CD -- thank you for saying exactly what I think. The distinction between errors and varieties are far, but it makes neither better or worse than the other.
Bushmaster 8 - it's "mobily challenged Native American Five Cent".
<< <i>Show me one person, just one, who is a strong proponent of these coins and either didn't participate in their discovery, or doesn't have a strong financial stake in their acceptance (or already made a tidy profit from them). Honestly, Neptune, you need to stop wasting your time trying to convince the "establishment" that they should accept the Speared Bison and just cash your checks. >>
Seanq, I did not participate in this discovery nor do I have a strong financial stake in the coin but I strongly believe that it has a relevent position in the coin collecting field. I place it right up there with my 72/72 and my Wisconsin Leaf error's. The why's or the wherefore are totally unimportant to me. I have them because I wanted them.
>>
You have got to be kidding me.......you CAN NOT be serious...
<< <i>Ignore him Pam. Too many people on these boards have been seized by the ubiquitous green-eyed monster. >>
If you're referring to jealousy, you can not be any further from the truth. If you are referring to the siren call of monster profits, you're talking to the wrong party in this discussion.
<< <i> If people can collect VAMs and sample slabs, there is certainly room in our hobby for people to collect speared bisons. >>
True enough. I collect broken pennies. There's room for those, too.
<< <i>Seanq, do you have any idea how elitist your statement sounds? People have to collect the same thing as you or else they are "uneducated" and "trend-chasing?" Maybe some people LIKE collecting speared bisons and such and DON'T like collecting classic coins. >>
I would never tell anyone what to collect. Like I said, I collect some of the weirdest stuff you can imagine. On that point even Neptune and I agree, stupid people should have fun things to collect, too.
<< <i>Who died and appointed you Supreme Ruler of Numismatics? >>
Walter Breen, it was in his will.
Now to make a serious point for a minute, allow me to share this true story from my early days of selling on eBay. I listed for sale a Mercury Dime with an RPM, or repunched mintmark, if you will forgive the overly technical term. I included a picture of the coin still in its 2x2 cardboard holder and a close-up of the mintmark showing the repunching, and listed it in the error coins category.
After the auction was closed and the coin shipped, I got a nasty email from the buyer complaining that the coin looked nothing like the picture, as it didn't have the cool shiny metal around it. The winner thought the reflection off the plastic window of the 2x2 was part of the coin. I guess he thought "RPM" referred to the part of the minting process where the coin was rotated at high speed untilthe metal spilled out of the sides of the die.
I wrote him back and assured him he'd received the coin in the photo, I explained what RPM meant, why I'd put that other picture of the mintmark in the listing, and that I'd gladly give him a refund if he wanted it. Instead I got another nasty email about how he couldn't care less about little stuff he couldn't see without a glass, and that I'd sold him a "used car," and he'd keep the coin to remind him and as a lesson for others, and I got a nice nasty feedback from him to boot.
THAT is what happens when you rely on catchy nicknames and not fundamental knowledge of coins and the minting process. I'm sorry, but writing an editorial letter suggesting that it's no big deal for someone to invest in or collect coins without even a basic understanding of what they're looking at is irresponsible. Knowing nothing about your error coins except someone came up with a marketing hook is a recipe for disaster. Just like if you advised someone to "buy key dates only in third party holders" but didn't teach them which were reputable, or talking up rainbow-toned coins without mentioning the difference between natural and artificial toning.
Whether you or I think the Speared Buffalo is significant or not is really irrelevant - who knows, it may be the next Three-Legged Buffalo - but someone who collects coins by their nicknames won't be in the hobby long enough to find that out.
Sean Reynolds
P.S.: There, now I'm done.
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>Now to make a serious point for a minute, allow me to share this true story from my early days of selling on eBay. I listed for sale a Mercury Dime with an RPM, or repunched mintmark, if you will forgive the overly technical term. >>
Come on now Sean- STOP it with all these numismatic terms. RPM's,, smarr PM's, next thing I know, your going to throw in that planchet word ----SHEEEESH.
Let's just not get childish or nasty about it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion
seanq - again I repeat, you need to learn some reading and interpreting skills, and try to follow the rules of a thread. Name calling is pretty childish don't you think. Furthermore quit twisting what I said and meant into your own distortion.
I am rally surprised at the level of rancour created by this post. I have no vested interest in the debate and hope I can be objective. The arguement seems to be whether nicknames or technical jargon are appropriate for coins that have unintended differences from the norm. It seems to me that the technical terminology is necessary for cataloging purposes and nicknames have fun appeal. I have no trouble with both. So a coin could be described both ways for sale ie Bald Buffalo (XXXXXX).
