't accommodate you on that $500 coin. It was HIS call, not hers.
I'll say it again: You have a legitimate beef with Mr. Song and with Superior. But I think you owe Ms. Fama a personal apology -- not because you are wrong in this situation, but because you shot at the wrong target.
<< <i>Brett - Welcome to the boards! The best advice I can give is that you should loosen up. Superior made an honest mistake. Just let it go. This is a friggin' hobby, not a blood sport. (Of course Russ may disagree.) That said, there's one more thing that you should consider. Superior sold you a coin that they thought they still owned, but they had apparently already sold it to someone else. Now, if this was a K-Rand, I'd say they would be obligated to deliver another K-Rand. But collectible coins, even slabbed moderns, are not commodities. I repeat, coins are not commodities. You are not obligated to accept a similar coin and they are not obligated to deliver a comparable coin. >>
Good advice from Andy who is not a lawyer, but occasionally sounds like one (Probably a lawyer wannabe
Many years ago - (1979) I spoke with a reputable dealer about purchasing a $10,000 coin (a Proof $10 Gold Liberty). I traveled to the ANA which I believe was St. Louis - when I got there, the coin was not there - no good explanation - just "we don't have it" I was rather upset. Seems I had spoken with a senior member of the firm who promised me the coin, but somehow, the junior member of the firm didn't get the message and he sold it to someone else. I had done business with this firm before, but they didn't have the coin that was promised to me and the several others they had in stock, I didn't like - although I was justifiably upset, we agreed that we'd make it right on another deal in the future. And, as I was at the ANA - had a little "extra" money, I bought other coins - There are lots of coins to buy - my suggestion is find another coin - in fact, use the money to buy something that is a nice collectable coin who's value isn't dependant on the number on the paper insert - the coin you didn't get is probably quite common, they just haven't slabbed them all yet.
As for the dealer who didn't sell me the $10,000 proof gold coin - a couple of years later I was at the US Gold Coin Auction (the Eliasberg US gold) there were some fabulous coins at that sale - the same dealer bought a coin that I really wanted - the 1909 Roman Finish St Gaudens Prood $20 Gold - After the auction ended - I went over to him and asked if he had bought that coin for a customer - The Reply was "No, I bought it for Stock" - I asked him what he would sell it to me for? He flipped it to me for less than 5% over what he paid - He remembered the earlier coin I had wanted to buy - but somehow had gone to someone else - and in the later transaction treated me very fair on another coin that I really wanted. The Dealers? - Art Kagin & Don Kagin - Two very fine coin dealers - Art and I used to Kibbitz at every ANA and at several shows he and I had dinner together - Art probably forgot more about coins than most other dealers know.
BTW - In my daytime job, I also practice law and to threaten someone over a $160 deal gone sour indicates a waste of a good education - JMHO
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
GTS
Your post made me chuckle. Is any of this worth my time? Of course not. Not even a half-hour of my workday.
What stuck in my craw, and what I haven't succeeded in coughing up yet, is the absolute failure to provide customer service by this seller. I had to call on the status of my order because they accepted my money but no one even knew that a coin was due. I was told that I hadn't paid for the coin when I had a receipt in my hand. I was given a whole load of crap, front to back, by someone as concerned the status of my transaction. Then when I moved it up the ladder one step, I was told in no uncertain terms that the seller's approach to contracts is purely economic, and that actually honoring them is a secondary concern. I was told that surely I would understand this, and that conveying this information to me represented a sincere effort to deliver on the contract by the seller.
As a lawyer, every tripwire in my being was triggered. Not because any damages were forthcoming, but because this debacle was being presented to me as legitimate business practice which I was expected to condone by inaction.
I'm still coughing here. Sorry.
As for the coins you describe, all I can say is "MY GOD I WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOUR COLLECTION!"
Thanks for taking the time.
Brett
My 2 cents:
1. Superior auctioned off a modern MS70 Silver Commem (worth around $250 retail) (last auction sale on Teletrade last month was around $210 with the juice incidently), which you purchased for about $100 below market value.
