Why all the ICG animosity - Show us your horribly misgraded ICG slabs!

Prethen · July 5, 2005 2:21AM

Yet another ICG thread has popped up with a bunch of naysayers noting that ICG is not a top tier grading service and some would say nowhere near the top. Fine, let's see some of those slabs and the coins within that have been so horribly been miscontrued. At the same time, those that would defend ICG should show similar slab situations from the assumed to be top tier services.

dthigpen · July 5, 2005 2:22AM

Ever watch Home Shopping Network with their 'exclusive' ICG Slabs/Sets? Tee Hee

Prethen · July 5, 2005 2:23AM

<< Ever watch Home Shopping Network with their 'exclusive' ICG Slabs/Sets? Tee Hee >>

And, how about the Shop At Home Network with the scores of 69/70 NGC slabs?

dthigpen · July 5, 2005 2:24AM

<< 

<< Ever watch Home Shopping Network with their 'exclusive' ICG Slabs/Sets? Tee Hee >>

And, how about the Shop At Home Network with the scores of 69/70 NGC slabs? >>

Indeed! Another reason to stay loyal to PCGS and ANACS.

OffMetal · July 5, 2005 2:26AM

Just make sure Cameron dosen't see this thread

BTW, I bought a Washington Quarter (1943?) slabbed MS67
I saw that it had scratches on the reverse when I received it.
It would have been BBed by PCGS and NGC

Ben

Russ · July 5, 2005 2:28AM

Russ, NCNE

DJC · July 5, 2005 2:31AM

<< Ever watch Home Shopping Network with their 'exclusive' ICG Slabs/Sets? Tee Hee >>

<< And, how about the Shop At Home Network with the scores of 69/70 NGC slabs? >>

And the PCGS First Strike SAE's?

Smart marketing decisions aside (and they are), all of the services are guilty of some action us obsessive compulsive, finicky, purist collector-types could rip 'em a new one over. I've seen grossly misgraded coins in ICG, ANACS, NGC and PCGS plastic. Personally, I trust these four for authenticity or alterations, and their grading (to be verified by me, in hand) within a 2-3 point range. All others I have no faith in, will only buy if I can grade it in hand and if I am capable of verifying authenticity myself.

dthigpen · July 5, 2005 2:32AM

dbldie55 · July 5, 2005 2:33AM

<< 

<< Ever watch Home Shopping Network with their 'exclusive' ICG Slabs/Sets? Tee Hee >>

And, how about the Shop At Home Network with the scores of 69/70 NGC slabs? >>

Never looked at the populations of PCGS coins huh? The percent of 70's is higher in NGC, but talking about 69s being easier than PCGS is total BS.

If you were to go directly to the mint and pick up a few hundred thousand coins and send them directly to PCGS, you would get some high grades too.

coinguy1 · July 5, 2005 2:37AM

<< BTW, I bought a Washington Quarter (1943?) slabbed MS67. I saw that it had scratches on the reverse when I received it. >>

Ben, I don't know you, but find that hard to believe. I would bet that either what you thought were scratches were not, and/or that the coin would not be body-bagged.

Prethen, the problem with asking for images to support the notion that the grading is accurate (or inaccurate), is that most of the time you can't decipher what you need to from images. You already knew that though, didn't you?

Russ · July 5, 2005 2:38AM

<< Never looked at the populations of PCGS coins huh? The percent of 70's is higher in NGC, but talking about 69s being easier than PCGS is total BS. >>

A population comparison between the two companies is meaningless. PCGS started grading moderns years before NGC so, of course, the pops for the 69 grade will be higher.

Russ, NCNE

Prethen · July 5, 2005 2:42AM

<< 

<< BTW, I bought a Washington Quarter (1943?) slabbed MS67. I saw that it had scratches on the reverse when I received it. >>

Ben, I don't know you, but find that hard to believe. I would bet that either what you thought were scratches were not, and/or that the coin would not be body-bagged.

Prethen, the problem with asking for images to support the notion that the grading is accurate (or inaccurate), is that most of the time you can't decipher what you need to from images. You already knew that though, didn't you?