Have a Margarita then honey, that'll cure your ills!
Hey! Your buyin` then i,m Flyin`. :-D
Trime-Really, whats all the bickering about anyway. Call whatever coin you want to call it...shjt, hype the damn thing if you want. Lets just all smoke a bowl in the numismatic peace pipe and enjoy the hobby?
seanq - again I repeat, you need to learn some reading and interpreting skills, and try to follow the rules of a thread. Name calling is pretty childish don't you think. Furthermore quit twisting what I said and meant into your own distortion.
I am not sure what is going on in PM, but I do not see any name-calling or distortion--at least not from Seanq. All I see is an articulte and well-thought parry of your opinion. Being open-minded, I have learned a lot about errors on this thread, a topic of which I have little experience.
If one is not interested in the opinions and viewpoints of others, perhaps one should not post opinions here. There are times when I get irritated when other people on the forum call me on an issue that I post (see "My Position in Moderns" a while back, as an example). For that reason, I have learned to post primarily on issues that I have a firm grasp on both sides of the issue.
So a coin could be described both ways for sale ie Bald Buffalo (XXXXXX).
that's a great idea.
I think ideas and opinions are great. Personal type vendetta postings with incorrect 'accusations', insults, rudness and name calling, to me is unneccessary.
<< <i> I think ideas and opinions are great. Personal type vendetta postings with incorrect 'accusations', insults, rudness and name calling, to me is unneccessary. >>
Neptune,
Feel free to take this to PM if you want (there have been no PMs from me to anyone in this thread), but I would love to know where you think I'm guilty of making "incorrect 'accusations', insults, rudness and name calling." I had someone accuse me of being elitist and the "Supreme Ruler of Numismatics," maybe you were referring to him. Then again, perhaps it's not my "reading and interpreting skills" that need polishing.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>Whether you or I think the Speared Buffalo is significant or not is really irrelevant - who knows, it may be the next Three-Legged Buffalo - but someone who collects coins by their nicknames won't be in the hobby long enough to find that out. >>
Would you mind giving me the technical name for "Three-Legged Buffalo"...that sure sounds like a "nickname" to me! Perhaps you can fill me in on the proper numismatic term for "Speared Bison?"
As far as the "siren call" of monster profits, did Neptune not start all her auctions at a dollar and then let the market take over? Did she say things like "these will be worth a fortune in a few months" or "L00K PQ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++," etc.? I've looked at her auctions (and no, I don't own any SBs) and I don't see any hype. What I see is coins that start at a dollar with an accurate description of the coin and some of the articles written about the coin. Those bidders are the ones who decide how much they'll pay for something.
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
If a coin is MS-64 then it is just that. It's not PQ, BU, GEM, MONSTER, nor any other descriptive term. Any term to describe the coin other than the grade is just hype, pure and simple.
I've never seen terms other than the grade in the sheets. All these terms were created to hype the merchandise.
<< <i>Show me one person, just one, who is a strong proponent of these coins and either didn't participate in their discovery, or doesn't have a strong financial stake in their acceptance (or already made a tidy profit from them). Honestly, Neptune, you need to stop wasting your time trying to convince the "establishment" that they should accept the Speared Bison and just cash your checks. >>
Seanq, I did not participate in this discovery nor do I have a strong financial stake in the coin but I strongly believe that it has a relevent position in the coin collecting field. I place it right up there with my 72/72 and my Wisconsin Leaf error's. The why's or the wherefore are totally unimportant to me. I have them because I wanted them.
>>
You have got to be kidding me.......you CAN NOT be serious... >>
Just as serious as the PCGS Number assigned to the Speared Bison and the ANACs recognition!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i> Would you mind giving me the technical name for "Three-Legged Buffalo"...that sure sounds like a "nickname" to me! Perhaps you can fill me in on the proper numismatic term for "Speared Bison?" >>
PM sent. Always happy to educate a newbie.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
If you want to use the cutsie catch-names plus the technical name for the anomalies on these coins they would be:
"Speared Bison die gouge"
"Bald Bison grease filled die"
By knowledge of the minting process and how these things occur I can pretty much accurately state that the bald coin would be less common than the speared coin, that both are well within the mint's tolerance of a "normal" coin, and that neither are "die varieties", "varieties" nor "errors" since the subjects of the name given to the coins are common, normal effects of minting coins that the mint allows to pass into circulation. It is only those things thatshould have been caught and destroyed by the mint and are not supposed to make it into circulation that can technically be warranted the terms "error" and "die variety." "Varieties" are intended design changes, i.e. large date, small date, large profile, small profile, etc. This term also doesn't match these coins.
