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Old green holder (OGH) cynicism
RYK
Posts: 35,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
Whenever I see a seller promote a coin with with words "old green holder" in the description (or, heaven forbid, title), I immediately turn on the ryk distrust-o-meter™. The idea that the coin is touted as an upgrade candidate is implicit in these three words. From what I have seen, any experienced seller with a coin in an "old green holder" will upgrade the coin himself/herself if it is a candidate. (The one exception is the 1859 cent that EagleEye sold to Shylock in the older holder, so Shylock could get the upgrade 
) What's left in the OGHs are the accurately graded or overgraded coins that deserve no special cachet or additional consideration, other than the possible fact that the coins have been stable (not turned fugly) while residing in the holder.
Exception: Fresh collections that occcasionally come to auction, like the Galveston Collection in the recent ANR sale and the Cincinnati Collection (2005 Heritage FUN). Both of these were gold coin collections that were put together years ago and largely left in the older holders (PCGS green and NGC fatboys) for the sale. As a group, it is easy to get excited about these new-to-market coins. This scenario is played out a couple times each year.
Bottom line: If the coin (OGH or otherwise) is being sold by a knowledgeable seller and is an upgrade candidate, it has already been tried.
) What's left in the OGHs are the accurately graded or overgraded coins that deserve no special cachet or additional consideration, other than the possible fact that the coins have been stable (not turned fugly) while residing in the holder.Exception: Fresh collections that occcasionally come to auction, like the Galveston Collection in the recent ANR sale and the Cincinnati Collection (2005 Heritage FUN). Both of these were gold coin collections that were put together years ago and largely left in the older holders (PCGS green and NGC fatboys) for the sale. As a group, it is easy to get excited about these new-to-market coins. This scenario is played out a couple times each year.
Bottom line: If the coin (OGH or otherwise) is being sold by a knowledgeable seller and is an upgrade candidate, it has already been tried.
3
Comments
<< <i>Sometimes "cynicism" = "Truth" >>
In cases like that, looking for older holder coins can still be a way to get a slightly better coin for slightly less money -- and calling your attention to the holder can net slightly more for the seller.
For what its worth, though, the best of these pickings are in 6-digit ANACS holders. The sellers tend not to even realize what they've got.
1900-O PCGS MS65 OGH -> PCGS MS66
1899-O PCGS MS65 OGH (Doiley) - > PCGS MS66
1891-CC PCGS MS63 OGH -> PCGS MS64
You just have to be very carefull in your selection. Also, I believe you have a better shot if you crack them out versus resubmit.
JMO!
Who knows, in ten years, maybe a "rattler" will be worth a particular price, regardless of the coin inside, just because there are so few of them left. (I can dream, can't I?)
Check out the Southern Gold Society
<< <i>Bottom line: If the coin (OGH or otherwise) is being sold by a knowledgeable seller and is an upgrade candidate, it has already been tried. >>
I love the old green holders, but RYK is right on the money with this statement.
Dealers don't give away upgrade candidates - PERIOD!
I think gold coins look terrific with the contrast of the green labels.
Re: Rattlers, earlier this year I purchased two circulated Dahlonega $5's in Rattlers. I ended up having them regraded only because they did not stack well with the other slabs, nor did they sit well in the slab boxes. Both upgraded, but not as much as I expected.
Huh?
Maybe you need more rattlers rather than less of them?
That's what I think!
I think mirabela has a good point, in that many nice for the grade or upgrade coins are in old holders still because the next grade price difference isn't worth the extra grading fees, postage, time, etc... And I still think that there are many smaller dealers that don't have enough excitement about tpg's and the crackout game to evaluate every old holder for a premium coin. I don't mind dealers making a notable mention in a listing about the age of the holder- what I do find offensive is those dealers who claim that EVERY old holder they have is a sure-fire upgrade......... sometimes coin dealers really piss me off.........
Don't get me wrong. There are some merits of older holder coins, including that puttied coins should be more obvious in them. However, the coin should carry the holder, not the other way around.
