Hypothetical #16 - Undergraded Slab

MrEureka · June 20, 2005 11:46PM

Suppose you own a coin that you just slabbed. You show it to a leading dealer who has a reputation for having a great eye. You explain that you want to sell the coin but you think it might be undergraded. You ask for his opinion. He replies that he thinks the coin is accurately graded and expresses an interest in buying it. You negotiate a bid at roughly the market price based on its current grade. At the next show you see the coin in the same dealer's showcase. It is now graded two points higher and worth five times what you were paid. You confront the dealer. He says he changed his mind about the coin and decided to resubmit it. Do you think you were cheated?

Prethen · June 20, 2005 11:48PM

You weren't cheated, you were cherry-picked to your own folly. If you truly believed the coin was undergraded, you should have sent it in yourself, otherwise hopefully you might a nice profit anyway.

ziggy29 · June 20, 2005 11:49PM

Yes, I feel misled because the dealer said the coin was accurately graded. He tells me one thing and does another. But no, I don't feel that I am entitled to anything more.

I'd try to work something out with the dealer, knowing that legally I don't really have any recourse other than to share my experience with the collecting community. It's up to the dealer at this point how much their reputation for fair dealing is worth to them.

construct · June 20, 2005 11:54PM

If I'm sophistocated enough to be submitting coins all by myself and complaining about undergrading, I ought to be clever enough to negotiate a sale on my own coin. I say I made a bad deal. Oh, well.

Longacre · June 20, 2005 11:57PM

I would be really mad, but I don't think I have any recourse if the dealer was giving his (accurate) opinion at the time.

BillJones · June 20, 2005 11:58PM

You weren’t cheated. It’s a matter of opinion. If you thought is was that good, you should have cracked it and sent it in yourself. You didn’t take the chance so you didn’t get the benefit.

The crack and re-grade game can work both ways. I knew a dealer who had PR-65 Morgan dollar that he thought could up grade. He cracked it and sent it in. You can imagine his surprise when it came back MS-66, Proof-like, which was worth considerably less. He cracked that slab and sent it in again. The second time he got a PR-64. With that he called it quits and took and ate the loss.

BAJJERFAN · June 21, 2005 12:01AM

Its obvious that not ALL dealers are created equally in their ability to detect fraud or to grade coins. In this case you relied on his "special" expertise. I think you got hosed tho its hard to believe that the TPG could have missed by THAT much to start with.

PTVETTER · June 21, 2005 12:07AM

As has been said before you made the deal and you more than likly made money and you yourself had a chance to sent the coin in your self so its a done deal and you did own a niec coin.

Julian · June 21, 2005 12:09AM

I think that the dealer may have lied to me, but I am a big boy, and responsible for my actions, as a seller.

This is different from the cherrypicked bust half, because I relied on the cherrypicker's word about a fact. In this case, I relied upon a colleagues word, as an opinion.

partagas · June 21, 2005 12:10AM

Sometimes you hit the submission lotto and sometimes you lose. I would probably not do business with said dealer again based on his qoute "accurately graded". But its your own fault for not resubmitting the coin.

Plus why would he be so interested in the coin, after stating its fairly graded?

ritepath · June 21, 2005 12:18AM

fool me once shame on me....in this case at least.

291fifth · June 21, 2005 12:27AM

Someone is now going to get stuck with a coin that has "made its grade".

ziggy29 · June 21, 2005 12:28AM

<< Someone is now going to get stuck with a coin that has "made its grade". >>

It's the numismatic equivalent to the Peter Principle.

IrishMike · June 21, 2005 12:29AM

Yes I would feel cheated. Given the scenario that you just had it graded and you asked this well respected dealer in the series for his honest opinion and obviously he lied to you, then he has cheated you. You have relied on two opinions, the grading service and the dealer to arrive at the market value. Unless the dealer suddenly saw the light and change his mind, he is guilty of deception. This all happened to quickly to be a coincidence.

