My thoughts on 'name calling'

Neptune · June 28, 2005 2:40AM

The following letter was recently sent to a couple of coin news "papers". In case it doesn't run and I doubt it will - I wanted to post my thought and opinion here. For those who don't agree - that's fine too. Let's just not get childish or nasty about it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and this is just mine:

==========================================

Dear Editor:

It seems that 'some' people prefer error coins to be described by their 'technical data' than by a descriptive term. I would like to rebute this argument in stating the following. First, new collector's (and especially non-error collectors) do not know what technicality caused such error so they call it by what it "looks like" and what comes to mind. Describing a new found error on a coin "a long technical descriptive term" is just not "in the books" for those who don't know the error coin world "jargon".

Those that rebute a coin because a 'newbie' calls it by it's physical attributes vs. technical jargon is so outright silly that it's ridiculous. Not only does this discourage a new collector, but it is also just not necessary. There are experts in every field - not just coins. I don't think those whom are more knowledgeable in the coin industry should be so elitest in knocking how unlearned error collectors describe new finds. Common nicknames are given in every industry, not just the 'Coin World'.

For instance - what would the error experts have people call the 3-legged buffalo nickel? Some "long technical data named" buffalo instead? The world and people do not communicate like that, especially in today's world of the internet abbreviations and "now". People like to communicate quickly and get to the point. People like to have fun with hobbies.

What about the "Speared" Bison nickel. Should it instead be called "so many millimeter line starting at E and running southward through Bisons' back almost to mound area caused by blah blah blah". Get real! Some people don't even care or want to know what caused it. I don't agree with not wanting to educate yourself, but some people are like that. Some just prefer to collect, and not learn. Other's prefer to learn and collect. Others prefer to just learn.

It is not for one collector, dealer, writer, editor, etc., etc. to decide how another person collects or what they call their coins. Those with more knowledge in coins should not be so condescending towards calling coins by nicknames. Nor is it up to any person to decide how much a person should pay for any coin. Sure it is wise to know what you are buying and it's value before you purchase an item . . . again in any field. But for some folks to attempt to disvalue an item or coin BEFORE a market has even been established on a new find is ridiculous. The public and market will decide it's value - not an envioius coin dealer who was left out of the mix.

There is one point that I agree on - and that is 'hyping' of coins. Nobody likes to go to eBay and see any coin 'hyped' for that matter. By saying "LQQK" or "coin could be more valuable than <insert name> - that is hype. How about "from estate.". Or how about PQ, star, gem, etc. It seems there is a 'fine line' between describing of a coin when selling it - and hyping. Most honest folks will know where that fine line is and stop at that point. But, unfortunately, there will always be "hypers" and "Shysters" on eBay as in the real world and EVERY industry/profession. Describing a coin by what it looks like alone, though, is not "hype".

Hype is the promoting of something in a sensational manner. Calling a coin by it's physical looks may be 'mislabeling', but it is not 'hype. Those who disagree should read their Webster's dictionary.

I also think that by putting names on holders, it makes coin collecting more "fun", and attracts more people who are either not smart enough to know technical data and/or who just prefer to describe coins by what they look like. I think the more knowledgeable error collectors should quit being so darn elitest with the new collectors. After all it's supposed to be fun, right?

Sincerely,
PSR

Edited to add: Personally, I LOVE knowledge.

seanq · June 28, 2005 2:50AM

You finally convinced me, Neptune. This hobby definitely needs more willfully uneducated, trend-chasing, profiteering newbies. I'll enclose a copy of your letter with my resignation from the CONECA board.

Sean Reynolds

dbldie55 · June 28, 2005 2:57AM

<< You finally convinced me, Neptune. This hobby definitely needs more willfully uneducated, trend-chasing, profiteering newbies. I'll enclose a copy of your letter with my resignation from the CONECA board.

Sean Reynolds >>

You mean that isn't what the hobby is all about!

cladking · June 28, 2005 3:05AM

I agree with the gist of the letter and most all of your points but there is more to
the opposing argument than mere terminology. Certainly we should all collect what
we find interesting and no one should be told he's doing it wrong since it's impossible
to do it wrong if you're having fun or learning something.

The problem with all the named errors is that they are like a comet. The ones with
the catchiest names will burn brightest but then they are gone to perhaps never re-
appear. Some of these will almost certainly stand the test of time due to their nature
or even their timing. Varieties like the up or down leaf WI quarters can stand on their
own regardless of what nickname is used. Some varieties catch on that are really ra-
ther insignificant and this has always been the case, but nmost of the coins with catchy
names and little import will be forgotten in a few years and their premiums will evap-
orate. It is largely this fact that many experts are warning about. If you want to collect
these then great and perhaps the winners will more than make up for the losers. If you
are having fun or collecting these cheaply then perhaps it doesn't really matter what hap-
pens to prices in the future. Simply be aware that many such coins will not stand the test
of time.