Not one bit of what I said in my previous post was meant to demean, belittle, condescend, or insult anyone. It is the situation as I see it, nothing more. I have nothing against Neptune, I have nothing against the buffalo coins. I don't agree with attaching cute names to every common anomaly that comes by. Frank Spadone did that back in the 60s and 70s and published "error" books to the effect. Educated numismatists are STILL trying to pry those books out of beginners' hands in favor of showing them how to collect with at least SOME knowledge of how coins are made. Spadone was obviously very ill-informed and his books were both extremely incorrect and very misleading.
The subject is not one of opinion, it is one of fact. Historically, when the, "return coins to money," time comes, we face the truth of what we collected. I can guarantee that when the collections of those who accumulated common pocket change with typical minting anomalies came to the chopping block they received far less for their "cutsie named coin" collection than someone who bothered to educate themselves properly and purchase coins that had some chance of a future.
Having said that, if there is no interest in returing the collection to the market for money and the collection is just for fun, then by all means knock your brains out. Where it crosses the line is hyping said coins to the market and taking advantage of the general ill-informed public. In this case there is not one guilty party, there are many. The originator of this thread, the newspaper that published it as a "variety," the grading companies who recognize them as rarities, and all those who sell and resell them as something of value. The one main person to blame, however, is the buyer. If there weren't completely numismatically uneducated people out there with fires burning in their pockets, they just might have the patience required to learn something and wouldn't be swayed by such hype.
This post and my previous post are based on years of experience and education collecting, researching, and dealing with anomalous coins. I'm not sure where the general concensus is on whether a post is opinionated or considered to be fact, but I fully believe my posts in this thread to be based and founded in fact - not opinion. I have seen this sort of stuff happen time and time again and the only thing it produces is quick, fleeting fame for a coin and its discoverer, an instant short-lived market, and a lot of angry people who spent good money on a coin that is later considered worthless. Some of them consider it part of their numismatic education and others leave the hobby thinking everyone in it is a crook.
At any rate stuff like this cannot be good for numismatics. This is why this thread has caused "rancor" and "insult" and all the other words people have used to describe it. Those who have experience and have been around for a long time know that the speared bison is yet another chapter in the fleeting overinflated common anomaly "get rich quick" market, and they know that these things are ultimately very bad for the hobby - the hobby they spent years to learn, love, and protect.
<< <i>PM sent. Always happy to educate a newbie. >>
If veteran collectors are as sarcastic as you, I hope to forever remain a newbie.
Everyone needs to remember something. To experienced collectors, SBs are worthless. Experienced collectors laugh at anyone "stupid" enough to pay $150 for a "garden variety" die gouge.
99% of the general public laughs at any experienced collector "stupid" enough to pay $10,000 for a hundred year old penny. After all, it's only a penny, right? Who in their right mind spends thousands on a penny?!!! In the mind of the experienced collector, novices who collect SBs are fools. But in the eyes of the general public, we're all fools anyway, whether we collect numismatically-acceptable classic coins or not!
EDITED to add:
Is it right for non-collectors to judge collectors of key date classic coins? If not, how is it right for "veteran" collectors to judge those who collect die gouges?
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
Veterans simply advise caution when buying these new varieties for strong premiums... This opinion is probably based on experience of what types of discoveries remain in demand, the nature of "fads" as well as uncertainty as to how large the population of such coins may eventually grow.. Veteran collectors could very well be wrong, and this speared bison could someday be a "redbook variety" and one that the album manufacturer's make a hole for, and they could remain very valuable 4 figure coins... but somehow, I doubt it.
One thing is certain.. they will always be called "speared bison"
<< <i>The subject is not one of opinion, it is one of fact. >>
CopperCoins: You're a hard man to disagree with since you're right so damn much, but here I believe you are overlooking the obvious; even fact can be a matter of opinion. A cat is a cat and a dog is a dog but the simple fact is that things are rarely so cut and dried. An hyena is essentially a hybrid of the two with more feline features than canine. It looks and acts more like a dog so it's really six of one and half a dozen of the other. While the SB may have all the attributes of an error coin and the bald buffalo none, the fact remains that the only thing separating the latter from error status is low mint standards. Surely they'd not have released the SB had it been seen. It's the WI coin where it gets more com- plicated. Certainly it's a minor error when considered in a vacuum, but these do not look like simple errors. It is impossible for many people to believe that two dies operating simultan- eously on probably the same quad press would suddenly become damaged in just such a way as to appear to be design variations. It doesn't really matter if an individual finds it plausible or not since there are those who don't. This means that at least to some people these are varieties rather than errors. Just as purists might say hyenas are cats and extra leaf quarters are errors the simple fact is that this depends on how one sees such things.
