Posts: 6685 Joined: Oct 2001 Saturday May 21, 2005 11:48 AM
The search for the finest has been around for a long time and will continue to be around. I find myself willingly paying large sums for distinct quality differences in coins.
The trick is not to pay large sums for indistinct differences!
Posts: 751 Joined: Aug 2004 Saturday May 21, 2005 11:36 AM
Since I have 1st hand experience regarding this issue, I can personally state that buying top pop moderns (TPM's) is like holding a hot potato. Many dealers hype the low pops only to themselves be responsible for future pop increases. Sort of like a broker hyping a stock & then taking direct action that makes the value of it go down. Am I the only one to see the conflict here?
AS PER THE ABOVE A FANTASTIC OBSERVATION
ALSO IT WOULD NOT SURPRISE ME to find THAT ONE OF THESE SELLERS OF THESE HOT POTATOS BUYS SUPERB AND RARE 19th CENTURY COINS WHILE SELLING and making THE POTATOES i guess actions speak louder than words
know that there are those that disagree with me. That is OK - to each his own. But I have noticed that most that disagree are either 1) Dealers that are hyping the 70dcams or 2) Registry set owners that are trying to protect their "investment".
oh this is not a bashing thread for any coins but for cornering averise gluttony and piggishness
but myself i think it is really unfair and not responsible to treat your fellow man this way
to submit raw coins that are available raw and in suberb grade by the hundreds and even thousands get them in holders and sell them for 10 50 100 1000? times the price of the coin raw and if the coin is broken out of the holder it loses 50% 80% 99%?? of its value
and even if the coin gets a gaga grade there are many that basically really close to the gaga coin in the holder that are raw and only a few dollars in price
coins is capitalism in its rawest form
nothing wrong or illegal with that
but i gots to sleep at night and live with myself
i want the hobby to improve and also flurish i want some ethics and integrity and responsiblity
and i like the golden rule do unto others as you would like them to do unto you
i personally love all coins and i think this is just not right to do
you are here in this hobby to treat people right......... would you like your mother or daughter or relative or your loved ones or whomever treated as such??
and i am curious these carnival barkers and hawkers on here ................ well this is for another thread
write a book roadrunner and they wiull buy it and I WILL BUY IT
if only one person is made aware and helped then it would have been worth it >>
There is no contribution to a thread when all you can do is agree with something.
This is especially true when there have been counterarguments made and you do nothing to refute these arguments.
While modern bashing may be a time honored tradition for some people it would be nice to see it done with some real thought behind it instead of this sort of crap.
Folks that don't collect moderns think holdered high-grade moderns are a waste of collector money. Thats fine, one mans trash and all that. Michael goes beyond that in his posts and calls those who invest time, energy, and capital to holder the moderns worth submitting unethical, irresponsible opportunists. He also implies that the people who collect them are not smart enough to make a good decision regarding their value. Even though going to the local shop and buying a perfectly acceptable example of each particular date/mm and submitting it themselves costs less than $20, for some reason these folks insist on paying rediculous premiums to these unscrupulous opportunists. Surely there must be a piece of this puzzle thats not been revealed? Are they buying quality, time and capital invested, grading experience, convenience? There must be something that drives good collectors to deal with this scourge? How could so many be so deceived?
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Great thread! Me, I love the moderm proof "crap". That is Lincoln cent proofs. I have them all, BUT in reasonable grades. I will NOT pay crazy prices for any modern coin. To me it is just having a nice example of a given date. I have that and it hasn't cost me much for my complete Memorial proof set. Now, I also have a truly rare Lincoln proof also, the 1909VDB matte proof. For all those collectors who own some of these so called "top pop" modern Lincolns, would you trade one for a true rarity if you didn't have it in your collection? To me it is much more important to have a complete collection including tough to get scarce coins at average grades, than to have the highest graded common coins. Grades are subjective and subject to change. Rarity is fact and cannot be added to. JMHO. Steve
This is a wonderful Thread. I suggest the problem is with Registry Set ego's and competition, NOT collecting some very pretty moderns. I have a few moderns, and enjoyed collecting them raw and sending them in. Improves the "eye" if nothing else.
As to Stewart's original question, I care about having a 67/68/69 in my collection because it shows I still have the eye to find almost perfect moderns. I could care less about where I rank in the registry. If I did, I would update when I made an upgrade, not 6 months later. I haven't made all the top pops in my registry sets, but I've reached the point where a submission without at least one top pop is a disappointment.