>>

Well, not entirely true. I've seen slabs pictured on here where the service seemed to "miss" something that even the owner acknowledged. If the've so agregiously and obviously overgraded material, then, Yes, I do believe it's possible for a picture to show the evidence in many cases.

IrishMike · July 5, 2005 2:44AM

<< 

<< BTW, I bought a Washington Quarter (1943?) slabbed MS67. I saw that it had scratches on the reverse when I received it. >>

Ben, I don't know you, but find that hard to believe. I would bet that either what you thought were scratches were not, and/or that the coin would not be body-bagged.

Prethen, the problem with asking for images to support the notion that the grading is accurate (or inaccurate), is that most of the time you can't decipher what you need to from images. You already knew that though, didn't you?

>>

Hi Mark, I bought a 1939 Washington at auction graded MS66 by ICG, it was bodybagged by both NGC and PCGS for a planchet flaw. No biggie as I like the coin.

coinguy1 · July 5, 2005 3:07AM

<< Hi Mark, I bought a 1939 Washington at auction graded MS66 by ICG, it was bodybagged by both NGC and PCGS for a planchet flaw. No biggie as I like the coin. >>

Mike, close but no cigar. I think that there is a big difference between scratches on an MS67 and a planchet flaw on a 66.

<< Prethen, the problem with asking for images to support the notion that the grading is accurate (or inaccurate), is that most of the time you can't decipher what you need to from images. You already knew that though, didn't you? >>

<< Well, not entirely true. I've seen slabs pictured on here where the service seemed to "miss" something that even the owner acknowledged. If the've so agregiously and obviously overgraded material, then, Yes, I do believe it's possible for a picture to show the evidence in many cases. >>

Prethen, my comment included the phrase "most of the time" and I will stand by that. Also, while images might make it appear that the grading company "missed something", it's possible that the images unfairly magnified the flaw(s). Conversely, in the cases where coins appear to be under-graded or correctly graded, the images are often hiding flaws, such as hairlines.

Bottom line - as I've said many times before here: No one, no matter how expert, can consistently grade accurately from images.

Craton · July 5, 2005 3:12AM

<<

>>

Good lord! Does ICG only have two graders? I see Cam and Walt Armitage listed as the only two graders on their "team".

Prethen · July 5, 2005 3:13AM

<< Bottom line - as I've said many times before here: No one, no matter how expert, can consistently grade accurately from images. >>

I grant you that you're statement is largely correct. However, there is some fantastic photography done that's evident on this site. All I'm asking is, if you're going to condemn or single out a single grading service, such as ICG, back it up!

Craton · July 5, 2005 3:14AM

<< 

<< Bottom line - as I've said many times before here: No one, no matter how expert, can consistently grade accurately from images. >>

I grant you that you're statement is largely correct. However, there is some fantastic photography done that's evident on this site. All I'm asking is, if you're going to condemn or single out a single grading service, such as ICG, back it up! >>

I agree and for the record, the only problem that I have with ICG is that they just aren't as market acceptable as PCGS and NGC. It's pretty sad really but that's the way it is.

INXS · July 5, 2005 3:18AM

The only issue I have with ICG is they do not relesae their POP reports. They have them, I believe, they just do not make them public.

chloebess · July 5, 2005 3:31AM

I only need to know ICG by the "company it keeps".

It may not be their choice but I am aware of firms that "hype" coins from ICG and sell them at ridiculous prices to new collectors who don't know any better. These are, admittedly, moderns but personally I find it hard to overlook these practices.

coinguy1 · July 5, 2005 3:40AM

<< I only need to know ICG by the "company it keeps".It may not be their choice but I am aware of firms that "hype" coins from ICG and sell them at ridiculous prices to new collectors who don't know any better. These are, admittedly, moderns but personally I find it hard to overlook these practices. >>

Chloebess, do you feel the same about NGC and its (Shop at Home) company?

Merc · July 5, 2005 3:41AM

Hmm, ICG graded this coin a F15. I would not call it overgraded.

Justhavingfun · July 5, 2005 4:02AM

Why all the ICG animosity?

Hello Prethen:

I feel no animosity towards ICG; to me, they're not one of the sleaze-bag independent grading services.

