Is this a cud or a dent?

relayer · August 22, 2005 3:36AM

At 7 o'clock on the obverse. I think PCGS would have BB'd it if it were a dent.

Opinions please

Scavenger · August 22, 2005 3:41AM

Hard to tell from a picture, although they tend to be a little more forgiving on the older coins- I think a dent would have received a bag.

Danegeld · August 22, 2005 3:42AM

Looks like a die cud to me.

Ben

Longacre · August 22, 2005 3:43AM

It's really hard to tell, but I will vote for a cud.

PerryHall · August 22, 2005 4:00AM

Definitely a cud. If that was a rim bruse there would be a noticable flat spot on the rim at that location.

JadeRareCoin · August 22, 2005 4:07AM

It would be nice if it were a cud, but I would guess it is rim damage vs. a cud. One cannot say for certain unless the coin is removed from the slab and examined. I don't know of any 1833 halves with an obverse rim cud.

Shamika · August 22, 2005 4:17AM

I think it's a cud, but I've seen dents that look similar to this. Without cracking it out, it's hard to tell.

Fairlaneman · August 22, 2005 4:19AM

I would say dent after looking at this.

Ken

coppercoins · August 22, 2005 4:19AM

It would have to be amazingly well placed to be a dent. I'd go with CUD on this one.

billboat · August 22, 2005 4:34AM

Best I can tell it is an 1833 O-112. Overton makes no mention of any cuds associated with this die marriage, nor, as Jade pointed out, with any other 1833. So even though it looks like it could be a cud, I'll go with rim damage.

Edit: Maybe it looked like a cud to PCGS --- and you dodged a BB.

Barry · August 22, 2005 4:36AM

Looking at the larger picture, I'd say dent. Wouldn't a cud be even with the rim? Looks like the rim extends above the "cud."

BillJones · August 22, 2005 4:42AM

It kind of looks like a cud, but you can't be sure without looking at the edge. Since you can do that to an extent with PCGS slabs, check it out. If you can see an irregular indentation on the edge by the lump, chances are it’s a rim bump. If the edge is clear of any markings it’s a cud.

BTW I’ve seen coins with rim bumps in PCGS and NGC slabs. Sometimes they net graded, which I thought was not supposed to happen. I think NGC might be the worse offender on this since it’s easier to hide damage with their slabs, which have a think opaque rim.

Nysoto · August 22, 2005 5:43AM

Dent. There has never been a full rim cud found on any year of the capped bust lettered edge series, but quite a few are found on PreTurban halves.

dorkkarl · August 22, 2005 5:53AM

obvious rim dent.

now, why in the he11 do you think pcgs would body-bag a coin like this for a minor dent???

jeeeezzz.

K S

cladking · August 22, 2005 6:32AM

It does look like a cud but I would expect more weakness in the ST area of "STATES" on
the reverse if it were actually a broken die. Without something to back up the reverse
die I'd expect a major weakness in this area.

I suspect it's a dent.

Dismeguy · August 22, 2005 9:35AM

My first impression was a rim dent, the raised metal looks higher than the rim

mozin · August 22, 2005 10:18AM

I think it is a dent and I am surprised PCGS encapsulated this coin. I had a number of Bust Halves BB for smaller rim dents than this one. Also had one BB for being warped. Problem was in that variety the die was also warped sooooo........

dorkkarl · August 22, 2005 9:44PM

sorry, but i can't imagine any legitimate grading co. that would be stupid enough to refuse to grade a coin w/ such a minor rim dent. it is MINOR on a coin of this size. not like the same size dent on a half-dime!

as for being a cud, just think about what it would take for a rim cud to appear on a OPEN-COLLAR struck coin.

K S

mozin · August 23, 2005 1:54AM

<< <i>sorry, but i can't imagine any legitimate grading co. that would be stupid enough to refuse to grade a coin w/ such a minor rim dent. it is MINOR on a coin of this size. not like the same size dent on a half-dime!

as for being a cud, just think about what it would take for a rim cud to appear on a OPEN-COLLAR struck coin.

K S >>

The Bust Halves that I submitted with much smaller rim dings were XF/AU grades so maybe that is why they were BB.

dorkkarl · August 23, 2005 3:09AM

ah, i can see your point. i do agree that a unc coin w/ a significant rim dent might be perceived as damage & fail to be slabed.

K S

Barry · August 23, 2005 3:13AM

<< <i>as for being a cud, just think about what it would take for a rim cud to appear on a OPEN-COLLAR struck coin.