I collect on a tight budget. Making top pops allows me to trade for ones that I recognize as rarities. I won't pay 10x for the next grade, but I might sell or trade 10 top pops to acquire that next grade. I will also shop shows for 66/67's with eye appeal that I can admire as under grades. Beautiful coins can be found, in any grade or company's holder, at bargain prices.
Steve asked a great question. Would I trade my top pops for a true rarity. In a heartbeat. I've already done it. I've very few under grades that I'm ashamed to use as registry set replacements. I'm sure if I stick to it long enough, I'll make another pop 1. Making higher pop numbers just takes persistence.
It really isn't a bad thread. I picked up a few pieces today, a nice AU 1911 $5, a very nice AU 1916 Barber quarter, and smoking dcam 56 and 61 Washingtons for a little less than $200 at one of the local shops. I suppose if I were an opportunist, I'd holder the Barber and hammer some newbie. I think I'll keep the Washingtons.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I'm going to have to agree with "michael" on this one. I don't think he has anything against modern stuff, per se, and neither do I. In fact, I don't really disagree that some moderns end up as 68's, 69's, or 70's. The think that I find ridiculous (in agreement with michael) is the stupid multiples a 69 and especially a 70 goes for over a 68 or less. These coins were minted in the tens or hundreds of millions.
Typically millions of any given mint and proof sets are sold. Many, if not most (especially in proof), of these likely represent superb gem quality material. The average collector would have an extremely difficult time telling the difference between any of the ultra high grades. When they're paying a small fortune for an MS70 or PF70 they're essentially paying for someone else's opinion and a piece of plastic with a label on it.
Michael is 100% correct; if you break that coin out of the holder, how much is it worth then? If you handed it over to a dealer just try convincing him he should pay huge dollars for a coin you say came out of a 69 or 70 holder. Forget it. You know what it looks like? It probably looks like a really nice 66 or 67. That's what it's ultimately worth out of the holder. That piece of plastic is worth a small fortune, not the coin. The coin looks much like many of its thousands, tens of thousands, millions, whatever of other brethren.
I've already heard rumblings from various collectors and dealers that there's a "softening" occuring in the high-grade modern market. I'm not surprised and I think it will snowball. The pops aren't shrinking; they're growing by the day. The Registry helps keeps this fad at an artificial high. If you were to simply buy the coin for it's beauty and not someone else's opinion and piece of plastic, a nice 66 or 67 is quite adequate because it'll be unlikely you'll ever see the difference in higher grades and you'll save a small fortune. I think collectors will begin to smarten up. And, if they don't....oh, well. It doesn't hurt me. I have no intention of chasing a high-grade labeled piece of plastic wrapping around a pretty coin.
I wouldn't buy any overpriced modern crap, but if someone wishes to pay $1000 for an MS-68 specimen, I can see where the business of trying to "make" modern crap is appealing!
<< <i>I'm going to have to agree with "michael" on this one. I don't think he has anything against modern stuff, per se, and neither do I. In fact, I don't really disagree that some moderns end up as 68's, 69's, or 70's. The think that I find ridiculous (in agreement with michael) is the stupid multiples a 69 and especially a 70 goes for over a 68 or less. These coins were minted in the tens or hundreds of millions. >>
Most of the mint state grades do not exist above MS-68 so this argument simply doesn't apply to them. Where there is a big difference in price for either mints or proofs it is be- cause the higher grades are scarcer. There were over 150 million 1969 quarters minted but if you go to look for one then you simply won't find it. I've been looking for this roll since 1972 and have yet to find one but if I found 100 rolls today from a hundred different sources there would probably not be a single coin above MS-65. Those who think all these coins are easy should simply go out and look for one. Even try finding one in circulation. It will be eye opening.
<< <i> Typically millions of any given mint and proof sets are sold. Many, if not most (especially in proof), of these likely represent superb gem quality material. The average collector would have an extremely difficult time telling the difference between any of the ultra high grades. When they're paying a small fortune for an MS70 or PF70 they're essentially paying for someone else's opinion and a piece of plastic with a label on it. >>
Yes, there have been millions of nearly every mint and proof set minted and there have been millions of most cut up and busted because there was no demand for these. Proof sets sold for as little as 50% over face and mint sets foir 15% under face!! How many of these will be sold to dealers when they have to take their profits out of these prices. Look at the continuing and high number of proof coins coming out of circulation. These have but one source and this source is exhausable. Mint sets were made in smaller numbers but the attrition may be even higher. Laugh as you will but the simple fact is that a few million dollars could completely buy almost every raw mint state coin on the market including the junk and the gem. The day will come that the newbies have acquired them all.