The same is ultimately true of the SB. While you and I know that it's unlikely that this coin will have much interest in twenty years and it's best to warn the uneducated about such things, we could still be wrong in this case.
I, for one, really appreciate the fact that your last post was not accusatory of those who col- lect or trade in such coins.
I have decided to buy a certified speared bison nickel on Ebay. If it degrades in value by the end of 2005, I told you so. If it doesn't, I'll eat crow and give it away in a giveaway on the US Coin forum.
Russ - You are right, and I'm first to admit when made a mistake - I COMPLETELY spaced that one. Had to go in hospital and I am just now getting back to norm. I will eat crow on that one..... but still it is not hyped, as some stated - I was very careful on all of my auctions to NOT hype them with fluff.
veteran collectors are as sarcastic as you, I hope to forever remain a newbie.
Thanks dd - that's what I was saying myself - he tends to like to talk down to people as if he is 'all that' in such a condescending and manner . ......such pleasantries here on the forum. You know everyone has their specialities - and tho I love learning about coins - I am first to admit I still have much to learn So what? Does that make you better than me - hell no - so go fly a kite.
In response to the 'popularity' of the SB - my opinion (and it IS only that) - is that folks like buffalos - alas they like the SB too.
I have to say again I personally agree with CopperCoin's view of the world. My experience leads me to die varieties as my favorite way to collect. It expands the series I love beyond dates and mintmarks.
However, there are many facets to this which have been discussed on numerous threads.
Errors - I don't like them, and don't consider them collectible. These coins are typically unique, rarely if ever replicated and then only by chance. These are not collected in a systematic fashion typically. I did once see a guy's collection who had collected 12 planchet clips with each having the clip at a differen number of the clock. It looked pretty neat. Some people want a "set" of completely unique coins. Others look at it and say, "that is not a set, but just a group of trash."
So my point is, I think too many people here are trying to compare collectibility, popularity, rarity, and value. Those are truely four different values that have nothing to do with each other.
Examples: 1. If there had only been one three legged Indian head nickel, you would have never heard of it again. Same with the 55 doubled die. 2. If a grease filled Buffalo is unique, why isn't it worth more than the 1913 nickel?
<< <i>...he tends to like to talk down to people as if he is 'all that' in such a condescending and manner . ..Does that make you better than me - hell no - so go fly a kite. >>
Thank you for refraining from name-calling and childishness in your post, Neptune. Still waiting to hear back from you where I did the same.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
uh no - really it's only you that's being childish. Seanq was being condescending in his earlier post, yes. And I never stated that I was perfect. . . . but neither are you missy.
Edited to add - I will let you have the last word for now LB because I have a real life. In addition, I don't care to banter immaturely on this forum.
<< <i>uh no - really it's only you that's being childish. Seanq was being condescending in his earlier post, yes. And I never stated that I was perfect. . . . but neither are you missy. >>
the HepKitty will never grow old and cranky!
a child at heart for life!
full of rock'n roll!
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Frankly, if I found all these SBs in change or rolls in my neck of the woods, I would be hawking and hyping the heck out of them too. Variety, schmiety; error, schmerror. I would probably tell the critics to Bite Me™.
This exposition of egomania serves well to reveal the author's character and the deficits therein. Be careful what you wish for when you cry "look at me!".
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Different thread from months ago, but the tone still turned the same.
I *like* having a "friendly name" for items.....I think DDO (instead of some number that is great for differentiating or cataloging) or Wisconsin Extra Leaf is pretty cool to call a coin. "Speared" doesn't do it for me as it doesn't like a spear...it really looks like a die-gouge. As such, it is a shame that there was a moment of weakness on this one and it was labelled on the slab.
I have no problems with someone selling them for profit. And I particularly like how LittleJohn has done it....he hasn't been hyping them here, there, and everywhere, but he certainly is getting his money for them.
Myqqy - who made you judge and jury. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Opinions are not scorable. Maybe you should go grade coins instead and get some practice in.
My opinions are scorable. Here's my updated score sheet on this thread: seanq- +10 neptune- -15
You still lose this argument. I grade coins all the time, as I find it useful for my numismatic education. Thanks for the suggestion, though....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
Comments
CD -- thank you for saying exactly what I think. The distinction between errors and varieties are far, but it makes neither better or worse than the other.