2. It turned out Superior could not deliver on the coin they sold you and I believe it was purely an honest mistake on their part. Why do I believe this - because last week I got a call from a Superior employee asking me if I could assist them with locating a Jeff MS70 Commem and they would happily pay me up to $300 if I could deliver the coin to them promply. I told them the coin was not worth that much, but they said they needed one as soon as possible to cover a situation. Unfortunately, I did not have one in stock to help them out. They were clearly prepared to spend $150 more than your bid to make this problem right as far as I can tell.
3. Superior might consider offering to pay you the $100 you "lost" (difference between your winning bid and retail value of the coin) as a gesture of good faith, while continuing to search for a replacement coin for you. Your call whether you want to take their $100 or just tell them you will wait for the replacement coin (which I suspect Superior could find given 60-90 days to wait for the next one to come up for auction in the ordinary course).
4. You guys mutually agree to correct whatever ebay negatives you gave each other.
It is that easy - Paul Song is A-1 over there. He would probably pay you the $100 out of his pocket under normal circumstances. Again, I believe they were prepared to lose $100-$150 in any event to try to make this right for you. Things just got overheated too quickly.
Wondercoin
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Newmismatist:
Your post made me chuckle. Is any of this worth my time? Of course not. Not even a half-hour of my workday.
* * *
As a lawyer, every tripwire in my being was triggered. Not because any damages were forthcoming, but because this debacle was being presented to me as legitimate business practice which I was expected to condone by inaction.
I'm still coughing here. Sorry.
As for the coins you describe, all I can say is "MY GOD I WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOUR COLLECTION!"
Thanks for taking the time.
Brett >>
Been there - BUT - it IS a hobby - sounds like Superior dropped the ball - I happen to know the CEO quite well. I have bought and sold a lot of Proof gold over the years with him - an excellent coin dealer IMHO -
As for the chuckle - I'd much rather be able to laugh about a stupid mistake (clearly theirs, not yours), than go to war over something that's too trivial to waste good billable time - Turn on your PM button and and we can discuss a better solution.
(sometime over the weekend, as it's late here and I have to get up early to run down to Dearborn to the CSNS show in the morning)
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
My advice would be to take wondercoin's advice and allow cooler heads to prevail.
Ken
Commonsense was breached by both parties; Superior should have instantly rectified the problem to avoid wasting valuable time and to add a satisfied client to thier customer database........and Beepy should have just written this one off due to the very small dollar amount.
Those facts stated, Superior is the one who breached a contract (the eBay auction agreement) and, therefore, should have simply offered a settlement. I could see their reason for squirming if we were talking about a $50,000 coin, but the coin in question really is a commodity and could be replaced for $500 or less with little to no effort. An album toned 1817 Bust Half in AU-58 would be a whole other story.....
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
<< <i> An album toned 1817 Bust Half in AU-58 would be a whole other story..... >>
Hmmm - I saw one of those at ANA - a nice one too!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
I'm an attorney. If you live close to LA, take them to small claims court. It will cost you $10, but if the facts are as you state, you will win. I am actually not very letigious for an attorney, but I hate to see the little guy get screwed. I, for one, will not do business with them from now on. There are also a few on this board who I refuse to buy from as well, regardless of how good the deal may be, for similar reasons. VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS!
Hmmm - I saw one of those at ANA - a nice one too!
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
<< <i>Beepy:
I'm an attorney. If you live close to LA, take them to small claims court. It will cost you $10, but if the facts are as you state, you will win. I am actually not very letigious for an attorney, but I hate to see the little guy get screwed. I, for one, will not do business with them from now on. There are also a few on this board who I refuse to buy from as well, regardless of how good the deal may be, for similar reasons. VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS! >>
Lets see - $160 deal - go to court wait around 1/2 day - Beeby (a lawyer too) could have billed - say $1200 at LA rates for the 4 hours he wasted in court, not to count the stress in dealing with the hellacious traffic to get to and from the court in LA - he "wins" - gets $160 + $50 bucks in costs - But wait - they already gave him his money - and the municipal court judge has 100 other small claims cases that day, is a bit harrassed and dismisses the case because Beepy got his money back and can't file a claim for specific in small claims court - So a total waste of time and the aggravation and stress level gets even higher - Not good advice in my mind - but sometimes proving "You're right" out weighs the concept of "What's right"
BTW - I think Beepy is correct in this situation - BUT it's gotten a bit out of proportion for the "wrong" involved - there's btter ways to resolve this problem.
