Is the Wing Detail on this 1795 Flowing Hair Half Heavily Tooled?

braddick · June 25, 2005 12:06AM

eBay LINK: FN12 1795 Half Dollar

It looks like it to me, but the seller is trusted and doesn't mention it in the auction description.
What's your opinion?

cmanbb · June 25, 2005 12:13AM

It does seem a wee bit bold for such a worn coin

geb209 · June 25, 2005 12:37AM

Not to start a bash thread on this seller, but a little over two years ago I purchased a super rare business strike coin in VF condition (the proof counterpart was much more common and worth less than half as much). The coin had been graded by PCGS as a business strike (old green label holder encapsulated prior to publishing of book on series). Their description stated that the coin was of X varieity. Upon looking in the book, X variety was described as a proof die only (I confirmed it with the author of the book via email and even showed him a picture of the coin). I gave them a call after the coin arrived and told them that the fields of the coin along with the fact that the coin was, in fact, X varieity made me believe that the coin wasn't a business strike. They seemed flustered over the phone and didn't realize that X variety was listed as a proof strike. I returned the coin and they gave me a refund. The coin immediately went back up on their website as a business strike but they removed the reference to X variety. The coin was later removed from their listing and I assumed that it had sold. I emailed them and said that I didn't want to do anymore business with them because they relisted the coin as a business strike when it was, in fact, a well worn proof.

fc · June 25, 2005 12:41AM

i know very little about that series, but even if i could afford it,
i do not think i would be happy with it at all.

sure looks strange to me, compared to other coins forum member's have showed
in the same or close condition.

please take my advice with a grain (pound) of salt.

billboat · June 25, 2005 12:49AM

I like the seller. For what it's worth, I checked my Overton--the plate coin for 1795 O-119 has a strongly struck right wing and a weaker struck left (looking at coin)--which could account for the wear pattern on the auction coin. Also looked at the Overton grading examples--coin in auction (as F15) looks a lot like those shown for a 1795 in F12. and VF20. Not to say it hasn't been messed with--but I don't think so. I'd take a shot at it if I had the money.

Nap · June 25, 2005 12:54AM

If it is tooled, it's strange that someone would re-engrave one wing and not the other.

I would say the detail is natural, however, there are other aspects of the coin that are not.

billboat · June 25, 2005 1:00AM

<< If it is tooled, it's strange that someone would re-engrave one wing and not the other.

I would say the detail is natural, however, there are other aspects of the coin that are not. >>

You've aroused my curiousity--which other aspects?

DMWJR · June 25, 2005 1:31AM

There is a nice size rim ding at 8:00 on the reverse.

ARCO · June 25, 2005 1:40AM

I would say that the coin has indeed been tooled and very noticeably. Why only one side? Maybe the "tooler", started on one side, saw how terrible it looked and stopped right there.

Nap · June 25, 2005 1:47AM

<< You've aroused my curiousity--which other aspects? >>

Sorry, I didn't mean to be cryptic. I meant the obvious things: the cleaning, the rim ding, and the dings on and next to the eagle's left wing.

billboat · June 25, 2005 2:02AM

<< 

<< You've aroused my curiousity--which other aspects? >>

Sorry, I didn't mean to be cryptic. I meant the obvious things: the cleaning, the rim ding, and the dings on and next to the eagle's left wing. >>

Whew! Thanks--couldn't figure out what I was missing. I agree that the coin has several problems and the seller has pointed them out. I really want a 1795 for my half dollar type set but the minimum bid on this one is too high--don't know what the Greysheet ask is but will wager it's not $1375. Still like the coin.

BillJones · June 25, 2005 2:33AM

The coin has been tooled. The wing and the tail feathers are much sharper than they were when the coin was struck.

I'm a bit surprised that this seller would not note this. They definitely have the ability to spot it since the firm makes an effort to be a major player in early U.S. coinage.

majorbigtime · June 25, 2005 2:42AM

<< The coin has been tooled.
I'm a bit surprised that this seller would not note this. >>

Very disturbing--and I have bought from these folks.

geb209 · June 25, 2005 3:16AM

Another surprise about this coin:

Seller says "GREY SHEET BID IN FINE $1200 & COIN TRENDS IN FINE$1100." Ok, so why put it up at the starting price of $1,375 even though they know it has a solid rim ding and has been cleaned? I don't know anything about the variety but R4 doesn't suggest any premium.

Good game, and "NO RETURN PRIVILAGE ON BUY IT NOW PURCHASES." Just go ahead and bend over while you're at it.

majorbigtime · June 25, 2005 3:31AM

<< "NO RETURN PRIVILAGE ON BUY IT NOW PURCHASES." Just go ahead and bend over while you're at it. >>

Hmmmmmmmmm. Guess I won't be buying from them anymore.

To paraphrase an infamous member, and I thought they were legit!

BigMoose · June 25, 2005 4:35AM

Pat, you are right on the money. The wing and tail feathers are absolutely tooled/reengraved. You will sometimes see this on Large Cent obverses with the hair detail tooled/reengraved.

PerryHall · June 25, 2005 5:22AM

It's being sold by JJTEAPARTY who is a very reputable firm. They mentioned the cleaning and rim bump in their description. Why wouldn't they also mention the retooling unless they missed it? Someone should call them and ask about the possibility that the wing and tail feathers were retooled.