Finally, two of my favorite and most-respected dealers (no names mentioned) prefer to sell coins in old green holders (rather than trying for upgrades, etc.). In both of these cases, I do believe that the sellers genuinely believe that the coins are nice for the grade when they say so and upgrade candidates when they say so. I also believe that these sellers are not trying to deceive the buyer or over-hype the coins--it is not their style in both cases. I also believe that it is incumbent on the buyer to scrutinize the coin and make sure that it is solid for the price, as in all cases.
I like to go to shows and carry and old cardboard box with coins for sale in it that has the old NGC logo and address label from when they were in Jersey, some dealers spot that right away and you can tell they are salivating at the prospect of picking up some older holdered coins that are upgrade candidates. Not to dealer bash or anything, I just find it amusing...
John
I like coins in old holders.
An older holder doesn’t mean that a coin is a lock upgrade or even a possible upgrade (any more than any other coin). Nor does it guarantee that a coin is original, or unconserved.
But it does guarantee that it wasn’t messed with recently, and given the dramatic acceleration of coin doctoring in the last few years, that's important. Further, many doctored coins tend to degrade over time in the holder. A coin in an older holder provides some additional assurance that the coin is stable, and will stay looking the way that it does now.
1. Not everything in the title is hype. As a seller writing titles and subtitles I have come to realize (through questions) that many buyers only read the title. So a seller should make the title as descriptive as possible.
2. I have no idea why you would have a problem with putting that part of the description in the description. It is accurate.
3. As pointed out above, may people want OGHs for reasons other than upgrade.
4. The thoughts on OGH upgrades is starting to change. Many will tell you that coins are in OGHs still because they are clearly NOT a candidate for upgrade.
--Jerry
IMO, this is the single best attribute of a coin in an older holder.
I rekindled this old thread becuase of my recent experience (the seller going on and on about the holder, not the coin). I know it has been discussed to death, but I learned a new rule for buying coins: If the single most remarkable thing about the coin is the old green holder, it's probably not so remarkable a coin.
My reply to DennisH's thread from nearly 2 years ago......
Just had a conversation with another board member on this OGH 'myth'.
My take is that most 'PQ', or undergraded coins in OGH have been cracked out & sent in.
This was probably done so many times when PCGS went from green to blue holders (maybe fueled by Scott Travers book on how to make money......) that OGH got the reputation of instant upgrade.
Now, the majority that remains in OGH are those that were graded correctly or are overgraded.
The vast majority of OGH coins I have do not seem to be any better than those in NBH (New Blue Holders) & in some cases look overgraded.......IMO.
an unmessed with coin eh?
i collect gold so this is less a worry for me and tend to agree with
liking older plastic. (but less now days for the upgrade).
interesting thread and demonstrates grade inflation for the newer folks.
<< RYK -- I think your basic idea is true with regard to coins where the upgrade makes a big difference in price. In series where the difference is not enough to warrant trying the upgrade, there are lots of coins out there in green-label AU55 holders that would probably go 58 today -- and be considered nice for the grade.>>
I agree with Mirabela
Here's my first OGH. I will be selling it soon.
I do not know enough yet to know if an coin would upgrade. As of now the PCGS price guide lists this MS65 FB Mercury Dime at $50. At MS66 the value would only go up to $72. That isn't enough of a price increase to warrant an upgrade attempt besides the fact that I like the holder.
Show us your favorite OGH that you think would upgrade with your reply to the thread.
<< <i>But it does guarantee that it wasn’t messed with recently, and given the dramatic acceleration of coin doctoring in the last few years, that's important. Further, many doctored coins tend to degrade over time in the holder. A coin in an older holder provides some additional assurance that the coin is stable, and will stay looking the way that it does now.
IMO, this is the single best attribute of a coin in an older holder. >>
I agree. I understand the possibility for an upgrade based on an OGH is much less now than it used to be. I'm still attracted to coins in old green holders.