Bushmaster 8 - it's "mobily challenged Native American Five Cent".
Well Neptune, you dug yourself a big hole.
you're looney tunes.
Why should anyone care if you ever buy a Speared Bison or not?
<< <i>
<< <i>Show me one person, just one, who is a strong proponent of these coins and either didn't participate in their discovery, or doesn't have a strong financial stake in their acceptance (or already made a tidy profit from them). Honestly, Neptune, you need to stop wasting your time trying to convince the "establishment" that they should accept the Speared Bison and just cash your checks. >>
Seanq, I did not participate in this discovery nor do I have a strong financial stake in the coin but I strongly believe that it has a relevent position in the coin collecting field. I place it right up there with my 72/72 and my Wisconsin Leaf error's. The why's or the wherefore are totally unimportant to me. I have them because I wanted them.
You have got to be kidding me.......you CAN NOT be serious...
<< <i>Ignore him Pam. Too many people on these boards have been seized by the ubiquitous green-eyed monster. >>
If you're referring to jealousy, you can not be any further from the truth. If you are referring to the siren call of monster profits, you're talking to the wrong party in this discussion.
<< <i> If people can collect VAMs and sample slabs, there is certainly room in our hobby for people to collect speared bisons. >>
True enough. I collect broken pennies. There's room for those, too.
<< <i>Seanq, do you have any idea how elitist your statement sounds? People have to collect the same thing as you or else they are "uneducated" and "trend-chasing?" Maybe some people LIKE collecting speared bisons and such and DON'T like collecting classic coins. >>
I would never tell anyone what to collect. Like I said, I collect some of the weirdest stuff you can imagine. On that point even Neptune and I agree, stupid people should have fun things to collect, too.
<< <i>Who died and appointed you Supreme Ruler of Numismatics? >>
Walter Breen, it was in his will.
Now to make a serious point for a minute, allow me to share this true story from my early days of selling on eBay. I listed for sale a Mercury Dime with an RPM, or repunched mintmark, if you will forgive the overly technical term. I included a picture of the coin still in its 2x2 cardboard holder and a close-up of the mintmark showing the repunching, and listed it in the error coins category.
After the auction was closed and the coin shipped, I got a nasty email from the buyer complaining that the coin looked nothing like the picture, as it didn't have the cool shiny metal around it. The winner thought the reflection off the plastic window of the 2x2 was part of the coin. I guess he thought "RPM" referred to the part of the minting process where the coin was rotated at high speed untilthe metal spilled out of the sides of the die.
I wrote him back and assured him he'd received the coin in the photo, I explained what RPM meant, why I'd put that other picture of the mintmark in the listing, and that I'd gladly give him a refund if he wanted it. Instead I got another nasty email about how he couldn't care less about little stuff he couldn't see without a glass, and that I'd sold him a "used car," and he'd keep the coin to remind him and as a lesson for others, and I got a nice nasty feedback from him to boot.
THAT is what happens when you rely on catchy nicknames and not fundamental knowledge of coins and the minting process. I'm sorry, but writing an editorial letter suggesting that it's no big deal for someone to invest in or collect coins without even a basic understanding of what they're looking at is irresponsible. Knowing nothing about your error coins except someone came up with a marketing hook is a recipe for disaster. Just like if you advised someone to "buy key dates only in third party holders" but didn't teach them which were reputable, or talking up rainbow-toned coins without mentioning the difference between natural and artificial toning.
Whether you or I think the Speared Buffalo is significant or not is really irrelevant - who knows, it may be the next Three-Legged Buffalo - but someone who collects coins by their nicknames won't be in the hobby long enough to find that out.
Sean Reynolds
P.S.: There, now I'm done.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>Now to make a serious point for a minute, allow me to share this true story from my early days of selling on eBay. I listed for sale a Mercury Dime with an RPM, or repunched mintmark, if you will forgive the overly technical term. >>
Come on now Sean- STOP it with all these numismatic terms. RPM's,, smarr PM's, next thing I know, your going to throw in that planchet word ----SHEEEESH.
seanq - again I repeat, you need to learn some reading and interpreting skills, and try to follow the rules of a thread. Name calling is pretty childish don't you think. Furthermore quit twisting what I said and meant into your own distortion.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
as the coin turns...<random soapopra theme>
<< <i>this thread is making me dizzy as hell....
as the coin turns...<random soapopra theme> >>
Have a Margarita then honey, that'll cure your ills!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
The arguement seems to be whether nicknames or technical jargon are appropriate for coins that have unintended differences from the norm. It seems to me that the technical terminology is necessary for cataloging purposes and nicknames have fun appeal. I have no trouble with both. So a coin could be described both ways for sale ie Bald Buffalo (XXXXXX).