PerryHall · June 25, 2005 5:29AM

The winner of this auction is allowed a 3 day return unless they used the BIN in which case no return is allowed. What's the rationale of this? Why wouldn't the BIN also be allowed a return? Is this an unusual eBay requirement or does it happen in other auctions?

ARCO · June 25, 2005 6:28AM

The 1795 Flowing hair half is very popular but is not terribly scarce nor difficult to find. This is a date that one could easily find a very nice PCGS, or NGC example in VG8-VF20 for a good price, authenticated and with some patience, with a nice original and darker patina.

Tyler

billboat · June 25, 2005 6:49AM

I guess the tooling question is settled--but think I'll email Brian (unless someone has already done it) and ask him about it on Monday. I'll also ask about the BIN return question. They currently have 9 itmes on auction--all with BIN prices--but only 4 have the "No return on BIN provision"--the others have their standard 3 day return with no qualifier--seems odd.

mozin · June 25, 2005 9:07AM

Buy a slabbed one instead.

michael · June 25, 2005 11:48AM

see below

michael · June 25, 2005 11:50AM

well this is after the fact

the eagles left (sinister wing and tail feathers) have been tooled to remove graffiti usually just polished and smoothed to remove the graffiti but someone had an artistic bent

due again most likely graffiti was removed hence the re-engraving of the feathers removes the graffiti and "hides" the repair to make the coin more pleasing and "realistic" imposter original coin

and i have seen this many times over the last 40 or so years on both wings of the 1795 halfdollars to remove graffiti

a fantastic looking coin;;;;;;;;;;;;; i grade this coin $300-$400

geb209 · June 25, 2005 12:29PM

<< well this is after the fact

the eagles left (sinister wing and tail feathers) have been tooled to remove graffiti usually just polished and smoothed to remove the graffiti but someone had an artistic bent

due again most likely graffiti was removed hence the re-engraving of the feathers removes the graffiti and "hides" the repair to make the coin more pleasing and "realistic" imposter original coin

and i have seen this many times over the last 40 or so years on both wings of the 1795 halfdollars to remove graffiti

a fantastic looking coin;;;;;;;;;;;;; i grade this coin $300-$400 >>

All the more reason to pull the trigger on the buy it now with no return.

michael · June 25, 2005 1:33PM

see above

as i had to delete as my post in this box

as it was was

too politically incorrect and truthful to post on here

TomB · June 25, 2005 2:00PM

Based on the images available, I do not agree with the consensus that this coin is retooled. If you disagree, please look in your copy of Overton and compare the image for the O.119 in the book with this image and see for yourself.

ARCO · June 25, 2005 2:28PM

Maybe Tom has a point. It very well could a characteristic of this Overton example. Looking at the comparisons and factoring grade, I am still of the opinion that it has been tooled to attempt to add detail. The scan is a bit too small for a conclusive answer.

Here is a comparison with a NGC XF40 O-119

Here is another O-119 worn down closer in grade to the Ebay example. This is a VG8.

The O-119 does have extra strong detail in the right feather, but for a Fine coin, the detail still seems extraordinarily strong. Probably would be best to see the coin in hand, and if there is not a return privilege...it is probably for a very good reason.

Tyler

billboat · June 26, 2005 11:16PM

Emailed seller this AM and asked about the tooling question and BIN return policy.

BigMoose · June 26, 2005 11:42PM

I still believe this coin was tooled. The lines between the feathers look too sharp and too wide.

Nysoto · June 26, 2005 11:46PM

I do not believe the eagle's left wing or tail has been tooled, O.119 is well struck in those areas. I have seen numerous O.119's and currently have a PCGS VF25. Check the Heritage archives. 1795 reverse N also has a reverse that has nearly full detail in this wing in F12.

I would grade F12 details (no curvature left on nose and lips), with a rim bump and cleaning, it is worth less than the starting bid. Wait for a better example.

billboat · June 27, 2005 12:08AM

Nysoto--Glad you weighed in on this question.

teapartycoin · June 27, 2005 11:36AM

It has come to my attention that many believe this piece has been tooled. I reviewed the coin again today and did not see any evidence of retooling, nor did my coworker.

With regard to the BIN no return feature, we started to implement that only on the BIN situations as buyers were taking advantage of the return privilege to use it as a form of approval service thereby ending the auction early, causing us to eat a bunch of fees and then returning the coin--that is why we stopped offering the return privilege with BIN. To say we do not offer a return policy is false as indicated by our 3 day return policy offered on all sales ending through the normal course of the auction not using the BIN option. If we had something to hide we wouldn't offer a return privilege at all.

In fact, I am happy to offer our regular return policy on this particular lot (since there is so much debate regarding whether it is tooled or not), as we are not out to mislead anyone, nor do we have anything to hide.

If you have any questions regarding the coin or the terms of this thread, please speak to me directly.

Best wishes,

Liz Coggan
1-800-877-1415

elwood · June 27, 2005 12:49PM

Thanks Liz

ER · June 27, 2005 1:06PM

I know nothing about half$, but how can anyone look at a pic that small with the quality not the greatest, and concluded that the coin was tooled?

Thanks, Liz.

braddick · June 27, 2005 1:06PM

Thanks for the email and the response. It goes to show how sometimes a photo can be misleading.

teapartycoin · June 28, 2005 12:36AM

As an additional aside, this coin was sent to NGC on invoice #1897917-009 and was returned to us as improperly cleaned. There was no mention of tooling by them. --Liz Coggan

Is the Wing Detail on this 1795 Flowing Hair Half Heavily Tooled?

Comments

Leave a Comment