But I got badly burned buying "high-grade" Jefferson proof nickels in ICG slabs on Teletrade. I was in Asia, and had the coins sent to my US office. When I returned to the states, I examined maybe a dozen in one sitting, and sorry, but I didn't find a single coin that I felt came to NGC or PCGS standards. In my opinion they were not the Proof 69s and 70s as the certs read. But rather they were 67s and 68s.

Unfortunately I can't show you the coins because I gave them away as birthday presents, etc., to the friends of my kids. That's how poorly graded I thought they were.

In any case, that was the end of ICG for me. Since then, I've steered clear of ICG holders except sight seen. Which, since I've been living in Asia and am generally unable to buy sight seen, means I've only bought one ICG-slabbed coin in many, many moons.

That coin was a BEAUTIFUL Standing Liberty Quarter, 1924, ICG MS69. It was a beaut, but it wasn't a 69. The dealer was clear it wasn't a true MS69, but had a shot to cross into a PCGS MS68 slab. Since that was an upgrade for me, amd since it was priced at PCGS MS67/68 levels, I bought it anyway in the hope that it would cross no lower than MS68. I was lucky; I got the MS68 and was happy.

But it's ICG that suffers the consequences of grading to a lower standard; not me. By doing that, they've consigned their coins to second-tier pricing, and wiped themselves out of the sight-unseen market. The junk television market -- which I've never seen by the way -- seems like the only big market still open to them.

Maybe their standards will come up. You seem to thank they have. I hope you're right. If you are, I'll start seeing that in the sight unseen market, where ICG slabs will stop selling for 1/4 to 1/2 the price for an equivalent coin in a PCGS slab, and start going for 90% of the PCGS price. But I don't think that hasn't happened yet.

Best wishes to ICG and you,

Just Having Fun

chloebess · July 5, 2005 4:04AM

Coinguy: I didn't know about the NGC thing. I am personally familiar with ICG because a set of ICG graded ASE's were sold to my friend for 3-4 times their retail value.

If you are making the point that you can't judge a grader because their coins get inappropriately hyped then I can accept that. However, this is just my limited experience, I have seen ICG's coins at the center of this more than just the time I personally became involved with my friend's situation.

If I need some education on ICG quality then I stand ready to receive it.

To the question at hand I cannot say the coins were overgraded, although there are cetainly a lot of highly graded ICG moderns out there.

Can someone "vouch" for ICG's standards when compared to others?

Russ · July 5, 2005 4:22AM

<< But I got badly burned buying "high-grade" Jefferson proof nickels in ICG slabs on Teletrade. I was in Asia, and had the coins sent to my US office. When I returned to the states, I examined maybe a dozen in one sitting, and sorry, but I didn't find a single coin that I felt came to NGC or PCGS standards. In my opinion they were not the Proof 69s and 70s as the certs read. But rather they were 67s and 68s. >>

It's the same thing with any ICG graded modern series. They overgrade them by a couple points and pass out the CAM and DCAM designations to coins that don't deserve it.

Anybody who has purchased more than a couple of their coins knows this to be true.

Russ, NCNE

INXS · July 5, 2005 4:40AM

Why is everyone getting worked up? Buy the coin not the plastic, if you pay top dollar for a coin in any holder that is overgraded its not the TPG companies problem. Its one, your problem for not being educated and two, the middle man($$), as no grading service sells coins directly. As for being a newbie everyone is one at one time but if they are out there buying high end coins they had better know what they are looking for and be able to tell the diffrence between a MS67 and a MS70 coin if not they deserve what they get.

chloebess · July 5, 2005 4:45AM

<< Why is everyone getting worked up? Buy the coin not the plastic, if you pay top dollar for a coin in any holder that is overgraded its not the TPG companies problem. Its one, your problem for not being educated and two, the middle man($$), as no grading service sells coins directly. As for being a newbie everyone is one at one time but if they are out there buying high end coins they had better know what they are looking for and be able to tell the diffrence between a MS67 and a MS70 coin if not they deserve what they get. >>

I am not worked up I was just trying to my two cents worth in. As usual, all its worth is two cents.

The original question was a good one, though, and it is important to have a feel for where each grading service stands when it comes to their standards.

Russ · July 5, 2005 4:50AM

<< Buy the coin not the plastic >>

That's a nice little homily, but in reality most coin sales are done sight unseen. So, we can repeat "buy the coin" until the cows come home but it really serves little purpose other than to make the newbies who get stiffed feel like idiots.