Hey! Your buyin` then i,m Flyin`. :-D
Trime-Really, whats all the bickering about anyway.
Call whatever coin you want to call it...shjt, hype the damn thing if you want.
Lets just all smoke a bowl in the numismatic peace pipe and enjoy the hobby?
...okay,who brought the stuff...
I am not sure what is going on in PM, but I do not see any name-calling or distortion--at least not from Seanq. All I see is an articulte and well-thought parry of your opinion. Being open-minded, I have learned a lot about errors on this thread, a topic of which I have little experience.
If one is not interested in the opinions and viewpoints of others, perhaps one should not post opinions here. There are times when I get irritated when other people on the forum call me on an issue that I post (see "My Position in Moderns" a while back, as an example). For that reason, I have learned to post primarily on issues that I have a firm grasp on both sides of the issue.
In the above auction, you get six bison "error" coins:
2005 P Bison Nickel Broken Tomahawk Error.
2005 P Bison Nickel 4 1/2 Leg Error.
2005 D Bison Nickel Reverse Die Crack Under Chin Error.
2005 D Bison Nickel Abnormal T in Liberty Error.
2005 D Bison Nickel Filled G in GOD Error.
2005 D Bison Nickel Filled B in PLURIBUS Error.
So a coin could be described both ways for sale ie Bald Buffalo (XXXXXX).
that's a great idea.
I think ideas and opinions are great. Personal type vendetta postings with incorrect 'accusations', insults, rudness and name calling, to me is unneccessary.
Peace on earth.
<< <i>
I think ideas and opinions are great. Personal type vendetta postings with incorrect 'accusations', insults, rudness and name calling, to me is unneccessary.
>>
Neptune,
Feel free to take this to PM if you want (there have been no PMs from me to anyone in this thread), but I would love to know where you think I'm guilty of making "incorrect 'accusations', insults, rudness and name calling." I had someone accuse me of being elitist and the "Supreme Ruler of Numismatics," maybe you were referring to him. Then again, perhaps it's not my "reading and interpreting skills" that need polishing.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>Whether you or I think the Speared Buffalo is significant or not is really irrelevant - who knows, it may be the next Three-Legged Buffalo - but someone who collects coins by their nicknames won't be in the hobby long enough to find that out. >>
Would you mind giving me the technical name for "Three-Legged Buffalo"...that sure sounds like a "nickname" to me! Perhaps you can fill me in on the proper numismatic term for "Speared Bison?"
As far as the "siren call" of monster profits, did Neptune not start all her auctions at a dollar and then let the market take over? Did she say things like "these will be worth a fortune in a few months" or "L00K PQ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++," etc.? I've looked at her auctions (and no, I don't own any SBs) and I don't see any hype. What I see is coins that start at a dollar with an accurate description of the coin and some of the articles written about the coin. Those bidders are the ones who decide how much they'll pay for something.
If a coin is MS-64 then it is just that. It's not PQ, BU, GEM, MONSTER, nor any other descriptive term. Any term to describe the coin other than the grade is just hype, pure and simple.
I've never seen terms other than the grade in the sheets. All these terms were created to hype the merchandise.
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Show me one person, just one, who is a strong proponent of these coins and either didn't participate in their discovery, or doesn't have a strong financial stake in their acceptance (or already made a tidy profit from them). Honestly, Neptune, you need to stop wasting your time trying to convince the "establishment" that they should accept the Speared Bison and just cash your checks. >>
Seanq, I did not participate in this discovery nor do I have a strong financial stake in the coin but I strongly believe that it has a relevent position in the coin collecting field. I place it right up there with my 72/72 and my Wisconsin Leaf error's. The why's or the wherefore are totally unimportant to me. I have them because I wanted them.
You have got to be kidding me.......you CAN NOT be serious... >>
Just as serious as the PCGS Number assigned to the Speared Bison and the ANACs recognition!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
Would you mind giving me the technical name for "Three-Legged Buffalo"...that sure sounds like a "nickname" to me! Perhaps you can fill me in on the proper numismatic term for "Speared Bison?" >>
PM sent. Always happy to educate a newbie.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
"Speared Bison die gouge"
"Bald Bison grease filled die"
By knowledge of the minting process and how these things occur I can pretty much accurately state that the bald coin would be less common than the speared coin, that both are well within the mint's tolerance of a "normal" coin, and that neither are "die varieties", "varieties" nor "errors" since the subjects of the name given to the coins are common, normal effects of minting coins that the mint allows to pass into circulation. It is only those things thatshould have been caught and destroyed by the mint and are not supposed to make it into circulation that can technically be warranted the terms "error" and "die variety." "Varieties" are intended design changes, i.e. large date, small date, large profile, small profile, etc. This term also doesn't match these coins.