One can debate what responsibility you had in this deal but you can't deny that you relied on two respected opinions and got screwed. This is a reason that it is sometimes better to put a coin up in auction then trust a dealer to be fair with you.

csw · June 21, 2005 12:30AM

You were cheated if, and only if, the dealer deceived you, either by affirmatively misrepresenting his opinion or deliberately withholding material information -- here, that the coin was undergraded.

If, when the dealer initially offered his opinion, he honestly believed what he said, then you weren't "cheated."

topstuf · June 21, 2005 12:42AM

I did it to myself. Annoyed? Sure. But I should have kept current on the status of old "rattlers."

ss350camaro · June 21, 2005 1:18AM

<< Suppose you own a coin that you just slabbed. You show it to a leading dealer who has a reputation for having a great eye. You explain that you want to sell the coin but you think it might be undergraded. You ask for his opinion. He replies that he thinks the coin is accurately graded and expresses an interest in buying it. You negotiate a bid at roughly the market price based on its current grade. At the next show you see the coin in the same dealer's showcase. It is now graded two points higher and worth five times what you were paid. You confront the dealer. He says he changed his mind about the coin and decided to resubmit it. Do you think you were cheated? >>

of course, it's Human nature.

mgoodm3 · June 21, 2005 1:25AM

That dealer won't be getting any more money from me, as there's a good chance that he misrepresented his feelings about the coin.

morgannut2 · June 21, 2005 2:14AM

The dealer lied to me but I wasn't cheated. For the next 20 years, hell will freeze over before I do any business with him.

PerryHall · June 21, 2005 2:52AM

<< The dealer lied to me but I wasn't cheated. For the next 20 years, hell will freeze over before I do any business with him. >>

Plus I'd let everyone else know he's a lier and shouldn't be trusted. In this business reputation is everything and its a relatively small community. Word gets out soon enough.

relayer · June 21, 2005 3:16AM

Of course I was cheated. Afterall, I sold it to a coin dealer

Steve27 · June 21, 2005 3:20AM

"Do you think you were cheated? "

Yes, you relied on his expertise in order to make your decision and he lied to you.

jcping · June 21, 2005 3:24AM

> I think that the dealer may have lied to me, but I am a big boy, and responsible for my actions, as a seller.

Best statement.

And I won't sell any coin to the dealer anymore.

mozin · June 21, 2005 4:46AM

<< I think that the dealer may have lied to me, but I am a big boy, and responsible for my actions, as a seller. >>

Well worded.

Since this discussion was part of a sales pitch to sell the coin I should not be surprised to hear the potential buyer downgrade the coin a little. Hard to believe the selling dealer really expected an honest grade assessment from a potential buyer.

michael · June 21, 2005 2:02PM

no but dealer is a liar and a swine

Gator5220 · June 21, 2005 2:11PM

No, but I would feel cheated. Lesson learned.

Coin Finder · June 21, 2005 2:27PM

No way. You asked the dealers opinion and he gave it. You made the deal. He wasnt holding a gun to your fricken head. To bad. Now you have just learned something.

Schools out baby!

Tbig

PerryHall · June 21, 2005 6:04PM

<< No way. You asked the dealers opinion and he gave it. You made the deal. He wasnt holding a gun to your fricken head. To bad. Now you have just learned something.

Schools out baby!

Tbig >>

No. He didn't give his opinion. He lied to you!!! His opinion was: "This coin is undergraded so I'll rip it and get an easy upgrade." I'd let everyone know what a scumbag he is and do all I can to ruin his reputation.

Trime · June 21, 2005 7:15PM

The responses to this hypothetical help define the attitudes of the business.
There is no recourse here. The coin was sold with no promises to keep it in its holder.
However, the seller asked a professional for an opinion and trusted him for an honest answer. It is likely that he was deceived.
I don't like to be deceived and would not interact with this dealer again. At the risk of being a Polyanna, I believe there are dealers that are trustworthy. Until the majority are clearly so, the business ( er Profession) will not have the respect it deserves.

ddink · June 21, 2005 11:06PM

You were most definitely cheated, but it is your own fault since you should have either spent the $30 to resubmit, or at least gotten a second opinion.