K S >>

Closed collar striking began in 1828 for dimes. Was it different for halves?

dorkkarl · August 23, 2005 3:15AM

yes, 1836

K S

JadeRareCoin · August 23, 2005 3:36AM

as for being a cud, just think about what it would take for a rim cud to appear on a OPEN-COLLAR struck coin

Are you talking "rim cud" or "edge cud". Big difference. While rim cuds are more common on closed-collar strikes, they also occur on open-collar strikes. The dynamics of open and closed-collar dies are fairly similar. Both collar types subjected the obv/rev dies to substantial potential stress. Die clashing, which occurs in both closed and open collar strikes, subjected the dies to dramatic impact forces, thereby breaking away pieces of the edge of the die. The edge/rim of a die is the weakest point, which is why most cuds are found on the rim. Internal cuds do occur, but they are rarer than rim cuds.

Edge cuds, on the other hand, are more likely to occur in a closed-collar die set-up. An edge cud is on the edge of a coin (where the reeding would be).

Longacre · August 23, 2005 3:42AM

Jade-- great info. Thanks for sharing.

dorkkarl · August 23, 2005 9:46AM

i think a cud, by def'n cannot occur on a open-collar struck coin, because a cud is raised metal caused by the detachment of part of the die where it meets the collar, thus resulting in the raised metal. however, needless to say a die-break, which can occur at the edge of a coin, also produces raised metal on the coin. ie, i think a cud requires the use of 3 dies to occur, while a die-break (which may occur at the edge) requires only 2 dies.

i guess that you might say a die-break could be called an "internal cud"....

great discussion.

anyone know when the term "cud" came into numismatic usage?

K S

romarub · August 29, 2005 2:22AM

Don't forget that Overton was not aware of all the bust half die marriages out there, or all the die states, when he researched the series. New ones are coming to light all the time. Couldn't this very well be a die state that has not been reported until now?

romarub · August 29, 2005 2:34AM

Again, Jade, you cannot dismiss the existence of a cud on an 1833 bust half simply because you're unaware of any based on Overton's failure to report any. Overton's work is undoubtedly the bible of bust half references, but it's not written in stone, or even on a silver planchet!

dorkkarl · August 29, 2005 2:56AM

"die marriage" or "die state" has nothing to do w/ the argument, it's a issue of whether or not it's possible for a open-collar struck coin can to develop a EDGE cud.

K S

PerryHall · August 29, 2005 3:35AM

dorkkarl---Why does it matter if the die was used in an open collar or a closed collar when it comes to die breaks?

Wolf359 · August 29, 2005 3:42AM

Looks like a cud from the photos. If the reverse side shows the Blakesley effect (weakness
in the strike) opposite the cud that could be proof enough.

PerryHall · August 29, 2005 4:16AM

The Blakesley effect refers to clipped planchet coins where the rim opposite the clip is weaker.

Nysoto · August 29, 2005 4:46AM

Known full rim cuds on lettered edge half dollars:

1794 O.104a
1795 O.103a
1795 O.107a
1805 O.105a
1805 O.112a
1805 O.113a unique Benson
1806 O.101a
1806 O.104b
1806 O.105"b" unique "The Cud Book"
1806 O.107a
1806 O.108
1806 O.111a

1807 - 1836 no known full rim cuds

Five of the twelve rim cuds are not listed in Overton, there could be others but unlikely on an 1833.

All but the 1806 105b are reverse cuds. Chris Pilliod wrote an article about this, stating that in pre-1807 halves the reverse die was the hammer die, as the broken piece of the dies fell out when the hammer die was raised. Retained cuds are more common on 1794-1807 obverse dies such as 1805 103 and 1805 104, these never broke out into full cuds because the broken piece would have no place to fall if it was the anvil die. On 1807-1836 halves the obverse die is thought to be the hammer die, as machine doubling is almost always on the obverse from a loose die.

An edge die cud can also be from an edge lettering die that has failed, very rare.

Some numismatist believe that with lettered edge coins, the diameter was partially set by the edge lettering and rimming machine, which thickens the edge and work-hardens it, helping to control the expansion on "open collar"coins during striking. Nobody knows for sure what the open collar on the screw press consisted of as none has survived.

I have a bunch of these half dollars with cuds including a very rare 1806 O.111 double cud, I will post some pics in a week or so.

JadeRareCoin · August 29, 2005 7:57AM

Nysoto, great information. THANKS!

Again, Jade, you cannot dismiss the existence of a cud on an 1833 bust half simply because you're unaware of any based on Overton's failure to report any. Overton's work is undoubtedly the bible of bust half references, but it's not written in stone, or even on a silver planchet!

romarub, I understand your point and agree with your logic. I apply the same logic when dealing with coins; just because something isn't documented, doesn't mean it can't exist. New discoveries are made occassionally. However.......we are talking about an extensively studies and researched area of numismatics (Capped Bust Halves). Nysoto's thoughts sum things up well.

relayer: I would be happy to examine the coin for you. I will even pay postage both ways for a chance to look at your 1833 Half. I am 99.9% certain that it is not a cud, but it is worth a look and a follow-up explanation as to why it is a cud vs. a rim ding.