Neptune · June 28, 2005 3:11AM

seanq -

There are: willfully uneducated, trend-chasing, profiteering newbies in EVERY field - not just coins. That's what I am trying to say. Calling a coin a "bald bison", for example, is not being a; willfully uneducated, trend-chasing, profiteering newbie.

Instead it would be a 'mislabeled' coin. Not hyping.

Why don't you take the time to explain yourself instead of just using sarcasm. I respect those with more knowledge than myself and would like to learn more, but it seems that 'some' folks would just rather take the easy way out. Instead of trying to educate, they would rather condescend and be sarcastic. That accomplishes nothing.

Edited to add: CK - I agree an understand what you are saying - but this part says it all:

Varieties like the up or down leaf WI quarters can stand on their
own regardless of what nickname is used.

RYK · June 28, 2005 3:20AM

I have never been a fan of the speared bison SB), but I nonetheless laud your well-conceived letter. Admittedly, if I had been the one making the money on it, I would have been a lot more excited about it. I tend to agree with Cladking's summary. Only time will tell if this remains a popular or forgotten anomaly. I am not sure if your continuing to promote it will influence the long term trajectory of the SB, but it probably cannot hurt.

oreville · June 28, 2005 3:25AM

I remember the early 1970's well. The same thing happened.

The Athiest cent of 1970-S and the 1972/72 DDO. Some thought the Athiest was going to be a bigger discovery than the 1972 DDO at the time. The opposite has ocurred in which it is difficult to determine what varieties or errors would stand the test of time.

It should be a period of great wonder and discovery, not a period of bitterness and anger. Only time will tell what discoveries stand the test of time and grow in fame.

Coin collecting can be exciting!

Artist · June 28, 2005 3:45AM

The brightest commets do have names, or to provide a better anology, so do the most relevant stars. And so I beleive it should be with errors.

"Struck 20% Off Center," "35% Planchet Clip, or "SBA Struck On Golden Dollar Planchet" are fine ways to denote one-off errors for the people who collect such varieties. If they were stars, these coins might have names like "NSZ-14225-B," and they would only be visable on perfectly clear, moonless nights from mountain tops in a Alaska.

On the other hand, "3-Legged Buffalo," "Extra-Leaf," and "Speared Bison," might be more appropriate names for errors that do possess some allegorical qualities and where multiple examples do exist given that such issues are not only appealing to error collectors but to people who collect by series as well. If these coins were stars, they might have names like Polaris or Andromeda.

Frankly, I do not understand the opinion that such varieties will burn away into obscurity. Despite similiar rhetoric twenty years ago, the 1983 and 1984 double die Lincolns remain popular, and so why won't these new varieties? So long as there is a hole for them in the Whitman Folder, a line for them in The Red Book, or requirement for them in The PCGS Registry Program, they will be collected.

RYK · June 28, 2005 3:49AM

Despite similiar rhetoric twenty years ago, the 1983 and 1984 double die Lincolns remain popular, and so why won't these new varieties?

I have never heard of the 1983 and 1984 DDs 1c. I have heard of the 3-legged buffalo nickel. There are various degrees of popularity.

seanq · June 28, 2005 4:02AM

<< seanq -

There are: willfully uneducated, trend-chasing, profiteering newbies in EVERY field - not just coins. That's what I am trying to say. Calling a coin a "bald bison", for example, is not being a; willfully uneducated, trend-chasing, profiteering newbie.

Instead it would be a 'mislabeled' coin. Not hyping. >>

I don't get your point here at all. "Mislabeled" how, exactly? If I wrote enough posts, ran enough auctions, and convinced someone at ANACS that the buffalo really is bald and they should point that out on their insert, does it then become an exciting new discovery?

<< 
Why don't you take the time to explain yourself instead of just using sarcasm. I respect those with more knowledge than myself and would like to learn more, but it seems that 'some' folks would just rather take the easy way out. Instead of trying to educate, they would rather condescend and be sarcastic. That accomplishes nothing. >>

What more is there to educate, it's an abraded die, common as dirt. Look how many other Wisconsin quarters appeared on eBay with similar markings in less fortuitous locations. Look how many eBay auctions there are for other Bison nickels with the "spear" in a less lucrative area. PCGS bought into the hype (and it is hype that got these coins noticed, don't kid yourself) and suddenly it's a collectible. These coins are Pissing Minutemen with better PR.