<< <i> Michael is 100% correct; if you break that coin out of the holder, how much is it worth then? If you handed it over to a dealer just try convincing him he should pay huge dollars for a coin you say came out of a 69 or 70 holder. Forget it. You know what it looks like? It probably looks like a really nice 66 or 67. That's what it's ultimately worth out of the holder. That piece of plastic is worth a small fortune, not the coin. The coin looks much like many of its thousands, tens of thousands, millions, whatever of other brethren. >>
There are millions of modern collectors who never even heard of a slab. Some of these are at- tempting gem sets. Rare gem moderns do bring strong prices out of the holder while common moderns in high grade really are very difficult to get much of their value unless they are slabbed. Many classic coins don't do well out of their holders either even though there are large numbers of classic experts.
If you think there's no difference between a choice and gem 1969 quarter then you simply haven't looked. There is a vast spread in quality among most mint state moderns and in many cases al- most all examples will lie toward the lower end of the spread.
<< <i> I've already heard rumblings from various collectors and dealers that there's a "softening" occuring in the high-grade modern market. I'm not surprised and I think it will snowball. The pops aren't shrinking; they're growing by the day. The Registry helps keeps this fad at an artificial high. If you were to simply buy the coin for it's beauty and not someone else's opinion and piece of plastic, a nice 66 or 67 is quite adequate because it'll be unlikely you'll ever see the difference in higher grades and you'll save a small fortune. I think collectors will begin to smarten up. And, if they don't....oh, well. It doesn't hurt me. I have no intention of chasing a high-grade labeled piece of plastic wrapping around a pretty coin. >>
This can only be a fad if its true that the United States has seen its best days and it's a long slow fall into obscurity. These are US coins whether they are made of zinc or platinum. The current fad is to bash these coins and those who sell and collect them.
So long as this fad and country persists they should have a bright future.
<< <i>The think that I find ridiculous (in agreement with michael) is the stupid multiples a 69 and especially a 70 goes for over a 68 or less. >>
Sort of like toned Morgans that bring 50, 60 or even 100 times Greysheet. Oh, and there are plenty of examples of "classic" coins that have enormous multiples for a one point bump. This is not unique to moderns.
<< <i>Michael is 100% correct; if you break that coin out of the holder, how much is it worth then? If you handed it over to a dealer just try convincing him he should pay huge dollars for a coin you say came out of a 69 or 70 holder. Forget it. >>
Try that with any coin and you can bet your ass that the same thing will happen. If it's raw you ain't going to get as much for it from the typical dealer whether the coin is 20 years old or 200 years old. It's a fact of life in this market that "if it's raw, there must be something wrong with it."
The bottom line is simple: Those of you who think there are zillions of these pop tops out there growing on trees - make some! Hell, it must be easy, so do it and prove your point.
Russ, there are two kinds of people in the world, musicians.....and critics. Its much easier to be a critic. Lots of collectors are set builders. Most who look at any price guide for most classic series see stoppers.....coins they'll never buy at the current price in a grade they think acceptable. They choose something more realistic. There are collectors in that group that learn to recognize quality. If they begin to seriously chase quality, they learn why high-grade moderns are priced the way they are. The posters to this and many threads like this one that don't understand how that works will be blabbing the same dire warnings they have since I came here four years ago. The cool thing about the collector base growing more experienced is that they actually learn to "make" the common stuff themselves, and learn to value their time in relation to the price/difficulty of the coins they can't "make". The whole point of modern pricing is that it provides an avenue through which to study, participate, build sets, and share comraderie without dedicating the dollars required to complete ANY classic series in similar grade. They trade rarity for quality. Those that value absolute rarity hate that choice. If the coin market goes in the crapper tomorrow, the modern guys will loose very little. Many classic guys will lose their retirement. That's just my opinion, and not intended to change any minds.
There are currently 4 Barber proof sets registered at PCGS, and only 172 Kennedy proof sets.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
There's a market out there of buyers who have more faith then brains. If they never find out the truth they'll stick around a little longer. But true collectors want markfree, fully struck posibly EDS modern coins! If the coin has a noticeable nick in any of the focal areas, it's not a 67 coin, given the fact it is fully struck! Call me crazy but I'll take an EDS coin with a nick on the cheek anyday, any grade 64 and up!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>There's a market out there of buyers who have more faith then brains. If they never find out the truth they'll stick around a little longer. But true collectors want markfree, fully struck posibly EDS modern coins! If the coin has a noticeable nick in any of the focal areas, it's not a 67 coin, given the fact it is fully struck! Call me crazy but I'll take an EDS coin with a nick on the cheek anyday, any grade 64 and up!