But I would NOT recommend anyone go to small claims court for $160 - especially a professional who bills at between $200 and $500/hour - if he "Wins" he loses - not my idea of the way to enjoy a fun hobby.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Very poor form on Superiors part IMO.
Well.......it was an "h o n e s t" mistake, who gives a rats a$$, it was an error plain and simple and Superior really dropped the ball here as I see it, in more ways than one. Rather than a lot of non productive double talk and detailed excuses, they should have simply politely apologized and promised to locate a replacement coin for the buyer ASAP and fulfilled their end of the contract........ case closed. They could have also waived the buyers fee as a further show of goodwill and because of their error IMO.
So let's see......what if he had bid on and won a very expensive multi million dollar rarity in that Superior auction and then told them:
"I bid on the coin in error, and I apologize for any disappointment or inconvenience" and that "I am taking measures to prevent this from happening again" But it was an "h o n e s t" mistake
I don't think the amount of money involved in this case makes any difference, and it appears that Superior lost a customer and now got some bad publicity over a couple hundred dollar coin........smart thinking.
i accept mistakes, but i dont wanna deal with a specific type of people.
I've never heard concern about an attorney being a little guy that might get screwed......
Since in this case, you are an attorney and can represent yourself basically for free and can recover costs, I'd go for it now that they've neg'd you for something that is %100 their fault and they should have owned up to it and "bought in" the coin they are short to you. You would actually be doing them a favor, even though they must be too myopic to realize it. Perhaps your efforts will help put an end to these "phantom auctions". Obviously, this has happened to quite a few others and getting them to get their act together on this might keep it from happening to others in the future.
This short-sighted business practice has cost them with me. I will no longer bid on any of their eBay auctions (I don't need the aggravation of finding out that I've been participating in a phantom auction again). They actually called me looking for a consignment (which I had been considering recently) but I won't ever be consigning with them unless I sense that they have gotten things together. How many others have backed away from them because of this issue? Who knows, but what ever happened to doing the right thing for the customer and taking responsibility, even if a listing is in error? Their excuses about their internal system problems are irrelevant. They listed it, they didn't end it early because it was no longer available for sale, and the auction ended with a bona fide buyer. Done deal, case closed. Either deliver the coin or a substantially identical coin agreed to by the buyer or negotiate a monetary settlement with the buyer. You don't just say (sorry, we'll try to find another one but only if we can buy it cheap). The ill will caused by this stance will surely cost them more in the long run than the few hundred dollars it would have taken to solve it immediately. Instead of all this negative publicity, Superior then maybe earns a thread title like "Superior's the best, they took care of me even though they listed in error". In my own case, I just let them out of it and I bet most people do too because it's just not worth the cost and aggravation of pursuing it. Maybe that's what they're counting on as it seems that they have had more than enough time to correct this problem. What if this had been a $5,000+ coin? You would obviously win the legal war and I bet their system would be fail safe within 24 hours! If it was costing them decent $ every time this happened, I would think that it would surely get fixed pronto.
Let us know how this all works out. Hopefully they will do the right thing and take care of you and get this issue of phantom auctions fixed. They somehow need to give the bidders some sort of comfort level that they will own up to their mistakes. I, for one, would like to have that knowledge so that I could bid again. Perhaps a positive resolution in your case will go along way towards that end.
Another thought: Wouldn't a company like Superior have "errors and omissions" insurance to cover these types of things or is it too small a claim for that to kick in? Anyone?
The people I dealt with at Superior were very apologetic and professional under an obviously difficult situation. They were straight up with me about the screw-up and I don't feel I was lied to. They said they'd refund me and continue to look for the coin but I never have been contacted that they found another. You know, a simple offer of "how about a $25 credit for your trouble and our boneheadedness" would have done wonders in my case. That would have made me happy and willing to bid again. But it's just the attitude of "an auction means nothing and you can have you're $ back" without any other sense of obligation other than a vague "we'll look for it" that really rubs one the wrong way.
Kaleidoscope Coins
Dont want to have anyone feeling left out.
I will say this though, big companies make mistakes and can be
a little insensitive at times. As for the collector, life is too short to
make a federal case out of a reletively minor though irritating issue.
I say move on and enjoy the hobby. Nothing says that you have to do
bussiness with any company that you have had problems with.
(edited to correct spelling)
Camelot