Not one bit of what I said in my previous post was meant to demean, belittle, condescend, or insult anyone. It is the situation as I see it, nothing more. I have nothing against Neptune, I have nothing against the buffalo coins. I don't agree with attaching cute names to every common anomaly that comes by. Frank Spadone did that back in the 60s and 70s and published "error" books to the effect. Educated numismatists are STILL trying to pry those books out of beginners' hands in favor of showing them how to collect with at least SOME knowledge of how coins are made. Spadone was obviously very ill-informed and his books were both extremely incorrect and very misleading.
The subject is not one of opinion, it is one of fact. Historically, when the, "return coins to money," time comes, we face the truth of what we collected. I can guarantee that when the collections of those who accumulated common pocket change with typical minting anomalies came to the chopping block they received far less for their "cutsie named coin" collection than someone who bothered to educate themselves properly and purchase coins that had some chance of a future.
Having said that, if there is no interest in returing the collection to the market for money and the collection is just for fun, then by all means knock your brains out. Where it crosses the line is hyping said coins to the market and taking advantage of the general ill-informed public. In this case there is not one guilty party, there are many. The originator of this thread, the newspaper that published it as a "variety," the grading companies who recognize them as rarities, and all those who sell and resell them as something of value. The one main person to blame, however, is the buyer. If there weren't completely numismatically uneducated people out there with fires burning in their pockets, they just might have the patience required to learn something and wouldn't be swayed by such hype.
This post and my previous post are based on years of experience and education collecting, researching, and dealing with anomalous coins. I'm not sure where the general concensus is on whether a post is opinionated or considered to be fact, but I fully believe my posts in this thread to be based and founded in fact - not opinion. I have seen this sort of stuff happen time and time again and the only thing it produces is quick, fleeting fame for a coin and its discoverer, an instant short-lived market, and a lot of angry people who spent good money on a coin that is later considered worthless. Some of them consider it part of their numismatic education and others leave the hobby thinking everyone in it is a crook.
At any rate stuff like this cannot be good for numismatics. This is why this thread has caused "rancor" and "insult" and all the other words people have used to describe it. Those who have experience and have been around for a long time know that the speared bison is yet another chapter in the fleeting overinflated common anomaly "get rich quick" market, and they know that these things are ultimately very bad for the hobby - the hobby they spent years to learn, love, and protect.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
<< <i>PM sent. Always happy to educate a newbie. >>
If veteran collectors are as sarcastic as you, I hope to forever remain a newbie.
Everyone needs to remember something. To experienced collectors, SBs are worthless. Experienced collectors laugh at anyone "stupid" enough to pay $150 for a "garden variety" die gouge.
99% of the general public laughs at any experienced collector "stupid" enough to pay $10,000 for a hundred year old penny. After all, it's only a penny, right? Who in their right mind spends thousands on a penny?!!! In the mind of the experienced collector, novices who collect SBs are fools. But in the eyes of the general public, we're all fools anyway, whether we collect numismatically-acceptable classic coins or not!
EDITED to add:
Is it right for non-collectors to judge collectors of key date classic coins? If not, how is it right for "veteran" collectors to judge those who collect die gouges?
This opinion is probably based on experience of what types of discoveries remain in demand, the nature of "fads"
as well as uncertainty as to how large the population of such coins may eventually grow..
Veteran collectors could very well be wrong, and this speared bison could someday be a "redbook variety" and one that the album manufacturer's make a hole for, and they could remain very valuable 4 figure coins... but somehow, I doubt it.
One thing is certain.. they will always be called "speared bison"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>And again, this post was not to promote the SB, as I am not even selling any right now. >>
<< <i>Here is a link to one of your auctions. Here is the text:
This auction is for one (1) AUTHENTIC NGC MS64 2005-D "Speared Bison" Reverse Die Gouge Error Nickel. >>
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>And again, this post was not to promote the SB, as I am not even selling any right now. >>
<< <i>Here is a link to one of your auctions. Here is the text:
This auction is for one (1) AUTHENTIC NGC MS64 2005-D "Speared Bison" Reverse Die Gouge Error Nickel. >>
Russ, NCNE >>
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>The subject is not one of opinion, it is one of fact. >>
CopperCoins: You're a hard man to disagree with since you're right so damn much, but
here I believe you are overlooking the obvious; even fact can be a matter of opinion. A
cat is a cat and a dog is a dog but the simple fact is that things are rarely so cut and dried.