Russ, NCNE

TorinoCobra71 · July 5, 2005 4:51AM

is that kennedy now in a PCGS holder, RUSS ??

TorinoCobra71

Russ · July 5, 2005 4:53AM

<< is that kennedy now in a PCGS holder, RUSS ?? >>

Yes, at a point lower.

Russ, NCNE

XpipedreamR · July 5, 2005 4:55AM

I have an ICG coin horribly misgraded by one point. I liked it, though, so I kept it

TommyType · July 5, 2005 5:04AM

For your average "collector coins", I don't have any problem with ICG at all.

In fact, I have about 8 MS-63 3-cent nickels graded MS-63 by various companies. One is in an ICG holder.

If I were to pick the ONE coin of the bunch with a shot at upgrading to MS-64, the ICG coin would be the one.

On the other hand, I do dislike their modern grading:

Added: (Disclaimer) A wise forum member pointed out to me that the * designation probably indicates the NGC coin is obverse DCAM, so the comparison isn't fair. On the other hand, I've never been happy with the ICG coin's overall look, or it's designation as a CAM. That's why I upgraded.

INXS · July 5, 2005 6:03AM

<< 

<< Buy the coin not the plastic >>

That's a nice little homily, but in reality most coin sales are done sight unseen. So, we can repeat "buy the coin" until the cows come home but it really serves little purpose other than to make the newbies who get stiffed feel like idiots.

Russ, NCNE >>

Not really a homily but a lesson learned the hard way for not being educated and not knowing how to grade, not that I do now, but at least its something. My point was if the person is thinking of buying High end coins then they had better do their homework and know what they will get as an MS70 for each TPG.

ss350camaro · July 5, 2005 6:17AM

<< 

<< 

<< Ever watch Home Shopping Network with their 'exclusive' ICG Slabs/Sets? Tee Hee >>

And, how about the Shop At Home Network with the scores of 69/70 NGC slabs? >>

Indeed! Another reason to stay loyal to PCGS and ANACS. >>

HSN also sells PCGS slabbed coins.

These were on the other night in PCGS slabs.

dthigpen · July 5, 2005 6:19AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Ever watch Home Shopping Network with their 'exclusive' ICG Slabs/Sets? Tee Hee >>

And, how about the Shop At Home Network with the scores of 69/70 NGC slabs? >>

Indeed! Another reason to stay loyal to PCGS and ANACS. >>

HSN also sells PCGS slabbed coins. >>

I do not believe they have exclusive co-marketing agreements with them (I could be wrong).

ss350camaro · July 5, 2005 6:21AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Ever watch Home Shopping Network with their 'exclusive' ICG Slabs/Sets? Tee Hee >>

And, how about the Shop At Home Network with the scores of 69/70 NGC slabs? >>

Indeed! Another reason to stay loyal to PCGS and ANACS. >>

HSN also sells PCGS slabbed coins. >>

I do not believe they have exclusive co-marketing agreements with them (I could be wrong). >>

I now nothing about any agreements but have seen PCGS slabs for sale on HSN.

These were on the other night in PCGS slabs.

Russ · July 5, 2005 6:25AM

All of the TV Coin Carnivals occasionally offer PCGS material.

Russ, NCNE

millennium · July 5, 2005 6:33AM

Pr 70...yea right....

coinguy1 · July 5, 2005 6:37AM

<< Pr 70...yea right.... >>

That coin probably developed those imperfections after being encapsulated, just as PCGS and NGC coins sometimes do.

If you are going to criticize the grading, which you are welcome to do, please at least be fair/even-handed about it.