Timely thread...I just asked one of my favorite dealers if one of the coins on his site (an AU58 OGH) was on target or undergraded. The coin appears to have some strike weakness but I didn't see any actual wear on the high points. It was hard to tell from the photos. Simply because it was in an OGH, I thought it was a nicer coin - even if that means a nicer AU 58 that still would not upgrade. The dealer told me he thought it was a 58 and not uncirculated.
For what it's worth....
–John Adams, 1826
true, but as a rule OGHs still give the perception that they haven't been molested.......
....but I know if I was in the coin-molesting business, I'd stick them ALL in OGHs.........
<< <i>Bottom line: If the coin (OGH or otherwise) is being sold by a knowledgeable seller and is an upgrade candidate, it has already been tried. >>
I have never sent in a coin from an OGH to have it upgraded but have always sold it in the holder. Many collectors love the OGH's and prefer them over a current holder in a higher certified grade.
<< <i>I have had two very recent occasions in which a dealer was trying to sell me a coin in an OGH. In both cases, the dealer spent more time describing the holder than he did describing the coin. Needless to say, I passed on both. >>
You didn't want to hear the story?
BTW L@@K OGH!!!!
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Whenever I see a seller promote a coin with with words "old green holder" in the description (or, heaven forbid, title), I immediately turn on the ryk distrust-o-meter™. The idea that the coin is touted as an upgrade candidate is implicit in these three words. From what I have seen, any experienced seller with a coin in an "old green holder" will upgrade the coin himself/herself if it is a candidate. (The one exception is the 1859 cent that EagleEye sold to Shylock in the older holder, so Shylock could get the upgrade
Exception: Fresh collections that occcasionally come to auction, like the Galveston Collection in the recent ANR sale and the Cincinnati Collection (2005 Heritage FUN). Both of these were gold coin collections that were put together years ago and largely left in the older holders (PCGS green and NGC fatboys) for the sale. As a group, it is easy to get excited about these new-to-market coins. This scenario is played out a couple times each year.
Bottom line: If the coin (OGH or otherwise) is being sold by a knowledgeable seller and is an upgrade candidate, it has already been tried. >>
Most/All of the upgrade candidates in these holders have already been cracked out and re-submitted.
TorinoCobra71
Copper. If it is in an OGH (or older holder period), it is less likely to turn (ie....less likely it was doctored/played with right before slabbing and then that turning in the holder).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Neither necessarily proves originality but at least you know it was properly rinsed after doctoring.
I like OGH's for their look, and for the fact that I generally 'feel' like I am getting a solidly graded coin. I don't crack out, nor care to, and really don't believe I ever get a 'free upgrade' opportunity due to the holder. That all goes into the price...
Sold a couple of ogh type coins at ANA this year. One of them brought 2X bid on the bourse even though it was no guaranteed upgrade. So things can happen any number of ways. And I still have a number of probable upgrade ogh's sitting back in the bank waiting for the right time to either send them back or sell as is.
I like the fact that most people feel ogh's offer little potential. More for me to sift through. And to those who say if it was upgradeable it already would have been tried, I say bull. If that coin is tried and comes back in a newer, same grade holder you probably just lost 10-30% by losing the ogh label. That was the proof that the coin had not been retried recently. And buyers pay less for that. So there is plenty of risk involved in sending your ogh's back. You can have a guaranteed 30% or a pie in the sky 100%, or 0%. Your call.
If it's clear that a seller is not hyping the ogh holder or doesn't even appear to recognize the coin is PQ, then I'll bite. When an established dealer "player" markets such a coin, or says "L@@K, possible upgrade," I rarely if ever procede.
roadrunner
The majority of easily identifiable upgrades (the low hanging fruit) in OGH's have all ready been sent for an upgrade. The remaining coins in OGH's are either accurately graded or have some grade limiting issue that keeps them at the grade that they have been given. Yes, there will be some specimens that are outstanding for the grade (PQ) and certainly have a shot at upgrading but most of the coins that remain in OGH's are what they are.
L@@K "OGH"....L@@K "Upgrade Material"...
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
It's been a decade since this thread was posted. Since then, it appears gradeflation has occurred and thus do the same arguments apply to OGHs being picked over and not upgrade candidates?