Leo >>
This has always been a matter of personal preference and it is entirely possible that some of the highly graded modern coins will fall into disfavor as time goes by. It is quite likely that collectors will insist on quality of strike in these to a much greater extent than collectors of the older coins have. So many of the moderns are horribly struck from tired and worn dies which weren't even well centered to start with. The circulation coins are likely to be a first step for many of the modern collectors and these coins are often so terribly struck they'll still look wrong when they're in AG. People who "grow up" looking for nice coins among these are likely to carry this perspective into other areas and that would include upgrading.
Some people don't like the designations because they over emphasize some specific part of the strike but it seems that at least these coins have something well-struck and that's better than the majority of most issues.
...They trade rarity for quality. Those that value absolute rarity hate that choice.
Excellent point, Don. I am a rarity freak and would sacrifice rarity for quality any day of the week. I would rather have an 1854-S quarter eagle in Good-6, like this one:
than the unique (hypothetical) 1964 Kennedy AH PCGS Proof-70 DCAM, which would probably cost about the same.
If the coin market goes in the crapper tomorrow, the modern guys will loose very little. Many classic guys will lose their retirement. That's just my opinion, and not intended to change any minds.
I will not attempt to change your opinion, but for many of us collectors (modern and classic), coins and retirement financing don't mix. Collectors of coins, both modern and classic, will share the losses. Granted, if a collector's modern coins are all "made", the paper loss will not be as great, but making coins take time, and time has value.
<< <i>than the unique (hypothetical) 1964 Kennedy AH PCGS Proof-70 DCAM, which would probably cost about the same. >>
There will never be a PR70DCAM Accented Hair graded by PCGS, ever. The pitting of the shield on the reverse precludes the coin from ever receiving the perfect grade. It may not even be possible to ever get a PR69DCAM out of PCGS, but I'm sure as hell going to keep trying!
Robert, you're a smart man, and I fully agree. I also appreciate your example.
Leo, I hate mushy too. Quality is a personal definition, and it doesn't always agree with a number on a holder. I believe that was Stewart's original point, and I fully agree.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Typically millions of any given mint and proof sets are sold. Many, if not most (especially in proof), of these likely represent superb gem quality material. The average collector would have an extremely difficult time telling the difference between any of the ultra high grades. When they're paying a small fortune for an MS70 or PF70 they're essentially paying for someone else's opinion and a piece of plastic with a label on it.
The average collector would have an extremely difficult time telling the difference between any of the ultra high grades.
Thats patently untrue. Spotting PR69 coins is in fact easier than any other single grade point. They're essentially flawless, and ANY imperfection jumps out like a scratch in the field of a dmpl Morgan. Predicting whether the services will 9 an 8 coin (which they all occasionally do) is a little harder.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Typically millions of any given mint and proof sets are sold. Many, if not most (especially in proof), of these likely represent superb gem quality material. The average collector would have an extremely difficult time telling the difference between any of the ultra high grades. When they're paying a small fortune for an MS70 or PF70 they're essentially paying for someone else's opinion and a piece of plastic with a label on it.
Amen.
Jack >>
Yes, there have been millions of nearly every mint and proof set minted and there have been millions of most cut up and busted because there was no demand for these. Proof sets sold for as little as 50% over face and mint sets for 15% under face!! How many of these will be sold to dealers when they have to take their profits out of these prices. Look at the continuing and high number of proof coins coming out of circulation. These have but one source and this source is exhausable. Mint sets were made in smaller numbers but the attrition may be even higher. Laugh as you will but the simple fact is that a few million dollars could completely buy almost every raw mint state coin on the market including the junk and the gem. The day will come that the newbies have acquired them all.
OK, if you insist then sure I'll play along with this for a minute. Let's assume that every mint and proof set made in the last couple generations still exists and that they look ex- actly the same as they did the day they left the mint. Where do you get your 1971-D Ike? These were not in any of the two million mint sets made. How about a 1983-D dime? How about a 1976-D DDO quarter? Well guess what, there aren't rolls of all this material. Try coming up with a roll of '69 quarters that isn't from a mint set. Hell, try coming up with a nice attractive '69 dime. This should be pretty easy if all the 1.8 million mint sets are still around, and if they really were you'd still have a lot of trouble since they aren't all that easy.