Closing thought: Usually, die breaks will be present on coins struck from earlier die states where a cud ultimately forms. This is documented on numerous varieties in varies coin series. In other words, if your 1833 has a rim cud, we would expect to find at least a few coins with die breaks in the area of the cud. I don't know of any 1833 halves having obverse die breaks (or "die cracks" as some say).

Dennis

relayer · August 29, 2005 8:14AM

Dennis,

Thanks for your offer, but I've received payment from the buyer (it was sold for $82.50) so it's on its way to him. It was the buyer who initially asked the question, and I directed him to this thread.

Maybe he'll join and post the results of his new discovery coin -- and sell it for $50,000.

mozin · August 29, 2005 10:05AM

In THE CUD BOOK by Sam Thurman and Arnold Margolis are pictured two different Capped Bust Half Dollars with cuds. The book lists cuds on this series as "scarce".

romarub · September 1, 2005 6:07AM

I thought I'd put in my 2 cents (50 cents?) worth and refer back to the initial posting on this thread. Sad to say that upon in-hand, physical examination of the PCGS slabbed 1833 O.112 bust half in question, it turned out not to be a cud, after all. Under 10x mag. in sunlight it was seen that the coin had an edge dent at the site of what looked like the possible cud; the slab had to be viewed at just the right angle, but a definite concave indentation was seen on the edge in the area of interest. What was thought to be the possible cud was actually a deformation in the coin's surface metal at the denticles adjacent to the area of impact, and nowhere near as raised from the surface as might be concluded from the scan. Thus, the 1833 halves remain unrepresentative of a cud. Robert

romarub · September 1, 2005 6:24AM

I want to congratulate Jade on his accurate predication of the answer to this question.
On the topic of cuds, I'd be interested in getting some thoughts on the 1814-107 bust half with the "worm on the nose" internal cud (as Glenn Peterson describes it in The Ultimate Guide to Attributing Bust Half Dollars). In reviewing auction records and photos of this Overton variety for the past 20 years or so, it appears that only about 5% carry this feature. Can anyone confirm this or provide other information relating to this feature? Thanks, Robert

JadeRareCoin · September 1, 2005 7:17AM

Robert,

I am not specifically familiar with 1814, O-107, but I do know of several other Capped Bust varieties with internal cuds. Some have cuds on the lips, others on letters, etc. I would call them die chips, as opposed to internal cuds, but the terms are interchangeable when generalizing. Ever see a "dropped wheat" Lincoln Cent? It's where a piece of the die breaks out of the wheat stalk and leaves a blob-like feature. Same concept with the "worm on nose" 1814 half that you mentioned. Rarely will a small die anomoly such as a small internal cud or die chip add value to a bust half, unless it separates the coin from the main variety into a sub-variety (i.e. 1821 O-103a and others).

JadeRareCoin · September 2, 2005 3:11AM

Everyone:

I just received an email from a bust half specialist. He does not have a login to the PCGS forum, but has been trying to get one. For some reason, he is having difficulty obtaining a login/password. Anyway, here's his email, which contains valuable information on the subject of this thread:

Hi Dennis,

I just read your reply from a few days ago concerning cuds. There are no rim cuds on capped bust halves because of the change in shape to the die starting with the capped bust series. Cuds are fairly common on pre-turb halves and all other silver denominations (dollars???), but didn't happen on capped bust halves because the shape of the dies were changed to a bevel just above the machined surface, and the taper ended about an inch above. Edge cuds are a different animal and are caused by failing edge dies that leave lumps. Internal cuds are more properly referred to as die chips, and they are actually very common if you know where to look. They happen most frequently on the outer crotch of R in AMERICA, next most common spot is in N (UNITED), inside the A on 1828-30 halves and on three die marriages, a die chip forms in S1 (STATES). 1814 O.107 late states can sport two nasty die chips, which formed after the platinum (see Logan) coins were struck (see attachment). The chips are above the nose and in the serif of 1. On my old computer. I have a picture that Sheridan Downey took of the obverse die used to strike 1809 O.108,109, and 110. Also the fantasy piece that ANR sold in their last sale.

dorkkarl · September 2, 2005 3:13AM

<< <i>Internal cuds are more properly referred to as die chips >>

yep, i totally agree w/ this.

more specifically, i believe a "cud" would properly be defined as requiring two dies, either an obv. or rev. die, plus an edge die, which is why i do not believe that a OPEN-COLLAR stuck coin can have a "cud".

K S

Conder101 · September 5, 2005 12:42AM

I would have to disagree with that. There are many early date large cent varieties with cuds, and they were struck with open collars.

Is this a cud or a dent?

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