I'm curious as to what the collector community thinks (and yes, I know about buying the coin not the plastic). I'm saying generally speaking, does that argument remain generally true?
Wow! Vintage necro-posting!
I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that if OGH is mentioned that it means the coin would not upgrade or has already been attempted via Reconsideration. Please note that when RYK started this thread in 2005 that the Reconsideration option was not yet available to the public.
My inventory currently has five coins that are in OGH holders and all are marked as such in their titles (gasp!). Two of them would have no financial incentive to be regraded and would likely lose liquidity if regraded. These are the proof Jefferson nickel, which CAC agreed on my opinion and awarded a gold sticker to, and the specimen George VI Canadian nickel. A third coin that would likely upgrade is an esoteric, niche market piece that would also see a likely drop in liquidity and this is the specimen Edward VII Newfoundland twenty-cent piece. The other two coins are awfully nice and original, but the spreads in value aren't there to justify the offset in liquidity. They are a VF 1921-D WLH and an EF 1836 RE half dollar.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
It does not matter what you crack and send right now. Had a Rattler 64 go 58 a couple of orders ago!
This does not change the fact that at the point in time that OGH coins were being judged and graded that several sets of eyes agreed on the assessment. Mistakes were definitely made in both ways, however standards were tougher in general then.
If some level of quality photographs do not accompany the auction, I don't care what holder it is in, I wouldn't buy it. I agree with mirabela, when you are searching for a coin, not worthy of upgrading due to the expense, the OGH's might be a more worthy coin than others. While the photo is not the single best comparison to inhand viewing, it is the best you can get when bidding online with strangers. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
10 years later I don't really look at old holders as 'upgrade' candidates (but I don't assume either direction) so much as 'it's been in the same slab and not messed with' and the stability consideration. Now, give me a small ANACS slab and I start wondering about grading...but that's why I look at the coin itself
Interesting old thread to contemplate.
Red copper in OGH or blast white silver in OGH = probably stable.
An cache of coins in OGH from an old collection would be fun to peruse. An isolated coin must always be graded on its own merits irrespective of labels and stickers.
Every time the TPGs have given me an upgrade, the coin that came back was no better than the one I sent in. This hobby has a funny obsession with expert opinions. Just how many appraisals are enough?
When I list coins that are in older holders, I post them as Old Green Holders, OGH, or Rattlers.
The grading/upgrade game isn't something set in stone or black and white. Sometimes I don't think a particular OGH coin is premium quality or an upgrade candidate, but someone else does. Even among the sharpest graders around, one may see a particular coin as PQ, but someone else may not. I know plenty of dealers and collectors alike who have upgraded my coins.
Also, there are cases where a coin is an upgrade candidate, but economics doesn't make it worthwhile. For example, it's easier to sell MS-65 Morgans in old holder for $178-185 on venues like eBay than it is to go through the work to upgrade it to MS-66 and try to sell it for $225-250 in a new holder.
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cyn·i·cism
ˈsinəˌsizəm/Submit
noun
1.
an inclination to believe that people are motivated purely by self-interest; skepticism.
"public cynicism about politics"
synonyms: skepticism, doubt, distrust, mistrust, suspicion, disbelief; More
2.
a school of ancient Greek philosophers, the Cynics.
One thing worth checking is what coins came before and after a given submitted certified PCGS coin.
Like this one that fooled me. http://i.imgur.com/TGfcgO3.jpg
I checked certification numbers before and after, it looks like a group of gold coins were sent in together. PCGS internal records have additional facts and notes. Say a submission turns out to be done by a coin doctor, they can research all the other problem coins they sent in.
Back in 2007 in this thread I made some wise replies. I still agree with myself.
For me the OGH will always be more desirable when it contains an attractive coin, regardless of whether it's maxed out, undergraded, or graded just right.
whoops double posted
What a hot topic. All other things being equal, I'd take an OGH over a new holder simply for stability. Not sure that I'd pay a premium unless the underlying coin is indeed PQ.
Has anyone ever have a dealer make a strong offer on a coin simply because it was in an OGH?