Have you ever tried finding nice Lincolns from the mid to late '70's. There are still lots of these mint sets and these can be found in rolls, thousands and thousands of rolls. The roll coins are badly struck and the mint set coins are banged up. It really doesn't matter how many mint sets still exist if they are nearly all banged up. Nor does it matter how many rolls there are if the coins are mushy.
OK, still figure all these are just there for the picking. Try this one on for size: Every single 1968 cent in mint sets is damaged by carbon spots. OK, maybe I'm wrong on this, I've only spot checked about 860 mint sets. All these coins had carbon spots on both sides except three which had them on only one side.
Now let's get back down to the real world. In the real world most of the '68 mint sets have been destroyed anyway. This may matter little for the cents since they are damaged and there are BU rolls of these. What about '68 quarters though. There aren't rolls. It can be tough to find singles of this coin and these invariably come from mint sets. The reason most of these coins appear to be so common is because there is very little demand. Perhaps this will continue indefinitely but if you ignore these coins you are assuring that they'll continue to get even scarcer.
You are also making a bet of sorts. You are betting at least that these coins are not collectible and if that ever changes you can pick them up cheap should you desire.
Fine. I'm betting the other way. If you can give me a cogent argument of what makes me wrong then I'd love to hear it so I can quit wasting my time.
Comments
tradedollarnut
Master Collector
Posts: 6685
Joined: Oct 2001
Saturday May 21, 2005 11:48 AM
The search for the finest has been around for a long time and will continue to be around. I find myself willingly paying large sums for distinct quality differences in coins.
The trick is not to pay large sums for indistinct differences!
-------------------------
Trade Dollar Website
RBinTex
Veteran
Posts: 751
Joined: Aug 2004
Saturday May 21, 2005 11:36 AM
Since I have 1st hand experience regarding this issue, I can personally state that buying top pop moderns (TPM's) is like holding a hot potato. Many dealers hype the low pops only to themselves be responsible for future pop increases. Sort of like a broker hyping a stock & then taking direct action that makes the value of it go down. Am I the only one to see the conflict here?
AS PER THE ABOVE A FANTASTIC OBSERVATION
ALSO IT WOULD NOT SURPRISE ME to find THAT ONE OF THESE SELLERS OF THESE HOT POTATOS BUYS SUPERB AND RARE 19th CENTURY COINS WHILE SELLING and making THE POTATOES i guess actions speak louder than words
but myself i think it is really unfair and not responsible to treat your fellow man this way
to submit raw coins that are available raw and in suberb grade by the hundreds and even thousands get them in holders and sell them for 10 50 100 1000? times the price of the coin raw and if the coin is broken out of the holder it loses 50% 80% 99%?? of its value
and even if the coin gets a gaga grade there are many that basically really close to the gaga coin in the holder that are raw and only a few dollars in price
coins is capitalism in its rawest form
nothing wrong or illegal with that
but i gots to sleep at night and live with myself
i want the hobby to improve and also flurish i want some ethics and integrity and responsiblity
and i like the golden rule do unto others as you would like them to do unto you
i personally love all coins and i think this is just not right to do
you are here in this hobby to treat people right......... would you like your mother or daughter or relative or your loved ones or whomever treated as such??
and i am curious these carnival barkers and hawkers on here ................ well this is for another thread
<< <i>
write a book roadrunner and they wiull buy it and I WILL BUY IT
if only one person is made aware and helped then it would have been worth it >>
There is no contribution to a thread when all you can do is agree with something.
This is especially true when there have been counterarguments made and you do nothing
to refute these arguments.
While modern bashing may be a time honored tradition for some people it would be nice to
see it done with some real thought behind it instead of this sort of crap.
this proves my point as to my posts you have proved them
next time i will ask your kind permission of how i can conduct myself
i did not know you where the thought police or the judger of people
you must be the chief judge
oh and thanks for the compliment
your fav response i will give you on here
please see below
<< <i>i see you are angry and spew hatred and insults but it is a free speech place on here
this proves my point as to my posts you have proved them
next time i will ask your kind permission of how i can conduct myself
i did not know you where the thought police or the judger of people
you must be the chief judge
oh and thanks for the compliment
I suppose thought like this is what one gets when he engages a caricature.
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
<< <i>Michael - Lurk or go to bed.
Mike >>
In michael's own words - - - LOL!
<< <i>Michael - Lurk or go to bed.
Mike >>
Or, learn how to use the "quote" button!