Baley · July 5, 2005 6:39AM

My icon coin is encapsulated by ICG

jdimmick · July 5, 2005 6:51AM

I just spent the last two hours looking thru a local dealers slabbed Inventory. He is a buy all guy and doesnt know how to grade himself, so thier is no bias to the holders he has in stock or has purchased. Included were Morgans, Washington quarters, Latter date proof Lincolns, Jeff's, roosey's and a few Halves. I was looking for potential upgrade/crack out canadates. Only found one potential Morgan in an old NGC thick holder. But what I clearly saw was the ICG graded coins were an avg of 1point to occasionally 2 points overgraded compared to the NGC /PCGS counterparts. Many of the same dates were in both brand holders in the same grade, so it was actually easier for comparison. It was probably most evident in the washington quarter sereis and later date proof Jeff's and Halves.

jim

mozin · July 5, 2005 8:02AM

<< Yet another ICG thread has popped up with a bunch of naysayers noting that ICG is not a top tier grading service and some would say nowhere near the top. Fine, let's see some of those slabs and the coins within that have been so horribly been miscontrued. At the same time, those that would defend ICG should show similar slab situations from the assumed to be top tier services. >>

Why would I buy an overgraded ICG coin, just so I could show it here on the forum?

markglicker · July 5, 2005 8:06AM

When I started in the coin business, I was buying MS-70 ICG graded $10 gold Eagles by the carload, at a small premium to MS 69. Not a lot of discrimination in the high grades.

BillJones · July 5, 2005 8:14AM

<< Why all the ICG animosity - Show us your horribly misgraded ICG slabs! >>

This is kind of tough to do. Why would I purchase an overgraded ICG coin so that I could show here as an example of their consistancy problems?

The trouble with ICG is that one must buy their properly graded coins at a discount because you can't sell them for the same prices as their properly graded PCGS, NGC and to a lesser extent ANACS graded products.

You can beat the drum for ICG all you want, but the company dug a hole for itself early on, and recovering from that will be like rising from the dead. They are in the second tier of grading services, and that's were they are destined to stay.

CalGold · July 5, 2005 8:51AM

Got to agree with Bill Jones. There is no reason for anyone to send them premium quality coins of any value. And if they started grading to the same exact standard as PCGS, would that help or hurt their business? Why send off coins to be tightly graded by them if the coin would sell for less money than in a PCGS holder?

CG

Myqqy · July 5, 2005 9:00AM

but the company dug a hole for itself early on, and recovering from that will be like rising from the dead

This fact is why I laughed at many comments that were made on this board after cammie kief was hired by icg- I saw many comments about his hiring hopefully lifting the stature of icg in the coin community. I'm not sure if anything will help to bring back icg's good reputation- coin collectors and dealers seem to stick to their opinions about grading companies once they make them....

BillJones · July 5, 2005 9:17AM

The sad fact is the overgraded ICG coins get sold in ICG holders. The undergraded and properly graded ICG coins often get cracked out and sent to PCGS and NGC. ICG just can't win. If they put out an inferior product it confirms many people's attitudes. If they put out a good product, it ends up in the other guy's holders.

stev32k · July 5, 2005 9:36AM

" The sad fact is the overgraded ICG coins get sold in ICG holders. The undergraded and properly graded ICG coins often get cracked out and sent to PCGS and NGC. ICG just can't win. If they put out an inferior product it confirms many people's attitudes. If they put out a good product, it ends up in the other guy's holders."

I think that is a very good observation, and I believe it also holds true for ANACS, SEGS, and maybe even ACG. If any of these guys correctly grade say an MS66 it is going to end up in either a PCGS or NGC slab. That's a tough hill they have to climb. If it's correctly graded it goes in another slab, if it's overgraded they get slammed as being just another third tier grading company.

BillJones · July 5, 2005 10:39AM

When ICG opened several years ago, I had really high hopes for the company. They started out with a really first rate ad campaign that stressed honest, independent grading (e.g. No one on our staff knows WHO as submitted the coins.) AND the first coins they put on the market were properly graded. It would be the advantage of collectors and small to medium sized dealers if there were four or five really good grading companies. That way they could keep each other honest.

Unfortunately ICG ran into one big problem that was beyond their control, and then they shot themselves in the foot with their own lax standards.

The situation that was beyond their control was a concerted effort by at least one major dealer, who had a vested interest in keeping PCGS and NGC on top, to talk down the ICG product. If ICG had faced ONLY that they still might have succeeded ... BUT

ICG put out some coins that were obviously misattributed. For example I saw a 1795 dollar that was obviously the three leaf variety that they labeled as the two leaf variety. On another occasion I saw a very low grade Bust Half Dollar that they attributed as a very rare Overton variety, which would have been worth over $1,000. Unfortunately it turned out to be a very common Overton number that was worth all of $15. Errors like that really hurt the company’s credibility.