An hyena is essentially a hybrid of the two with more feline features than canine. It looks
and acts more like a dog so it's really six of one and half a dozen of the other. While the
SB may have all the attributes of an error coin and the bald buffalo none, the fact remains
that the only thing separating the latter from error status is low mint standards. Surely
they'd not have released the SB had it been seen. It's the WI coin where it gets more com-
plicated. Certainly it's a minor error when considered in a vacuum, but these do not look like
simple errors. It is impossible for many people to believe that two dies operating simultan-
eously on probably the same quad press would suddenly become damaged in just such a
way as to appear to be design variations. It doesn't really matter if an individual finds it
plausible or not since there are those who don't. This means that at least to some people
these are varieties rather than errors. Just as purists might say hyenas are cats and extra
leaf quarters are errors the simple fact is that this depends on how one sees such things.
The same is ultimately true of the SB. While you and I know that it's unlikely that this coin
will have much interest in twenty years and it's best to warn the uneducated about such things,
we could still be wrong in this case.
I, for one, really appreciate the fact that your last post was not accusatory of those who col-
lect or trade in such coins.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
veteran collectors are as sarcastic as you, I hope to forever remain a newbie.
Thanks dd - that's what I was saying myself - he tends to like to talk down to people as if he is 'all that' in such a condescending and manner . ......such pleasantries here on the forum. You know everyone has their specialities - and tho I love learning about coins - I am first to admit I still have much to learn So what? Does that make you better than me - hell no - so go fly a kite.
In response to the 'popularity' of the SB - my opinion (and it IS only that) - is that folks like buffalos - alas they like the SB too.
However, there are many facets to this which have been discussed on numerous threads.
Errors - I don't like them, and don't consider them collectible. These coins are typically unique, rarely if ever replicated and then only by chance. These are not collected in a systematic fashion typically. I did once see a guy's collection who had collected 12 planchet clips with each having the clip at a differen number of the clock. It looked pretty neat. Some people want a "set" of completely unique coins. Others look at it and say, "that is not a set, but just a group of trash."
So my point is, I think too many people here are trying to compare collectibility, popularity, rarity, and value. Those are truely four different values that have nothing to do with each other.
Examples:
1. If there had only been one three legged Indian head nickel, you would have never heard of it again. Same with the 55 doubled die.
2. If a grease filled Buffalo is unique, why isn't it worth more than the 1913 nickel?
And the questions roll on and on.
<< <i>Does that make you better than me - hell no - so go fly a kite. >>
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>...he tends to like to talk down to people as if he is 'all that' in such a condescending and manner . ..Does that make you better than me - hell no - so go fly a kite. >>
Thank you for refraining from name-calling and childishness in your post, Neptune. Still waiting to hear back from you where I did the same.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I am being childish, the others are as well, or being condescending, while you are being perfectly ok in this whole thread...
This sounds like my oldest son actually, it was never his fault and he was never in the wrong...
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Edited to add - I will let you have the last word for now LB because I have a real life. In addition, I don't care to banter immaturely on this forum.
<< <i>uh no - really it's only you that's being childish. Seanq was being condescending in his earlier post, yes. And I never stated that I was perfect. . . . but neither are you missy. >>
the HepKitty will never grow old and cranky!
a child at heart for life!
full of rock'n roll!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Greed is good, and the pursuit of profit the loftiest of ideals.©
<< <i>, I don't care to banter immaturely on this forum. >>
now this one is funny, because thats all you have done in this thread....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Man, this is a crappy thread! >>
I *like* having a "friendly name" for items.....I think DDO (instead of some number that is great for differentiating or cataloging) or Wisconsin Extra Leaf is pretty cool to call a coin.
"Speared" doesn't do it for me as it doesn't like a spear...it really looks like a die-gouge. As such, it is a shame that there was a moment of weakness on this one and it was labelled on the slab.
I have no problems with someone selling them for profit. And I particularly like how LittleJohn has done it....he hasn't been hyping them here, there, and everywhere, but he certainly is getting his money for them.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
My opinions are scorable. Here's my updated score sheet on this thread:
seanq- +10
neptune- -15
You still lose this argument. I grade coins all the time, as I find it useful for my numismatic education. Thanks for the suggestion, though....
Trying to catch up on this thread....there are so many edited posts
Btw...Myqqy ----
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Sorry, I thought it important to add: Greed is good, and the pursuit of profit the loftiest of ideals.©