<< <i>That was a great invention for separating money from people who have too much of it! >>
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
As to Stewart's original question, I care about having a 67/68/69 in my collection because it shows I still have the eye to find almost perfect moderns. I could care less about where I rank in the registry. If I did, I would update when I made an upgrade, not 6 months later. I haven't made all the top pops in my registry sets, but I've reached the point where a submission without at least one top pop is a disappointment.
I collect on a tight budget. Making top pops allows me to trade for ones that I recognize as rarities. I won't pay 10x for the next grade, but I might sell or trade 10 top pops to acquire that next grade. I will also shop shows for 66/67's with eye appeal that I can admire as under grades. Beautiful coins can be found, in any grade or company's holder, at bargain prices.
Steve asked a great question. Would I trade my top pops for a true rarity. In a heartbeat. I've already done it. I've very few under grades that I'm ashamed to use as registry set replacements. I'm sure if I stick to it long enough, I'll make another pop 1. Making higher pop numbers just takes persistence.
David
<< <i>Folks that don't collect moderns think holdered high-grade moderns are a waste of collector money. >>
And, then make statements like this:
<< <i>to submit raw coins that are available raw and in suberb grade by the hundreds and even thousands >>
To demonstrate to moderns collectors just how clueless they are.
Russ, NCNE
Dennis
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Dennis
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and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Typically millions of any given mint and proof sets are sold. Many, if not most (especially in proof), of these likely represent superb gem quality material. The average collector would have an extremely difficult time telling the difference between any of the ultra high grades. When they're paying a small fortune for an MS70 or PF70 they're essentially paying for someone else's opinion and a piece of plastic with a label on it.
Michael is 100% correct; if you break that coin out of the holder, how much is it worth then? If you handed it over to a dealer just try convincing him he should pay huge dollars for a coin you say came out of a 69 or 70 holder. Forget it. You know what it looks like? It probably looks like a really nice 66 or 67. That's what it's ultimately worth out of the holder. That piece of plastic is worth a small fortune, not the coin. The coin looks much like many of its thousands, tens of thousands, millions, whatever of other brethren.
I've already heard rumblings from various collectors and dealers that there's a "softening" occuring in the high-grade modern market. I'm not surprised and I think it will snowball. The pops aren't shrinking; they're growing by the day. The Registry helps keeps this fad at an artificial high. If you were to simply buy the coin for it's beauty and not someone else's opinion and piece of plastic, a nice 66 or 67 is quite adequate because it'll be unlikely you'll ever see the difference in higher grades and you'll save a small fortune. I think collectors will begin to smarten up. And, if they don't....oh, well. It doesn't hurt me. I have no intention of chasing a high-grade labeled piece of plastic wrapping around a pretty coin.
<< <i>I'm going to have to agree with "michael" on this one. I don't think he has anything against modern stuff, per se, and neither do I. In fact, I don't really disagree that some moderns end up as 68's, 69's, or 70's. The think that I find ridiculous (in agreement with michael) is the stupid multiples a 69 and especially a 70 goes for over a 68 or less. These coins were minted in the tens or hundreds of millions. >>
Most of the mint state grades do not exist above MS-68 so this argument simply doesn't
apply to them. Where there is a big difference in price for either mints or proofs it is be-
cause the higher grades are scarcer. There were over 150 million 1969 quarters minted
but if you go to look for one then you simply won't find it. I've been looking for this roll
since 1972 and have yet to find one but if I found 100 rolls today from a hundred different
sources there would probably not be a single coin above MS-65. Those who think all these
coins are easy should simply go out and look for one. Even try finding one in circulation. It
will be eye opening.
<< <i>
Typically millions of any given mint and proof sets are sold. Many, if not most (especially in proof), of these likely represent superb gem quality material. The average collector would have an extremely difficult time telling the difference between any of the ultra high grades. When they're paying a small fortune for an MS70 or PF70 they're essentially paying for someone else's opinion and a piece of plastic with a label on it. >>
Yes, there have been millions of nearly every mint and proof set minted and there have been
millions of most cut up and busted because there was no demand for these. Proof sets sold
for as little as 50% over face and mint sets foir 15% under face!! How many of these will be
sold to dealers when they have to take their profits out of these prices. Look at the continuing
and high number of proof coins coming out of circulation. These have but one source and this
source is exhausable. Mint sets were made in smaller numbers but the attrition may be even
higher. Laugh as you will but the simple fact is that a few million dollars could completely buy
almost every raw mint state coin on the market including the junk and the gem. The day will
come that the newbies have acquired them all.