<< Edited to add: CK - I agree an understand what you are saying - but this part says it all:

Varieties like the up or down leaf WI quarters can stand on their
own regardless of what nickname is used. >>

In the beginning the WI quarters were the ultimate one-way market, it was only PCGS' misguided decision to recognize these abrasions as an important die variety that is propping up the market for these coins. Go ask some of the dealers who were aggressively marketing those coins at the outset for their current buy prices. Here's the part of *your* post that, to me, says it all:

"But for some folks to attempt to disvalue an item or coin BEFORE a market has even been established on a new find is ridiculous. The public and market will decide it's value - not an envioius coin dealer who was left out of the mix."

Show me one person, just one, who is a strong proponent of these coins and either didn't participate in their discovery, or doesn't have a strong financial stake in their acceptance (or already made a tidy profit from them). Honestly, Neptune, you need to stop wasting your time trying to convince the "establishment" that they should accept the Speared Bison and just cash your checks.

Sean Reynolds

(IMPORTANT FOOTNOTE: The opinions above are mine alone and not those of any organizations with which I am affiliated.)

Shamika · June 28, 2005 4:05AM

<< For instance - what would the error experts have people call the 3-legged buffalo nickel? >>

The correct term is "3-legged Indian Head Nickel".

MS70ORBUST · June 28, 2005 4:16AM

<< Admittedly, if I had been the one making the money on it, I would have been a lot more excited about it. >>

Great line, If this coin was worth $5, then you would never hear of it again, but you get people paying $1600 for a MS66, more money than ?????. My bet is that it will never appreciate beyond that price. It has been good to get people interested in collecting, but it will be a memory in the near future.

All error coins had to be discovered and named by someone, so give this person credit for this interesting find.

wayneherndon · June 28, 2005 4:30AM

If you sent it to NN and CW, I suspect at least one will publish it provided you did not send it anonymously.

WH

Neptune · June 28, 2005 4:33AM

<< seanq -

There are: willfully uneducated, trend-chasing, profiteering newbies in EVERY field - not just coins. That's what I am trying to say. Calling a coin a "bald bison", for example, is not being a; willfully uneducated, trend-chasing, profiteering newbie.

Instead it would be a 'mislabeled' coin. Not hyping. >>

I don't get your point here at all. "Mislabeled" how, exactly? If I wrote enough posts, ran enough auctions, and convinced someone at ANACS that the buffalo really is bald and they should point that out on their insert, does it then become an exciting new discovery?

Not sure why you would need to 'convince' anyone that a bison is bald. If it's a 'bald bison' what is wrong with calling it that. An apple is an apple - so why not call it an apple. (I am not attempting to promote anything, including the SB - but only am trying to understand 'some' folks ideology on nicknaming coins. SB was used an example only. You can use the high leaf WI if you wish.)
Mislabeled would be only , according to "the establishment" because they don't want coins called by 'descriptive terms' . . . only by 'technical jargon'. Instead of calling it 'mislabeled' - they call it hyped. NOT everyone who calls a coin by 'descriptive terms' is HYPING said/example coin!

<<
Why don't you take the time to explain yourself instead of just using sarcasm. I respect those with more knowledge than myself and would like to learn more, but it seems that 'some' folks would just rather take the easy way out. Instead of trying to educate, they would rather condescend and be sarcastic. That accomplishes nothing. >>

What more is there to educate, it's an abraded die, common as dirt. Look how many other Wisconsin quarters appeared on eBay with similar markings in less fortuitous locations. Look how many eBay auctions there are for other Bison nickels with the "spear" in a less lucrative area. PCGS bought into the hype (and it is hype that got these coins noticed, don't kid yourself) and suddenly it's a collectible. These coins are Pissing Minutemen with better PR.

thanks for the offhanded compliment.

As example, I have never heard the term 'abraded die' before. I am not an error collector and have no clue what it means - BUT I will find out now that I have heard the term. I don't see why your feathers are so ruffled.

<< Edited to add: CK - I agree an understand what you are saying - but this part says it all:

Varieties like the up or down leaf WI quarters can stand on their
own regardless of what nickname is used. >>

In the beginning the WI quarters were the ultimate one-way market, it was only PCGS' misguided decision to recognize these abrasions as an important die variety that is propping up the market for these coins. Go ask some of the dealers who were aggressively marketing those coins at the outset for their current buy prices. Here's the part of *your* post that, to me, says it all:

"But for some folks to attempt to disvalue an item or coin BEFORE a market has even been established on a new find is ridiculous. The public and market will decide it's value - not an envioius coin dealer who was left out of the mix."