BAJJERFAN · June 22, 2005 12:00AM

<>

I wonder how many who say and believe that have never been hosed on a coin deal and aren't ever likely to be hosed again.

PerryHall · June 22, 2005 12:04AM

<< You were most definitely cheated, but it is your own fault since you should have either spent the $30 to resubmit, or at least gotten a second opinion. >>

Sounds like blame the victim.

CalGold · June 22, 2005 6:58AM

He took a shot and hit big. That's how dealers make money isn't it?

CG

MrEureka · June 22, 2005 10:26AM

Of course I was cheated. Afterall, I sold it to a coin dealer

coinguy1 · June 22, 2005 10:34AM

<< He says he changed his mind about the coin and decided to resubmit it. Do you think you were cheated? >>

Whether you were "cheated" or not, under those circumstances, the dealer should have told you if/when he changed his mind and asked what you wanted to do about it.

MrEureka · June 22, 2005 10:43AM

It doesn't sound like the seller and the buyer had any significant pre-existing relationship. How can the seller possibly expect a straight answer when he asks for a grading opinion on a coin he is trying to sell? It's like asking "Before I shop this around the floor, tell me the absolute most you will pay?" or "Have you ever cheated on your taxes" or "Do you still beat your wife?" It's an unfair question and it begs for an unfair answer. No, the seller was not cheated. He began negotiating the minute he opened his mouth and he got outnegotiated. (Man, am I harsh!)

In the future, I would recommend that the seller align his interests with the dealer before asking questions. There are an infinite number of ways to do that, but that's a topic for another thread.

coinguy1 · June 22, 2005 10:47AM

<< It's an unfair question and it begs for an unfair answer. >>

Andy, I disagree. If the seller was being unfair, he wasn't aware of it. The dealer on the other hand...

Unintentional unfairness doesn't "beg for" or deserve intentional unfairness.

Newmismatist · June 22, 2005 11:09AM

In the legal sense, NO, Ethically, there is that appearance, but there are not enough facts to give an accurate answer. For example, maybe the dealer "expert" (Dealer "A") honestly believed it not to be upgradeable, but showed it to another upgrader who salivated and offered too much for the coin - the first dealer may well have reassessed his opinion based on this new opinion - someone willing to put his $$ on the table to buy what he (the new Upgrader) thought was a lock upgrade. Or maybe, forggy passed his magic wand over the coin (jeweluster or someother magic elixer) and the coin "magically got "better". Happens sometimes! So the fact that it got upgraded is insufficient evidence to prove a "Cheating" heart. But to the collector seller, he'll never believe otherwise as preception is reality, at least as to this end result. That said, the "person" that the collector SHOULD have asked is the TPGS of his choice - had he paid his "fee" for their opinion, he might have been pleasantly surprised.

MrEureka · June 22, 2005 11:09AM

If the seller was being unfair, he wasn't aware of it.

Mark - I don't doubt that the seller didn't realize what he was doing. In fact, most people don't know what they are doing when they open their mouths. But the seller told a potential buyer that he was looking to sell the coin and he asked (in effect) what he could get for it. That is the beginning of a negotiation, not the beginning of a free consultation service.

coinguy1 · June 22, 2005 12:28PM

<< Mark - I don't doubt that the seller didn't realize what he was doing. In fact, most people don't know what they are doing when they open their mouths. But the seller told a potential buyer that he was looking to sell the coin and he asked (in effect) what he could get for it. That is the beginning of a negotiation, not the beginning of a free consultation service. >>

But Andy, previously you said in part:

<< You show it to a leading dealer who has a reputation for having a great eye. You explain that you want to sell the coin but you think it might be undergraded. You ask for his opinion. He replies that he thinks the coin is accurately graded and expresses an interest in buying it. >>

I don't think the two equate.

If the dealer isn't willing to give an honest opinion regarding grade (or, as you put it, "a free consultation service") he should say so. But, if he does proceed and gives an opinion under such circumstances, he needs to be honest about it.

Hypothetical #16 - Undergraded Slab

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