THEN ICG let their grading standards slip, and it was all downhill from there.

Like I said, I’d love to ICG become a top grading company, but they blew their chance. In the grading business, you get only one chance if that because so many collectors are so stuck in their ways. Just look at the people here who won’t look at anything but PCGS graded coins. It makes hard for anyone else to make any inroads.

CoastGuard · July 5, 2005 12:23PM

You shouldn't be angry at ICG or any other service when their high grade moderns are selling on TV. The coin owner and seller is a marketing firm in a seperate business and not the TPG itself. The contracts of the four major graders (ICG, NGC, PCGS, ANACS) do not contain a clause that states "you are not allowed to sell our graded coins on TV". Perhaps the harsh words on ICG could be coming from the dealers who have ownership interest in the big two? ICG, to remain independent and consistent, does not allow coin dealer ownership. Another reason could be they are gaining on the big two and the threat is real, so someone pops off trying to hurt them. The Greysheet coin dealer newsletter does not use emotion, or feelings in its rankings like many posters here have done. Just the raw math shows the Greysheet consistently ranks ICG #1 or #2 for the best sight unseen bid levels. ICG is growing and the collector community and some dealers that respect the concept of an independent, no influence, consistent style are using their service.

Justhavingfun · July 5, 2005 3:59PM

Good for you, Man of Coins! With honest descriptions like that, I'd buy from you any time!

-----

Why is everyone getting worked up? Buy the coin not the plastic

Hello INXS and Prethen: Why do you keep on talking about "animosity" and "worked up"? I thought you asked for genuine input -- and were getting it. It doesn't do any good to put down the people who don't like ICG's grading. That's a intellectual cop out. Instead, just deal with their ideas, plain and simple. It's the ideas that count.

For myself, the Proof Jefferson Nickels I bought were an inexpensive test of ICG. I saw that, in my opinion, ICG was systematically grading to a lower standard than PCGS, NGC, and ANACS (which I think grades better than its reputation).
That was a great lesson for me.

My losses from this debacle were minor league, and money well spent. It taught me that I could not buy ICG slabs sight unseen.

To judge from the comments on this thread, many other good buyers -- collectors that presumably ICG would love to have for their slabs -- have made the same decision. And they've had to. That so called Proof 70 penny from ICG that Millennium posted is in my opinion shameful. Ditto for the Washington Quarter that Man of Coins posted. Coins like these are in my opinion why -- in the sight unseen market -- ICGS slabs often sell for 1/4 to 1/2 the values of the corresponding PCGS slabs.

Said another way, by grading to a significantly lower standard than NGC and PCGS, ICG has effectively wiped themselves out of the sight-unseen market.

This is feedback that I would think ICG would appreciate getting.

Heck, the people at ICG could take the critiques in this thread and use them to turn around their business around, from a third-world grading service to a top notch one. But you're fighting it rather than listening. It's like Yul Brynner said in "The King and I" -- "They'll fight; they'll fight; to prove what they do not know is so."

There is great meat here for the management of ICG to work with. If I were running a business and got this feed back from potential customers, I take these critiques to heart -- rather than slamming them with ad hominem. This thread is a blue print for ICG to use to pull its grading service up.

And if I may make one more suggestion, ICG could even punctuate the upgraded service by changing the colors of their inserts. So the new color would mean the new standards. If they wanted to continue to grade the moderns to substandard levels, because the money was too good to pass up, I understand. But then I'd suggest using the old color certs for the modern coins and use the new color certs for the classics. That way, serious collectors would soon know that when they saw a new-color ICG slab, they could count on it as much as an ANACS, NGC, or PCGS slab.

Best wishes to you and ICG

Just Having Fun!

ibzman350 · July 5, 2005 9:41PM

<<Good for you, Man of Coins! With honest descriptions like that, I'd buy from you any time!>>

Yes indeed, I'll be checking out you auctions more often.

A breath of fresh air in the fowl quagmire we all know as ebay!! <---------Did I just type that.

Herb

Why all the ICG animosity - Show us your horribly misgraded ICG slabs!

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