Show me one person, just one, who is a strong proponent of these coins and either didn't participate in their discovery, or doesn't have a strong financial stake in their acceptance (or already made a tidy profit from them). Honestly, Neptune, you need to stop wasting your time trying to convince the "establishment" that they should accept the Speared Bison and just cash your checks.

LOL on 'establishment'. And again, this post was not to promote the SB, as I am not even selling any right now. LJ from forum just sold 3 of them for approx. 4500, as have others on their 66's. As far as proponents, you can go to eBay past auctions and enter this: "speared bison" -foot, and see for yourself who proponents are. You may find something interesting there too, as a few of our forum members here have purchased quite a few of them - dealers included. There is one person in particular who is trying to buy all of the highest grades secretely to 'hoard them', so they say, using 'several' eBay usernames. The SB will go up and down in value as a LOT of coins do - so what? As far as cashing checks, I prefer PP or MO - but thank you.

Edited to add: Letter was sent with my full name. Oh and here's the 'apple'. I would think this is indeed, a somewhat BU, but cranky old bald-headed bison.

Maybe even SB's 'Papa'.

lathmach · June 28, 2005 4:46AM

Are you talking about the "Skewered" buffalo nickel?

Ray

19Lyds · June 28, 2005 4:54AM

<< Show me one person, just one, who is a strong proponent of these coins and either didn't participate in their discovery, or doesn't have a strong financial stake in their acceptance (or already made a tidy profit from them). Honestly, Neptune, you need to stop wasting your time trying to convince the "establishment" that they should accept the Speared Bison and just cash your checks. >>

Seanq, I did not participate in this discovery nor do I have a strong financial stake in the coin but I strongly believe that it has a relevent position in the coin collecting field. I place it right up there with my 72/72 and my Wisconsin Leaf error's. The why's or the wherefore are totally unimportant to me. I have them because I wanted them.

bushmaster8 · June 28, 2005 4:59AM

<< 

<< For instance - what would the error experts have people call the 3-legged buffalo nickel? >>

The correct term is "3-legged Indian Head Nickel".

>>

Well, shame on you Shamika! The correct terminology would be "Physically Handicapped Native American Five Cent".

PS... It's a good letter Neptune.

RYK · June 28, 2005 5:01AM

What percent of SBs get sold to collectors on ebay (versus coin shows, Coin World ads, auctions, national dealers, etc.) and does this speak to the future prospects of the coin?

seanq · June 28, 2005 5:06AM

I give up. There are always going to be people who choose a new car because of what they read in 'Consumer Reports,' and there will always be others who choose a new car because the name is cool and they like the hood ornament. I know which type of consumer/collector I want to be, and would advocate others to be, but to each his (or her) own. There's enough rancor around here already.

Sean Reynolds

Neptune · June 28, 2005 5:08AM

RYK - Good question. To my knowledge a few have been sold to a few dealers - including, but not limited to eBay only dealers, but I really can't say what everyone else is doing with theirs. I don't frequent the auction houses because I don't like paying 'juice', but there is an article on the Heritage website

Possibly someone who frequents a lot of coin shows can answer that question. There are not many in my area, and do not travel much.

edited to add: I bought a light turquoise sky blue firebird once. It may have been called a Skybird - don't remember. I didn't care WHAT the name was - I liked it! I HAD to have that car because the color was so pretty. I liked the style as well as color. I bought it, owned it, drove it. Later it lost value, and I moved on and got a van because my interest had changed. Some autos do retain better trade-in value tho.

RYK · June 28, 2005 5:22AM

edited to add: I bought a light turquoise sky blue firebird once. It may have been called a Skybird - don't remember. I didn't care WHAT the name was - I liked it! I HAD to have that car because the color was so pretty. I liked the style as well as color. I bought it, owned it, drove it. Later it lost value, and I moved on and got a van because my interest had changed. Some autos do retain better trade-in value tho.

No one pays $1600 for a SB (or any other coin, for that matter) with the expectation that it will depreciate like an automobile. Not a great analogy.

coppercoins · June 28, 2005 5:39AM

Neptune -

Your original post in this thread says to me that you are saying we need to throw away the understanding of the minting process that made the coins, stop educating people about what their coins have on them and what they actually are, and start attaching cutsie names to everything to show our blissful ignorance. Rather than bother obtaining a numismatic education (which, by the way, is FAR easier to do now than it was 20 years ago), let's just call everything with any oddity at all an "error," throw them all in the same bucket, and try our hardest to get everyone interested in all of them so we can make money selling at the same level of ignorance as our uneducated customers.