<< <i>
Michael is 100% correct; if you break that coin out of the holder, how much is it worth then? If you handed it over to a dealer just try convincing him he should pay huge dollars for a coin you say came out of a 69 or 70 holder. Forget it. You know what it looks like? It probably looks like a really nice 66 or 67. That's what it's ultimately worth out of the holder. That piece of plastic is worth a small fortune, not the coin. The coin looks much like many of its thousands, tens of thousands, millions, whatever of other brethren. >>
There are millions of modern collectors who never even heard of a slab. Some of these are at-
tempting gem sets. Rare gem moderns do bring strong prices out of the holder while common
moderns in high grade really are very difficult to get much of their value unless they are slabbed.
Many classic coins don't do well out of their holders either even though there are large numbers
of classic experts.
If you think there's no difference between a choice and gem 1969 quarter then you simply haven't
looked. There is a vast spread in quality among most mint state moderns and in many cases al-
most all examples will lie toward the lower end of the spread.
<< <i>
I've already heard rumblings from various collectors and dealers that there's a "softening" occuring in the high-grade modern market. I'm not surprised and I think it will snowball. The pops aren't shrinking; they're growing by the day. The Registry helps keeps this fad at an artificial high. If you were to simply buy the coin for it's beauty and not someone else's opinion and piece of plastic, a nice 66 or 67 is quite adequate because it'll be unlikely you'll ever see the difference in higher grades and you'll save a small fortune. I think collectors will begin to smarten up. And, if they don't....oh, well. It doesn't hurt me. I have no intention of chasing a high-grade labeled piece of plastic wrapping around a pretty coin. >>
This can only be a fad if its true that the United States has seen its best days and it's a long slow
fall into obscurity. These are US coins whether they are made of zinc or platinum. The current fad
is to bash these coins and those who sell and collect them.
So long as this fad and country persists they should have a bright future.
<< <i>The think that I find ridiculous (in agreement with michael) is the stupid multiples a 69 and especially a 70 goes for over a 68 or less. >>
Sort of like toned Morgans that bring 50, 60 or even 100 times Greysheet. Oh, and there are plenty of examples of "classic" coins that have enormous multiples for a one point bump. This is not unique to moderns.
<< <i>Michael is 100% correct; if you break that coin out of the holder, how much is it worth then? If you handed it over to a dealer just try convincing him he should pay huge dollars for a coin you say came out of a 69 or 70 holder. Forget it. >>
Try that with any coin and you can bet your ass that the same thing will happen. If it's raw you ain't going to get as much for it from the typical dealer whether the coin is 20 years old or 200 years old. It's a fact of life in this market that "if it's raw, there must be something wrong with it."
The bottom line is simple: Those of you who think there are zillions of these pop tops out there growing on trees - make some! Hell, it must be easy, so do it and prove your point.
Russ, NCNE
There are currently 4 Barber proof sets registered at PCGS, and only 172 Kennedy proof sets.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
It does if you are trying to make a living with it.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>There's a market out there of buyers who have more faith then brains. If they never find out the truth they'll stick around a little longer. But true collectors want markfree, fully struck posibly EDS modern coins! If the coin has a noticeable nick in any of the focal areas, it's not a 67 coin, given the fact it is fully struck! Call me crazy but I'll take an EDS coin with a nick on the cheek anyday, any grade 64 and up!
Leo >>
This has always been a matter of personal preference and it is entirely possible that
some of the highly graded modern coins will fall into disfavor as time goes by. It is quite
likely that collectors will insist on quality of strike in these to a much greater extent than
collectors of the older coins have. So many of the moderns are horribly struck from tired
and worn dies which weren't even well centered to start with. The circulation coins are
likely to be a first step for many of the modern collectors and these coins are often so
terribly struck they'll still look wrong when they're in AG. People who "grow up" looking
for nice coins among these are likely to carry this perspective into other areas and that
would include upgrading.
Some people don't like the designations because they over emphasize some specific
part of the strike but it seems that at least these coins have something well-struck and
that's better than the majority of most issues.
Excellent point, Don. I am a rarity freak and would sacrifice rarity for quality any day of the week. I would rather have an 1854-S quarter eagle in Good-6, like this one:
than the unique (hypothetical) 1964 Kennedy AH PCGS Proof-70 DCAM, which would probably cost about the same.
If the coin market goes in the crapper tomorrow, the modern guys will loose very little. Many classic guys will lose their retirement. That's just my opinion, and not intended to change any minds.