I couldn't disagree more.

Errors are errors, die varieties are die varieties, and ne'er shall the tween meet. I don't like errors, I don't collect errors, and I refuse to sit by idly and watch people call die varieties "errors" just because they are not educated in the field and call them such. I would prefer to give them an understanding of the difference so they will know and spread the word to others who make the same mistake. This approach is far more logical than to throw away half a century of work by countless people who have bothered to use their noodle to figure out what happened to the coins by examining them and give appropriate terms to what caused the anomaly on them. The terms are all there and are infrequently amended, and people who want to follow the market and collect them have a responsibility to respect what has been given to them and use it to their educational advantage.

One of the main problems is lack of willful education on the part of the people who proport rarity in something they find just because none of the other coins in their handful display the same anomaly. I face it all the time with people sending images of common machine doubling to me thinking they've hit a jackpot after viewing 200 coins. Because rarity is rarity and that means searching often for many years to find an example of a rare piece, people these days don't have the patience to search for their rarities. The first thing that comes along and looks somewhat close MUST be what they're looking for, because NOBODY would bother looking through TWO pocketfuls of change to find something rare.

I'll tell you...I've been searching Lincolns since 1983 for a 1983 DDR cent. I have been through some 15 million coins and still haven't found one. I also haven't found a 1969S DDO, 1970S DDO, or 1984 DDO, and I go through on average 20 rolls of cents per week. THOSE are rare. THOSE are worth the money people charge for them. THOSE are very difficult to find anomalies that should have been caught before escaping the mint because the die that created the coins was at fault before it was placed by hand onto the coining press and should have been caught at one of a number of points of inspection.

A die crack or die gouge is simply considered a tolerable part of the minting process that is allowed to an extent and is a normal part of the wear of a normal die. It is entirely possible that the 3 legged buffalo, speared bison, earring Lincoln cent, pissing minuteman, or any of a number of other cutsie die gouges, cracks, overpolished dies, or grease filled dies were seen by mint employees and allowed to circulate because the problems displayed on the coins were within the tolerable bounds of normalcy. Major errors and die varieties are NOT within those bounds. Entire batches of coins were melted back into metal strip because of these problems. Bins that catch misshapen coins are collected and melted for reuse. They are NOT SUPPOSED to make it into circulation. A quarter or nickel with a die gouge would not be caught and destroyed because they are not considered to be "problem issues" by the mint.

There you have your difference as to why the educated market doesn't accept these minor flaws to be valuable anomalies that warrant attention. They make it into the hands of marketeers and hypists who drum up their market for them out of the ignorance of buyers, and some - very few of them - catch on and become a mainstream part of the coin market...STILL based on a misunderstanding of what caused them. Others like the 1989 "no VDB" cent, 1972 "no neck" cent, and too many others to mention end up in the annals of numismatic history as a laughable example of what people can be talked into. True errors and die varieties have their own separate markets that endure because there is irrefutable evidence that the individual anomalies should have been caught and pulled by the mint AND can be cataloged, counted, and collected by the anomaly and its rarity.

No disrespect intended - the main missing ingredient in your formula is that because you don't seem to care to obtain a numismatic education you think everyone else should follow...that and since you don't truly understand what makes errors and varieties a marketable item, anything that looks odd must be marketable too. How far do we go into selling common die gouges as rarities? Where does it stop? Are we supposed to just throw our arms up and toss our wallets to anyone who makes up some story that sounds halfway believable? Believe me...this attitude won't catch on because too many bunting numismatists are intelligently seeking advice from people who study coins for a living - and true professional numismatists won't be swayed by Johnny-come-lately "cutsie" die wear and minor mint-acceptable fatigue.

coppercoins · June 28, 2005 5:40AM

<< I give up. There are always going to be people who choose a new car because of what they read in 'Consumer Reports,' and there will always be others who choose a new car because the name is cool and they like the hood ornament. I know which type of consumer/collector I want to be, and would advocate others to be, but to each his (or her) own. There's enough rancor around here already.

Sean Reynolds >>

The most intelligent statement I've seen 'round here in a long time. I couldn't agree more. Thanks Sean.

Neptune · June 28, 2005 6:14AM

Your original post in this thread says to me that you are saying we need to throw away the understanding of the minting process that made the coins, stop educating people about what their coins have on them and what they actually are, and start attaching cutsie names to everything to show our blissful ignorance. Rather than bother obtaining a numismatic education (which, by the way, is FAR easier to do now than it was 20 years ago), let's just call everything with any oddity at all an "error," throw them all in the same bucket, and try our hardest to get everyone interested in all of them so we can make money selling at the same level of ignorance as our uneducated customers.

You could not be more wrong in your erroneous attempt to interpret what I said. Your interpretation is not only incorrect, it is totally off the wall and insulting. Possibly I did not express myself clearly enough, or you did not read it as written in its entirety.

No disrespect intended - the main missing ingredient in your formula is that because you don't seem to care to obtain a numismatic education you think everyone else should follow...

Well, that clears it up - you did not read my post in it's entirety, as written or you would not have said this at all. You seem more intent on winning an argument with 'someone'. I am not arguing with anyone - but only stating that simply calling a coin a nickname should not be the end of the world for CONECA members or others who may not 'like it'. If you go the their website on the very front page - you will see HYPE all over the page - of course, that's the CONECA members - so it's OK, right? I am not saying, either that CONECA is bad - only that they do it too. How about we visit some of the CONECA member auctions sites and see if any of their eBay listing are being 'hyped'! Anyone got links?

Having disdain and impatience for new error collectors - and preferring to argue in a condescending manner is not helping anyone learn anything - and proves my point. I am not going to try to beat a dead horse anymore. Having limited creativity to me, would by like death itself. I pray I never get so close-minded. Stating that I am not knowledgeable in errors coins does not denote my undesire to learn more - and you have twisted what I said into your own little world of negativity.

My analogy of car was not interpreted correctly either. I paid more for the car than "some people" thought it was worth I liked it and I wanted it. It was nobody elses business. It lost value - so what? It served its purpose and had it's place in time. It served a need for transportation and it was the prettiest car I ever had. People's interests change with time. Today I would rather drive an antique Chevy truck or a golf cart. I would even be willing to pay extra for one that I really liked if it hit my fancy. So what? God did not make clones for a reason. If everyone thought alike it would be a very boring world 'some think. Of course, there are others that may think it would be a good thing. Have a nice day.

p.s. I enjoyed the 'educational' part of your post CC, you just did not inteprete some things properly.

McBee · June 28, 2005 6:24AM

Thank you coppercoins. That is the clearest and most consise description of the difference between errors and die varieties that I have seen.

What a wealth of information can be found here!

RYK · June 28, 2005 6:26AM

Neptune,

Here is a link to one of your auctions. Here is the text:

This auction is for one (1) AUTHENTIC NGC MS64 2005-D "Speared Bison" Reverse Die Gouge Error Nickel.

You can view the actual authentic discovery coin today from PCGS here: http://members.aol.com/txrok/disc.jpg

In case you don't know, most of the Speared Bison obverses are not all that! - - And this MS64 is NOT all that bad considering the shape these coins are in.

Cherrypicker's Guide authors Bill Fivaz & J.T. Stanton have given this error Catalog # FS-05-2005D-901. Certified coin comes with COA of Discovery from myself, actual 'discoverer' of the 'Speared Bison'!

The 'spear' starts at the 'E' in States and goes through the bison downard 1/2 way to the mound. The 'spear' itself is 'best' viewed when holding coin sideways under light. Photo of spear was also taken this way. Spear is viewable with naked eye, but use magnification for better view.

Photos shown are taken of the EXACT coin that you will receive should you win. (except newspaper clipping)

Insured USPS Shipping with Delivery confirmation is $8.

You can view more about this coin at http://www.coinresource.com or

http://www.varietynickels.com

-------------------------------------------------------

-Excerpt from Coin World Magazine

Spear’ penetrates bison on new 5-cent coin

"The bison appears to have been speared on a quantity of 2005-D Jefferson, American Bison 5-cent coins discovered by Pamela Ryman-Moir of Texas. (See photo of exact newspaper article to right.)

A somewhat light but distinct die gouge shows as a raised, straight line on the coins. The line runs from the left side of the E in STATES southwest through the bison, ending below its belly . . . This die stage should achieve at least mention in specialty works on Westward Journey 5-cent coins or the Jefferson type in general.”

---------------------------------------------------------------

Call me stupid, but it looks like a lot of hype to me.

Neptune · June 28, 2005 6:43AM

There is no hype in that auction - only fact and no fiction. Nothing that says PQ, Gem, Monster, Estate sale, LQQK, will be more valuable than <insert name>, get it now while you can, better get one of these before all gone, blah blah blah.