I will not attempt to change your opinion, but for many of us collectors (modern and classic), coins and retirement financing don't mix. Collectors of coins, both modern and classic, will share the losses. Granted, if a collector's modern coins are all "made", the paper loss will not be as great, but making coins take time, and time has value.
<< <i>than the unique (hypothetical) 1964 Kennedy AH PCGS Proof-70 DCAM, which would probably cost about the same. >>
There will never be a PR70DCAM Accented Hair graded by PCGS, ever. The pitting of the shield on the reverse precludes the coin from ever receiving the perfect grade. It may not even be possible to ever get a PR69DCAM out of PCGS, but I'm sure as hell going to keep trying!
Russ, NCNE
Robert, you're a smart man, and I fully agree. I also appreciate your example.
Leo,
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Chris.
Typically millions of any given mint and proof sets are sold. Many, if not most (especially in proof), of these likely represent superb gem quality material. The average collector would have an extremely difficult time telling the difference between any of the ultra high grades. When they're paying a small fortune for an MS70 or PF70 they're essentially paying for someone else's opinion and a piece of plastic with a label on it.
Amen.
Jack
<< <i>Granted, if a collector's modern coins are all "made", the paper loss will not be as great, but making coins take time, and time has value. >>
Tell me about it, friend.
Thats patently untrue. Spotting PR69 coins is in fact easier than any other single grade point. They're essentially flawless, and ANY imperfection jumps out like a scratch in the field of a dmpl Morgan. Predicting whether the services will 9 an 8 coin (which they all occasionally do) is a little harder.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Typically millions of any given mint and proof sets are sold. Many, if not most (especially in proof), of these likely represent superb gem quality material. The average collector would have an extremely difficult time telling the difference between any of the ultra high grades. When they're paying a small fortune for an MS70 or PF70 they're essentially paying for someone else's opinion and a piece of plastic with a label on it.
Amen.
Jack >>
Yes, there have been millions of nearly every mint and proof set minted and there have been
millions of most cut up and busted because there was no demand for these. Proof sets sold
for as little as 50% over face and mint sets for 15% under face!! How many of these will be
sold to dealers when they have to take their profits out of these prices. Look at the continuing
and high number of proof coins coming out of circulation. These have but one source and this
source is exhausable. Mint sets were made in smaller numbers but the attrition may be even
higher. Laugh as you will but the simple fact is that a few million dollars could completely buy
almost every raw mint state coin on the market including the junk and the gem. The day will
come that the newbies have acquired them all.
OK, if you insist then sure I'll play along with this for a minute. Let's assume that every
mint and proof set made in the last couple generations still exists and that they look ex-
actly the same as they did the day they left the mint. Where do you get your 1971-D Ike?
These were not in any of the two million mint sets made. How about a 1983-D dime? How
about a 1976-D DDO quarter? Well guess what, there aren't rolls of all this material. Try
coming up with a roll of '69 quarters that isn't from a mint set. Hell, try coming up with a
nice attractive '69 dime. This should be pretty easy if all the 1.8 million mint sets are still
around, and if they really were you'd still have a lot of trouble since they aren't all that easy.
Have you ever tried finding nice Lincolns from the mid to late '70's. There are still lots of
these mint sets and these can be found in rolls, thousands and thousands of rolls. The
roll coins are badly struck and the mint set coins are banged up. It really doesn't matter
how many mint sets still exist if they are nearly all banged up. Nor does it matter how many
rolls there are if the coins are mushy.
OK, still figure all these are just there for the picking. Try this one on for size: Every single
1968 cent in mint sets is damaged by carbon spots. OK, maybe I'm wrong on this, I've only
spot checked about 860 mint sets. All these coins had carbon spots on both sides except
three which had them on only one side.
Now let's get back down to the real world. In the real world most of the '68 mint sets have
been destroyed anyway. This may matter little for the cents since they are damaged and there
are BU rolls of these. What about '68 quarters though. There aren't rolls. It can be tough to
find singles of this coin and these invariably come from mint sets. The reason most of these
coins appear to be so common is because there is very little demand. Perhaps this will continue
indefinitely but if you ignore these coins you are assuring that they'll continue to get even scarcer.
You are also making a bet of sorts. You are betting at least that these coins are not collectible
and if that ever changes you can pick them up cheap should you desire.
Fine. I'm betting the other way. If you can give me a cogent argument of what makes me wrong
then I'd love to hear it so I can quit wasting my time.