What, not EVEN the word RARE or HOT, KEWL or PRETTY NEAT???

hmmmmmm

No hype there sir. Just the facts. In FACT, I have been very careful NOT to hype those coins, so that people like you would not have a leg to stand on. That auction is nothing but honest. Furthermore, I have started most of my auctions at 88 cents. I did sell a few BIN's by taking an average of past sales by all eBay sellers of this item of various TPG co - but only because I was requested by many to do so.

Let's see one of your auctions now.

RYK · June 28, 2005 6:44AM

No one who ever hypes a coin claims or admits to doing so.

Should we do a poll? Nah, better not.

cladking · June 28, 2005 7:43AM

Back in 1960 the mint had a big problem with little die breaks and die chip above
the date and Liberty on the nickels. Usually it was just above the 0 of the date and
these were quite common. Many people found these interesting and started buying
and selling the various combinations of "bar dates". The tough ones were far too ex-
pensive (a dollar or two)and the common ones could be found with a little effort. I
never really bought any of these but I did start a collection. Now I've got many dozens
of different coins in the collection and it's a fascinating way to spend an hour or two
at irregular intervals. There's adding new finds to the set or just looking to see what's
there. I've learned quite a bit about the minting process and the distribution of coins
from working on these.

Perhaps a few people lost a lot of money on the coins back in the '60's when they were
no longer fashionable but it was their choice to speculate in these coins. It's really no
different with these new coins. The argument can't be with the collectors or those who
buy, sell or discover them because none of these people are trying to harm people or to
coerce them. People are simply doing what collectors do; collecting. Certainly, education
is indicated but it should be geared toward letting them make their own decisions. In the
mean time warning people that such coins rarely retain their markets will help to protect
the few who will listen to such advice. And protect oneself from looking foolish when he's
wrong.

I'm not sure what my point is here. Perhaps it's just that lemonade is made of lemons.

Myqqy · June 28, 2005 8:43AM

Coppercoins- 1
seanq- 1
neptune- 0

That's how I'm scoring this one at home. The educated numismatists win....

MAD4MORGANS · June 28, 2005 8:46AM

Hi! I didn't read the posts in this thread but I know Neptune likes Buffalo Nickels so I figured I'd show one I bought today.

It's a 1925D and it has a scrape thingie on the front that looks like someone took a can-opener to.

I like to give names some of my coins and would like some suggestions. "Scarface Error" comes to mind but I think that's already taken by the 1888-O Morgan Dollar.

Any suggestions??

LucyBop · June 28, 2005 9:26AM

Here is what I find interesting about his thread... Here Neptune writes a letter and asks for opinions and states this.

<< For those who don't agree - that's fine too. Let's just not get childish or nasty about it. >>

Yet when she meets opposition from some very educated and informed numisists, she replies in this manner,

<< Why don't you take the time to explain yourself instead of just using sarcasm. I respect those with more knowledge than myself and would like to learn more, but it seems that 'some' folks would just rather take the easy way out. Instead of trying to educate, they would rather condescend and be sarcastic. That accomplishes nothing.
>>

<< I don't see why your feathers are so ruffled.
>>

<< You could not be more wrong in your erroneous attempt to interpret what I said. Your interpretation is not only incorrect, it is totally off the wall and insulting. >>

<< Well, that clears it up - you did not read my post in it's entirety, as written or you would not have said this at all. You seem more intent on winning an argument with 'someone'. I am not arguing with anyone >>

<< I have been very careful NOT to hype those coins, so that people like you would not have a leg to stand on. >>

Now who is the one getting childish about this?

ER · June 28, 2005 9:30AM

RYK · June 28, 2005 9:31AM

What Lucy said. Furthermore, I am a little bit disappointed with the title of the thread. I thought that there would be an opportunity for name calling here.

ER · June 28, 2005 9:36AM

You troublemaker, RYK. There.

Neptune · June 28, 2005 9:39AM

uhhhh I did not ask for any opinions - only posted letter, but it does not bother me in the least bit to hear other's. Again, God did not make us all alike for good cause. Don't like it - darn, I won't sleep tonite.

How's those 4 66's doing?

Myqqy - who made you judge and jury. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Opinions are not scorable. Maybe you should go grade coins instead and get some practice in.

seanq · June 28, 2005 9:39AM

<< What Lucy said. Furthermore, I am a little bit disappointed with the title of the thread. I thought that there would be an opportunity for name calling here.

>>

Lucy just called me a "very educated and informed numisist", does that count?

I also should defend Neptune some, while her auction description does have a bit of a Ronco Vege-Matic 'As Seen on TV!' tone to it, it's still nowhere near as bad as some hyper-hyped auctions I've seen for similar coins.

Sean Reynolds

dthigpen · June 28, 2005 9:40AM

I heart Lucy

RYK · June 28, 2005 9:42AM

You did say in your initial post:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion...

Now,

uhhhh I did not ask for any opinions...

So which is it?

LucyBop · June 28, 2005 9:43AM

<< uhhhh I did not ask for any opinions - only posted letter, but it does not bother me in the least bit to hear other's. Again, God did not make us all alike for good cause. Don't like it - darn, I won't sleep tonite.

How's those 4 66's doing?

>>

well, when one does post a thread of this nature, especially with this wording, opinions are forthcoming..

<< I wanted to post my thought and opinion here. For those who don't agree - that's fine too. Let's just not get childish or nasty about it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and this is just mine:
>>

I take it some of the other members here felt they were entitled to their opinion on this matter...

Neptune · June 28, 2005 9:45AM

For those who don't agree - that's fine too. Let's just not get childish or nasty about it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and this is just mine:

Yes, I stated this, as I knew that I would hear from the other side. You like Speared Bisons, don't you LB.

LucyBop · June 28, 2005 9:47AM

<< Myqqy - who made you judge and jury. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Opinions are not scorable. Maybe you should go grade coins instead and get some practice in.
>>

The latest Neptune rant...

Your kidding us right...

You didn't ask for a opinion yet you said, yet everyone is entitled to one, you ask for no one to get childish, and yet repeatedly your the only one that has been getting childish.

LucyBop · June 28, 2005 9:48AM

<< For those who don't agree - that's fine too. Let's just not get childish or nasty about it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and this is just mine:

Yes, I stated this, as I knew that I would hear from the other side. You like Speared Bisons, don't you LB. >>

I certianly do like them, I have searched many rolls trying to find me some examples, but I haven't found a thing...

Neptune · June 28, 2005 9:54AM

certianly do like them, I have searched many rolls trying to find me some examples, but I haven't found a thing...

Kewl. If you need any 66's let me know. I have a few I am thinking about selling for stupid money.

LucyBop · June 28, 2005 9:57AM

<< certianly do like them, I have searched many rolls trying to find me some examples, but I haven't found a thing...

Kewl. If you need any 66's let me know. I have a few I am thinking about selling for stupid money. >>

well, i see absolutely nothing wrong with starting a auction low, and letting the market determine the value, and bringing in stupid money.

this isn't a coin i would buy, but i would be thrilled to find some in a roll...

seanq · June 28, 2005 9:58AM

<< certianly do like them, I have searched many rolls trying to find me some examples, but I haven't found a thing...

Kewl. If you need any 66's let me know. I have a few I am thinking about selling for stupid money. >>

Well here's hoping your letter inspires a whole new generation of stupid collectors to pay it.

Sean Reynolds

RYK · June 28, 2005 9:58AM

Kewl. If you need any 66's let me know. I have a few I am thinking about selling for stupid money.

Usually the buyer is the stupid one when stupid money changes hands...

Neptune · June 28, 2005 10:09AM

I don't think that - but some others do.

ddink · June 28, 2005 10:38AM

<< This hobby definitely needs more willfully uneducated, trend-chasing, profiteering newbies. >>

Ignore him Pam. Too many people on these boards have been seized by the ubiquitous green-eyed monster. If people can collect VAMs and sample slabs, there is certainly room in our hobby for people to collect speared bisons.

Seanq, do you have any idea how elitist your statement sounds? People have to collect the same thing as you or else they are "uneducated" and "trend-chasing?" Maybe some people LIKE collecting speared bisons and such and DON'T like collecting classic coins. Who died and appointed you Supreme Ruler of Numismatics?

Cameonut · June 28, 2005 10:50AM

Well Neptune, you dug yourself a big hole.

Until now, I never really cared about the Speared Bison at all - just another die crack to me.

I now know I will never own a SB unless I find one in circulation. I will not by swayed by all this BS.

So enjoy your few minutes of "fame" - it will be fleeting.

ddink · June 28, 2005 11:12AM

<<
Well Neptune, you dug yourself a big hole.

Until now, I never really cared about the Speared Bison at all - just another die crack to me.

I now know I will never own a SB unless I find one in circulation. I will not by swayed by all this BS.

So enjoy your few minutes of "fame" - it will be fleeting.
>>

Why should anyone care if you ever buy a Speared Bison or not?

P.S. Screw fame, money's better anyway.

My thoughts on 'name calling'

Comments

Leave a Comment